Sidearms & Scatterguns Looking for advice on .357 wheel gun
- Thread starter bigdaddydmd
- Start date
All of mine are P&R Smiths. Love them all. They are not going anywhere while I'm still kicking. Have a 6 in. Mod. 28 I shot in gun club matches for years with hot loads [ older & smarter now] still locks up tight and is still accurate.
Bigdaddy, for whatever reason you started out where you should end up. The only change I would make would be to choose a 586 rather than a 686. You've gone all retro with wheel and lever guns so you might as well jump all the way in. Blued steel, case hardened highlights and pretty wood has a visual that is extremely satisfying. I'm no expert on revolvers but I have owned all of the modern S&W letter designated frame sizes and still have at least one example of each. I also have both a 4 and 6" Python a Ruger convertible .22 and have had Colt Detective Spec.s, MkIII Troopers, 1873s., etc. In addition I have had Blackhawks, Super Blackhawks and Vaqueros. These are all great revolvers in their own right and have individual characteristics which make them superior in specific circumstances. nal
What the L frame is, is the most modern and versatile of all these elements in a balanced package that will deliver the best of all things in the most usable of all ways. It is not the most durable, it is not the most accurate, it is not the most portable, it is not the most beautiful it is simply the most balanced and therefore the most "usable". They are not too big, not too light, not too anything. They are simply a very good balance of what makes a great shooting revolver. I said I had an L frame but it is actually not mine. It belongs to the wife of a dear passed friend. It is an early L frame 686 which has been to someone who knows revolvers. It has the best double action pull I have ever felt and is, I believe, Magnaported. The vents are trapezoidal which is indicative of Magnaport. I would pay her whatever she would want for it. Unfortunately it is her favorite revolver so I will not make the request when the time comes.
You mentioned lever guns and fortunately there is a perfect companion piece. Browning made a Model 92 in .357. These are beautifully made rifles in one of JMBs classic designs. I don't and never have owned one in .357 but I do have one in .44 Mag. that is a companion piece for a 29-2. I carried the '92 loaded with herky .44 Mag loads and the 29 with .44 Spec. loads at about 750FPS. Between the two I never felt I was lacking for anything where I live and that includes everything from elk to grouse.
A couple of more comments that are entirely personal. I have no idea concerning your age but if you have "old eyes" a four inch gun is easier to shoot than a six inch gun. If you have good eyesight the obverse is true. A good revolver deserves a good holster. A great holster is the Tom Three Persons from El Paso Saddlery. If your shoulders are OK the 3'oclock, thumb snap holsters are classics. If your old and grungy the same holster can be made in a crossdraw which are ideal if horseback or in and out of vehicles. A little leather carving on these means you have an instant barbecue gun.
What the L frame is, is the most modern and versatile of all these elements in a balanced package that will deliver the best of all things in the most usable of all ways. It is not the most durable, it is not the most accurate, it is not the most portable, it is not the most beautiful it is simply the most balanced and therefore the most "usable". They are not too big, not too light, not too anything. They are simply a very good balance of what makes a great shooting revolver. I said I had an L frame but it is actually not mine. It belongs to the wife of a dear passed friend. It is an early L frame 686 which has been to someone who knows revolvers. It has the best double action pull I have ever felt and is, I believe, Magnaported. The vents are trapezoidal which is indicative of Magnaport. I would pay her whatever she would want for it. Unfortunately it is her favorite revolver so I will not make the request when the time comes.
You mentioned lever guns and fortunately there is a perfect companion piece. Browning made a Model 92 in .357. These are beautifully made rifles in one of JMBs classic designs. I don't and never have owned one in .357 but I do have one in .44 Mag. that is a companion piece for a 29-2. I carried the '92 loaded with herky .44 Mag loads and the 29 with .44 Spec. loads at about 750FPS. Between the two I never felt I was lacking for anything where I live and that includes everything from elk to grouse.
A couple of more comments that are entirely personal. I have no idea concerning your age but if you have "old eyes" a four inch gun is easier to shoot than a six inch gun. If you have good eyesight the obverse is true. A good revolver deserves a good holster. A great holster is the Tom Three Persons from El Paso Saddlery. If your shoulders are OK the 3'oclock, thumb snap holsters are classics. If your old and grungy the same holster can be made in a crossdraw which are ideal if horseback or in and out of vehicles. A little leather carving on these means you have an instant barbecue gun.
