Looking for .22LR recommendations

[D0ntTr3@d0nM3]

Hi all,
I am still looking for a bolt action .22LR to learn fundamentals on. I had a previous thread about a specific rifle (Howa Trakr .22LR), but I decided to start a fresh thread because the scope of that one was intended for a specific rifle. (Moderators please feel free to move relevant posts from that post to this one). I know some alternate recommendations were made in that thread, but I'd like to get it moved it moved over to this thread that is more in more scope. That being said here are my requirements.

Requirements: .22 LR Bolt action, threaded barrel (suppressor ready), I would prefer a rifle that is Rem 700 platform based but not required, heavy bull barrel if possible.

Purpose: Learn fundamentals of shooting and zeroing, doping a scope and to save money on ammo. I will not be doing any rimfire competitions or anything like that so I don't need anything expensive and fancy. In a perfect world I would like my max budget to be about $300-$500, but if that isn't possible I could budge on that some.

Rifles I am considering:
CZ 457
Savage Mark II (I was told by a friend that the bolts in Savages are a pita to remove. If there is a mod for this that would be great because the prices on them are very attractive.)
Bergara B14 (If I can get one of the cheaper models and get the same performance/features from it as the B14 minus the stock that is fine. I can always upgrade it later)
possibly a Ruger RPR

Also if anyone is selling anything like this please let me know. I will mining the PX again today. I don't have a full membership though so I can't post WTB there.

Thank you in advance

 

[John?]

I have a Savage MK2 FVSR. It works well enough for my purposes, but I don’t shoot NRL 22 matches very often.

No trouble removing bolt for me. I did replace the stock with a Boyds AT One. I like that stock much better than factory.

Most of the fellows around here shooting rimfire long range are using CZ rifles.

 

[021411]

CZ457 given your choices. Although not a R700 footprint it can easily be upgraded as you learn or as time/money allows. Maybe one day you’ll get into competition be it positional stuff or even Benchrest. 457’s can be purchased for sub $500.
The B-14R can be purchased with a heavy barrel but that doubles your budget.

 

[hlee]

While I like the idea of a 22lr for practice, their lack of recoil make them very forgiving of poor fundamentals. In other words, you can have a lot of bad habits and still shoot a 22lr pretty well.

 

[D0ntTr3@d0nM3]

I have a Savage MK2 FVSR. It works well enough for my purposes, but I don’t shoot NRL 22 matches very often.

No trouble removing bolt for me. I did replace the stock with a Boyds AT One. I like that stock much better than factory.

Most of the fellows around here shooting rimfire long range are using CZ rifles.

I don't plan to compete with it or anything like that. I am just using it to learn shooting/scope fundamentals with. I ordered a MPA Matrix 6.5 CM rifle but I probably won't get it until October or November. My .22LR doesn't even need to be on par or comparable to the Matrix I have coming. I am just plan to use it for like I said learning fundamentals and saving money on ammo for longer days at the range.

btw what is your process for removing your bolt on your MK2? My friend had told me that there are multiple steps including pulling the trigger to remove it lol. I know some of what he said was exaggerating. I can look up and watch a YouTube video of it too, but just curious as to what your process is.

 

[usafa77]

The Remington 700 footprint ups the price.

 

[D0ntTr3@d0nM3]

While I like the idea of a 22lr for practice, their lack of recoil make them very forgiving of poor fundamentals. In other words, you can have a lot of bad habits and still shoot a 22lr pretty well.

What do you suggest for practice? I think you are the first person I've come across that is against the 22LR for practice (which is a good thing) so I am very curious to know your stance/opinion on the matter. I have an AR-15 rifle that I was going to use for practicing purposes. I know semi auto and bolt action rifles are different. I don't think I've found anyone who agrees with me on using that rifle for practice/learning fundamentals either.

 

[D0ntTr3@d0nM3]

CZ457 given your choices. Although not a R700 footprint it can easily be upgraded as you learn or as time/money allows. Maybe one day you’ll get into competition be it positional stuff or even Benchrest. 457’s can be purchased for sub $500.
The B-14R can be purchased with a heavy barrel but that doubles your budget.

Hi,
Which CZ 457 model are referring to? If I get one that is sub $500 wouldn't the barrel and stock need to be upgraded? I'd at least like the barrel to be threaded. I think I can worry about the stock at a later date.
Thank you

 

[021411]

Hi,
Which CZ 457 model are referring to? If I get one that is sub $500 wouldn't the barrel and stock need to be upgraded? I'd at least like the barrel to be threaded. I think I can worry about the stock at a later date.
Thank you

If you just need to get behind something then a 457 Scout would work. They are sub $500. An At-One can be purchased under $800 and an MTR under $900 when in stock. Your budget is your budget but I would increase it if you’re already looking at upgrades.
My Scout came with 1/2-28 threads.

