Looking for a Belgian pup...

[Maggot]

Here are a few more pics of the BM we rescued recently. If you have the time and experience, I think they are great dogs. He is very eager to learn new things and picks them up quickly. Off leash heeling with distractions is still a challenge!

Handsome boy ya got there. Interesting eyes.

 

[Robjohn315]

Handsome boy ya got there. Interesting eyes.

Thanks, he just scared the crap out of my daughters boyfriend so he earned extra points in my book!

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Anybody know anyone thats tried hunting wolves with dogs? Really wanna get a wolf or mountain lion hunt up north one day. Appears the wolves them hippies brought in are doing a number on the game populations up there.

 

[bogeybrown]

Thanks, he is a beautiful dog! His temperament is really good...luckily my wife stays home with the kids and she does obedience dog training so he gets plenty of mental and physical activity. We have a good friend who is a retired handler from the Marines and he recommended this Mal for us. Someone contacted him needing to rehome the dog and he recommended our family. He has been a great addition. My wife uses the e-collar for obedience related training and other methods for agility, field trials, scent work, ect. He heels really well on leash and he does pretty well off leash. Of course, all off leash training is done on our property. Antime he is in public, he is on a leash. Regarding the e-collar, his working level is an 8 out of 100. I can't feel the "stim" of the e-collar until around level 18. My wife says it holds him accountable to the obedience commands once he fully understands what they are and what is expected of him. She doesn't use the e-collar on any dog until she is confident they understand what is being asked of them. How do you feel about e-collar training? We are always looking to learn from others and open to new training methods.

There was a time when many of my colleagues were using E-collars extensively. All of them were convinced that they and they alone possessed the one and only way to use them properly. I didn't have any formal certification in their use, and found the different approaches to their use to be a largely personal thing. For those reasons I didn't feel that I personally should use them. There were certainly times where I said "an e-collar would've helped right there", but it forced me to find another way to get where I needed to with a dog.

In our particular situation: training dogs for certification for USFOR-A, DOD, CENTCOM under a Mil cert judge in accordance with AR190-12, once the e-collars came into play I saw them become a crutch for lazy trainers and guys were creating a lot of problems with dogs. Eventually they became forbidden.

I have seen them used most effectively with bird dogs (or the like) where dogs are working independently at long distances from their handlers/owners and there needs to be an effective means of re-focusing a dog's attentiveness or obedience. Hence 2Afan's experiences with his GSP and yours with your Lab.

I enjoy working with dogs because you never, ever, have the ONE approach that's always going to work. I've had some great days troubleshooting dogs where all of us look at each other and say "now what?" and have to start brainstorming a way to get where we need to be. I personally felt that trainers who were going to force a dog into one way of training whether it was working or not were missing out on the fun of finding a new tool for the box. The Clear Signals method was a novelty at one point that became a go-to starting point for many of us. I'm currently using it and teaching it to the disabled vets and their service dogs that I'm working with.

So the short version of all that bullshit: The only thing 10 dog trainers will agree on is that the other 9 are wrong. If a method is fair and humane (in context) to the animal, and achieves the desired results without causing further issues then I feel it has a place.

 

[Maggot]

Anybody know anyone thats tried hunting wolves with dogs? Really wanna get a wolf or mountain lion hunt up north one day. Appears the wolves them hippies brought in are doing a number on the game populations up there.

Its not the game population, the re introduction of wolves into Yellowstone has been a very positive thing...except or the few cattle that the ranchers lose. There will be a lot of bullshit slung against my post, but I see it as the same thing as not killing off all the rhino, or elephants. Id like them to be there for my grand kids to see, not exterminated to satisfy corporate or individual greed.

 

[Quarter Horse]

315,

As I know nothing of BMs I will comment on your Lab. She's just the way I like them. Lean, deep chested, finer head and I'm guessing 70lbs+. She looks trials bred and they can be very high powered. If they get "out of range" a collar can be the only way of gaining their attention or enforcing a command.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Anybody know anyone thats tried hunting wolves with dogs? Really wanna get a wolf or mountain lion hunt up north one day. Appears the wolves them hippies brought in are doing a number on the game populations up there.

I agree with maggot. The wolf's belong to a point. Can't have a population of 1 million anymore than we can have a population of 100 million bison. But they have their place.

They do need to be kept in check just like every other species. I Believe that a few elk heards were decimated at first. They had lost their only natural predator (sans man of course) and as all "sheeply" do they become complacent. My understanding is the elk have adapted and populations have leveled off.

As with all animals we need a plan. "Kill them all" is not a plan, nor is "save them all".

There are more hunter aged people in my state (age 14 up) than there are deer. If one day all of them had the thought "i am going to kill me a deer" there would be no more deer. Just saying.

