L3 unfilmed WP 2376+ for the winSo here is my deep thoughts tonight:
L3Harris PVS-14 Unfilmed WP 2396+ FOM from TNVC
BNVD-SG 3rd Gen WP HP+ from JRH
Hopefully this glass of Angels Envy Rye helps me decide.
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L3 unfilmed WP 2376+ for the winSo here is my deep thoughts tonight:
L3Harris PVS-14 Unfilmed WP 2396+ FOM from TNVC
BNVD-SG 3rd Gen WP HP+ from JRH
Hopefully this glass of Angels Envy Rye helps me decide.
Enquiring minds would like to know who plays "Butch" and who plays "Betty"In fact, Vic and I are prettymuch lovers and our wives don't care.
Over a set of BNVD-SG WP HP+. Thats funny.L3 unfilmed WP 2376+ for the win
Those binos look nice. Are you gonna do a coti?So here is my deep thoughts tonight:
L3Harris PVS-14 Unfilmed WP 2396+ FOM from TNVC
BNVD-SG 3rd Gen WP HP+ from JRH
Hopefully this glass of Angels Envy Rye helps me decide.
She's been lonely lately as well!I'd personally have zero problem with a TNVC unit, or a unit from any other long-time, reputable maker. In fact, Vic and I are prettymuch lovers and our wives don't care.
But in the OP's particular case, if there is such a thing as a truly "desirable" PVS-14, it is unquestionably the L3 2376 unit. Until recently, it was Unobtanium. They fetch asking price on the secondary market. They get first-choice in "MIL-spec" tubes out of the factory, and they have a cool sticker that says "L3" on it.
Those binos look nice. Are you gonna do a coti?
And 10 year warranty....
IMHO yes, manual gain is very important.And then see this: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/2x-pvs-14-rnvg.7066095/#post-9371737
@TheHorta Is the manual gain important?
The COTI was designed and purposed for the 2 Way Range. In that setting, it is priceless. Nothing else (with a couple of limited exceptions that are basically unobtainium for most) can do what it can do.We have a coti and its a neat device but limited. Only worth the money if your set on duals imo.
Yeah we've realized its not a set it and forget thing and we've only begun to learn to use it. Wanted to point out that the coti for sale now are supposedly the last new production units that will be available.The COTI was designed and purposed for the 2 Way Range. In that setting, it is priceless. Nothing else (with a couple of limited exceptions that are basically unobtainium for most) can do what it can do.
It can also do double duty in the civi world in a hunting setting reasonably well for just letting you know something alive is out there. Understanding how to set the parameters up for its Gain for the emissivity conditions it is being used in, is critical for getting the proper performance out of it.
It actually works extremely well on a single. It also works extremely well on a PVS-7. Utilizing the COTI correctly is not as simple of a "plug and play" system as most other thermals are. It does one thing extremely well. Everything else it is relatively mediocre at compared to other devices.
The COTI in your toolbox is well worth the money.
Yes that is correct for the Pas 29A models. Per my conversation with Euro Optics a couple of weeks ago, they had a little over 200 remaining out of the 700 inventory liquidation deal they cut with Optics 1/Safran.Yeah we've realized its not a set it and forget thing and we've only begun to learn to use it. Wanted to point out that the coti for sale now are supposedly the last new production units that will be available.
And then see this: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/2x-pvs-14-rnvg.7066095/#post-9371737
@TheHorta Is the manual gain important?
Most, aint all.Manual gain is nice, and useful, but auto-gain works just fine under most conditions.
Most, aint all.
It is better to have and not need, than need and not have. When you need manual gain, you need manual gain.
Why limit oneself when full gain control capability is available for pretty much the same cost.
Horta, was really hoping you could answer this question.Horta, riddle me this. Setting magnifiers aside for now.
So, does a 72 LP resolution tube suffer less degradation on its high light measurement than a 64 LP resolution tube, given they are both exposed to the same amount of high light.
Example:
72 LP exposed to high light = xx high light resolution
64 LF exposed to same exact light = xx high light resolution
Horta, was really hoping you could answer this question.
If you don't know the answer maybe some of the "educate first and foremost" subject matter experts could answer the question.
Surely, some of the SME on here must know the answer.
I know that as most everyone does.Highlight resolution is the Achilles Heel of L3 tubes, and one of the areas where Photonis really wipes the floor with L3.
I know that as most everyone does.
But that was not the question.
Let me clarify and refine it some more.
Assume that both tubes are L3 filmless. So, does a 72 LP resolution (L3 filmless) tube suffer less degradation on its high light measurement than a (L3 filmless) 64 LP resolution tube, given they are both exposed to the same amount of high light.
