Long Range AR-15 Build - Advice Needed

[padom]

...Or, simply buy this. You simply can't go wrong for the $800.







All the figuring out is done, it arrives with a 1/2MOA factory Match ammo accuracy guarantee, and an infinite shot barrel warrantee. I've had my (Model 6 Super Varminter, which this model just superseded within that past month or two) rifle for going on 7 years, and it's a solid performer.

Honestly, the basic rifle is not in need of any superior rigidity, and any rifle that will deliver 1/2MOA at 100yd will stay accurate all the way out to where the ammunition is giving up the ghost.

I can appreciate the drive to try one's hand at configuring the ideal rifle. It fulfills a need which has nothing to do with how the rounds arrive on the target. But just about every such project I have has been an exercise in overkill in the absolute excess. When the dust settles, and the cuss echoes die away from the painstaking concentration, there is still the moment when the rifle has to stand up to expectation.

...And it almost always does. Honestly, it's often a little bit of a letdown to realize that it simply fulfills the same promise as so many other like projects.

Well this Stag 15 Varminter goes a step further.

All that heartfelt component searching, painstaking assembly, and prototyping evolution has been done by a concern with resources none of us could begin to approach having.

This rifle does it well enough that I just bought a second one (to replace my original, which is now my Granddaughter's). I could have done a bunch of things differently to replace it; but in the end, I just bought another, because it just plain always works.

Final thoughts:

I've been in this accurate rifle process for going on three decades, and while I do come later to the AR arena, I do so with a lot of LR shooting under my belt. The rifle will only do so much for you beyond 300yd, and the environment out beyond that is simply chuckling at our efforts to impose control on its framework. It simply does not care that we have outfoxed our imagined foe, it does what it does regardless.

By all means, build your build, but wait until you've tried this rifle first. You may find, as I did, that more is not actually needed.

Greg

I would love to see this rifle shoot a 5x5 or 6x5 that has an agg of 0.5"....I can post multiple from multiple custom built rifles.


I also highly disagree with your blanket statement that any rifle that shoots 0.5" at 100yds is going to stay accurate out to any distance till the ammunition is "giving up the ghost." I have seen and tested quite a few barrels that shot 1/2moa at 100yds but had such poor shot to shot velocity swings that are only magnified and more evident as you walk the gun out past 100yds with vertical dispersion... You won't see that at 100yds, but will know it if your shooting everything over a quality chrono like the Labradar or Magnetospeed v3.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

So disagree away, P. Wouldn't be your first time.

Have you shot the Stag model 6?

Mine shot the Berger SW LR Nationals this past February. It was in my Granddaughter's hands, and she shot 518 out of 600. While that may not sound like much, it was the first formal NRA sanctioned HP match of her life. Even at dead last. I call that a good start. First time at 600yd; first time ever beyond 300yd.

"E------- S------- W C T MA 167-1 173-1 178-2 518-4"

The rifle works. For a factory rifle, sub $800, I think it works pretty well.

As for the agg(s), I'll see if I can oblige. Oh, Ye, of little faith....(LOL!)

Greg

PS, just picked up the Stripped lower for the new Stag Model 6 kit about 3 hours ago, it was a 160 mile round trip to make the transfer.. My shooting Buddy's going to help me put my first stripped lower together in the next few days. Then some time off for the Granddaughter' 21's birthday next week in Waikiki.

Wish us luck, she's got a date with some sharks and a cage.

 

[padom]

So disagree away, P. Wouldn't be your first time.

Have you shot the Stag model 6?

Mine shot the Berger SW LR Nationals this past February. It was in my Granddaughter's hands, and she shot 518 out of 600. While that may not sound like much, it was the first formal NRA sanctioned HP match of her life. Even at dead last. I call that a good start. First time at 600yd; first time ever beyond 300yd.

"ELENA SORCE W C T MA 167-1 173-1 178-2 518-4"

The rifle works. For a factory rifle, sub $800, I think it works pretty well.

As for the agg(s), I'll see if I can oblige. Oh, Ye, of little faith....(LOL!)

Greg

PS, just picked up the Stripped lower for the new Stag Model 6 kit about 3 hours ago, it was a 160 mile round trip to make the transfer.. My shooting Buddy's going to help me put my first stripped lower together in the next few days. Then some time off for the Granddaughter' 21's birthday next week in Waikiki.