 

[2ndamendfan]

There was a time when many of my colleagues were using E-collars extensively. All of them were convinced that they and they alone possessed the one and only way to use them properly. I didn't have any formal certification in their use, and found the different approaches to their use to be a largely personal thing. For those reasons I didn't feel that I personally should use them. There were certainly times where I said "an e-collar would've helped right there", but it forced me to find another way to get where I needed to with a dog.

In our particular situation: training dogs for certification for USFOR-A, DOD, CENTCOM under a Mil cert judge in accordance with AR190-12, once the e-collars came into play I saw them become a crutch for lazy trainers and guys were creating a lot of problems with dogs. Eventually they became forbidden.

I have seen them used most effectively with bird dogs (or the like) where dogs are working independently at long distances from their handlers/owners and there needs to be an effective means of re-focusing a dog's attentiveness or obedience. Hence 2Afan's experiences with his GSP and yours with your Lab.

I enjoy working with dogs because you never, ever, have the ONE approach that's always going to work. I've had some great days troubleshooting dogs where all of us look at each other and say "now what?" and have to start brainstorming a way to get where we need to be. I personally felt that trainers who were going to force a dog into one way of training whether it was working or not were missing out on the fun of finding a new tool for the box. The Clear Signals method was a novelty at one point that became a go-to starting point for many of us. I'm currently using it and teaching it to the disabled vets and their service dogs that I'm working with.

So the short version of all that bullshit: The only thing 10 dog trainers will agree on is that the other 9 are wrong. If a method is fair and humane (in context) to the animal, and achieves the desired results without causing further issues then I feel it has a place.

I agree. Just like people no 2 dogs the same. For me the E-collar was last resort, not first. Also i have only ever seen them used on bird dogs. You have many great points and obviously much more experience over all with dogs let alone with security dogs.

 

[Maggot]

It sounds like you are doing the E-collar correct. As I stated above it was the only thing that saved my German short hair from going to a new home. I was at my wits end. I knew that she knew what I was saying. Sit, come ,.... etc. But she also knew that to be disciplined she had to get with in arms reach. The collar I used had tone,tick, zap. I would also follow that order and other than the first 15 minutes of her figuring out I didn't need to be at arms length anymore I rarely had to zap her. I would guess other than the first 15 mins we only reached zap stage about 10 times over the next 8 years before she passed. 90% of the time just the tone would do the job, and that was only if she didn't follow the command the first time which she did 75+% of the time after just a couple days. I was amazed at how fast she learned it. I always thought she was smart. But while contemplating the step to the E-collar in my mind I thought I would have to basically electrocute her because she was so fucking stubborn.

Im not sure the E cllar would work with wolves but Ill give it a try. The mother is a jumper and runner...and as you say, once shes out of arms reach its "Fuck You". Can you recommend one and where to shop?

 

[2ndamendfan]

Im not sure the E cllar would work with wolves but Ill give it a try. The mother is a jumper and runner...and as you say, once shes out of arms reach its "Fuck You". Can you recommend one and where to shop?

I got mine at sportsman warehouse. I got one with 1 mile (line of sight range) cause yea 300-600 yards line of sight wasn't going to cut it. I will find it and get you a model number, it would be almost 13 years old at this point though.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

No doubt wolves are cool animals, albeit from what Ive heard from those who have to live with em their reputation as the boogeyman of predators is atleast a little based in reality. Correct me if Im wrong, but the wolves they brought here was a species that had never lived in that area right? They brought those big mean ass Canadian/Alaskan fuckers not the kind that was native to the area..? Regardless I dont have a dog in the fight so to speak.

 

[2ndamendfan]

No doubt wolves are cool animals, albeit from what Ive heard from those who have to live with em their reputation as the boogeyman of predators is atleast a little based in reality. Correct me if Im wrong, but the wolves they brought here was a species that had never lived in that area right? They brought those big mean ass Canadian/Alaskan fuckers not the kind that was native to the area..? Regardless I dont have a dog in the fight so to speak.

I am not sure. Also I would not discourage you from taking a wolf. Idaho has a plan and with that they have tags you can purchase. Much like a bear tag. I haven't done it but I have a couple friends that have. All I advocate is equilibrium.
I do know this. Bison heards were so decimated that to bring them back they were bred with domestic cows. A couple heards in america are about 80% bison 20% cow while some are as much as 50/50. In all essence the American "buffalo" has been extinct for a little over 100 years.
I do like to go jackrabbit hunt and in my state they are unregulated. But I use a pistol or a rifle so that I do leave some for next weekend. I have seen guys go through an area with shot guns and just create carnage on a biblical scale. It then seems to take 3-5 years for them to come back to that area. So for years I then have to listen to the assholes bitch that rabbit hunting sucks, there are no rabbits.

