Rifle Scopes Looking for advice - FFP v SFP... what are you using for what..?

[Vicko]

Just stumbled upon this place, done a bunch of searching, found some good stuff and it seems like a good place to ask the question.

For context, I'm looking to scope up two new setups:

First - a featherweight 30-06, which will be primarily used as a stalking rifle. I'm intending to use it for deer & pigs mostly. So.. realistically, 50-300m. Most shots I'd expect to be more than 150m. Maybe a touch more for bigger deer. I wouldn't expect to want to shoot past 500m with it. Not a huge amount of use. Will take it to the range every now and again. Am thinking something in the 3-15x range.

Second - a crossover 308. Heavier laminated stock. This would get more use. For foxes and pests (and if anything else tasty happens to be in the wrong spot at the wrong time), primarily at night with spotlights or a night setup (which I know nothing about at this point). This 308 will probably get even more use at the range out to reasonable distances with a view to dabbling in some comps. The local range runs F class and has 'Hunting rifle' categories. At this stage I don't think I'm interested in PRS type comps. So probably more like 100-300m for pest control and out to 900m at the range. Am thinking something in the 5-25 (or beyond) range. Think of it as a rifle I can train for comps with at the range to see if that's something I want to get serious about.

Budget wise I'd be hoping to spend 2.5-3k for glass for the pair. I've been leaning towards illuminated FFP for both and would be open to buying second hand scopes, but have been second guessing myself of late and wondering if F class type shooters are running FFP now or not... Ive previously only ever used SFP scopes, of entry level quality, but I want to step it up and get a bit more serious, without breaking the bank... and am thinking that I should probably go for a similar style of scope for both rifles for ease of use when switching back to the 30-06.

I realise this could open a can of worms.. but hey, a lot of us are still in lockdown.. so.. now is as good a time as ever

 

[Gee Kay]

ffp for me all the way. zero at all power levels.

sfp zero at maximum power only.

i use ffp for hunting also. uncapped turrets also help to dial quickly for distance shots providing you've doped your gun/scope and have a range finder. or you can cheat and use sigs bdx scope and range finder setup i.e. range the target and the range finder transfers the dope to the scope via bluetooth, hold the dot over the target and pull the trigger.

but ultimately you'll have to research what will work for you.

 

[brianf]

^^^

Ahhh not really...

Any scope FFP or SFP are zeroed and stay zeroed at the distance you “zero “ them at...100 yards is common etc.

Magnification has nothing to do with zero.

The difference between the two are if you plan on using a tree reticle/mildot/ranging reticle.

The FFP measurements stay the same between the stadia/lines/dots.

The SFP measurements change with different magnification

There are a million videos explaining that better than I have.

Very open ended answer but with your budget 1500 per you can get a very nice FFP scope (make sure the turrets match the reticle) Mil ret to mil turrets or moa ret to Moa turrets.

Get ready for the onslaught...lol

 

[Gee Kay]

ok i worded it incorrectly for ffp & sfp. i should change zero to measurements LOL

never seen a mil turret with moa reticle, the other way is quite possible with many cheap scopes. moa turrets with mil reticle.

 

[Basher]

FFP all the things!

 

[Dthomas3523]

 

[Guns&WhiteWater]

Looking for advice - FFP v SFP... what are you using for what..?

For your featherweight hunting rifle, I would choose a lightweight, compact SFP scope like a Leupold 2.5-8x36 with a Boone and Crockett reticle, if you are going to keep your distances within about 200-300 yards. Illumination is unnecessary, as is extra weight and magnification for stalking deer and pigs. Set your zero and then never touch the turrets again. Maybe take notes at the range for longer distances on full power as to where to hold if you think you might need to stretch it out to 500. I would not slap a large, heavy scope on a featherweight rifle but that's just me. If you are going to realistically be shooting beyond 300, then an illuminated 3-15 FFP scope would be my choice for obvious reasons. I would stay away from tree reticles and thin reticles on a shorter range hunting scope regardless.