Wish us luck, she's got a date with some sharks and a cage.

nope, wouldn't be my first time and this time its because I have never seen a Stag 6 shoot consistent 0.5moa. Show me those aggs..we've heard in numerous threads you love the stag model 6, gave your granddaughter one and bought a new one for yourself. I'll say it again, I've never seen the 0.5moa anywhere, not just on the Hide but anywhere consistently shooting that. Not saying it's a bad rifle for the money. But to say Bartlein, Krieger, rock, woa, Douglas custom AR's gain nothing on your stag 6 is bs. There is a reason CLE, WOA and Keystone build highly accurate custom AR's for the top shooters in the world. I'll say no more.

But I would agree your custom built AR's dont gain anything on your stag 6.

 

[jmill05]

Couple details on my build. Have an LMT lower with a noveske upper receiver with a 16”” WOA barrel. Absolutely wonderful. I am a big fan of the super dynamic trigger as well. Crisp and very predictable. In my experience, any of the big name barrel companies will produce results with the right load. My biggest tip - find a load with the 77gr TMK. I’ve taken the 16”” out to 950yds with consistency using the the TMKs at just under 2700. If you can get that bullet to group, you’re in business...

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Well, P, I can't fault your comments about things you haven't seen.

I have seen repeated 1/2MOA from the Stag 6 when I did my own testing to confirm the factory guarantee for 1/2MOA using factory Match ammo. The ammo used was PPU 75gr HPBT Match. I had purchased the rifle (my first AR) after seeing actual targets posted by the owner of my then LGS using his own Model 6 and the same ammo. He sold quite a few of those Model 6's in the following years, and none I ever heard about were ever faulted for failing to meet the factory's guaranteed criteria. There was nearly always one of them standing up behind his desk, awaiting the owner's pick-up, a very powerful marketing tool.

I don't mind your disbelief; just please desist inferring some dispute on my part with big name rifle makers whom I have never mentioned. I won't play, "Let's you and them fight...", which is what your commentary reads like as seen from this seat.

What I actually said was:

By all means, build your build, but wait until you've tried this rifle first. You may find, as I did, that more is not actually needed.

I will attempt to repeat the old rifle's performance with the new one. I may succeed, I may not, and I will report either conclusion.

Since we're doing this right, I'll broaden my approach to employ my competition 75gr HPBT Match handloads, since we're breaking new ground in your view, attempting to see 1/2MOA aggs from any rifle. any time. I will be shooting from a concrete bench and aftermarket Harris-style bipod, which is my current evaluation method. It'll be 6 x 5 aggs, using my own homemade targets.

I'll say it again, I've never seen the 0.5moa anywhere, not just on the Hide but anywhere consistently shooting that.

OK, the bar is set.

And finally, I apologize if my repeated proud Grampy comments about my Granddaughter's exploits with the Stag 6 has come across as a personal affront to your individual senses. Nothing of the kind was ever intended. She is well on her way to becoming one of my greatest sources of personal satisfaction. Please note that I have edited out her exact name from my previous post, since she is, at this time, still a minor.

You're a Moderator now, and I appreciate your reputation here as a highly respected contributor. But please, also respect that I was here for a good dozen years before your posted join date,

I was Frank's first moderator, and have been working at and reporting this factory rifle accuracy process since this site originated (for example, the Black Thoughts series of SH articles, specifically oriented toward factory rifle accuracy), continuing work from the early 1990's, when I was organizing a Statewide Marine Veterans' Competitive Shooting Program for the Marine Corps League Department for New Jersey, and navigating the process of helping us all figure out how to get some money's worth from what was affordable at the time.

Due to some site irregularities over he preceding decades, my current post count is actually conservatively underrepresented by approximately 24,000 posts.

And perhaps you've heard of the Carlos Hathcock Match, which was and remains an early offspring of that program. In that first one, I managed to put 40 rounds into about 1MOA at 300yd using a factory Remington 700VLS .223. I took first, and was then disqualified for shooting precisely twice the required number of shots. It was just a fairly regular round hole. If I hadn't told them, they would have never been able to count the shots anyway,. I was just having too much fun to stop at the time... Things were a bit more relaxed back then.

