Long Range Ethics

[pewpewfever]

I’ve been thinking about when it becomes unethical to use a given round/BC beyond a given range. For example, at what point does .223 become spray and pray? And does it depend on skill, type of target (commercial range, hunting, combat), conditions (wind, rain, light) or other factors? If so, I doubt there’s much agreement as to the maximum range at which a given round should be used, because people start out with different assumptions. But I’ll ask specifically for a beginner in a PRS match shooting at metal targets out to 1200 yards on a commercial range in decent conditions, would it possibly be unethical to use a .223 beyond a certain range? What about a gas gun match out to 700 yards max? Is there a level of wind or other conditions at which the beginner should drop out of the match or decline to shoot at targets beyond a certain range? Thanks.

 

[Badfinger]

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

You're going to have to define ethics, as except in the situation of "hunting" I don't see how those other examples have moral implications related to cartridge use. I guess you could include "combat" but not really on board there either. Unless you include hurt feelings.................

 

[RTH1800]

Discussing ethics of shooting a steel target? Paper target? Really?

 

[pewpewfever]

In a match, if unintentional discharge downrange is a match DQ, then it would seem to follow that a beginner shouldn’t be firing .223 at a 1000 yard target on top of a hill with just a small berm behind it.

In combat, wounding is preferable to killing, but would be unethical in hunting. But in a match, you must avoid shooting at the sky. You must be on target before advancing the bolt. But is that even enough for a beginner shooting .223 at ranges beyond its capabilities?

 

[Fig]

But I’ll ask specifically for a beginner in a PRS match shooting at metal targets out to 1200 yards on a commercial range in decent conditions, would it possibly be unethical to use a .223 beyond a certain range? What about a gas gun match out to 700 yards max? Is there a level of wind or other conditions at which the beginner should drop out of the match or decline to shoot at targets beyond a certain range? Thanks.

Shooting steel targets my "ethics" cease completely at the muzzle. I'll shoot paper patch WC or RN out to 1000 yds without thinking about it. I'll shoot round musket balls at AR500 without a blink (with a frizzle pan even!). I don't know what those BCs are, but VLDs they ain't!

I don't think you mean "ethics" at all. I think you are asking if it's "safe", and that entirely depends on the rifle, the range, and your ability. BC is almost not a part of that. That's just how well the bullet flies. There is nothing unsafe about missing a target on an appropriate rifle range. If there is something wrong with the range, or the rifle, or your ability it could be unsafe, but in terms of "ethics" the only correct "ethic" is not to take any risks or do things that are unsafe with a firearm on a range.

I've shot a 1,500 yard target (at a match) when my rifle/cartridge goes transonic @ 1,375. I held the exact same on ten shots, and they landed around the target at random with 0 hits. In my experience the bullets I was shooting do poorly below supersonic speeds. It basically becomes a musket when it falls below those speeds. So, while it's a terrible tool for mile shooting, there is nothing "unethical" about it as long as it's safe to miss the steel with those rainbows I'm launching...

Doing something unsafe with a firearm is always unethical.

 

[RTH1800]

Caliber has nothing to do with range safety in the way you describe. No range is safe with targets on hill with no backstop.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I’ve been thinking about when it becomes unethical to use a given round/BC beyond a given range. For example, at what point does .223 become spray and pray? And does it depend on skill, type of target (commercial range, hunting, combat), conditions (wind, rain, light) or other factors? If so, I doubt there’s much agreement as to the maximum range at which a given round should be used, because people start out with different assumptions. But I’ll ask specifically for a beginner in a PRS match shooting at metal targets out to 1200 yards on a commercial range in decent conditions, would it possibly be unethical to use a .223 beyond a certain range? What about a gas gun match out to 700 yards max? Is there a level of wind or other conditions at which the beginner should drop out of the match or decline to shoot at targets beyond a certain range? Thanks.

Can I ask why specifically You are interested in this?
"Ethical" discussions on shooting are usually (and correctly) reserved for talking about having enough gun to make sure your shot kills the animal you want to kill, at the range you are shooting at, quickly and with minimal suffering (DRT if at all possible).

If you have questions about a specific range, it would help if you could provide like the name of the shooting range, or some pictures of what you are talking about etc. A "Commercial range" is probably not going to stay in business long if they have an inherently unsafe shooting range.

If you are a beginner, you shouldn't be going to a PRS match till you have verified your equipment and have decent data on your particular load and know that you can hit the expected ranges accurately.

A .223 can shoot to 1000 or 1200 yards if the rifle and load is setup for it. Most average .223 semi auto rifles with short barrels probably won't get close accurately, but put a long heavy target barrel and some good projectiles together and you can probably do it repeatedly. Most however would probably go with something in a 6mm or 6.5mm because it's going to be a lot easier and probably give you a higher score, unless the match is one that specifically calls for a .223 rifle.