Example:
72 LP exposed to high light = xx high light resolution
64 LF exposed to same exact light = xx high light resolution
Subscribing to the ARF NV forum was helpful for me a couple of months ago, though that forum has been slower lately. You have to be very quick about replying to the threads.Where to find 2 used PVS-14's? Between ARF, FB NV group, and here it is slim pickings.
Not sure but I wear it regularly for 5-6 hour coyote hunts without issue@brettb614 what does that weigh?
JW, can you list out each one on here as to SN, Regular Resolution and its High Light Resolution.I have 9 tube sheets with high light res values in a spreadsheet I keep, all of which are L3H tubes. The Elbits don’t show that test result (if they do it at all). 7 of them show 36 for highlight res and are a mix of 64 and 72 regular resolution. Two show 45 highlight resolution and 72 regular. All a mix of 1701, 18UM, 20UA and 22UA with S:N values spread between 31 and 36.
Type | S:N | Res | High Res | PC Sens | EBI | Halo |
1701 | 34.0 | 72 | 36 | 2625 | 0.9 | 0.7 |
1701 | 35.7 | 72 | 36 | 2653 | 0.7 | 0.8 |
1701 | 34.3 | 72 | 45 | 2590 | 1.4 | 0.7 |
1701 | 34.2 | 72 | 45 | 2701 | 1.2 | 0.7 |
18UM | 32.5 | 64 | 36 | 2190 | 0.7 | 0.7 |
20UA | 31.7 | 72 | 36 | 2409 | 0.5 | 0.7 |
20UA | 34.3 | 72 | 36 | 2459 | 0.8 | 0.7 |
22UA | 32.2 | 72 | 36 | 2253 | 0.1 | 0.7 |
22UA | 32.3 | 72 | 36 | 2288 | 0.2 | 0.7 |
31a 2376+ | 35.4 | 72 | 36 | 2740 | 0.7 | 0.67 |
31a 2376+ | 33.0 | 72 | 36 | 2412 | 0.5 | 0.8 |
31a 2376+ | 34.1 | 72 | 36 | 2479 | 0.6 | 0.62 |
31a 2376+ | 33.2 | 72 | 36 | 2117 | 0.4 | 0.7 |
It's interesting that the two 45 hi res are the two highest EBI tubes by far. I wonder if there is any connection. Also, damn, Halos are consistent in these.
Type S:N Res High Res PC Sens EBI Halo 1701 34.0 72 36 2625 0.9 0.7 1701 35.7 72 36 2653 0.7 0.8 1701 34.3 72 45 2590 1.4 0.7 1701 34.2 72 45 2701 1.2 0.7 18UM 32.5 64 36 2190 0.7 0.7 20UA 31.7 72 36 2409 0.5 0.7 20UA 34.3 72 36 2459 0.8 0.7 22UA 32.2 72 36 2253 0.1 0.7 22UA 32.3 72 36 2288 0.2 0.7 31a 2376+ 35.4 72 36 2740 0.7 0.67 31a 2376+ 33.0 72 36 2412 0.5 0.8 31a 2376+ 34.1 72 36 2479 0.6 0.62 31a 2376+ 33.2 72 36 2117 0.4 0.7
Good stuff JW.
Type S:N Res High Res PC Sens EBI Halo 1701 34.0 72 36 2625 0.9 0.7 1701 35.7 72 36 2653 0.7 0.8 1701 34.3 72 45 2590 1.4 0.7 1701 34.2 72 45 2701 1.2 0.7 18UM 32.5 64 36 2190 0.7 0.7 20UA 31.7 72 36 2409 0.5 0.7 20UA 34.3 72 36 2459 0.8 0.7 22UA 32.2 72 36 2253 0.1 0.7 22UA 32.3 72 36 2288 0.2 0.7 31a 2376+ 35.4 72 36 2740 0.7 0.67 31a 2376+ 33.0 72 36 2412 0.5 0.8 31a 2376+ 34.1 72 36 2479 0.6 0.62 31a 2376+ 33.2 72 36 2117 0.4 0.7
I tend to think that L3 suffers from high light degradation more so than the Elbit thin filmed.I'm assuming the high light resolution is an L3 thing as I don't see it on my Elbit spec sheet. I don't suppose there's a way to figure it out from the specs given? Something I've been wondering is if a filmless tube with the same numbers is better than a thin film or if the filmlessness is already factored in.
I've been asking questions like that in a few threads because I'm trying to figure out what the huge advantage of these 5k tubes is. I get that some people are not limited by budget and then why not but for most of us $ becomes a factor at some point. I did a lot of research before I started buying and from early on decided to bias my spending towards thermal.
The xls tubes do everything I ask and the flexibility of having 2 vrs 1 high end tube for the price seems to make it a no brainer.
I’m going to buy a 14 and magnifier for the same purpose as you use. I was originally thinking 3x magnifier, but now you got me thinking maybe 5x would be better.Well, I'm a cheaper than you.