 

[hlee]

What do you suggest for practice? I think you are the first person I've come across that is against the 22LR for practice (which is a good thing) so I am very curious to know your stance/opinion on the matter. I have an AR-15 rifle that I was going to use for practicing purposes. I know semi auto and bolt action rifles are different. I don't think I've found anyone who agrees with me on using that rifle for practice/learning fundamentals either.

Your OP says you want to learn fundamentals. I would argue that learning and practicing are and 2 different things.

Let’s take multiplication as an example. The learning phase would be having a student work out 0x0 through 10x10 on their own and then put the answers into a grid. The practice phase would be committing this table to memory. If there is an error in the table- due to imperfect learning- then the practice will only replicate that error and commit it to memory.

Tiger Woods was the first person I heard say “Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent.”

The recoil of a 22lr rifle is so slight that I often need to move the rifle to see bullet impacts on a paper target, even from fairly compromised positions (the scope reticle occluding the impact as the rifle didn’t move at the shot.)

22s are so easy to shoot well, a new shooter gets very little feedback that they are doing it wrong. I mean, is it wrong if you’re stacking bullets? If the ultimate goal is building a stable position for recoil management of high(er) recoiling cartridges, then it very well may be incorrect. But, you won’t get that feedback until you’re shooting those cartridges.

Don’t mistake my meaning, a 22lr can be a valuable practice tool- but it’s more about maintenance of skills, not building them from nothing.

Why are you wanting to learn fundamentals of marksmanship? What is the ultimate goal? If the ultimate goal is precision 22lr, then rock on. But, if the goal is a centerfire cartridge, I would start there. Or near there. Don’t start with any magnum. I’d shy away from any long action cartridge. 223 rem/5.56 nato is a near ideal starter cartridge. Quality ammo is not terribly expensive (though much more so than 22lr). Enough recoil to remind you of fundamentals, but not so much to beat up a new shooter. Rifles and ammo are both readily available.

Semi autos are more difficult to shoot than bolt actions. But if your semi auto is up to your precision goals (if you want to be a sub moa shooter, is it a sub moa rifle?), a semi auto will teach you more than a bolt action… That said, running a bolt action from a slippery prop, under a time constraint, and shooting targets you can’t see with the naked eye is a skill in itself.

 

[epags]

deleted

 

[FimRire RongLifle]

If you ordered an mpa creed already id suggest getting a bergara barreled action b14r and learning how to swap them back and forth as needed then get a second chassis later. It will save money and get you into a better rimfire rifle.
Otherwise I'd go for rpr to be closest to a chassis rifle for the budget

 

[D0ntTr3@d0nM3]

Your OP says you want to learn fundamentals. I would argue that learning and practicing are and 2 different things.

Let’s take multiplication as an example. The learning phase would be having a student work out 0x0 through 10x10 on their own and then put the answers into a grid. The practice phase would be committing this table to memory. If there is an error in the table- due to imperfect learning- then the practice will only replicate that error and commit it to memory.

Tiger Woods was the first person I heard say “Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent.”

The recoil of a 22lr rifle is so slight that I often need to move the rifle to see bullet impacts on a paper target, even from fairly compromised positions (the scope reticle occluding the impact as the rifle didn’t move at the shot.)

22s are so easy to shoot well, a new shooter gets very little feedback that they are doing it wrong. I mean, is it wrong if you’re stacking bullets? If the ultimate goal is building a stable position for recoil management of high(er) recoiling cartridges, then it very well may be incorrect. But, you won’t get that feedback until you’re shooting those cartridges.

Don’t mistake my meaning, a 22lr can be a valuable practice tool- but it’s more about maintenance of skills, not building them from nothing.

Why are you wanting to learn fundamentals of marksmanship? What is the ultimate goal? If the ultimate goal is precision 22lr, then rock on. But, if the goal is a centerfire cartridge, I would start there. Or near there. Don’t start with any magnum. I’d shy away from any long action cartridge. 223 rem/5.56 nato is a near ideal starter cartridge. Quality ammo is not terribly expensive (though much more so than 22lr). Enough recoil to remind you of fundamentals, but not so much to beat up a new shooter. Rifles and ammo are both readily available.

Semi autos are more difficult to shoot than bolt actions. But if your semi auto is up to your precision goals (if you want to be a sub moa shooter, is it a sub moa rifle?), a semi auto will teach you more than a bolt action… That said, running a bolt action from a slippery prop, under a time constraint, and shooting targets you can’t see with the naked eye is a skill in itself.

