Long Range Techniques

#2
Re: Long Range Techniques

Tubb's book on high power shooting is a good primer. Honestly, you'll probably learn more in a precision rifle class than from any book. It's more a matter of getting your hands dirty and practicing. With that said, precision shooting involves more book smarts than normal tactical shooting, so it's not a bad idea to pick up a decent book on load development (Zedicker's book comes to mind) and another on precision techniques (ie reading wind, ranging and using optics).
 
#3
Re: Long Range Techniques

The complete 50 caliber sniper course-- Hard target interdiction by Dean Michaelis. Even though you may not shoot the 50 BMG. There are good info in it.

IMHO, long range shooting involves basic fundamental of marksmanship applies with lots, lots and lots of time doing the shooting. That's the only way to learn how to read the wind. You need some knowledge of internal, external ballistics, trajectory of your bullet, your ability, and last but not least is reading the wind. You can shoot the same distance everytime, but with the changing winds, what you hit today, may not hit the target the next day.
 
#5
Re: Long Range Techniques

I have this and would not recommend to the novice it is very heavy reading and think that most of the other manuals will be of more help.
It is a good read however so I do agree with you DesertHK that there is good info
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The complete 50 caliber sniper course-- Hard target interdiction by Dean Michaelis. Even though you may not shoot the 50 BMG. There are good info in it.

IMHO, long range shooting involves basic fundamental of marksmanship applies with lots, lots and lots of time doing the shooting. That's the only way to learn how to read the wind. You need some knowledge of internal, external ballistics, trajectory of your bullet, your ability, and last but not least is reading the wind. You can shoot the same distance everytime, but with the changing winds, what you hit today, may not hit the target the next day. </div></div>
 
#6
Re: Long Range Techniques

hey guys check out the indiana training thread in the firearms training forum. there is a crackpot over there claiming to be someone tellin folks that trigger control and practice on a 100 yard range are all you need to be a long range rifleman. halarious, i know. go check it out.
 
#7
Re: Long Range Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hey guys check out the indiana training thread in the firearms training forum. there is a crackpot over there claiming to be someone tellin folks that trigger control and practice on a 100 yard range are all you need to be a long range rifleman. halarious, i know. go check it out. </div></div>That's not what he said, and you know it. Ignoring the fundamentals is not something that I would want my training staff to advocate; nor is playing fast and loose in reporting what others say. I'm not reporting you to the Mods, just letting you set an example for anyone you may represent.
 
#9
Re: Long Range Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dude is looking for "longrange" training. this guy offers tiny targets at 100 yards. hmmm. whats wrong with this picture? </div></div>What's wrong is that we have moderators whose job it is to police this site. When junior members play policeman, but contribute nothing of value to the discussion in the thread, then they have no credibility with which to call others 'wannabees'.
 
#10
Re: Long Range Techniques

i bet the moderators would agree that 100 yards does not qualify as long range. were you the guy offering 200 yards in michigan? i guess that makes you twice the longrange marksman then the other guy. haha
 
#11
Re: Long Range Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i bet the moderators would agree that 100 yards does not qualify as long range. were you the guy offering 200 yards in michigan? i guess that makes you twice the longrange marksman then the other guy. haha </div></div>
 
#14
Re: Long Range Techniques

i read everything i could find for more than 20 years! but let me tell you, when i stepped out on that 1000 yard range, i realized there is no substitute for actually shooting it. and if i'd known what i know now, i'd went to a real school sooner! good luck my brother!
 
#15
Re: Long Range Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i'd went to a real school sooner!</div></div>Now that's credible advice.
laugh.gif
 
#16
Re: Long Range Techniques

RemmyMan,
Start Here and stay here.
If there is any info out there in bookform that aint on this site it is only a matter of time until someone posts it here.

Plus, when was the last time a book talked shit to you.

It's better in the Hide

Chef
 
#17
Re: Long Range Techniques

what constitutes as a junior member? are you trying to say that my posting status number being lower than yours or that other guy's somehow lessens the validity of my information? my post numbers are low because i only post when i get into people like this telling newer shooters crap like "if you practice at 100 yards you will be a long range marksman".
if the instructors at rifles only were to hear this they would light this guy up! regardless of how much keyboard sniping experience he has.
thanks. hope this has helped you to understand. 100 yards is NOT long range.
 