For your 308, FFP all the way. If you can find a Minox ZP5 5-25x56 at a good price ($2kish) you will be happy.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

I'm using SFP scope in MOA to shoot small groups at ranges out to 1000. Only punching paper with some shooting on steel. Rifle is a 6.5 CM Savage.

VooDoo

 

[Vicko]

For your featherweight hunting rifle, I would choose a lightweight, compact SFP scope like a Leupold 2.5-8x36 with a Boone and Crockett reticle, if you are going to keep your distances within about 200-300 yards. Illumination is unnecessary, as is extra weight and magnification for stalking deer and pigs. Set your zero and then never touch the turrets again.
-snip-
For your 308, FFP all the way. If you can find a Minox ZP5 5-25x56 at a good price ($2kish) you will be happy.

This is why I was second guessing myself.. For some reason I'd got it into my head that I should go all one or the other and not mix and match. So I haven't really been researching SFP scopes.

I was thinking I would drop a PST Gen II 5-25 for the 308. They seem to be pretty good value from what I can gather and the glass looked good to me when I had an albeit quick look through one at a LGS, and then if I went SFP for the 30-06 I could drop something like a cheaper Viper HS 2.5-10 (or the Leupold you mentioned - I haven't really read up on either tbh) which would leave a little in the bank for some decent bipods and a range finder/glasses which I'd still need. And if I ever really get serious about F class etc I'd need a purpose built setup anyway and another, better scope...

 

[Cuda-dude]

FFP-regardless of use for me. All Mil/Mil for that matter too. It’s a few extra dollars and a little more schoolin’ but worth the time and money if you have them.

 

[beetroot]

I realise this could open a can of worms..

Yes it is.
For your cross over/range rifle; go FFP, the Gen 2 PST is a great scope for the money.
For your featherweight; heres where the can of worms and a lot of personal preference comes in.

FFPs main advantage is that the reticle subtensions stay the same at all magnification settings.
FFPS main disadvantage is that the reticle gets very small and thin at minimum magnification (Typically).
SFPs main advantage is that the reticle is easy to see at all magnification settings.
SFPs main disadvantage is that the reticle is calibrated at one magnification setting, typically the max magnification.

Thus, you can determine that:
If you are likely to use the reticle for holds (wind and/or elevation) at multiple mag ranges: FFP is preffered
If you aren't likely to use overs at less than max magnification: SFP is fine
If you have a dulpex reticle or similar with no holds/hashes/mils: SFP is fine

For a hunting scope I personally think SFP is fine in a scope up to 15x but more suited to a scope with a max of up to 12x.
- it's unlikely you will be using hold overs for anything less than 12x magnification.
-any shots close enough that you have the magnification dialed down will very likely require no elevation or wind holds.
-there are FFP reticles that work well at low magnification settings, but typically will still be less visible and quick to acquire than a SFP reticle.

Personally, for a hunting rifle for 50-300m I'd go for something in the 2-12ish mag range, SFP, a reticle that can hold for wind but dial elevation.
But you could do well with a 2.5-8 as mentioned above or a 3-9 scope.
It'll come down to how much you want to spend, reticle preference, exposed vs capped turrets and illumination etc.

 

[Gee Kay]

just to add, on 2 of my rifles i have the same brand sameish xmas tree reticle ffp scopes. can you tell i don't like to think too much? LOL
on the 3rd i have an s&b pmii with the p4f reticle, same same but different to the other 2 scopes. all ffp and all mil/mil.

if you can think on the fly then mix and match. don't want to think too much then get 2 scopes with the same reticle.
OR the sig bdx system where initial setup is required and after that you just place the dot on the target, AFTER ranging, then squeeze the trigger.

as Frank has said and many other members/shooters, reticle choice will be important to you. get something that your eyes like to look at and isn't too busy for your liking. given enough time with whatever you choose you will learn how they work.

 

[Vicko]

That whole 'not thinking much' when switching from rifle to rifle was where I started out...

What about a smaller powered PST Gen II 2-10 on the 30-06..? How do they rate?
Doesn't seem much heavier than a lot of SFP scopes.. I like the look of that reticle too for a hunting rifle.