Very well laid out. Thank you. I myself have been skeptical of getting a 22LR from the beginning because it's basically like a BB gun. But almost everyone I talk to tells me to get one so that's the only reason I am even considering one. I'd much rather save my money for glass for my 6.5CM than buy a .22 and just use my AR rifle. I can still get out to what? 600 yds with my 5.56 so there is a lot of room to grow and learn out 600 yards. I think I shall just still with that plan. I think one argument my friend made with me using it is that most ranges only let you shoot out to 100-200 yards and you won't be able to account for bullet drop or anything like that with 5.56 but you can mimic it with a .22LR. I think I will just stick with my 5.56. Thanks I am glad at least one other person agrees with me haha.

 

[FimRire RongLifle]

If I only could shoot 200 yards id probably shoot way more rimfire then I already do (besides steel challenge)

 

[flogxal]

Very well laid out. Thank you. I myself have been skeptical of getting a 22LR from the beginning because it's basically like a BB gun. But almost everyone I talk to tells me to get one so that's the only reason I am even considering one. I'd much rather save my money for glass for my 6.5CM than buy a .22 and just use my AR rifle. I can still get out to what? 600 yds with my 5.56 so there is a lot of room to grow and learn out 600 yards. I think I shall just still with that plan. I think one argument my friend made with me using it is that most ranges only let you shoot out to 100-200 yards and you won't be able to account for bullet drop or anything like that with 5.56 but you can mimic it with a .22LR. I think I will just stick with my 5.56. Thanks I am glad at least one other person agrees with me haha.

Main practical reason to play around with rimfire is you can send a lot of rounds for a low cost.

Main weakness is the excellent description given earlier: lack of meaningful recoil means your weaknesses in fundamental skills won't be revealed. Only gross errors.

Some people need a lot of work, time, and rounds downrange to overcome their gross fundamental errors. Usually, self-taught people.

It really depends on how particular you are, as an individual, regarding how well you nail the fundamentals. Some want just enough to be "good enough." Some want to put everything through one hole, and will work their arses off to make that happen, including taking classes and working seriously on training.

Secondary weakness of rimfire is that rimfire ammo is pretty inconsistent compared to centerfire. So when you're trying for 10 shot groups the one erratic shot may just be the ammo. Still, the cost per round is a big bargain and if you enjoy shooting maybe that's the strongest pull.

@hlee -- "Tiger Woods was the first person I heard say “Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent.” -- Not surprised Tiger Woods felt as much. I heard that sentiment long ago from a very good golf coach. Almost 50 yrs ago. As he said it, "Remember, you can get very good at the wrong things with practice. So your practice has to be focused and you have to criticize everything."

You can run the same fundamentals with .223/5.56 and the recoil will be enough to show more fundamental errors, especially if you can go to 300+ yds. But now your ammo prices are quite a bit higher per round.

 

[D0ntTr3@d0nM3]

Main practical reason to play around with rimfire is you can send a lot of rounds for a low cost.

Main weakness is the excellent description given earlier: lack of meaningful recoil means your weaknesses in fundamental skills won't be revealed. Only gross errors.

Some people need a lot of work, time, and rounds downrange to overcome their gross fundamental errors. Usually, self-taught people.

It really depends on how particular you are, as an individual, regarding how well you nail the fundamentals. Some want just enough to be "good enough." Some want to put everything through one hole, and will work their arses off to make that happen, including taking classes and working seriously on training.

Bad fundamentals is what I am trying to avoid at all cost. I am basically an unpoked virgin at this point lol. So when I learn I want to learn the correct and best way to do everything so I don't have to untrain or unlearn bad habits. There is a place in Northern Texas that has training for $450 I think it is for a 1 day all day training session for long range shooting starting at the closer distances and moving out. I am thinking of giving that a try.

Secondary weakness of rimfire is that rimfire ammo is pretty inconsistent compared to centerfire. So when you're trying for 10 shot groups the one erratic shot may just be the ammo. Still, the cost per round is a big bargain and if you enjoy shooting maybe that's the strongest pull.

@hlee -- "Tiger Woods was the first person I heard say “Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent.” -- Not surprised Tiger Woods felt as much. I heard that sentiment long ago from a very good golf coach. Almost 50 yrs ago. As he said it, "Remember, you can get very good at the wrong things with practice. So your practice has to be focused and you have to criticize everything."

You can run the same fundamentals with .223/5.56 and the recoil will be enough to show more fundamental errors, especially if you can go to 300+ yds. But now your ammo prices are quite a bit higher per round.