That's also where my emphasis on Savage rifles dates from. Our SH Ghost Dancer Rifle Project was triggered by Savage's decision to eliminate the .260 Rem from their product lineup. We hoped to convince them that the .260 Rem still had a future for competitive shooting back in 2001. I think that one went fairly well.
.
I did some pretty unorthodox approaches (like glassbedding a Norinco SKS and shooting it in 300yd HP N/M comps), and had to do it despite a plethora of naysayers who pontificated that the only way to success required big purchases and deep bank accounts. They sounded not just a little like you right now.

So please just give me a chance and work with me here. I have a long anticipated Hawaii trip to embark (celebrating the aforementioned Granddaughter's 21st Birth date) and conclude these coming weeks, but satisfying your concerns will be my first priority after that dust settles.

BTW, her other, other B'day present is a Mustang Convertible. So I think we can agree that this project is not being driven by poverty.

Greg

PS FYI, the entire cost for the basic rifle I will be testing, components, shipping, transfer, etc., less optics, mounts, BOB SLED, BAD lever, and bipod, is $662.64

The scope was purchased recently from Midway for $259.99. So, we're still running significantly under a grand for the big bits..

Even if the rifle fails by some small degree, it's still going to be performing damned nicely for a sub $1000 project.

 

[padom]

I never said that you mentioned specific rifle/barrel makers names. From my seat you are implying your Stag 6 is an equal rifle to those companies custom AR's based off your posts in numerous custom AR threads where members have asked for recommendation on CLE, WOA, Kreiger, Bartlein barrels and what shops to purchase them from. I have seen 100 or more examples of these barrel makers rifles shoot 0.5moa agg...I own a dozen of them myself and have targets for every one of them that shoot that. Again, Ive never seen anyone post those targets for a Stag. Im not talking about just you, Im talking about anyone. Hence my statements to your post. If this was the case, myself and everyone else on this forum and every competitor wouldnt be paying $2000-$3000 for custom Bartlein, Kreiger, Wilson, Douglas, WOA, etc. barreled AR15's when they could just grab a $800 Stag 6. Im sure there have been a few that were 1/2moa, yours very well may be able to shoot a 5x5 or 6x5 that has a 0.5moa agg (which is the only way I consider ANY rifle a 0.5moa rifle). But, I doubt every one that comes off the shelf can do that, I doubt even 1/2 can do that. Thats the point Im making. You want 100% guarantees of a tack driver you go to WOA, CLE, Keystone Accuracy and grab a Bartlein, Kreiger, Douglas, etc. and thats why the best shooters in the world do that.

Regardless what you think, Im not here to fight with you. But I am here to make sure people get the right answers to their questions and when they ask for build advice, thats exactly what Im here to give them based on facts and first hand experience with 100's of custom builds and targets to back that up.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Well OK, I appreciate the origin of your commentary. We've basically been trying to achieve the same results from mildly differing motivations. I think you should keep doing what you're positioned to do.

Not too long after I signed off from my last post, I very nearly had to live with that post as my last one, ever. My Wife was riding with me at the time. We were coming home from the 80 mile drive to Tucson for my twice weekly Cardiopulmonary Rehab session.

Luckily, I was about 15 minutes from home, and my friends at the VFW were gathered at our usual 5PM table. Long story short, speed limit (75) in the left lane passing another truck on a 10 mile uphill (2500ft ASL to 4500ft ASL), the 85mph rush hour train of speeders was on my butt, and I moved over to be courteous. Unfortunately, about 1/4 mi ahead, an 'Oversize Load" was doing about 15mph. No way back over, I firewalled the brakes. Managed, but Celia's electric scooter hit the mid-seat in the van hard enough to bend the handlebars.

Two rum and cokes later, I achieved some perspective. At 71, I have nothing left to prove. You wanna call me a liar, go for it; I could care less.

My memory is good enough for me, and if it isn't good enough for you, again; I could care less.

From this point onward in my future, my shooting will be done to my satisfaction only, and I will be doing what I can to bring Elena along in the exercise. It's a family thing, four generations in the making. My Mom and my Brothers, Me, My Daughter, Her kids. I hope it continues.

Anything beyond that is none of your business.

Have a great life, I will be otherwise engaged. I have actual friends with whom to occupy what time I have remaining. We'll be shooting every week, at least once, and we need to drive 50 miles each way to do it. Our numbers are increasing; it's my mission in life, now.

O/P enjoy your build, I really do hope you enjoy the results.

I may do something about 1/2moa and the Stag, I may not, Could be some real fun. No biggie, for me.