 

[acudaowner]

I started out with sfp scopes maybe in the future i will try ffp if i can find one that gives me some of what i get in my other scopes if the price is right .

 

[beetroot]

That whole 'not thinking much' when switching from rifle to rifle was where I started out...

What about a smaller powered PST Gen II 2-10 on the 30-06..? How do they rate?
Doesn't seem much heavier than a lot of SFP scopes.. I like the look of that reticle too for a hunting rifle.

I'd try looking through one if you can, I've used one briefly and felt the reticle was too small on 2x. I have a PST 2.5-10 which I like but again the reticle gets very fine.

It would work well in a DMR type role but for a dedicated hunting scope I'd personally go for a different option with a thicker reticle.

 

[drewthebrave]

I think beetroot nailed it. It is entirely dependent on the intended use of the rifle. I have used a number of SFP and FFP scopes, and I expect to continue using a mix of the two depending on the situation & platform.

For my 5.56 rifles which are used mostly for run & gun drills and shooting steel plates & silhouettes, I'm perfectly comfortable with SFP scopes. I generally aim at center mass out to 300y, and if I'm shooting beyond that, I'll typically be at max magnification with my 1-4x SWFA on my carbine and 3-9x VX-R Patrol on my SPR.

My 18" 6.5 Grendel with 3-15x SWFA SFP scope is going to be my short- to mid-range hunting rifle, so I'm going to be pretty safe just lining up my center aiming dot over the vitals with my point blank range of about 225 yards. Any farther than that, and I'll likely have time to zoom to max magnification for target ID and dial in or hold over appropriately. This rifle could probably benefit from a FFP scope, but I'm very comfortable with the SFP on it for now. I did try a FFP scope on this rifle briefly, but I struggled to pick up the small reticle quickly at low magnification - something that is not an issue with the Mil-Quad Diamond reticle on the SFP version of this scope - it really draws my eye to the center and is very quick to place on target at 3~6x zoom.

With my 6.5 Creedmoor build I decided to go for a FFP Athlon Ares BTR 2.5-15 as it was a smoking deal on clearance for Black Friday. This rifle is intended primarily for long-range target shooting up to 1200 yards & a mid- to long-range hunting role between 100-500 yards. With this particular rifle, I'd like to be able to range targets regardless of my zoom level, since I often need to dial back zoom to deal with mirage in the California high desert. Since this isn't a run & gun type of rifle, I feel the small reticle at low magnification isn't going to be as problematic as it would be with my other rifles, since I won't likely need to take any quick snap-shots with this. However, depending how this rifle shoots, I may upgrade to nicer glass with higher top-end magnification and shift this FFP scope to my Grendel as I grow more accustomed to using the FFP reticle.

 

[want2ride]

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on using something that is not designed for something just to have everything uniform across your rifles.
Personally i think either a FFP or SFP does fine for hunting. I don't compete, so i will let the others talk about what would be best there.

I have a Zeiss v4 Conquest (a SFP scope with a tree reticle) and it is very nice, but IMO it is a little heavy for a SFP scope otherwise no real complaints. It has a nice turret and a very usable ZBR2 reticle. It has nice coatings to reduce glare, but is not what i would call a bright scope, but it still does fine for hunting early and late. You can hold over at max magnification or dial. I have had it for a couple years on my kimber 280ai elk hunting rifle and really like it a lot. It is just solid and really has no weaknesses.

I have a Leupold VX3i with the ZL (a SFP with a windplex reticle), and it is super lightweight in comparison to my other hunting scopes. It is a SFP so the windplex really only works right at max magnification and you have to dial every shot, so unlike most other hunting scopes i have it makes the most sense to zero at 200 because i don't like to dial at 300 or under. Since i have only had it a short time, i don't have a ton to say. I bought it for my 5.6 LB .270 win backup elk rifle to give me the lightest overall package. It seems fine and only have 30 or so rounds through the gun, but it seemed to dial just fine to 400 yards.