 

[Robjohn315]

There was a time when many of my colleagues were using E-collars extensively. All of them were convinced that they and they alone possessed the one and only way to use them properly. I didn't have any formal certification in their use, and found the different approaches to their use to be a largely personal thing. For those reasons I didn't feel that I personally should use them. There were certainly times where I said "an e-collar would've helped right there", but it forced me to find another way to get where I needed to with a dog.

In our particular situation: training dogs for certification for USFOR-A, DOD, CENTCOM under a Mil cert judge in accordance with AR190-12, once the e-collars came into play I saw them become a crutch for lazy trainers and guys were creating a lot of problems with dogs. Eventually they became forbidden.

I have seen them used most effectively with bird dogs (or the like) where dogs are working independently at long distances from their handlers/owners and there needs to be an effective means of re-focusing a dog's attentiveness or obedience. Hence 2Afan's experiences with his GSP and yours with your Lab.

I enjoy working with dogs because you never, ever, have the ONE approach that's always going to work. I've had some great days troubleshooting dogs where all of us look at each other and say "now what?" and have to start brainstorming a way to get where we need to be. I personally felt that trainers who were going to force a dog into one way of training whether it was working or not were missing out on the fun of finding a new tool for the box. The Clear Signals method was a novelty at one point that became a go-to starting point for many of us. I'm currently using it and teaching it to the disabled vets and their service dogs that I'm working with.

So the short version of all that bullshit: The only thing 10 dog trainers will agree on is that the other 9 are wrong. If a method is fair and humane (in context) to the animal, and achieves the desired results without causing further issues then I feel it has a place.

Thanks for the feedback, I understand about no one method being the end all be all. We are interested in learning more about the clear signals method...can you recommend a good book for this type of training.

 

[Robjohn315]

Im not sure the E cllar would work with wolves but Ill give it a try. The mother is a jumper and runner...and as you say, once shes out of arms reach its "Fuck You". Can you recommend one and where to shop?

this is what we use on our lab and mal, they are highly adjustable and work well for us

http://www.allk-9.com/index.php?mai...0oORYVSu6UzMNAF4Kyt5iLCATdix3NFFi3xoCwa3w_wcB

 

[Maggot]

this is what we use on our lab and mal, they are highly adjustable and work well for us

http://www.allk-9.com/index.php?mai...0oORYVSu6UzMNAF4Kyt5iLCATdix3NFFi3xoCwa3w_wcB

Thanks, Rob. I like that name...Educator, LOL. Thats what my mutts need, education.

 

[Robjohn315]

315,

As I know nothing of BMs I will comment on your Lab. She's just the way I like them. Lean, deep chested, finer head and I'm guessing 70lbs+. She looks trials bred and they can be very high powered. If they get "out of range" a collar can be the only way of gaining their attention or enforcing a command.

Thanks, she is about 75lbs and has an incredible prey drive. We have to use the ecollar occasionally to get her attention at distance. She is a certified therapy dog and puts in work at the local high school and VA.

 

[Maggot]

I agree with maggot. The wolf's belong to a point. Can't have a population of 1 million anymore than we can have a population of 100 million bison. But they have their place.

They do need to be kept in check just like every other species. I Believe that a few elk heards were decimated at first. They had lost their only natural predator (sans man of course) and as all "sheeply" do they become complacent. My understanding is the elk have adapted and populations have leveled off.

As with all animals we need a plan. "Kill them all" is not a plan, nor is "save them all".

There are more hunter aged people in my state (age 14 up) than there are deer. If one day all of them had the thought "i am going to kill me a deer" there would be no more deer. Just saying.

Dern, 2A, what state do you live in? Texas has just the opposite problem. They kill more with cars than guns.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Dern, 2A, what state do you live in? Texas has just the opposite problem. They kill more with cars than guns.

Utah, deer population is around 700,000 i believe. Which would put the deer out numbered about 2:1 of hunting aged people. Of course not everyone that can does. Just saying it wouldn't take much to wipe out a species.

PS. Texas has more privately own tigers than are estimated to live in the wild in the rest of the world. 3500 vs 3200 (5000 in the whole USA)

 

[knockemdown]

All your verbiage shows how little you know: Both about wolves and about mine in particular. And you should learn to read for content, not just what you want to hear. I wont waste more time or energy attempting to educate one who already knows it all, other than to say, you dont.

OK.

Actually, was just commenting on how those with 'intimidating' breeds' seem to always have a "my dog whipped a pitbull" story ready to share, LOL.