I run the Breach cause its cheap, easy to power with the Mod Armory Battery Extender (rechargeable 16650's), it's a tough small unit, and does good enough on detecting.
The NOX is definitely a much better unit than the Breach
However, my logic has been this (from using even some of the higher end Trijicon Thermals). A 5x Magnifier on a PVS 14 and Luna Illuminator, always gives me a better PID than thermal can give me. If a 5x can't do it, slap a 10x magnifier on.
Now I do have a FLIR PTS 736 which is a long range beast at 6X native mag. It is a great long range shooter in the toolbox.
A lot of people want their scanner to be high end. I get it. Me, I am ok with mediocre scanner just for detection cause I can PID with 14, Magnifier and Luna.
I do like my TWS to be on the higher end performance wise and performance wise includes all aspects, not just the image.
NV for walking around. Thermal for finding critters. NV for PID critters. Thermal or NV (both on instant demand) for killen critters.
Yep, sinking a ton of money into "super toobs" gets me zero additional performance than I get with my current setups.
I aint looking for bragging rights at a static NV training event.
A Photonis Echo with a 3x or 5x magnifier and illuminating the target with a Luna ELIR-3 will typically give a cleaner image than L3 or Elbit Thin filmed if it is a decent spec Echo. (Does not have to be a super toob Echo at all)I’m going to buy a 14 and magnifier for the same purpose as you use. I was originally thinking 3x magnifier, but now you got me thinking maybe 5x would be better.
Anyone with experience on here using a photonis echo with a magnifier? Does the echo perform ok with the echo? Or then does the “darkerness” of the echo become a problem?
Same shit with laser. Best option, if you have it, is for spotter to illuminate the target from an angle.I have used a T20 LED illuminator in conjunction with a 6x night scope. Usually turning on the IR cuts the distance that the scope can see drastically when it automatically adjusts to the higher light (light coming back from the closest ridge makes the ridges behind it not visible). The pain is, if there is any cover close to you at all, it will light up and you can’t see anything behind it. I assume all night vision behaves this way.
I’ve wondered if switching to a laser-based illuminator would cut down on the stray light cast on the ground/grass in front of me, and help with this problem. In other words, light up ONLY a small circle in the FOV of the optic. If I got a Luna, would it work like that? I know they focus down really tight. Is there stray light that comes off them or does laser eliminate that?
I don't have much issue using the Luna. Focus the beam down to basically the FOV of the magnifier or less.I have used a T20 LED illuminator in conjunction with a 6x night scope. Usually turning on the IR cuts the distance that the scope can see drastically when it automatically adjusts to the higher light (light coming back from the closest ridge makes the ridges behind it not visible). The pain is, if there is any cover close to you at all, it will light up and you can’t see anything behind it. I assume all night vision behaves this way.
I’ve wondered if switching to a laser-based illuminator would cut down on the stray light cast on the ground/grass in front of me, and help with this problem. In other words, light up ONLY a small circle in the FOV of the optic. If I got a Luna, would it work like that? I know they focus down really tight. Is there stray light that comes off them or does laser eliminate that?
With nods it is fine. With a clip on it is suck.I don't have much issue using the Luna. Focus the beam down to basically the FOV of the magnifier or less.
So I would typically have the magnifier on the right pod and have the Luna in my left hand held up as high as I can get it.
Kind of mimics what Choid says about illuminating the target from an angle. I have not noticed my NODS throttling back much but I do adjust the POWAH of the Luna with the Rheostat depending on the distance I am PID ing a critter at.
That makes sense. Goes back to what Jay (Surgeon Shooter) said in his Youtube vid.With nods it is fine. With a clip on it is suck.
@Horta Do you still think your statement above is correct after you have had time to really think about it.A magnifier does not benefit from added resolution — assuming you’re talking about one that affixes to the objective. You get the same resolution at 1x, 3x, 5x, 10x, etc.
Only when you put a magnifier or scope BEHIND the NOD would that come into play to any extent.
I realize I'm probably being a pest at this point but could you explain why you went that route? I'm the first one in my circle to get NV so far which makes me the defacto guru and I have told people that imo these high dollar tubes are not worth the money. Am I missing something?Well, went L3 PVS-14 2396+ FOM WP from TNVC - a big thank you to Victor for fielding my call. Down the road i'll bridge 2 PVS-14's, or resell and buy duals. Thanks for the input and help gentlemen.
Am I missing something?
Hopefully this glass of Angels Envy Rye helps me decide.
I'm not much of a drinker so thats over my head. Expensive I'm assuming? I'm certainly not one to judge someone on what they spend their own money on. If it's bragging rights that certainly has value up into the millions for some people. If the answer is simply he can afford it and others can't more power to him.