Greg

 

[padom]

So dramatic. Carry on, I make no efforts to know your business

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

FWIW, anyone using lead sled type rests, etc... are doing themselves a disservice. A good conventional front and rear rest or even 1-pc rest (WITHOUT the back stop behind the butt stock) is/will be much more conducive to precision. Not allowing the rifle to recoil as a lead sled does only fucks accuracy. Obviously the best test platform would be a clamping or even picatinny mounting railgun, ala what the AMU and many other branches use to test their ammo/uppers.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Yeah P, you're so right. i really do need to learn how to deal with those pesky near death experiences with more humility...

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Well, the Lower went together yesterday in about 1/2 hour, no unpleasant surprises, no whoopsies. The pleasant surprise, the Stag 2 stage trigger (2lb, 3.5lb) which is provided in the kit was fully assembled into two groups, the trigger/disconnecter, and hammer, with the springs already mounted. It's still a little stiff, the older one is a lot smoother, so I expect its identical sibling should wear in just as nicely.

Within another half hour, the entire rifle was completed, bipod, scope, mounts. Very simple assembly, I would hesitate to call it a build. The complete Upper comes, well, complete. I still need to level the reticle, and bore sight and zero the optics, but that will need to wait until our return from Hawaii. I will endeavor to find its accuracy potential, starting from shot #1, and the older rifle will be going through the same process as benchmark comparison. Testing will take place at 100 and 300yd, the farthest my club range allows.I think it would be really cool if they turned out to shoot as identical twins.

My Buddy, who made up six 80% lowers earlier this year, provided the special tools, and coached me through the lower assembly process. I was a bit surprised at how simple the whole process turned out to be. He had built a rifle intended to emulate the Stag 6, centered around a Stoner AR 24" 1:8" stainless bull barrel. I gave him a bunch of my 75gr HDY HPBT-Match magazine length F T/R handloads, and he was very happy with the Upper's accuracy, still under 100rd fired. When my rifle was complete, he told me I had one helluva nice rifle at an excellent deal, under $700 for the basic rifle hardware..

My stag 6 has a Mueller 8-32x44 Target dot/fine crosshair scope mounted in a pair of Nikon 30mm P-Series mounts. This allows space on the rail for mounting the base block for the Caldwell brass catcher A BAD Lever and a BOB SLED single feeding adapter complete the rifle for use in F T/R Comp. If LOP becomes an issue, the A2 stock will be replaced with a Luth AR MBA-1 stock.

Those who might be looking a the Stag site for purchase info will note that the Stag Model 6 Super Varminter is no longer in their product lineup. It has been replaced by the Stag 15 Varminter. It list at $1064, but is offered at the intro price of $799.99. The only visible difference is that the A2 stock is gone, replaced by the Magpul Fixed Rifle Stock. The Stag Two-Stage Trigger is still offered along with the Hogue handguard and pistol grip. While it would be rash to make estimates on its accuracy, I can't see any substantial changes that would drive any great differences. Also of note, I could not find any reference the former 1/2MOA accuracy guarantee residual on the Stag site.

I can appreciate that there would be some serious reservations about getting great accuracy and reliability from a factory rifle. I mean we all know that money talks, and lots of fine folks are providing very delightful bits and widgets that are undeniably helpful to building a true thoroughbred firearm.

My approach to the process begins at the other end, with one word remaining uppermost in reference to the process. The word is 'adequate'. I believe the basic Stoner design is a good one, and has been getting refined now for over a half century. For this more specialized application, there are obviously going to need to be some potent upgrades. To my mind, they should include a great barrel, and whatever accommodations are needed to mount it and make it operate.

I think that Stag did more than just swap out some parts. I think they tweaked and tuned the barrel specs until they do rather nicely for a 600yd MR F T/R rifle. The entire appearance and feel of the Stag 6 is one of smooth integration, and a monolithic solidity. I think this bears out in very good targets. My older Stag 6 is my mot accurate rifle at out to MR distances, and really, I have never expected the 223 to be a super contender beyond that.

How good, well that depends mostly on the ammunition, optics and, of course, the shooter. My handloads are apparently pretty dependable. The Mueller (I have three of them) does the job well enough that I do not need a spotter scope to see my bullet holes at 300yd. That leaves the shooter, and I am admittedly, well past my prime at 71. I've been warned that I'm developing cataracts, and some of the smaller street signs are getting rather hard to read while driving. I still think I'm up to the task within the limits of the equipment at hand, and have been assured by the VA that when the time comes, they can take care of the cataracts for me. So I'm still in the game, and hope to get the Stag 6(s) up to the task as well.