I am fine with and more on board with using my 5.56 for fundamentals. It frees up money for glass on my 6.5CM rifle as well as ammo and accessories. Idk if there is specific 5.56 ammo I should be using but on ammoseek there are quiet a few vendors that have free shipping on bulk ammo right now and from what I can tell most are under a dollar per round. https://ammoseek.com/ammo/5.56x45mm-nato?sh=free
They have reloading supplies too.

 

[John?]

A lot of 5.56 ammo is unsuitable for accuracy. Suggest you go out to a local Service Rifle match or F Class event and ask shooters what they recommend for ammunition or handloading components.

I’ve had good results from the 77grain SMK and Varget powder for the long line Service Rifle. 69 grain SMK works pretty well at 200 and 300. Other folks have different preferences depending on barrel twist and rifle discipline.

For factory ammunition I’ve had decent results with the IMI 77 grain load in Service Rifle.

I think I missed what type 5.56 rifle you are shooting

 

[D0ntTr3@d0nM3]

A lot of 5.56 ammo is unsuitable for accuracy. Suggest you go out to a local Service Rifle match or F Class event and ask shooters what they recommend for ammunition or handloading components.

I’ve had good results from the 77grain SMK and Varget powder for the long line Service Rifle. 69 grain SMK works pretty well at 200 and 300. Other folks have different preferences depending on barrel twist and rifle discipline.

For factory ammunition I’ve had decent results with the IMI 77 grain load in Service Rifle.

I think I missed what type 5.56 rifle you are shooting

It's a custom build. It's the one in my profile picture. This is the ammo I am currently using. I've gotten some light strikes in the past when shooting it and just got another light strike yesterday at the range so I need to figure out if it is the ammo or something else wrong with the rifle.

 

[John?]

I’ve shot quite a lot of XTAC for local 2 and 3 gun games. It’s not what I would call precision ammunition but it usually goes bang and stays on a USPSA target. Primers are on the harder side. Could be you need a little more hammer speed to ignite those primers, especially if you have a high speed trigger set up.

 

[D0ntTr3@d0nM3]

I’ve shot quite a lot of XTAC for local 2 and 3 gun games. It’s not what I would call precision ammunition but it usually goes bang and stays on a USPSA target. Primers are on the harder side. Could be you need a little more hammer speed to ignite those primers, especially if you have a high speed trigger set up.

It only happens every so often. Yesterday at the range I only had 1 light strike out of about 120 rounds. I think the previous time it happened 2-3x in one session. To be honest I am not sure which trigger is currently in the rifle. I did however just order a LaRue MBT 2S. Its 4.5 lb and comes with the springs for 6lb pull. We shall see if that changes anything.

 

[John?]

It only happens every so often. Yesterday at the range I only had 1 light strike out of about 120 rounds. I think the previous time it happened 2-3x in one session. To be honest I am not sure which trigger is currently in the rifle. I did however just order a LaRue MBT 2S. Its 4.5 lb and comes with the springs for 6lb pull. We shall see if that changes anything.

Good luck sorting it out quickly.

I have that trigger. It’s pretty nice and a good value for general purpose carbine work.

 

[flogxal]

If I only could shoot 200 yards id probably shoot way more rimfire then I already do (besides steel challenge)

At 200 yds, wind will play much more on rimfire than on .223/5.56, and thus more wind reading opportunity.

200 is much bigger a stretch for rimfire than for .223/5.56.

But at the other end is that loss of recoil effect, so it's a trade-off.

 

[D0ntTr3@d0nM3]

At 200 yds, wind will play much more on rimfire than on .223/5.56, and thus more wind reading opportunity.

200 is much bigger a stretch for rimfire than for .223/5.56.

But at the other end is that loss of recoil effect, so it's a trade-off.

what about a hybrid option? I was told that the .22L conversion kits for AR wouldn't be as accurate as a true 22LR because of the bore on my 5.56 rifle. I could buy a 22LR complete upper for it to solve that problem and swap them back and forth correct?

 

[oldrifleman]

There are a number of people that post regularly here that shoot 200 - 400 yards with rimfires, one that i know of that hunts small game to almost 400 yards with a 22LR. Not sure what you are after anymore. Rimfires are fun and many of us have spent more on our rimfires than our centerfire PRS rigs. we like our rimfires and shoot them to shoot them not to pretend they are centerfires. If that is what you want to do pick up a 223 like was mentioned.