No worries here, enjoy your canines & be happy your boy didn't find one that could dish it back...

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Having a pap that owns a pitbull I can appreciate their never quit determination. I've seen a pitbull have its guts half opened up after a hog got the better of em, get stitched up and back out in the action weeks later albeit this time with kevlar. They're killers. But wolves are killers too. And while I wouldn't bet against pitbulls in a 1v1 cage match, I also wouldn't wanna bet against wolves out in some dark thick unfamiliar woods.

 

[knockemdown]

As for e-collars with some power & range, look into a Garmin combo GPS unit. My Alpha has 3 user programmable e-collar buttons, plus GPS. Range is several miles, and the e-collar commands work that far, too.
The shock intensity is adjustable, so you don't over-stimulate & potentially wreck your dog. Some dogs need less/more juice, depending on their coat and level of hard headedness. It comes with longer prongs for long haired breeds. On the higher outputs, there's plenty of spark to get your charge's attention. Belive me, I've tried it on myself and it was NOT pleasant!

Got a few miles on my Alpha, it has served very well. Considering how my dog hunts, he's prolly covered 3x that distance I've walked/biked.
Can see the e-collar control buttons, on the top face.
I have left button set to a momentary 'nick' of shock, middle button is 'tone' (dog trained to recall at the beep), right is continuous juice. I use 'tone' all the time, and only rarely use the juice. Very rarely...

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Nother thing I've heard is apparently mules will keep yotes away from otherwise vulnerable livestock? Any experience?

 

[knockemdown]

I've seen where ranchers have put donkeys out in the calf pastures to keep coyotes at bay. My buddies tell me those little gray fuckers are hell on wheels on dogs/coyotes & can imagine a mule having that same attitude passed along...

 

[MtnCreek]

A donkey will put a hurting on yotes and the yotes seem to know it.

Maggot, If you decide to use a shock collar, make sure you use the tips that are long enough to reach through the fur and the collar should be snug. Don't leave the collar on when you're not working with them. SportDog makes some good collars at a decent price. If you're just looking to use in close training, you probably don't need to spend for the models with longer reach, completely water-proof, ... I'd be willing to bet it will get your wolf-dogs atten. If adjusted right, you shouldn't see much visible reaction to the shock.

 

[Maggot]

MtCreek, thanks for all the advice. Ill look at the Garmin, I love the gps they make.

 

[bogeybrown]

Thanks for the feedback, I understand about no one method being the end all be all. We are interested in learning more about the clear signals method...can you recommend a good book for this type of training.

Hey buddy, I'm trying to find you some resources. I used to have a series of videos from the "inventor", but I can't remember if those were a hard copy or on a share drive. I see some BS on YouTube, but haven't found the original videos that I worked from.

Probably the best free resource for Clear Signals is the USAF dog manual:

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a4/publication/afman31-219/afman31-219.pdf

For anyone who wants to know how much they don't know about dogs, it's a great resource. There's a chapter on training/conditioning methodology that is exhaustive (Ch 2) and there's a full chapter ( Ch 4 ) on Clear Signals.

Thers also a ton of info on health, first aid, etc for dogs that folks serious about their 4-legged companions may find useful.

If if I can find the resources that I used to have, I'll post back with them and shoot you a PM

 

[diverdon]

Hey buddy, I'm trying to find you some resources. I used to have a series of videos from the "inventor", but I can't remember if those were a hard copy or on a share drive. I see some BS on YouTube, but haven't found the original videos that I worked from.

Probably the best free resource for Clear Signals is the USAF dog manual:

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a4/publication/afman31-219/afman31-219.pdf

For anyone who wants to know how much they don't know about dogs, it's a great resource. There's a chapter on training/conditioning methodology that is exhaustive (Ch 2) and there's a full chapter ( Ch 4 ) on Clear Signals.

Thers also a ton of info on health, first aid, etc for dogs that folks serious about their 4-legged companions may find useful.

If if I can find the resources that I used to have, I'll post back with them and shoot you a PM

Bogey brown, thank you for that PDF, that will be a big part of my summer reading!

 

[Robjohn315]

Hey buddy, I'm trying to find you some resources. I used to have a series of videos from the "inventor", but I can't remember if those were a hard copy or on a share drive. I see some BS on YouTube, but haven't found the original videos that I worked from.

Probably the best free resource for Clear Signals is the USAF dog manual:

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a4/publication/afman31-219/afman31-219.pdf

For anyone who wants to know how much they don't know about dogs, it's a great resource. There's a chapter on training/conditioning methodology that is exhaustive (Ch 2) and there's a full chapter ( Ch 4 ) on Clear Signals.