@Quarter Horse Thank you for the heads up on the Browning 92. I've been keeping an eye out for Marlin 1894 .357. They are out there so its a toss up which gets purchased first. The lever gun or the revolver. I really like my Marlin 336 and the action design of the Marlin so wasn't looking for any Winchesters. Leatherwork I'll just fabricate it myself. In fact just got done building a saddle style holster, belt, and speed loader pouches for a friend for his 686. His was the one I fired and said to myself, "Self, you need one of these." Eye sight is good. Had Lasik and now 15/20 in both eyes. Creeping up on mid 40's and don't need readers yet, but I am sure it is coming.
You are probably correct about the 586 vs the 686, but if I find a beautiful dark blued, walnut grip 586-4 I would be hesitant to stick it on my hip and go beating sagebrush, junipers trees, and other assorted desert scratchy plants running thru the wadis and high desert brush here in AZ. A stainless 686 I wont worry about fucking up the bluing. Of course at some point I am sure I will find a beautiful blue 586 and it will follow me home.
You are probably correct about the 586 vs the 686, but if I find a beautiful dark blued, walnut grip 586-4 I would be hesitant to stick it on my hip and go beating sagebrush, junipers trees, and other assorted desert scratchy plants running thru the wadis and high desert brush here in AZ. A stainless 686 I wont worry about fucking up the bluing. Of course at some point I am sure I will find a beautiful blue 586 and it will follow me home.
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I've got a pair of pre lock 686's, a 2.5" and a 4". They're our hunting sidearms and IMO, they're hard to beat for that purpose. I'd love to get some shorter barrel 66s, however I live in CA and they're a PITA to find.
I don't think you can go wrong with the Marlin 1894C or CB. It's interesting that the Win. 92 and the Marlin 1894 both come from the same time period and neither was designed in house by the manufacturer. Both the Marlin and Browning can have feeding problems if using .38 Spec. You said you weren't going to reload for them so have a friend make you some .38 Special dummy rounds to check whatever you're looking at.
I didn't address checking a used gun because there are endless tolerances you can check and many that require disassembly. I can't comment on the MWay video as my net service is so slow it won't download. Here are some simpler checks. I'm sure the video addressed timing but maybe not in this manner. When you pull the hammer back, either D/A or S/A put you finger on the cylinder lightly to restrict but not stop it's movement. When you cock the hammer quickly the cylinder the cylinder has mass and speed and will advance to the position where the cylinder stop engages regardless of whether the hand advances it that far or not. Check to see if there is play in the fitment of the crane or yoke. Check for end play or shake. Remove the grips and check for a serial number and if a blued gun you will sometimes find corrosion.. Open the yoke and spin the cylinder while watching the ejector rod. Eccentric movement means there is a bend. Much more is made of "out of time" than you are likely to see in anything after the 1stWW. The expectation that a Smith will have no movement after the cylinder stop is engaged is not reasonable even in an earlier gun. The only S&W I own that has virtually no movement is a 29-2 that I have that I've had for well over four decades. It's probably only had three or four hundred rounds of heavy magnum loads through it but it's had thousands of .44 Spec. and is still tight as a tick. My eternal thanks to the craftsman that put it together. If a Smith is actually out of time there is probably something broken.
Something to always check is the gap between the face of the cylinder and barrel. If you go to the S&W Forum some one will give you the minimum and maximum clearances. It only takes a set of feeler gauges to check this and no disassembly required. I have seen both Smiths and Colts go down because of this. One N frame that a friend owns takes only about a hundred from clean to enough crud to lock the gun up.
One last thing is ammo. Most white box .38 Spec is crap just like 9mm. Even then it is never cheap. Here is a resource for reman. .38 Spec. 148gr. HBWC. I have used it in my Pythons and S&Ws and it has excellent accuracy and has been 100% reliable to date. It's about half the price of a good buy on new manufacture HBWC. https://www.precisiondelta.com/prod...ctured-ammunition/?revpage=3 #product-reviews.
So there you have it. Let us know what you decide on.