#18
Re: Long Range Techniques

To argue with people who know what they are talking about one must refute their premise. But to argue with fools it is sufficient to state facts:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my post numbers are low because i only post when i get into people like this telling newer shooters crap like "if you practice at 100 yards you will be a long range marksman".</div></div> Nope:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">winchester spf</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">xd sold</div></div>Your post numbers are low because you haven't sold a lot of stuff yet. So far, on this site you have been little more than a Troll. If you are not willing to listen to SterlingShooter, or to learn, then go away.
 
#19
Re: Long Range Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what constitutes as a junior member? are you trying to say that my posting status number being lower than yours or that other guy's somehow lessens the validity of my information? my post numbers are low because i only post when i get into people like this telling newer shooters crap like "if you practice at 100 yards you will be a long range marksman".
if the instructors at rifles only were to hear this they would light this guy up! regardless of how much keyboard sniping experience he has.
thanks. hope this has helped you to understand. 100 yards is NOT long range.</div></div>

Marksmanship is not defined by distance, it is defined by perfection. The skills essential to good outdoor shooting, at any distance, are the same. Learning how to shoot can be accomplished at relatively short distances. And, for anyone interested in LR, first developing skills at SR will help the shooter begin to properly analyze shot placement, without the possible confusion wind could impose from practice at greater distance. In other words, sometimes an inexperienced shooter will adjust for non-existent wind when position or perhaps trigger control was actually at fault. Shooting at distances where wind is not a factor exposes the real source of error to bring about a proper respect for the importance of the basics.

LR is not esoteric, it's only more demanding of perfection, mostly, regarding wind strategies, once basic marksmanship skills have been mastered. My 600 yard match rifle scores are about 3 percent higher than my 1000 yard match rifle scores, when conditions/equipment are similar. What causes the divergence in score, probably, the angularity of something less than perfect sight alignment, sight picture inconsistency, and wind not countered correctly.
 
#20
Re: Long Range Techniques

Sterling Shooter
Your to modest, with scores only 3% off of your 600yd scores I would say your doing most everything correctly. There still has to be a few % in there for the accuracy difference between the load and the rifle from 600 to 1000yds not even taking into consideration the outside elements and maybe you.

Many a young shooter could learn a lot from listening to older shooters with your background.

Books are fine but the way to learn to shoot is with a good instructor or by shooting many many thousand rounds down range and learning from your mistakes like I did.

My son went to sniper school and learned in a couple of months what it took me years and many rifle barrels to learn on my own.
 
#21
Re: Long Range Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: raptor99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling Shooter
Your to modest, with scores only 3% off of your 600yd scores I would say your doing most everything correctly. There still has to be a few % in there for the accuracy difference between the load and the rifle from 600 to 1000yds not even taking into consideration the outside elements and maybe you.

</div></div>
Thanks for the complement.

The biggest problem I have at 1000, since renewing my use of the
Service Rifle at that distance, is holding elevation with the post front sight, I have a hard time understanding when the sight/target relationship is consistent; therefore, I try to handload to perfection to at least have ammunition that can hold in there.
 
#22
Re: Long Range Techniques

Charles,
My son shot HP for a couple of years and I was amazed at the groups he was geting when he was shooting the AR at 600yds with open sights an a sling.

I don't know how you even do it at 1000yds with open sights. When I was playing around with my M1A, shooting at 600yds, with opens I could hardly see the IPSC target I was shooting at!!!!
 
#23
Re: Long Range Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Marksmanship is not defined by distance, it is defined by perfection. </div></div>

Well said SS.
 
#24
Re: Long Range Techniques

...and consistency. If you can hit the X at 500 yards only 10% of the time, you've got work to do.

Precision + Consistency = Marksmanship
 
#25
Re: Long Range Techniques

like i said girls, i'm done with this. you are right and i am wrong. it is true that shooting at 100 IS the same as shooting at 600 plus. this is true because you said so. and we are to believe this because you have proclaimed your superiority. please forgive me for not recognizing. we are all longrange marksman. its true, everyone shoots 100. please accept my humble appologies. now i am off to find my next self proclaimed expert spewing stupidity. and if one reads much here he will find many target's of opportunity.
 