Thers also a ton of info on health, first aid, etc for dogs that folks serious about their 4-legged companions may find useful.

If if I can find the resources that I used to have, I'll post back with them and shoot you a PM

Thanks for the pdf and all of your help. If you run across anything else, please let me know. We had a meal outside tonight for the 1st time since we have had him and we had him place laying down on a bench beside our fire pit. I had to put him back in place a few times over the 30 minute meal but he did really well considering we we about 30 feet away and he wanted to be with us and he may have wanted a hamburger too...lol. I think his original owner use to feed him human food from the table...not something we do but to each his own! Thanks again, John

 

[Quarter Horse]

As for e-collars with some power & range, look into a Garmin combo GPS unit. My Alpha has 3 user programmable e-collar buttons, plus GPS. Range is several miles, and the e-collar commands work that far, too.
The shock intensity is adjustable, so you don't over-stimulate & potentially wreck your dog. Some dogs need less/more juice, depending on their coat and level of hard headedness. It comes with longer prongs for long haired breeds. On the higher outputs, there's plenty of spark to get your charge's attention. Belive me, I've tried it on myself and it was NOT pleasant!
They suggest
Got a few miles on my Alpha, it has served very well. Considering how my dog hunts, he's prolly covered 3x that distance I've walked/biked.
Can see the e-collar control buttons, on the top face.
I have left button set to a momentary 'nick' of shock, middle button is 'tone' (dog trained to recall at the beep), right is continuous juice. I use 'tone' all the time, and only rarely use the juice. Very rarely...

KED, that collar has been recommended to me by a houndsman. I like the features but have read that you can't increase the level without several steps (go to menu, choose sub menu, etc.). They suggest using a regular e-collar for initial training as you can escalate immediately. Your experience?

 

[bogeybrown]

Thanks for the pdf and all of your help. If you run across anything else, please let me know. We had a meal outside tonight for the 1st time since we have had him and we had him place laying down on a bench beside our fire pit. I had to put him back in place a few times over the 30 minute meal but he did really well considering we we about 30 feet away and he wanted to be with us and he may have wanted a hamburger too...lol. I think his original owner use to feed him human food from the table...not something we do but to each his own! Thanks again, John

You're welcome, bro. I feel like a tard that I referenced something that has apparently disappeared (Clear Signals vids).

As for the down-stay during the meal, etc. Always try to set your dog up for success, until you're really at the point of "proofing" a behavior. Next time have him much closer to you so he's not battling as many challenges at once: presence of food and distance from you

close to you while you're eating and mark his good behavior while he's mainting his stay (praise and/or reward). After the meal take a morsel from your plate and give it to him ONLY in that stay position (there's some timing and nuance)

farther while there's no food present and acknowledge his position, praise/reward


dogs, just like humans, are hugely sensitive to consistency and fairness: if we know what's expected and it's rewarded or corrected consistently we learn very quickly
he's learning you, your language, your body language, and his limits with you all at the same time

 

[knockemdown]

KED, that collar has been recommended to me by a houndsman. I like the features but have read that you can't increase the level without several steps (go to menu, choose sub menu, etc.). They suggest using a regular e-collar for initial training as you can escalate immediately. Your experience?

Actually, its very simple!
That screenshot I took was of the 'trip computer' screen of my unit.

The unit has a touch screen, with tabs under each e-collar button. Here's a file photo:

All you need to do to set button parameters is to touch the tab below each button:

Select "M" for a momentary shock (nick)
Select "C" for a continuous shock (has a built in safety that stops automatically after several seconds)
Select "T" for 'tone (audible collar beep)

Then, there are corresponding + / - buttons to adjust intensity for each (1-14, IIRC)

Literally, you could program all three buttons faster than it took for me to type that.

Also, the unit will save those settings for individual collars. So, if you're running a pack, you simply select the dog from user screen list, and the buttons will only control that particular e-collar.
Got that Alpha unit shortly after it came out in mid-2012. You can see by the odometer, have been averaging nearly 800 miles per year, since. And that's just me carrying the handheld, my dog prolly has likely covered 2-3X that distance, given how he ranges out to hunt.

Finally, the handheld is also a stand alone GPS unit, and I have my state's topo map chip installed. So I can see my dog's track & position, relative to a detailed topographic map. Well worth the investment!

 

[knockemdown]

As for e-collar setup /settings, that Alpha has three buttons to use so you can have them tailored and preset to your dog's tolerance level.
I don't see that as being much of a hindrance, over using the ol' TriTronicsTrashbreaker, or a Dogtra, Sportdog, etc. The key is getting the levels set up to be effective on your dog, before a training session. Then, a correction is as easy as pressing the right button...
Won't go into application, I just know what works for me & my dog. Like bogey mentioned, you'll get a different opinion from 10 trainers, and that isn't even taking into account the dog's personality. One thing should be safe to say is that an e-collar is NOT a substitution for proper conditioning. Remember, the dog still needs to learn a command before it can effectively be corrected for disobeying it. In that regard, the e-collar just helps put the finishing touches on an otherwise well behaved & conditioned canine...