 

[Fig]

It would be like shooting skeet with a .410. It can certainly be done and people do it, but it's a great deal more difficult than with a 12ga and skeet loads.

 

[Chris399]

I’ve run more 100 straights with a 410 in competition than with the 12 ga. But that’s what I used to do 5 days a week.

Here’s what pissed me off Wednesday at the range. I sighted in my gun on a new load at 100 and then wanted to move down to the 300 yd subMOA steel. I was too lazy to drive down and hang a target. There’s one guy there shooting his short barrel AR. I asked which target he was shooting and it’s the the one I wanted to shoot. I asked if when he took a break would he mind if I shot 5 rounds at it just to confirm my dope. He looked at me as if I just asked to F his wife and said no he was shooting it. I watched him miss ten in a row so I went ahead and F’d his wife.

So here’s where I am. If you don’t have the skill or knowledge to shoot a smaller caliber at longer targets back up a few hundred and become more proficient instead of possibly wasting other people’s time. Besides you’re not learning anything.

Chris399

 

[pewpewfever]

If ethics is defined purely based on caliber being sufficient to take down game within a given range, then I’m talking about safety, not ethics.

As for the .410 comparison, a .410 pellet isn’t going to travel up to 3 miles if it goes over the top. I think the range where I typically compete has a long safe zone on the other side of the hill, but I don’t know if it’s that many miles.

 

[308pirate]

Unless you own the range, you're concerning yourself with things that don't concern you.

 

[brianf]

im guessing you can look at applied ballistic software and look for a theoretical hit %.

in theory the term ethical will be a numerical percentage determined by the user, or some governing body.

example:

after that analysis if YOU believe that a 50% (just for a number) hit probability on "X" target size at "X" distance with "X" wind is still ethical (not spray and pray), then look at your skill set and see if you are able to accomplish.

if you are only capable of matching the analysis 50% of the time then you are only connecting with 1 out of 4 shots / 25%.

if YOU consider a 25% hit ratio good to go then its not spray and pray to YOU, but it may be TO OTHERS.

personally with that example, unless i had the target on the bottom of a very large hill or huge backstop with adequate danger space behind (1 mile +), its unethical to me

 

[footsteps]

My long range ethics are as follows. Try not to hit the neighbors livestock or mine, I only shoot on the farm.

 

[Fig]

If ethics is defined purely based on caliber being sufficient to take down game within a given range, then I’m talking about safety, not ethics.

As for the .410 comparison, a .410 pellet isn’t going to travel up to 3 miles if it goes over the top. I think the range where I typically compete has a long safe zone on the other side of the hill, but I don’t know if it’s that many miles.

"Ethics", definitionaly, is a moral philosophy...ones sense of right vs wrong. It does apply to hunting, but also many other aspects of firearms and lethal force for sure. I think there's 99.99% agreement on the ethics of gun safety. It is in the application of those ethics where there could be some divergence. Outside of the rules of firearm safety not everyone is going to agree that a certain shot is "unsafe", but I think we can agree that if you cannot be sure of where the bullet is going or what the backstop is, then that would fall under being unsafe.

 

[Fig]

My long range ethics are as follows. Try not to hit the neighbors livestock or mine, I only shoot on the farm.

That's an expensive miss!

 

[footsteps]

Hell yeah he runs some highend steers...

 

[natdscott]

I’ve been thinking about when it becomes unethical to use a given round/BC beyond a given range. For example, at what point does .223 become spray and pray? And does it depend on skill, type of target (commercial range, hunting, combat), conditions (wind, rain, light) or other factors? If so, I doubt there’s much agreement as to the maximum range at which a given round should be used, because people start out with different assumptions. But I’ll ask specifically for a beginner in a PRS match shooting at metal targets out to 1200 yards on a commercial range in decent conditions, would it possibly be unethical to use a .223 beyond a certain range? What about a gas gun match out to 700 yards max? Is there a level of wind or other conditions at which the beginner should drop out of the match or decline to shoot at targets beyond a certain range? Thanks.

Addressing your question directly...

.223 in a 20" gas gun (though, let's be frank, the AR is the only accessible one accurate enough to bother with) is pretty effective at 900-1,000 yards if it was set up carefully to BE effective. That last 100 yards is a bitch of a walk though, even if it is setup well. If you had a 26" tube, that is WORLDS different, because at that range, every 25 fps is CRITICAL.

The other thing most guys won't agree to do is load singly, with 90's, and a barrel and chamber specifically for it.