#26
Re: Long Range Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">like i said girls, i'm done with this. you are right and i am wrong. it is true that shooting at 100 IS the same as shooting at 600 plus. this is true because you said so. and we are to believe this because you have proclaimed your superiority. please forgive me for not recognizing. we are all longrange marksman. its true, everyone shoots 100. please accept my humble appologies. now i am off to find my next self proclaimed expert spewing stupidity. and if one reads much here he will find many target's of opportunity. </div></div>

I'm certain you'll discover, eventually, with an attitude adjustment, that all shooting is, indeed, the same. LR is not different from SR, just more demanding. Because your own perspective of LR was fantasy, until, apparently, an enlightening LR course, you've projected onto others posting here that they must be as delusional as you were/are. What you didn't know is that there are folks here with awesome shooting credentials, from virtually every shooting arena. There are folks here who, literally, wrote the book on good shooting. There are folks here who train occupational/military shooters. In other words, you didn't know that there are folks here that know most everything there is to know about good shooting. You've insulted these folks, while making yourself look very foolish. Now, you're embarrassed because a few folks here told you which hog ate the cabbage. Get over it. And, instead of taking your marbles home, think about contributing to the forum with some facts or something which expand shooting horizons, rather than diminish them with such unfounded dogma. One other thing, you might want to review the posts of others here who have contributed to this and other threads where you have made remarks about their comments. I don't think you've comprehended what has been said by others as you've grossly misstated them.
 
#27
Re: Long Range Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">like i said girls, i'm done with this. now i am off to find my next self proclaimed expert spewing stupidity.</div></div>

You don't need to look too far, just face a mirror. BTW, my own shooting ratings, distinctions, and certifications did not materialize from self proclamation; and, whether or not I'm spewing stupidity, I can only say, the facts of marksmanship, which are the basis of my own understanding, are not my creation; but rather, they are the collective observations and discoveries made by accomplished (read expert) shooters both past and present.
 
#28
Re: Long Range Techniques

dude, your still crying about this? you have posted 3 times over 2 different threads. if you spent more time shooting than sitting there keyboard sniping, you would realize that there is a world of difference between 100 and 600 plus yard shooting. i think the real problem here is that your pride has been hurt by someone calling b.s.on your "expert" opinion. so lets get down to the brass tacks. do you really believe that a person that shoots one hole groups at 100 can suddenly pick a target a half mile away and "bingo" theres a hit? this fella asked for long range instruction. you offered 100 yard reduced size targets. face it. stop trying to attack me and admit what you have done. i think you owe that guy an apology for attempting to mislead him. until you apologize, i'm done with you. so stop whining and man up.
 
#29
Re: Long Range Techniques

Your naive perspective is odd, especially since you took a LR course which should have enlightened you about it all. Again, I challenge you to explain how LR marksmanship is different from MR, or even SR marksmanship. You alluded to wind reading as being different in an earlier post; but, you did not explain how it is different. Do you use a different formula or something than would be used at lesser distances? Perhaps, you think wind reading is not important at lesser distance shooting. Is that right?

For sure, LR is a challenge. Folks going to the LR firing line who confuse the execution of the firing task with knowing how to shoot will have more than just wind reading issues. On the other hand any "marksman" can shoot well at any distance with acclamation to the novelties of the venue.
 
#30
Re: Long Range Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RemmyMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anybody reccomend any long range books mostly containing techniques and training tips? NOT long range hunting. </div></div>

I've read a few books and it's good to get the very basic. What I discovered is that while some people place more emphasis on certain aspects of shooting than on others, as the range extends ALL aspects of shooting are critical and most of it will ride on you.

This site is interesting because as SS stated there are people from all disciplines here who come and talk, and brag and stretch the truth or in some cases, minimize it. But there are gems that surface every once in a while. It's up to the reader to recognize those.

I suspect by your question that you may be getting into the LR for fun or perhaps competition. If the latter is the case, I would urge you to go watch a long range match in your area and OBSERVE was is going on there. Watch the shooters and see how they do things. You can sit with books till the cows come home, but seeing it done is much more enlightening, in my opinion. Also, it will enable you to understand what you are reading.

Mastering the short range is a great step towards learning then taming (not mastering) the long range. If you are unable to turn in great scores on minuscule targets at the short range, you will be highly frustrated at the long range. All the mistakes you make at the short range will be amplified at the long range, exponentially.

To prepare you for the long range, you will need a decent rifle with (adequate for your purposes) sights, decent ammunition, shooting paraphenalia and most important the proper attitude and willingness to learn.

You should also spend some quality time on the carpet at home aiming at a dot on the wall and pulling the trigger without moving from the dot. Do that a few thousand times and keep doing it.

So, find a match venue and go visit. Ask questions and LISTEN to the answers. Then come back here and ask more questions.
 
#31
Re: Long Range Techniques

GMAN762,
I think I understand what your trying to say but it just came out wrong. What I think your saying is just because you can hit a smaller target at 100yds does not mean you can go out and hit one at 600yds.