Good luck!

 

[MtnCreek]

That Garmin is impressive. I'm sure it beats climbing up in a laurel waving a two ft antenna around trying to get a beep!

 

[Robjohn315]

You're welcome, bro. I feel like a tard that I referenced something that has apparently disappeared (Clear Signals vids).

As for the down-stay during the meal, etc. Always try to set your dog up for success, until you're really at the point of "proofing" a behavior. Next time have him much closer to you so he's not battling as many challenges at once: presence of food and distance from you

close to you while you're eating and mark his good behavior while he's mainting his stay (praise and/or reward). After the meal take a morsel from your plate and give it to him ONLY in that stay position (there's some timing and nuance)

farther while there's no food present and acknowledge his position, praise/reward


dogs, just like humans, are hugely sensitive to consistency and fairness: if we know what's expected and it's rewarded or corrected consistently we learn very quickly
he's learning you, your language, your body language, and his limits with you all at the same time

Thanks, that's great advice. I'll do better in the future to set him up for success. He did really well and we are starting to learn one another. I'm pretty sure he is smarter than me..just can't let him figure that out!

 

[bogeybrown]

Thanks, that's great advice. I'll do better in the future to set him up for success. He did really well and we are starting to learn one another. I'm pretty sure he is smarter than me..just can't let him figure that out!

It sounds like you're really lucky. There's zero science behind this, but usually when I see the Mals with that full mask and color down their chests I instantly expect an asshole dog. I showed your pic to a fellow trainer last night who also instantly said "oh shit, usually Mals with that coloring are hard asses".

As i said, no real science behind it, but a huge number of the true land shark Mals have had that coloring. A lot of times those crazy dogs will have the bug eyes as well. When a dark dog with the crazy eyes came onto the bite field I knew I was going to be in for a ride.

 

[Robjohn315]

It sounds like you're really lucky. There's zero science behind this, but usually when I see the Mals with that full mask and color down their chests I instantly expect an asshole dog. I showed your pic to a fellow trainer last night who also instantly said "oh shit, usually Mals with that coloring are hard asses".

As i said, no real science behind it, but a huge number of the true land shark Mals have had that coloring. A lot of times those crazy dogs will have the bug eyes as well. When a dark dog with the crazy eyes came onto the bite field I knew I was going to be in for a ride.

I guess we got lucky with him, he's just over 10 months old so I hope that remains constant. We ate outside last night again and I placed him on the porch about 5 ft from the table...he didn't break place one time in about 30 minutes. When we were done, I gave him a few dog treats while he was still in position.

 

[bogeybrown]

I guess we got lucky with him, he's just over 10 months old so I hope that remains constant. We ate outside last night again and I placed him on the porch about 5 ft from the table...he didn't break place one time in about 30 minutes. When we were done, I gave him a few dog treats while he was still in position.

That's great, man.

If he's stable at that age, and you don't do anything to "feed the crazy" he should be great as he matures. Just like with humans, but even more so to dogs, they are at their "happiest" when they know the rules and there's consistency. A lot of dog/ owner conflict comes from the owner not sticking to their own rules for the dog. If the dog gets away with something half the time and gets a meaningful correction the other half of the time, they're confused and get frustrated. Which pisses off the owner, and the spiral starts

 

[Robjohn315]

That's great, man.

If he's stable at that age, and you don't do anything to "feed the crazy" he should be great as he matures. Just like with humans, but even more so to dogs, they are at their "happiest" when they know the rules and there's consistency. A lot of dog/ owner conflict comes from the owner not sticking to their own rules for the dog. If the dog gets away with something half the time and gets a meaningful correction the other half of the time, they're confused and get frustrated. Which pisses off the owner, and the spiral starts

Thanks for the vote of confidence, my wife is super consistent with him. She has a lot more experience than I do. She says the same thing about being consistent 100 percent of the time otherwise it's unfair to the dog. She has an animal science degree, worked as a vet tech for years, teaches animal science at the high school, and trains dogs on the side. Honestly, she has done 90 percent of the work with him, I just come home to a well trained dog! Thanks again for all or your help! John

 

[Import_gsd]

Well, if you want a no bullshit answer. Give me a call or pm. I bet i can get "the right dog".