Facts
--If you want to shoot an AR from magazine, then 700, or maybe 800 yards, is gonna be about it.
--If you want to have a "tactical" AR with anything less than a 20" tube [like God intended], then maybe 600 yards is about it, or way less.
--If you dislike the idea of spec'ing out an upper and sourcing a barrel that's going to be in the $1,500 range, then maybe 500 yards is it.
--If you shoot mostly bolt guns and your shotty, and plan to just stroll out there with a new AR and shoot 3/4 Minute groups, well...good luck with that. They don't drive the same way.
--If you think using high-quality load components (Lapua, Sierra, JLK, Berger, et al.) is a waste in an AR, then anything beyond 300 yards is not for you, and just assume that all AR's are 3/4 Minute or worse, because you'll never see the light.


Now for BOLT rifles with 26-30" barrels, I don;t know that you gain THAT much long range precision with them, but I do know that it's way easier to get them to shoot well, and you gain a LOT of speed. In certain areas, the .223 "ELR" rifle would probably be pretty effective to 1,200 yards, more if you have a bullet that will transition.


-Nate

 

[W54/XM-388]

.223 in a 20" gas gun (though, let's be frank, the AR is the only accessible one accurate enough to bother with) is pretty effective at 900-1,000 yards if it was set up carefully to BE effective. That last 100 yards is a bitch of a walk though, even if it is setup well. If you had a 26" tube, that is WORLDS different, because at that range, every 25 fps is CRITICAL.
The other thing most guys won't agree to do is load singly, with 90's, and a barrel and chamber specifically for it.

If you are going the AR route, you can do a 24" medium target barrel and still wind up at a reasonable weight.

 

[pmclaine]

Discussing ethics of shooting a steel target? Paper target? Really?

Hey in this day and age they have feelings.....

of course I think they are more upset by a miss so.........

 

[natdscott]

If you are going the AR route, you can do a 24" medium target barrel and still wind up at a reasonable weight.

If you intend on-purpose unrestricted-like to shoot an AR beyond 600 yards, weight won't (shouldn't) matter much. AR's have a head start on weight anyway.

I would not (NOT) go less than 26" on a long range AR if I weren't required to stay at 20"...which I am.

 

[Steel head]

I’m going to my safe space!

 

[natdscott]

I’m going to my safe space!

Clarify.

 

[demolitionman]

I’m going to my safe space!

but what about your danger space?

 

[Dthomas3523]

In a match, if unintentional discharge downrange is a match DQ, then it would seem to follow that a beginner shouldn’t be firing .223 at a 1000 yard target on top of a hill with just a small berm behind it.

In combat, wounding is preferable to killing, but would be unethical in hunting. But in a match, you must avoid shooting at the sky. You must be on target before advancing the bolt. But is that even enough for a beginner shooting .223 at ranges beyond its capabilities?

Depends on the size of the backstop, the shooters dope, and their ability.

Mainly dope. Most ranges where there the berms are small (and even some that have large berms) require shooters to go through a short safety course and/or confirm their dope looks close on paper.

With even free apps being so good these days, you’re going to be very close with dope. Unless you spin your turret to the next revolution without realizing it, you’ll be pretty damn close.

 

[hafejd30]

I’ve been thinking about when it becomes unethical to use a given round/BC beyond a given range. For example, at what point does .223 become spray and pray? And does it depend on skill, type of target (commercial range, hunting, combat), conditions (wind, rain, light) or other factors? If so, I doubt there’s much agreement as to the maximum range at which a given round should be used, because people start out with different assumptions. But I’ll ask specifically for a beginner in a PRS match shooting at metal targets out to 1200 yards on a commercial range in decent conditions, would it possibly be unethical to use a .223 beyond a certain range? What about a gas gun match out to 700 yards max? Is there a level of wind or other conditions at which the beginner should drop out of the match or decline to shoot at targets beyond a certain range? Thanks.

I think “logical” would be a better choice of words than ethical as to what I’m assuming your asking. IMO ethics play heavily into hunting but not really anything else

Best part of shooting steel/paper is pushing the limits

 

[footsteps]

I need a partisapation trophy ?

 

[_Windrider_]

In a match, if unintentional discharge downrange is a match DQ, then it would seem to follow that a beginner shouldn’t be firing .223 at a 1000 yard target on top of a hill with just a small berm behind it.

In combat, wounding is preferable to killing, but would be unethical in hunting. But in a match, you must avoid shooting at the sky. You must be on target before advancing the bolt. But is that even enough for a beginner shooting .223 at ranges beyond its capabilities?

Wrong. In combat your sole purpose is kill the enemy or to put it ethically, to stop the threat.

 

[THEIS]

Wrong. In combat your sole purpose is kill the enemy or to put it ethically, to stop the threat.

Hi,

Yes, contrary to video game belief....A wounded person CAN shoot back. Lot of people killed by a wounded person.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[308pirate]

In combat, wounding is preferable to killing

LOL

I don't know anything about the Army but I can assure you that if we hit an enemy sub with one of our torpedoes, everyone in that boat was pretty much guaranteed dead.