 

[D0ntTr3@d0nM3]

There are a number of people that post regularly here that shoot 200 - 400 yards with rimfires, one that i know of that hunts small game to almost 400 yards with a 22LR. Not sure what you are after anymore. Rimfires are fun and many of us have spent more on our rimfires than our centerfire PRS rigs. we like our rimfires and shoot them to shoot them not to pretend they are centerfires. If that is what you want to do pick up a 223 like was mentioned.

Sorry for the confusion. Perhaps this thread has gone a bit off topic.

 

[John?]

what about a hybrid option? I was told that the .22L conversion kits for AR wouldn't be as accurate as a true 22LR because of the bore on my 5.56 rifle. I could buy a 22LR complete upper for it to solve that problem and swap them back and forth correct?

I haven’t had stellar results with the conversion kits. Bore and groove dimensions are different between the centerfire and rimfire 22s (also 22 WMR). Also chamber tolerences with the insert can be challenging. So, generally if you want to shoot the rimfire on an AR you should just build a dedicated rimfire upper.

 

[obx22]

Self taught, I learned on airguns by copying shooting positions in a book. Bore time teaches you a hell of a lot. Switched to rimfires, and stayed because I didn’t and still don’t consider centerfire a challenge. If you want a rimfire, build or buy one. Shoot enough and push yourself both in distance and shrinking targets, and you will constantly improve.

 

[MarkCZ]

I changed to Rimfire a few years back. I rimfire barrel will last 10's of 1000's round. A 556 barrel will last 2000 to 3000 maybe. That is why PRS shooters have gone to 22lr trainer's. By your link 3000 rounds of 556 will run around $1500.00. and you will need a new barrel.

you can get 15,000 of Eley Contact for that price. Great ammo for everyday shooting. I shoot SK Long Range for matches
.
You learn to shoot a rimfire, a centerfire is a piece of cake. Get you a Tikka T1x, CZ 457 Varmint, or a Bergara B14R. The B14R gets you everything you need, gun and Chassis.
I shoot long range steel, 200yd and 300yds, twice a week, It is a Blast. I know guys that were into PRS centerfire heavy. They went to rimfire. Liked it so much, they gave up centerfire.
Good luck on your quest.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I changed to Rimfire a few years back. I rimfire barrel will last 10's of 1000's round. A 556 barrel will last 2000 to 3000 maybe. That is why PRS shooters have gone to 22lr trainer's. By your link 3000 rounds of 556 will run around $1500.00. and you will need a new barrel.

you can get 15,000 of Eley Contact for that price. Great ammo for everyday shooting. I shoot SK Long Range for matches
.
You learn to shoot a rimfire, a centerfire is a piece of cake. Get you a Tikka T1x, CZ 457 Varmint, or a Bergara B14R. The B14R gets you everything you need, gun and Chassis.
I shoot long range steel, 200yd and 300yds, twice a week, It is a Blast. I know guys that were into PRS centerfire heavy. They went to rimfire. Liked it so much, they gave up centerfire.
Good luck on your quest.

After years of everytime I was about to purchase a Bergara, something would come up and the money I had saved for that purchase was used elsewhere for dare I say a more important purchase (like a 50th Wedding Anniversary gift for my Brenda.) Well this past December, I had a major eye issue (stroke) in my left eye (As our son said, good thing it’s not his shooting eye) I was given two options, 1. shots in my eye every month to relieve pressure with it never getting any better, only worse for the rest of my life or 2. Try this experimental treatment which could help. (the first half of the experiment had gone well with no adverse issues and some were improving so the risk was not as great.)

I have two friends, who for reasons have had to take the shots in the eye. Sure enough, their issues never get better and they are married for better or worse to the retina clinic. So, guess what, try the experimental treatment and get a HUGE cash windfall.

This is the result.

My eye has completely recovered and instead of a Bergara (which I still think is a great buy) I got a Vudoo.

Point, The Vudoo arrived in April. Already I have fired it more times than all of our centerfire rifles combined for the entire year. In fact, until this past week, I have not had to load any 6GT rounds since before April. And, I really had plenty on hand but wanted a few extra for the week I am going to be shooting with our son at Altus.

So, buy a decent .22 and yes, your Centerfire PRS rifles will definitely feel Very Neglected.

Last point. In a recent quarterly magazine, there was an article about upgrading the Ruger RPRR. Replacing the chassis, adding a butt stock, replacing the trigger, replacing the barrel, plus the cost of the rifle, will cost the user as much as a Bergara and a Vortex or Bushnell scope. Why bother? Get the better rifle and be happy. Either the Bergara or the CZ will do fine. (Unless one or two of your centerfire PRS rifles wind up in the PX so then get a Vudoo or a RimX. .