I didn't address checking a used gun because there are endless tolerances you can check and many that require disassembly. I can't comment on the MWay video as my net service is so slow it won't download. Here are some simpler checks. I'm sure the video addressed timing but maybe not in this manner. When you pull the hammer back, either D/A or S/A put you finger on the cylinder lightly to restrict but not stop it's movement. When you cock the hammer quickly the cylinder the cylinder has mass and speed and will advance to the position where the cylinder stop engages regardless of whether the hand advances it that far or not. Check to see if there is play in the fitment of the crane or yoke. Check for end play or shake. Remove the grips and check for a serial number and if a blued gun you will sometimes find corrosion.. Open the yoke and spin the cylinder while watching the ejector rod. Eccentric movement means there is a bend. Much more is made of "out of time" than you are likely to see in anything after the 1stWW. The expectation that a Smith will have no movement after the cylinder stop is engaged is not reasonable even in an earlier gun. The only S&W I own that has virtually no movement is a 29-2 that I have that I've had for well over four decades. It's probably only had three or four hundred rounds of heavy magnum loads through it but it's had thousands of .44 Spec. and is still tight as a tick. My eternal thanks to the craftsman that put it together. If a Smith is actually out of time there is probably something broken.
Something to always check is the gap between the face of the cylinder and barrel. If you go to the S&W Forum some one will give you the minimum and maximum clearances. It only takes a set of feeler gauges to check this and no disassembly required. I have seen both Smiths and Colts go down because of this. One N frame that a friend owns takes only about a hundred from clean to enough crud to lock the gun up.
One last thing is ammo. Most white box .38 Spec is crap just like 9mm. Even then it is never cheap. Here is a resource for reman. .38 Spec. 148gr. HBWC. I have used it in my Pythons and S&Ws and it has excellent accuracy and has been 100% reliable to date. It's about half the price of a good buy on new manufacture HBWC. https://www.precisiondelta.com/prod...ctured-ammunition/?revpage=3 #product-reviews.
So there you have it. Let us know what you decide on.
God, this brought back a great memory. 1970, N. Syracuse in December, obviously snow on the ground, I'm 14 and need ammo to go shooting next day, Sunday. Dad's at work, Mom has to watch younger brother so Grammother says she would walk with me to Fields to buy a brick of .22's. Great time, store clerk asks Gramm, everyone called her that, what year she was born, answer is 1896. Clerk stops writing and asks her if she is really going shooting? She said yes, she was, now can we complete the sale? Dang it, she really went with Dad and I Sunday and shot my Win 131 prone on a mat in the snow! Everybody loved her, all the way till she passed away in 1986. Still miss her, thanks Gramm!
I “hate” my Ruger 5” SP 101, I’m trying to wear it out so nobody ever has to own a gun that shoots everything it eats and hits plates at 25yds with ease.
Here I am trying to wear it out with some home brew .38s at 1000fps.
Here I am trying to wear it out with some home brew .38s at 1000fps.
Bender, another great unsung blaster, just like my early '90's Taurus 669. love the full underlug barrel look. My 669, like yours, eats everything, still locks up and shoots great, but as soon as people see it isn't a Smith, of which I also have, meh. Their loss, not mine. Gonna buy a Dillon this year and really see what will happen.
I don’t mind Taurus at all. Lately Taurus has had nicer blue jobs than some Smiths I’ve seen. I’ve had a few Tauri and save for one new poly auto, they have been great. My absolutely favorite auto 9mm is a Taurus PT-99, a Berretta 92 copy that I feel is actually superior to the original because of the 1911 style frame mounted safety instead of being up on the slide, out of reach from your thumb. The PT-99 has never jammed on me and will single hole at 7 yards.
i just can’t do taurus. i tried to like them, i really did. 38 snub i bought for my (then) wife had an action as shitting and gritty as gravel. seriously. then the raging bulls came out, and i was one of the first to have one. i absolutely LOVE the design, but that gun would not fire d.a.. at all. i was really tempted here at a gun show by a taurus 41 magnum tracker, but i just couldnt do it. with the shitty quality control i have experienced 100% of the time with taurus, and their horrible reputation for service, i just couldnt do it.
and it really sucks...cause i really like the design of the raging bull and the tracker. it’s too much money to get fucked around on. smith, ruger...they are going to fix any issue, IF you have one. taurus? i have zero confidence in them.
and it really sucks...cause i really like the design of the raging bull and the tracker. it’s too much money to get fucked around on. smith, ruger...they are going to fix any issue, IF you have one. taurus? i have zero confidence in them.