We'll see.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Back from Hawaii, the first range sessions should be occurring some time next week.

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

First session yesterday, with some initial rounds, some pressure testing, and still quite some distance to go to get to 1/2MOA. I could probably cite some excuses, but that's all they'd be, excuses. The rifle's best so far is about 3/4MOA. Is 1/2MOA achievable? Possibly, but it will probably require load development and several approaches to whether to continue development with the heavier bullets, or to do work with varmint-type loads.. For now, goal not met, and more work is needed, pursuing both approaches..

The facts are the facts.

I still have some PPU 75gr factory Match ammunition. It's several years old, but it's still worth a try. The other Stag 6 met the 1/2MOA gal with that ammo back when both were new.

Current MR load is 24.4gr Varget and 75gr HDY HPBT-Match. I will be exploring loads from 23.0gr on up.

For now, this project is priority one.

Greg

 

[padom]

First session yesterday, with some initial rounds, some pressure testing, and still quite some distance to go to get to 1/2MOA. I could probably cite some excuses, but that's all they'd be, excuses. The rifle's best so far is about 3/4MOA. Is 1/2MOA achievable? Possibly, but it will probably require load development and several approaches to whether to continue development with the heavier bullets, or to do work with varmint-type loads.. For now, goal not met, and more work is needed, pursuing both approaches..

The facts are the facts.

I still have some PPU 75gr factory Match ammunition. It's several years old, but it's still worth a try. The other Stag 6 met the 1/2MOA gal with that ammo back when both were new.

Current MR load is 24.4gr Varget and 75gr HDY HPBT-Match. I will be exploring loads from 23.0gr on up.

For now, this project is priority one.

Greg

While 75 BTHP have shot OK for me in my precision AR's, they have never been the most accurate and Ive never had great luck with Varget in my AR15's. H4895, 8208XBR, TAC and RE15 have all been better with 23.4g 8208XBR being my go to in almost every rifle. 77smk, 77cc and 73 ELD-M have all been insanely accurate.


Finally got out to bore sight and get a rough zero with my new 20" Bartlein Compass Lake 1-7.7 upper with Compass Lake chamber. No load development, just loaded up 23.3g 8208XBR with a Nosler 77cc on my Dillon XL650 to break it in and get a rough zero.

After putting 20rd downrange and getting a rough zero I decided to shoot a 5 shot group. All at 100yds. Not bad for this barrels first 5 shot group with zero load development. Pretty standard for a Bartlein AR barrel.

Tore it all down and shipped out the upper/lower/handguard and barrel to Code 1 Tactical yesterday morning to be cerakoted Snipers Grey with Graphite Black on the barrel.



[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","height":"851","width":"721","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/DPchah0.jpg"}[/IMG2]

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Very impressive, nice shooting.

I'll be loading up some 50gr NOS BT's for the next session, hopefully next Tuesday. Staying with Varget, probably near Nosler's max of 26.0gr. Hodgdon lists a starting load of 26.5gr and max of 27.5gr, so load development will be likely. Confusing? Yes, but the key will be pressure signs determination.

Greg

 

[mjphawk]

I want to thank everyone on here for the input which contributed to my build. I ended up with quite a different build than when I started this thread.

Below is the parts list I ultimately ended up going with:

• Krieger - 1:7.7 | 223 CLE Match | Match contour | 0.875 @ Gas Block | Bead Blasted | SS | M4 Ramps
• JP EnhancedBolt Assembly Completion Group
• JP Low-Mass Bolt Carrier Group, Small-Frame (.223), Stainless Steel, Polished Finish
• JP Stripped CTR-02 CNC Billet Upper/Lower Receiver Set - The fit and finish on these receivers is impressive and there is zero play when pinned together. The receiver came with JP microfit pins already installed
• JP MK III Modular Hand Guard 17.25" - I have been very impressed with this rail and the barrel nut system
• JP Adjustable Gas Block - I wanted the Superlative Arms but it wouldn't fit under the rail
• JP Lower Parts Kit
• JP Custom Centerless Ground and Polished Operating Spring - Not sure if this makes that much of a difference but I couldn't justify the silent capture spring
• Timney AR-15 Calvin Eliet 1.5lb Trigger - The trigger is fully adjustable and very nice for a target trigger
• SilencerCo ASR 7.62 Muzzle Brake 5/8x24 to mount my Specwar 762 - I had the barrel threaded in 5/8x24 rather than the standard 1/2x28 in order to minimize the amount of material that had to be taken off near the crown
• Magpul PRS Gen 3 Stock
• Ergo Tactical Delux Grip with Palm Shelf
• BOBRO Dual Lever Precision Optic Mount – 30mm Rings – 20 MOA - This mount impressed me. I had to move the scope back while doing load development to get a better fit on the gun and I had nearly zero shift in POI