I have a Burris Veracity (FFP with a wonderfully engineered hunting reticle) with the optional exposed MOA turret and a BDC reticle so if i want to do a quick holdover on a deer 300 or under i use the reticle with 5 and 10 MPH windage marks and a FFP it is always close enough, or if i want to dial for the longer shots i can. The reticle has what they call a progressively thick reticle, so if you take it all the way to minimum magnification you see a floating cross that is thick on the outside and thin in the middle, super easy to see and get on target in low light. If Burris offered the Veracity with a lighted reticle, it would be the perfect hunting scope... if you don't care about the weight. It has some pretty bad CA, but overall that doesn't affect me unless i am shooting at white paper and is not as clear as the sfp scopes i have for hunting, but keeping in mind it is pretty great early and late and is overall still pretty good. I just really like the versatility of being able to hold over at any magnification or dial. I have had it for about a year and it has a few quirks, like the crosshairs being not optically centered (fixed with some Burris signature rings) and the CA. In this case the great reticle designed for FFP hunting, and great turrets make up for the quirks.

Overall my favorite is the Burris just for the ease of use from the fantastic reticle, and the optional exposed turret with zero stop.

 

[want2ride]

With my 6.5 Creedmoor build I decided to go for a FFP Athlon Ares BTR 2.5-15 as it was a smoking deal on clearance for Black Friday. This rifle is intended primarily for long-range target shooting up to 1200 yards & a mid- to long-range hunting role between 100-500 yards. With this particular rifle, I'd like to be able to range targets regardless of my zoom level, since I often need to dial back zoom to deal with mirage in the California high desert. Since this isn't a run & gun type of rifle, I feel the small reticle at low magnification isn't going to be as problematic as it would be with my other rifles, since I won't likely need to take any quick snap-shots with this. However, depending how this rifle shoots, I may upgrade to nicer glass with higher top-end magnification and shift this FFP scope to my Grendel as I grow more accustomed to using the FFP reticle.

I got one of the black Friday deals on that Ares BTR 2.5-15 and it was a hell of a lot of scope for the money i paid. I have it on a savage model 11 300 wsm and it is just great for that. other than a better zero stop, i think it is just solid.

 

[ofelas]

One could just get a fixed power & be done with this whole SFP vs FFP debacle...

 

[Guns&WhiteWater]

One could just get a fixed power & be done with this whole SFP vs FFP debacle...

That’s what I did for my Ruger No. 1 RSI 7x57. Fixed 4 power. Perfect match.

 

[Vicko]

Went out for a look last night with the old man and his 223 to clean up some foxes and had the advice re reticles in the back of my mind while targeting them under spotlight. I don’t want an overly complex reticle and don’t imagine I’ll be needing to hold over on anything under full power, so I think I’ll stick with SFP. His cz223 runs a horrible Nikko Sterling 2-14 but it was still effective enough for me to drop 4 between 150-200 yards within about an hour.

So I think I’m back to SFP.
I actually like the look of the EBR4 reticle of the SFP viper gen2s more than the FFP one (EBR7) anyway. So could still get matching reticles if I went for a 3-15 for the 30-06 and a 5-25 for the 308.

That said I do also like the Moar reticle in the NF SHV 4-14... and I think I can get one of those for less than a PST 3-15...

How do the Viper PST gen 2s compare to the NF SHVs..

 

[beetroot]

Went out for a look last night with the old man and his 223 to clean up some foxes and had the advice re reticles in the back of my mind while targeting them under spotlight. I don’t want an overly complex reticle and don’t imagine I’ll be needing to hold over on anything under full power, so I think I’ll stick with SFP. His cz223 runs a horrible Nikko Sterling 2-14 but it was still effective enough for me to drop 4 between 150-200 yards within about an hour.

So I think I’m back to SFP.
I actually like the look of the EBR4 reticle of the SFP viper gen2s more than the FFP one (EBR7) anyway. So could still get matching reticles if I went for a 3-15 for the 30-06 and a 5-25 for the 308.

That said I do also like the Moar reticle in the NF SHV 4-14... and I think I can get one of those for less than a PST 3-15...