Smoother than any Smith too.
Okay, so you're a Smith fanboy, and/or you have a bias against Colt.right up until you shoot it next to a smith and wesson. that’s the mistake i made...sold the python, still have the 586...and a few other smiths.
If not, then why not a Trooper? Or a Colt Model 357?
I'm old school, and I'd take a Colt over a Smith any day. I'd take a Dan Wesson over a Smith too. But if I had only Smith's to choose from, it would be a 19 or a 28. If SS was necessary, then a 66.
fanboy? not how i understand the definition. do i appreciate a smith? yup. just as i do any fine revolver. bias against colt? nope. none at all. but no favortism, either.
i shot the smith and the python expecting the python to run circles around the smith.....nope. just the opposite. shot a king cobra as well, my buddy still owns it. but in all honesty, the smiths flat out performed the colts, and the dan wessons i put them against.
there are a few things i would change about the smith and wessons, i think the dan wesson design features are awesome and i’d love to see smith adapt some of them. like the allen head screws. and the tensioned barrels. and the way you can change sights.
i appreciated the colts, too. it’s just that the smiths beat them side by side. there was ONE way the colt beat the smith.......and i really appreciated that... resale value. i probably made more on that colt than any other gun i sold.
i shot the smith and the python expecting the python to run circles around the smith.....nope. just the opposite. shot a king cobra as well, my buddy still owns it. but in all honesty, the smiths flat out performed the colts, and the dan wessons i put them against.
there are a few things i would change about the smith and wessons, i think the dan wesson design features are awesome and i’d love to see smith adapt some of them. like the allen head screws. and the tensioned barrels. and the way you can change sights.
i appreciated the colts, too. it’s just that the smiths beat them side by side. there was ONE way the colt beat the smith.......and i really appreciated that... resale value. i probably made more on that colt than any other gun i sold.
Screw yer Python. KORTH OR GTFO.
Just kidding. KORTH is now less expensive than a Python!!!!
Just kidding. KORTH is now less expensive than a Python!!!!
I was gonna say, for the price of. Python, you could have a korth. Now I suppose the colt fans are gonna come after me for that.
If the python couldn't beat the 586, is sure as hell ain't go na beat the korth
Well, I now have a 686. I had time to waste and popped into a pawn shop in downtown PHX. They had a clean looking 686-6 with 4" barrel. I kinda had my heart set on a dash 4 after talking to you all so I wasn't quite ready to pull the trigger on this one. Salesperson said at least throw out an offer so I lowballed the shit out of it. Surprise, surprise they accepted so I had a 686 follow me home. I can try to post pics but I'm sure everyone knows what the damn things look like.
Now, for grips. This one came with the black rubber grips. The finger grooves are nice, but it feels very "skinny" in my hands and doesn't fill the palm swell very well. What says the hive mind on grips? Any in particular you like, especially for those that are ham fisted?
Now, for grips. This one came with the black rubber grips. The finger grooves are nice, but it feels very "skinny" in my hands and doesn't fill the palm swell very well. What says the hive mind on grips? Any in particular you like, especially for those that are ham fisted?
Mustang is out of business now (due to an ugly divorce), but they are tops. All that's out there now is "new old stock" and "pre-owned". There's a set on Ebay right now that might fit the bill.
Mustang smooth walnut finger groove combat grips & screw N frame Smith & Wesson | eBay
Please scroll down to see all the pictures below. PLEASE **** READ ALL OF THE DESCRIPTION, IT IS IMPORTANT. NO personal or business checks. I DO NOT ship outside the 50 United States. Mustang smooth walnut finger groove combat grips with screw to fit any large SQUARE BUTT "N" frame Smith &...
www.ebay.com
Huh? Tewksbury, MA. Probably a 15 minute ride from home. Never knew.
What was Willi Korth doing in the 1939 - 1945 time period?
Yep looks like the distributor is local to me in MA though....
http://www.korthusa.com/aboutus_en.htm
I’m buying a 686-4 on the 20th. Gun doesn’t look used at all. I’ll post picks when I get it
Congrats on the purchase. Most of my Smiths wear Ahrends wood grips and of his different models it seems to me the Retro Combats are the most full figured (pictured on my N frame 625).