I need to commend Compass Lake who did my barrel work. They were an absolute pleasure to work. In addition to headspacing the chamber with my bolt I sent to them, they also agreed to time my muzzle device for no extra charge.

So far I have only shot about 50 round through the gun, all with Lake City range brass and Varget. I fear this AR could threaten to retire my bolt gun it shoots so well. My best accuracy load with Varget so far seems to be 77gr TMK | 23.2gr Varget | Lake City 2017 once fired | CCI BR-4 | 2.260 COAL. The groups really start to open up when I go above about 23.2gr of Varget and I am only getting about 2,600fps which is significantly less than what QuickLoad indicates I should be getting with that load. I am going to need to play around with powders and try XBR, CFE223, RL15, H4895, IMR 4064, etc. to see if I can find something that will hold good groups and give me a little more velocity.

 

[padom]

Just shot my first OCW targets yesterday in the rain with my Compass Lake 20" 1-7.7 Bartlein. The group I posted above in my previous post was the first shots out of the gun just to break it in. Gonna do some load confirmation testing today. Very happy with my velocity numbers as well.

I shot 2 OCW tests both with 8208XBR in 1xLC and 205M.



73 ELD-M

77smk

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Looking at your targets, I believe I'm seeing a marked performance edge from the 73 ELD-M.

Second session with the new Stag yesterday, mostly testing loads built on 50gr NOS BT. Wind flags not used, the wind was pretty nonexistent. There were a number of other shooters working the range, and the good benches were taken, I had to use a desk and the positions were awkward. I don't think I got anywhere near a representative performance from the rifle, and two for two these past two weeks, I discovered that the bipod had loosened up considerably when I got ready to pack up.

I'm declaring the session a total waste and planning on repeating it all over again next Tuesday.

I did get a group or two that were 1/2MOA or so, but with the way my own performance was sucking so bad, I think that was more random luck than anything significant.

Two things stood out.

First, I'm removing the bipod and shooting from a rest, and will get there earlier next Tuesday so I can get to use a real bench.

Second, the 26.0gr Varget and 64gr Win Power Point Load was literally putting them into the very same hole. I would shoot a round, then shoot a second and be unable to see the second shot at all; so I would adjust the POI an inch away. fire a shot, and then a second, and again, not be able to see the second shot. I did this three times in a row. Confused and frustrated, I serviced the target and discovered that the bullet holes were just barely elongated enough to discern that there had been two impacts. That''s scary consistent. Technically, I had built a ballpark estimate, semi/minimalist/maybe deer load, and it's performing phenomenally.

I will definitely repeat testing that load next week.

My overall impression is that the rifle wants to shoot, but my own ineptitude is holding it back..., bigtime.

Pressure signs were moderate to high, with only the 27.5gr load showing fully flattened primers. No ejector swipes or severe firing pin cratering with any of the loads.

So I am building new test loads (originally NOS 50gr BT and 26.6gr, 26.9gr, 27.2gr, and 27.5gr of Varget, all compressed loads, all within the min/max range listed on the Hodgdon site). It's hard to make a meaningful assessment of yesterday, but it looked like the 26.6gr load may have been the best. Accordingly, I will be limiting testing to 27.0gr of Varget and below, and will explore as far down as far as 24.0gr of Varget, the Nosler published min load.

Nosler lists 24.0gr-26.0gr of Varget charge weight limits with 50gr bullet. Hodgdon lists 26.5gr to 27.5gr of Varget with 50gr Bullets, and Hornady doesn't even list Varget at all for that bullet weight. So it's really an exercise in reading pressure signs when trying to find meaningful charge limits. I strongly advise against doing this sort of load development without having years (in my own case, decades), of experience at reading pressure signs from fired cases.

The rifle cycled excellent once it had been lubed following last week's inaugural session.