How do the Viper PST gen 2s compare to the NF SHVs..

Shooting under spotlight FFP reticle aren't great but illumination helps. Just be weary that even a very thin SFP reticle is not great either.
My FFP PST is better for spotlighting vs my SFP Leopold VX5 with the thin impact 29 reticle which doesn't have illumination.

I 've only seen the 3-10 SHV and I thought it was rather underwhelming compared to my PST 5-25. Turrets, glass and FOV were all far better on the PST.

 

[Vicko]

Thanks Beetroot - What type of targets do you shoot at under spotlight with the PST 5-25? And would you also use it for stalking pigs/deer in daylight?

 

[beetroot]

I've only got small game I shoot spotlighting; possums, hates, rabbits.

I would use the FFP PST for medium game, but for a dedicated hunting scope I'd go something else.
I used to belong in the cross over rifle camp but there are too many conflicting requirements for the type of shooting I do.
Both in rifle and scope.

I've somewhat settled on a FFP 5-25 for my PRS/target type shooting, which would still work for hunting if I want to drag a heavy rifle around.
Then for a hunting optic the new Vortex Razor LHT or Leopold VX5 type scope in SFP with a slightly thicker reticle.

There's no doubt you can use thin/FFP reticle for hunting, with practice you do get used to using them. But if I have dedicated rifles for different used I don't see the need too compromise.

 

[Vicko]

Right. Mainly foxes under light for me with this setup. If we were targeting anything smaller I'd use my 17hmr (which has a simple SFP 3-9 Nikko Sterling on it).

The Razor LHT 3-15 does look like it would make a nice hunting setup. Razor glass for the same money as a Viper PST. I think I prefer the HSR-5 reticle that seems to be only available on the 42mm variant at the moment.. although the subtension detail image suggests it might be coming on the 50mm too if you notice the file name and heading on the image: https://vortexoptics.com/media/wysiwyg/sub_RazorLHT_3-15x50_HSR-5i_mrad.jpg
Trying to get some more info there atm...

Be interested to hear anyones thoughts onwhat the Razor LHT would compare to in the Nightforce lineup.
Would I be right in thinking it would be an NXS comparison rather than the PST range comparing to the SHVs?

 

[beetroot]

Right. Mainly foxes under light for me with this setup. If we were targeting anything smaller I'd use my 17hmr (which has a simple SFP 3-9 Nikko Sterling on it).

The Razor LHT 3-15 does look like it would make a nice hunting setup. Razor glass for the same money as a Viper PST. I think I prefer the HSR-5 reticle that seems to be only available on the 42mm variant at the moment.. although the subtension detail image suggests it might be coming on the 50mm too if you notice the file name and heading on the image: https://vortexoptics.com/media/wysiwyg/sub_RazorLHT_3-15x50_HSR-5i_mrad.jpg
Trying to get some more info there atm...

Be interested to hear anyones thoughts onwhat the Razor LHT would compare to in the Nightforce lineup.
Would I be right in thinking it would be an NXS comparison rather than the PST range comparing to the SHVs?

Rifle Scopes - VX5 hd, NF SHV, or Razor LHT?

So I'm in the market for a new hunting scope. Budget will be under $1000. The scopes listed in the title are what I'm looking at. This will be a rifle I use for deer sized game under 300 yards. Hope to get peoples input who have used these scopes. All will be in the 3x range. NF shv 3-10x42...

www.snipershide.com

Rifle Scopes - Got some info on Vortex's new Razor LHT scopes

Quick update for you guys! We got some RZR-31503 and RZR-31502 in stock today! Low inventory but if anyone was interested in picking one up give us a call! 800-720-9625 https://www.sportoptics.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=lht

www.snipershide.com

Rifle Scopes - Vortex Razor HD LHT!!!

Surprised there hasn't been a formal thread posted. Vortex gave permission to release info today, so here ya go. Looks basically like a Razor LH with a 30mm tube, a few more reticle options, illuminated reticle, and an exposed elevation turret. Pretty badass basically, I'm excited to put one...

www.snipershide.com

The VX5hd would be well worth considering also.