However, I did go with dual density rubber Pachmayr Diamond Pro grips on my 629PC 44mag snubbie in order to help tame recoil, which they do very well, and seem to be well suited for large paws and relatively inexpensive to boot. If I can find a pic of those I'll post it up later, but you can google it - I think I bought some off Amazon for less than $25
Thank you. I will check out the packmayr's. I suspect the wood grips are something I will have to go and wrap my paws around before deciding due to cost. *sigh. Looks like I'm going to have to go to a local gun show, wade thru the mouth breathers and bubbas to try and get a feel in my hand of as many grips as possible before deciding on a pair. I suspect grips are going to be like holsters. you end up with a box full of different ones until you find the one that works for you.
Wow man, you really opened up the can of worms, didn't you!
So pre lock... It's mostly an aesthetic thing but it also came out after MIM parts if that's a deal for you. I have a pre-lock 686+ 6", it's 7 shot beast, the pure definition of a revolver in it's essence. I think mine is a -5 and does have the MIM parts. It also has the lightest trigger I've ever shot and I have no idea how it got that way with those parts, but it did. I'll NEVER sell that revolver. I once hit an E type on the 300m berm, five shot of seven, standing off handed. So I have a sweet spot for that one.
There are gonna be a few different versions: The oldest one has the firing pin on the hammer. Some like this, I do not. Next is the firing pin in the frame, my preference. That one can be had with steel parts or MIM IIRC, it straddles the line there. All the lock models have the pin in the frame. It's a timeline and knowing how to decode S&W numbers is key (and pretty simple too).
I talked to some guys a long while back about a Korth I though maybe I'd get one. They're supposed to be the best revolver on the planet. And they are. Depending on how you look at it. Tightest tolerance, yes. More accurate, maybe. As reliable? Probably not due to the tolerance they said. More of a work of art I guess. Most of the Korth guys still loved S&W revolvers though.
A Colt Python or Anaconda is what you should probably look for. You'll probably wind up spending about as much for one as the other if you look close and are patient. They have better resale value and most definitely will down the road.
Post lock revolvers can have the lock disengaged, it's easy to do (you remove the flag and grind it down so it doesn't engage or jam anything up). The lock still looks like it did. Then I heard that now, FINALLY, you can order pistols from S&W without the damn lock, BUT I think they have to go through the custom shop. I could be wrong about that, it started as a way to offer 'em to cops without the lock. Thanks Cliton.
I disabled the lock on the scandium model I tote, I understand that one can be had without a lock now but at this point it's purely cosmetic. And I want a scandium .44, the 329 real bad... I'll live with the lock I guess. After I disable it. Bottom line, I wouldn't let some of the mfg. changes limit you on a revolver you really want. They've come a long way and some of the new stuff is truly amazing. Smith really does or has at some point "made it all".
So pre lock... It's mostly an aesthetic thing but it also came out after MIM parts if that's a deal for you. I have a pre-lock 686+ 6", it's 7 shot beast, the pure definition of a revolver in it's essence. I think mine is a -5 and does have the MIM parts. It also has the lightest trigger I've ever shot and I have no idea how it got that way with those parts, but it did. I'll NEVER sell that revolver. I once hit an E type on the 300m berm, five shot of seven, standing off handed. So I have a sweet spot for that one.
There are gonna be a few different versions: The oldest one has the firing pin on the hammer. Some like this, I do not. Next is the firing pin in the frame, my preference. That one can be had with steel parts or MIM IIRC, it straddles the line there. All the lock models have the pin in the frame. It's a timeline and knowing how to decode S&W numbers is key (and pretty simple too).
I talked to some guys a long while back about a Korth I though maybe I'd get one. They're supposed to be the best revolver on the planet. And they are. Depending on how you look at it. Tightest tolerance, yes. More accurate, maybe. As reliable? Probably not due to the tolerance they said. More of a work of art I guess. Most of the Korth guys still loved S&W revolvers though.
A Colt Python or Anaconda is what you should probably look for. You'll probably wind up spending about as much for one as the other if you look close and are patient. They have better resale value and most definitely will down the road.
Post lock revolvers can have the lock disengaged, it's easy to do (you remove the flag and grind it down so it doesn't engage or jam anything up). The lock still looks like it did. Then I heard that now, FINALLY, you can order pistols from S&W without the damn lock, BUT I think they have to go through the custom shop. I could be wrong about that, it started as a way to offer 'em to cops without the lock. Thanks Cliton.