 

[bogeybrown]

Well, if you want a no bullshit answer. Give me a call or pm. I bet i can get "the right dog".

Hey bro, welcome back. I hope this means life has calmed down a bit for you.

 

[2ndamendfan]

I will 2nd what Bogeybrown said. Nice to see you back.

 

[SFree]

Hey bro, welcome back. I hope this means life has calmed down a bit for you.

This man is one of the most upfront, honest, honorable men this country has. He can get you a world class dog, but the rest is up to you... He's a great guy

 

[Import_gsd]

Slightly,
Waiting on final surgery on my back. But in the mean time call me. Get your passport ready, lol i think you will like my buddy fritz! His brother jan owns Z-polytanu in slovakia, & we'll be training with the anti terrorist k9 unit in europe if your down? Bogiebrown!
He just offered me a retiring 7 yo female mali? She lives in the home and eats terrorist like no other!
Ive got pick of a gsd litter currently 2 weeks old, 2 young 13mo old started gsd males, sable, all on the table. No brokers or bullshit! Real deal top breeder/trainers.

 

[Import_gsd]

Sorry guys, i keep forgetting because that bullshut go big crap SH sucked!
Currently back in tacoma area. Not permanently, but for a while. Updated my website & will continue to. Big plans in store if the VA/tricare or whoever agrees to fix me. Or should I say the plan will rapidly proceed after surgery! Disintegrated l5/s1 tends to slow me down more than 20 yrs ago.
Good to be back,
Kenny

 

[Import_gsd]

This man is one of the most upfront, honest, honorable men this country has. He can get you a world class dog, but the rest is up to you... He's a great guy

He might know, i delivered this what 2 weeks ago?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ4gUWCYq3k

 

[bogeybrown]

Slightly,
Waiting on final surgery on my back. But in the mean time call me. Get your passport ready, lol i think you will like my buddy fritz! His brother jan owns Z-polytanu in slovakia, & we'll be training with the anti terrorist k9 unit in europe if your down? Bogiebrown!
He just offered me a retiring 7 yo female mali? She lives in the home and eats terrorist like no other!
Ive got pick of a gsd litter currently 2 weeks old, 2 young 13mo old started gsd males, sable, all on the table. No brokers or bullshit! Real deal top breeder/trainers.

I'm a sucker for the Eastern European bloodlines. It was an abomination that some of those countries killed off so many of their lines when the Wall came down, but some of the surviving lines are amazing. I used to joke that you could see an Eastern dog strut onto the bite field like his dick was dragging the ground. Crazy how great some of the old communist breeding programs were.
I think I have ONE open page left in my passport, so I may be up for a trip

 

[Import_gsd]

Well considering hank is 1/2 ddr, we will visit the breeder, youll love her, but her dogs are real & shes hilarious! And an old cz breeder nobody knows, a club in austria to train for a few days @ Helmut Hubers , plus fritz & family. My only problem is saying no, because we can only bring 2 dogs per person & alot of nice dogs being offered. But, i found a loophole. Being retired & all mides well !

 

[Import_gsd]

Don,
Sorry shes higher drive. But in actuality shes the lower end drive wise of what i breed.so before you go throwing low-high drive statements, understand we all look @ it different. See folks theres a huge difference between dogs bred to the original standards & bred towards the breeders choice in the standards! Some more for work, some show, alot of bullshit not fit to be sold& very few like me that breed for the total dog!
The German shepherd was designed as a " WORKING UTILITY" dog! Like mine, i can say that because they are doing different things! 4 service dogs, 2 police k9's, 3 sport dogs & 5 family dogs all from 2 differnt litters of same parents.
Its the quality of placement of the right dog, regardless of color/sex/etc... with what you need, not what you think you want. I can make a fit quikly, but you will never be truly happy! It takes some time!
Time both the guys here spent with me in emails, texts, phone calls. I might not have the answer you want, but i'm trying to be honest over making a buck! I'm pretty sure don can vouch for that, i mean he gave me $ to get a dog while in germany. There were dogs there, but werent what HE wanted or i didnt believe worth the price. So he waited and got a puppy & i do believe hes happy with her, besides a few mudroles!