 

[Vicko]

Dropped in to the LGS today for a look. Unfortunately they didn't have many scopes in my shortlist for me to look at (yay CV19!)

I did look through a couple of Leupold VX3s and thought they were pretty horrible. I'd imagine the eyebox and overall clarity on the VX5 would be better.. or at least I'd hope so.

Also looked at a bunch of Zeiss glass that were all quite impressive by contrast. V4 and V6 and a HD5 - all in the ~3-15ish range. They didn't have any illuminated reticles to look at but the V4 3-12x56 comes with the option of illuminated MOA style reticle ('zmoai') or simple illuminated dot between crosshairs ('reticle 60'). Seemed like pretty decent quality glass for the price here.

 

[Kartman]

FFP Mil for everything.

For the ranges you are shooting Id look at the Trijicon 1-8.

 

[arrow179]

I've got both and have found myself looking at SFP recently but it all depends on what you are doing with it. Hunting purposes I'd go SFP, targets FFP. Good luck in your search!

 

[beetroot]

Dropped in to the LGS today for a look. Unfortunately they didn't have many scopes in my shortlist for me to look at (yay CV19!)

I did look through a couple of Leupold VX3s and thought they were pretty horrible. I'd imagine the eyebox and overall clarity on the VX5 would be better.. or at least I'd hope so.

Also looked at a bunch of Zeiss glass that were all quite impressive by contrast. V4 and V6 and a HD5 - all in the ~3-15ish range. They didn't have any illuminated reticles to look at but the V4 3-12x56 comes with the option of illuminated MOA style reticle ('zmoai') or simple illuminated dot between crosshairs ('reticle 60'). Seemed like pretty decent quality glass for the price here.

The VX5hd is a massive improvement over the VX3, it would compare more with the Ziess.

The V4/V6 do have good reticle options.
The VX5 now come in MIL with a miling reticle but is not illuminated.

 

[bschneiderheinze]

Hunting and paper SFP competition you need FFP for hold overs and unders.

 

[arrow179]

Buy used in the Px and see if you like it. If not, sell it and buy something different. Probably wouldn’t lose much $ if any if you get one bought for the right price.

 

[beetroot]

Buy used in the Px and see if you like it. If not, sell it and buy something different. Probably wouldn’t lose much $ if any if you get one bought for the right price.

Based on the name and the wombat avatar, I'm guessing he lives in Australia.

I wish us non-US based folk could buy stuff easier (export being the issue) from the px as there are some cracking deals to be had.

 

[Vicko]

Yep - chirping in from down unda. Hence some of the pricing down here is a bit different to yours too. I can get a SHV for roughly the same money as a VX4 for instance.Both cheaper than a PST gen2

 

[arrow179]

Based on the name and the wombat avatar, I'm guessing he lives in Australia.

I wish us non-US based folk could buy stuff easier (export being the issue) from the px as there are some cracking deals to be had.

good call - I didn’t put that together that he’s from down under. Good luck on your search!

 

[erwos]

If daylight bright illumination were more common (and cheap) in FFP reticles, I'd probably advocate using it for everything.

Unfortunately, it's not, and that means that resorting to SFP LPVOs. The trade-offs are generally tolerable up to about 1-6x. Wish DFP LPVOs were more of a thing; Burris missed a great opportunity when they didn't do a DFP XTR II 1-5x back in the day.

 

[Odogster]

Def a personal preference that needs to be gained by experience.

 

[SRPowah]

FFP everything, except for the NF 2.5-10x24 on my AR. Partly because they only came in SFP, BUT I am not sure I would want FFP Mil-R in that optic. The only time I am shooting where holdovers/drop/wind matters, its cranked to 10x anyways.

I agree with 0dogster, experience will really help someone find their preference. Sometimes it comes down to the reticle though.

 

[Olddognewtrix]

That buy it and try it experience gets pretty expensive with these upper end scopes.
Based on what I read here, I think its gonna be ZCo 5-27x56 FFP for me. Buy once/cry once.
If thats wrong then we will call it an expensive education.