I have talked to guys in the Guard that think because they can hit a "Reduced" 600yd target at 100yds they can do it at 600yds just as easy and thats not the case. There is a lot more things that will come into play when shooting at long range. The further out you go the more things will have a greater affect on your bullet.

Ballistics will come into play as well as atmospheric conditions equiptment may even make a difference. But with that being said SS is right when saying that you still have to have good shooting tech. and skill to be able to hit a target at either distance.

 
#34
Re: Long Range Techniques

Interestingly, my scores on the MR target are very close to what I shoot on the MR-31. The MR-31 has reduced scoring rings which allow nothing less than a perfect position, sight alignment, and consistent target/sight relationship for good results. Some think the MR is an easier target in most any wind, I'm one of them.
 
#35
Re: Long Range Techniques

SS, I was wondering, do you train or teach LR? I live in good ol' Bama and its not that far from Kentuck. If you do, I would love to learn from you. Any Tennessee matches? I totally get the fact of good fundamentals and if you practice shooting golfballs at 100 it will be easier at 500. If you can hit them at 500 then your groups will be tighter at 1000(barring wind shifts etc). I remember from drag racing that if you listen to everyone its confusing and you probably won't get where you want to be but if you listen to the guy that is running the times that you want to run, your chances of getting there are greatly improved. I believe this to be true in all aspects of life. Thanks for your time. Tommy
 
#36
Re: Long Range Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hey guys check out the indiana training thread in the firearms training forum. there is a crackpot over there claiming to be someone tellin folks that trigger control and practice on a 100 yard range are all you need to be a long range rifleman. halarious, i know. go check it out. </div></div>That's not what he said, and you know it. Ignoring the fundamentals is not something that I would want my training staff to advocate; nor is playing fast and loose in reporting what others say. I'm not reporting you to the Mods, just letting you set an example for anyone you may represent. </div></div>


If anyone here happened to see the first episode of Top Shot on the History Channel the other night, it appears that 100 yards may in fact be LR (for that guy Mike anyway). Appearently, it was way too far out there for the guy who couldn't hit the target with iron sights at 100 yards even though he is an "expert" shooter. ...... LOL.

Just pokin fun. You guys got all serious and it made me think of that show the other night. Hope some of you watched it, or my comment won't even be funny.

Mutt
 
#37
Re: Long Range Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what constitutes as a junior member? are you trying to say that my posting status number being lower than yours or that other guy's somehow lessens the validity of my information? my post numbers are low because i only post when i get into people like this telling newer shooters crap like "if you practice at 100 yards you will be a long range marksman".
if the instructors at rifles only were to hear this they would light this guy up! regardless of how much keyboard sniping experience he has.
thanks. hope this has helped you to understand. 100 yards is NOT long range.</div></div>

Marksmanship is not defined by distance, it is defined by perfection. The skills essential to good outdoor shooting, at any distance, are the same. Learning how to shoot can be accomplished at relatively short distances. And, for anyone interested in LR, first developing skills at SR will help the shooter begin to properly analyze shot placement, without the possible confusion wind could impose from practice at greater distance. In other words, sometimes an inexperienced shooter will adjust for non-existent wind when position or perhaps trigger control was actually at fault. Shooting at distances where wind is not a factor exposes the real source of error to bring about a proper respect for the importance of the basics.

LR is not esoteric, it's only more demanding of perfection, mostly, regarding wind strategies, once basic marksmanship skills have been mastered.</div></div>

While I am not going to waste a lot my time (tonight) reading the entire thread, What Sterling Shooter has to say is hard to argue with!

Perfection of trigger control - breathing - position on the rifle as well as the over all control of the weapon is learned & perfected at short range... personally speaking anyway. Once that was accomplished shooting at longer ranges became more of a mind game & of course to develop confidence in my limited knowledge at the time - one step at a time, one day at a time. Because I felt I had developed a solid foundation to begin with, gave me the ability to work on the other skills that must be developed, that are required to hit targets at longer ranges on demand. To quote an old saying - we must all learn to walk before we can run... Good advice as far as I am concerned!!!

Good bumping into you again SS - Good Night Gentlemen!

Aug ><>
 
#38
Re: Long Range Techniques

Hell just do what i did...join the Army and if you are a decent shot they will provide all the literature, class room teaching and range experience you will need! LOL! Worked for me, although I forget alot of what i was tought do to getting torn up and the 40 plus surgeries to jaws and skull! I still shoot perdy good though. LOL!