I disabled the lock on the scandium model I tote, I understand that one can be had without a lock now but at this point it's purely cosmetic. And I want a scandium .44, the 329 real bad... I'll live with the lock I guess. After I disable it. Bottom line, I wouldn't let some of the mfg. changes limit you on a revolver you really want. They've come a long way and some of the new stuff is truly amazing. Smith really does or has at some point "made it all".
D
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You almost nailed my favorite 2 revolvers in the world with the ones you first mentioned. The only tweak I would make is that the balance of the 3" heavy barrel is so beautifully perfect for an everyday revolver. There are some 3" Model 66 and 686 out there that are old police guns. 3" heavy barrels were popular for police at the time.
There is also the 3" Ruger Speed Six, which was a beautifully balanced and smoothed over pistol. It was made for carry and had all the sharp corners and edges removed.
For day to day use I prefer the Pachmayr Decelerators. Mine are old and pre-Lyman. Apparently they have a new material but the pictures look similar. If you want to dress the 686 up look at Craig Spegel's site. I've had a pair of the cocobolo boot grips on a round butt 2 1/2" 66 for years and find them very comfortable.
http://www.craigspegel.com/
If the current grips on the 686 have finger grooves and cover the back strap they may be Decelerators. Push on the back strap portion, if it is quite soft they are Decelerators. They have air space behind the back strap. They do feel deep with the additional space but you'll find them easy to shoot.
Now that you've got your 686, try the DA on a Python. You'll wonder what the hell everyone's talking about.
http://www.craigspegel.com/
If the current grips on the 686 have finger grooves and cover the back strap they may be Decelerators. Push on the back strap portion, if it is quite soft they are Decelerators. They have air space behind the back strap. They do feel deep with the additional space but you'll find them easy to shoot.
Now that you've got your 686, try the DA on a Python. You'll wonder what the hell everyone's talking about.
These must not be decelerators on there. I think they are hogue made for S&W since they have the S&W logo on them. The steel backstrap is visible about 3/4 of the way down. I believe I have a square tang, but will remove the grips to see.
First, I am not a Python hater. We've had a four and six inch for many decades and they are great revolvers. The double action pull on an L frame and a Python are completely different in feel. The 'Smith feels as if the weight of pull is even and smooth throughout the pull. The Colts trigger starts off light and then stacks until it is significantly heavier at the end of the pull. Guy's shooting Pythons would pull through to that stacked point, then hold til the revolver settled and then shoot with what was essentially a quarter inch double action travel. It works like a two stage trigger on a rifle. There is also an audible "click" with the Python that is just when the trigger reaches the hold point. I can't remember whether the click was audible back in the day before electronic muffs.
Both the S&W and Colt are OK if you pull through the DA quickly. Both have great SA pulls. I prefer the smoother and lighter DA pull of the L frame. You know how your L frame feels. Try a Python and tell us your conclusions. If I have time to stack and hold for DA than I have time to cock and use SA.
My favorite stocks are Herretts. If you truly have large hands, the Bill Jordan Trooper stocks are the classic. Another wonderful pair were designed by Skeeter Skelton. Herretts are made from a tracing of your hands. I hope all know of Jordan and Skelton. They favored revolvers.
I think the dash 6’s have round butts, some of those Hogues are round-to-square conversions. Post up some pics of your new wheelie - we like pics!
I use Colt simi autos exclusively. That being said, the really knowledgeable revolver guys of yesteryear used Smith revolvers.
Ed McGivern, Bill Jorden, Elmer Keith and many lesser known but equally knowledgeable shooters.
Ed told a friend that he could get every Colt he wanted given to him. He preferred to purchase Smiths.
Something to consider.
Ed McGivern, Bill Jorden, Elmer Keith and many lesser known but equally knowledgeable shooters.
Ed told a friend that he could get every Colt he wanted given to him. He preferred to purchase Smiths.
Something to consider.
I will see if I can figure out how to post some pics. I usually just keep my mouth shut and learn here on the hide.
Old texas lawman i knew told me he showed up with a nice new python and one of the older officers bet him a steak dinner that he couldnt rapid fire an entire box (50) of magnum loads without the python freezing up on him from the heat. He said he had to buy that steak dinner for him as he lost the bet. He carried a smith from there on out.
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