So, on to next Tuesday.

My Buddy's 24" 1:8" AR Stoner heavy stainless barreled AR build had initial tests using my MR/600yd 75gr load, and it shot essentially identical to the original Stag 6. So when development determines the better loads, they will be shot with his rifle and both of the Stags to see how consistent performance is with three supposedly 'identical' rifles. I'm pretty confident that we will see only minimal performance variances across the three 24", 1:8" heavy barrels; and I'm expecting to be able to treat them as a generic set. Estimates of velocity for the 50gr loads suggest as much as 3350fps as an upper velocity limit for the 50gr bullets.

Greg

 

[bigjake83]

I want to thank everyone on here for the input which contributed to my build. I ended up with quite a different build than when I started this thread.

Below is the parts list I ultimately ended up going with:

• Krieger - 1:7.7 | 223 CLE Match | Match contour | 0.875 @ Gas Block | Bead Blasted | SS | M4 Ramps
• JP EnhancedBolt Assembly Completion Group
• JP Low-Mass Bolt Carrier Group, Small-Frame (.223), Stainless Steel, Polished Finish
• JP Stripped CTR-02 CNC Billet Upper/Lower Receiver Set - The fit and finish on these receivers is impressive and there is zero play when pinned together. The receiver came with JP microfit pins already installed
• JP MK III Modular Hand Guard 17.25" - I have been very impressed with this rail and the barrel nut system
• JP Adjustable Gas Block - I wanted the Superlative Arms but it wouldn't fit under the rail
• JP Lower Parts Kit
• JP Custom Centerless Ground and Polished Operating Spring - Not sure if this makes that much of a difference but I couldn't justify the silent capture spring
• Timney AR-15 Calvin Eliet 1.5lb Trigger - The trigger is fully adjustable and very nice for a target trigger
• SilencerCo ASR 7.62 Muzzle Brake 5/8x24 to mount my Specwar 762 - I had the barrel threaded in 5/8x24 rather than the standard 1/2x28 in order to minimize the amount of material that had to be taken off near the crown
• Magpul PRS Gen 3 Stock
• Ergo Tactical Delux Grip with Palm Shelf
• BOBRO Dual Lever Precision Optic Mount – 30mm Rings – 20 MOA - This mount impressed me. I had to move the scope back while doing load development to get a better fit on the gun and I had nearly zero shift in POI

I need to commend Compass Lake who did my barrel work. They were an absolute pleasure to work. In addition to headspacing the chamber with my bolt I sent to them, they also agreed to time my muzzle device for no extra charge.

So far I have only shot about 50 round through the gun, all with Lake City range brass and Varget. I fear this AR could threaten to retire my bolt gun it shoots so well. My best accuracy load with Varget so far seems to be 77gr TMK | 23.2gr Varget | Lake City 2017 once fired | CCI BR-4 | 2.260 COAL. The groups really start to open up when I go above about 23.2gr of Varget and I am only getting about 2,600fps which is significantly less than what QuickLoad indicates I should be getting with that load. I am going to need to play around with powders and try XBR, CFE223, RL15, H4895, IMR 4064, etc. to see if I can find something that will hold good groups and give me a little more velocity.

Outstanding Build Sir...

 

[bigjake83]

Just shot my first OCW targets yesterday in the rain with my Compass Lake 20" 1-7.7 Bartlein. The group I posted above in my previous post was the first shots out of the gun just to break it in. Gonna do some load confirmation testing today. Very happy with my velocity numbers as well.

I shot 2 OCW tests both with 8208XBR in 1xLC and 205M.



73 ELD-M

77smk

My .25 MOA Load for my CLE Bartlein is...77smk, LC Bass,, CCI BR4 Primer, and 23.5grs of Tac.

 

[JS624]

Check out the superlative arms adjustable gas block

 

[mjphawk]

Outstanding Build Sir...

Well thank you very much for all of your input during the process. I ended up with a meaningful different build from my original plan based on the input I received on this thread. I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond and provide their input.