 

[_Windrider_]

LOL

I don't know anything about the Army but I can assure you that if we hit an enemy sub with one of our torpedoes, everyone in that boat was pretty much guaranteed dead.

You were a bubblehead?

 

[THEIS]

You were a bubblehead?

Hi,

Can you NOT tell.....????

100 Men go down, 50 Couples come up...LOLOL

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[308pirate]

You were a bubblehead?

Nope, SWO.

We had two of these launchers

And two of these

On a Perry-class frigate

Anyway the wounding shit just won't go away. Where in the hell did that come from anyway?

 

[_Windrider_]

Nope, SWO.

We had two of these launchers

And two of these

On a Perry-class firgate

Ah. Roger that. I started on p3’s. Our torpedoes made people dead too. And if that didn’t work the depth charges or Mavericks or shrikes might work.

 

[_Windrider_]

Hi,

Can you NOT tell.....????

100 Men go down, 50 Couples come up...LOLOL

Sincerely,
Theis

?????

 

[pewpewfever]

I’ve no military experience, but an artillery man reported they were trained to wound a given percentage of an enemy force because it neutralizes the force with less ammo as the unwounded have to stop and aid the wounded.

 

[308pirate]

I’ve no military experience, but an artillery man reported they were trained to wound a given percentage of an enemy force because it neutralizes the force with less ammo as the unwounded have to stop and aid the wounded.

You were fed bullshit. Artillerymen (and Navy gunners) never see their enemy on a fire mission. They fire on a grid coordinate for a set number of rounds and then stop. They can't tell who they're wounding or who they're killing and I doubt their forward observer gives a fuck about the difference.

That stupid shit has never, ever, been true.

There's more to it but that's all you need to know.

 

[_Windrider_]

You were fed bullshit

A lot of it. The people we fight use the wounded as shields

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’ve no military experience, but an artillery man reported they were trained to wound a given percentage of an enemy force because it neutralizes the force with less ammo as the unwounded have to stop and aid the wounded.

That’s some precision artillery they can get close enough to wound but not kill......

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Arty version of this.....



Sincerely,
Theis

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Ok so for some reason I did not search before I replied....but now I understand a little more in regards to OP statements.

Go easy guys.....we need more new shooters coming into the midst.

Sincerely,
Theis

My BF and I shot our first longe range match recently.

 

[_Windrider_]

This train is off the rails.

 

[1500varmint]

This train is off the rails.

This is a thread on the "ethics" of target shooting steel plates at long distances.

It started off the friggin rails...

 

[Dthomas3523]

Hi,

Ok so for some reason I did not search before I replied....but now I understand a little more in regards to OP statements.

Go easy guys.....we need more new shooters coming into the midst.

Sincerely,
Theis

Nope. Equal opportunity hazing here.

 

[308pirate]

Nope. Equal opportunity hazing here.

+1

Welcome to Plebe Summer

 

[308pirate]

Hi,

Arty version of this.....



Sincerely,
Theis

Mister Rate was one bad motherfucker

 

[pewpewfever]

This is a thread on the "ethics" of target shooting steel plates at long distances.

It started off the friggin rails...

Well this IS the forum section for stupid questions.

 

[Jammer Six]

In combat, wounding is preferable to killing,

Urban legend.

 

[Matches Malone]

I’ve been thinking about when it becomes unethical to use a given round/BC beyond a given range. For example, at what point does .223 become spray and pray? And does it depend on skill, type of target (commercial range, hunting, combat), conditions (wind, rain, light) or other factors? If so, I doubt there’s much agreement as to the maximum range at which a given round should be used, because people start out with different assumptions. But I’ll ask specifically for a beginner in a PRS match shooting at metal targets out to 1200 yards on a commercial range in decent conditions, would it possibly be unethical to use a .223 beyond a certain range? What about a gas gun match out to 700 yards max? Is there a level of wind or other conditions at which the beginner should drop out of the match or decline to shoot at targets beyond a certain range? Thanks.

I don’t think ethics is the word of use for maxing out a bullet coming out of a particular rigs potential.

I DO think that the performance is about the right component combo to maximize the efficiency of said cartridge, PLUS the shooters ability to science their shit down right if they want to be successful. This is all within reason. So no .223 rems at KO2M.
A match maxed at 1000y or something, there is potential for success. Less potential, but none the less.

 

[Matches Malone]

I’ve no military experience, but an artillery man reported they were trained to wound a given percentage of an enemy force because it neutralizes the force with less ammo as the unwounded have to stop and aid the wounded.

Tell your arty friend he’s a POG....and a boot. The closest killing he’s seen is sitting behind hesco in the coc, looking through a gboss or pgss of a man-dress wearing habib ass ramming a goat until a fire mission is called.