Actually there have been a bunch of good books and manuals mentioned and although time on range does lots and lots of good, you still gotta know the tech stuff. You get real good when you shoot for money too! LOL! Or go broke, which ever comes first! LOL! Good luck brother!
 
#39
Re: Long Range Techniques

Yes,, i just got medically retired from the army i was a sniper in ranger batt and special forces as a 18B,, you want all tactics for shooting, camo, techs, google FM 23-10 its the armys sniper training manual hope it helps, it has all the break down for your dope charts, and equations for hold of and coefic charts, mil dot specs and equation,, you have any questions hit me up hhttp://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/23-10/index.htmlere's the link
 
#41
Re: Long Range Techniques

your forgetting the military practices most of its shooting at 25 meters for zerioing to paper qual. other ranges are from 50m-300m, but your basics shooting techniqs are the most important if you dont have those down you cant even start to shoot long range dist. 800m-2400m and all the same fundementals apply for the longer ranges
 
#43
Re: Long Range Techniques

there are some rely good suggestions posted here
I like Jeff Cooper's Art of the rifle
have you looked at the online training on the hide ??
it is very good I wish I found it years ago
. Dave
p.s there is a lot of good info on this site
 
#45
Re: Long Range Techniques

What book on External Ballistics would you recommend? I've read the excellent Bryan Litz's book - and it's great, but it's not complete: now I need something deeper and with complete coverage of the necessary calculations.

Thanks!
 
#46
Re: Long Range Techniques

I forget the title of the Robert McCoy's book on ballistics but it has complete coverage of the necessary calculations. I used McCoy went I wrote my ballistics and only used other sources for the atmospheric estimates and corrections.

I also have a copy of Bryan's book and I think he did a great job explaining ballistics without dragging through the math.

Hope this helps,

wade
 
#47
Re: Long Range Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wwbrown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I forget the title of the Robert McCoy's book on ballistics but it has complete coverage of the necessary calculations. I used McCoy when I wrote my ballistics and only used other sources for the atmospheric estimates and corrections.</div></div>
I considered McCoy's book (Modern External Ballistics) - but got scared off by its reviews on Amazon: basically people said that (a) the approach it uses is severely outdated, and (b) it's full of errors.

What is your opinion? Are you happy with the ballistics engine you wrote based on this book? What other sources did you use for atmospheric?

TNX!
 
#48
Re: Long Range Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm certain you'll discover, eventually, with an attitude adjustment, that all shooting is, indeed, the same. LR is not different from SR, just more demanding. </div></div>

I don't see this at all.

Say I'm a lousy shot from prone. Say I break the shot with a dispersion of +- .4 mils at 100m. My lack of pointing skills or trigger control makes for dreadful shooting.

Now I move to an unknown range target somewhere around 700m. If I'm really good I can estimate range to +- 5%. This will lead to a dispersion of about +- .7 mils. My 100 yard pointing error is swamped by range estimation error. But range estimation error will be neglible at 100m.

The critcal skill thus changes completely. The longer range is a whole new ball game.

Sure, you can say that marksmanship is all about perfection. But being really good at anything is all about perfection. That doesn't mean that everything is the same.



 
#49
Re: Long Range Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what constitutes as a junior member? are you trying to say that my posting status number being lower than yours or that other guy's somehow lessens the validity of my information? </div></div>

This would make Maser a senior member...

YIKES!
eek.gif
 
#50
Re: Long Range Techniques

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I considered McCoy's book (Modern External Ballistics) - but got scared off by its reviews on Amazon: basically people said that (a) the approach it uses is severely outdated, and (b) it's full of errors.

What is your opinion? Are you happy with the ballistics engine you wrote based on this book? What other sources did you use for atmospheric?

TNX!</div></div>

I am not sure how outdated it is as the physics has not changed much. I started with the differential equation out of McCoy which is the correct way to solve a motion problem, then it is just a matter of getting the drag curve correct. I do not understand how someone could say the book is outdated as he recommends numerical methods to solve the DE.

It took me about 15 minutes to write a numerical solver for the DE and then about 5 days to get the geometry correct for uphill, downhill, scope height etc.

Am I happy with the engine, yes it is dead nutz on, just like JBM, Bryan Litz and others. I have some ideas on what I want the GUI to look like and I have someone porting/packaging it for the IPhone.

MouseXXXX if you have any questions about the nitty gritty PM and I will try to help.

Hope this helps,

wade
 
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