Check out the superlative arms adjustable gas block

Not sure if this was directed to me but that's the gas block I really wanted to use but it wouldn't fit under my hand guard. Unfortunately I didn't realize that until after I though I had all of the parts together. I am really glad I upgraded to the JP hand guard so it was worth the trade off in my book.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I built Loctite red to bed the barrel to the receiver when I assembled my 16" lightweight upper. It was in accordance with the Kuhnhausen book, which I was following religiously for my first build. In retro, I wouldn't do it again since it precludes reasonably simple disassembly. But in truth, I'm unlikely to shoot the upper enough t require a barrel replacement anyway So it's not really a big issue this time. In teh future, blue, and sparingly; I'm just trying to establish/maintain a parts clearance relationship.

BTW, I wouldn't ever want to spill the green Loctite while applying it. Makes a bunch of a mess. Don't need to ask me how I know...

BTW, anyone happen to know of a solvent for uncured Loctite green?

Greg

PS, in answer to my own question, Methylene Chloride solvent

 

[Greg Langelius *]

FWIW, finally got out to do some load testing today using the Nosler 50gr Ballistic Tip out of the new Stag. Found the load but only had 5 rounds made up. It shot a group right at 0.5 In. One group does not make an announcement. Will make up more and try it again next time out.

Nosler shows 26.0gr as max for the bullet, Hodgdon shows 26.5gr min, 27.5gr max for 50gr bullets. The rifle especially likes 26.6gr. No swipes, some roundness remains on primer edges. I'm gonna run with it.

Retested 600yd 75gr load, HDY 75gr HPBT-Match, 24.4gr of Varget. This load is not shooting well in the Stag, will redevelop it. Hodgdon shows 24.6 max, will work down.

Greg

 

[10ring1]

Not sure where ur from Greg but that Varget load just could be seasonally accurate. I noticed Varget is very temp sensitive esp in colder weather. I developed loads for a Rem 5r 308 in the summer that shot very well but group size doubled im temps under 50 degrees. Ymmv

 

[padom]

Not sure where ur from Greg but that Varget load just could be seasonally accurate. I noticed Varget is very temp sensitive esp in colder weather. I developed loads for a Rem 5r 308 in the summer that shot very well but group size doubled im temps under 50 degrees. Ymmv

Varget is actually very temp insensitive and is why a ton of shooters use it. From 25F-140F Varget only has a 46fps swing. Your issues come down to load development, not Varget being temp sensitive.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I agree. Hodgdon's 'Extreme' powders, of which Varget was the first, all exhibit better temperature insensitivity in my rifles.

Not perfect, but better; and that's a large part of why I use it. I also use H-4350, H-4198, and H-4831SC; because I feel they have less velocity drift with temperature extremes. I may also replace my IMR-4064 Garand load with Varget.

I use Varget in the .223 because smaller cartridges can be finicky about accuracy nodes, and .1gr to .2gr can put a load under or over the sweet spot when temps swing bigtime. Varget can help stabilize narrow nodes in smaller cases.

I came to SE Arizona early last Summer from way Upstate NY. Back there. I was 60 miles from Canada, now I'm 50 miles from Mexico. On basic principle, I'm reconfirming/reworking my most frequently used loads. These days, a lot of my shooting is .223/5.56. I have two bolt .223's, and the two Stag Model 6's, as well as another pair of Uppers, all chambered in 5.56.

Yesterday, I finally got back to the range after 3 weeks where holidays (Marine Corps Birthday, Veterans' Day, and Thanksgiving) largely kept me away. The new Stag 6 Kit rifle is finally starting to put them together. I found a pretty good 50gr load yesterday, and also found I need to rework my 75gr load.

It just never ends, thankfully....

Greg

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Well, the weather is finally turning. Temps getting below freezing at Dawn, saw some white stuff in the back yard Wednesday (just a flurry with accumulation that was gone in half an hour). It had to come sometime. Maybe the rattlesnakes at the range will be otherwise engaged...

I have Ladder Loads for the 75gr (23.4gr-24.4gr of Varget in .2gr increments, 10 each), and a bunch of 50gr loads (26.6gr of Varget) to test fire with the better charge weight from the last session. I'm hoping to confirm the 50gr load, and find something that shoots tight with the 75's. The saved rounds from the prior session will get to ride out of the 16" Uppers, maybe they'll be a better match for them.

Also found some issues with the way my rest and the Stag;s handguard interact that should allow better groups. Who knows...?. This may just boil down to using some talcum.

If I get out, it'll likely be the last time before Spring. As before, back in NY, my reloading setup is in an unheated garage. This may all turn out for the better, as the winds tend to back down some when it's cooler. I hope...

Greg

PS, any further outcomes will be carried in a new topic after this.