 

[SFree]

Import GSD is absolutely correct!
When he parked in my back yard and Hank got out, I was finally introduced to the old world GSD standard. Kenny snickers about it now, but my response was "So that is what a real one looks like!". I spent close to 2 yrs talking to Kenny and searching for the dog I "thought" I wanted, all the while he kept saying, "This is the dog you NEED".
Hank is a blast and has endeared himself to my family, especially my wife, who is NOT a dog lover like I am. His character is contagious, but the intelligence and true working ability are rising to the surface. Make no mistake, the dominant traits are truly there and have become a by-word in America, but rarely seen. Now, my intro into the "working dog" realm is one of fascination and my work is cut out for me. So, anyone who may be looking for a dog that they "think" they want, look, search, seek advice, and above all, find breeders and handlers (trainers) who have spent countless hours, traveled countless miles, and devoted a lifetime to these working line dogs. Working lines may or may NOT be what you seek, so it's imperative that you listen to your breeder of choice.
Finally, all of this process takes time and should. No short cuts or quick fixes and those who seek titles and fame, while honorable, are missing out if that is all they desire. The journey with these animals is truly remarkable and I'm saddled up for the ride.

 

[MarinePMI]

I've been following this thread with some interest for a few days now. Seems to be a lot of good advice from some very informed people about Mali's. About a year (and some change) ago, my daughter ended up bringing a Mali home as a pet (was not "in the plan", it just kind of happened). The wife was...apprehensive about my daughter's choice.

From day one, all I could say was "wow". This was a puppy pound dog, that came from a breeder (girls at the pound were explaining the back ground as we were looking for a dog for my daughter). Apparently, the litter was given to the pound because two separate males covered the same bitch, and the litter showed it. It appears that the breeder dealt in Groenendael and Malinios, and the bitch was covered by males of both breeds, since three of the four puppies were clearly Groenendaels and the other (the one we ended up with) was Malinios. Whether this is actually what happened or not (don't really know and don't really care actually), I still sit back and say "wow" when working with "Sasha".

I have never be a real dog person, (growing up in the military, it was not something my parents wanted to deal with), but I was shocked by this little ball of energy and her intelligence. Within three days of being in the house she was house broken and would respond to verbal and hand commands, (and she was maybe two months old at the time). Today she's about a year and a half old, and (as I understand it from reading) still exhibits some puppy'ish behavior, but has become a stalwart part of the family. Easy going, but energetic; playful and affectionate, friendly, but quickly protective when she feels anyone in the family is threatened, I am continually impressed. She has those eyes and eyebrows that show expression and clearly convey when the gears are turning. This dog is just plain flat out smart.

I'm no trainer and have no real experience with dogs (horses yes, dogs...no), but she has been fairly easy to train in basic commands ("sit", "laydown", "bed", "room" (crating command), etc.). She also was easily trained in hand signals. When I was training her in basic commands, in addition to voice commands, I'd always perform a hand signal. She latched on to the hand signals, just like the voice commands. Now, I just snap my fingers and point down for sit, flat hand/palm down for lay down, quick slap to the back of my leg for heel, etc.. Again, amazed and how quickly she picked it up (I really only had to walk her through the commands a handful of times before she grasped the concept). She does display the need for an easy hand (from my reading this is common of this breed?) when disciplining, and I can tell when she thinks/knows she's in trouble. I've never had to physically discipline her, as a stern voice is usually all that is required (though she does try to push the boundaries of the commands quite often). I hesitate to be more forceful in discipline, as I don't want a brow beat dog. For example, when given the command "bed", she'll go over to her bed and get up on it and lay down (usually this is done while we're eating dinner). Sometimes she'll begin to low crawl out of the bed, and around the base of the furniture to peak her head around, to watch us eat (her form of begging I'd guess). Most times I don't even have to give a command, I just give her a hard stare, and she gets up and goes back to her bed (like I said, super smart). Other times, a simple "Sasha" in a firm tone accomplished the same thing.

As to aggressiveness, I think she is just starting to show signs of it, but it is usually in response to a threat. We have a neighbor that is, quite honestly, a douche bag at times. I looked out in the back yard one day, and saw Sasha standing there, hackles up, teeth bared and she barked, once, and loud (she hardly ever makes a sound other than soft whines). I quietly opened the door to investigate, and I noticed two things. One, she knew I was there but never took her eyes off the neighbor (as I walked out, I saw one of her ears point my way, she shifted her back to me, and her ear went back forward towards douche bag). Two, the neighbor was taunting her by pushing his head through the hedge row between our houses. Sasha was not happy, and I don't think douche bag realized how close he was to having a 50lb ball of teeth and claws leave the launch pad for an in flight assault. At any rate, I gave her the heel command and she quickly came back to me, circled and continued to face the perceived threat, low growling with some soft whines. Again, I was very impressed, and so was douche bag, who immediately realized I had seen what he was doing, and promptly disappeared from the hedge row.

I'm not sure where I was intending to go with this post, other than to convey my experience with Sasha, and the degree of awe I have for her breeding and personality. She is pretty energetic, and does require a lot of attention/stimulation, but we haven't experienced any problems/bad habits from her. For those of you who do train this breed, I'd be interested in and appreciate any comments you might have.