Rifle Scopes Looking for new glass for department issued rifles.

[Breacher]

My department has two REMINGTON 700 POLICE .308 WIN. TWS packages. Our Leupold 3.5x10 scopes just have the duplex reticles in them. I am starting to look for scopes with slightly more magnification and a better reticle. I have been looking in the 4x14 range. Budget is around $1,200. Not really having learned MOA / MIL ranging I am open to reticles. However I am having an easier time understanding and calculating the MOA scopes. Maybe the MIL system just hasn't really been explained very well to me. I have been looking at two scopes recently.

The first and so far favorite is the Nightforce 4-14 x 56 SHV with the MOAR reticle.

SHV | Nightforce Optics, Inc.

The second is the Leupold Mark 4 ER/T 4.5-14x50mm (30mm) M5 Front Focal undecided on reticle

Leupold Optics Mark 4 ER/T 4.5-14x50mm (30mm) M5 Front Focal - | Leupold Optics

I'm not really sure a front focal plane is needed for our purpose though. Any thoughts on running a MOA/MOA scope as an issued scope? Or am I missing any better options out there?

Any help would be appreciated. Our basic sniper class was very basic and we learned nothing about equipment selection.

 

[buks]

I would keep some sort of standard within the department for the scopes and either go Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA.
Depending on the environment, most LE precision rifle engagements are inside 150 yards, so also consider your field
of view which generally shrinks as your magnification goes up.
Both tubes are 30mm so you may be able to use the scope rings that you have. The objective on the Nightforce is bigger (and may give you a little bit better light gathering capacity, for dusk/dawn shooting),
but you may need higher scope rings than what you currently have.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

If you are looking at the Leupold line, do yourself a favor and email Leupold for the LE price sheet if you do not already have it. I would also suggest you look at the Mark 6 3-18 in MIL/MIL with your choice of reticle. You are going to be getting better glass, though I will admit it is just a hair bit over your target price range, but not terribly so with the program.

I would suggest you go with MIL vs MOA as the reticles tend to be easier to read and work with than MOA. Both are simply a measurement system and you'll be using your reticle as a ruler. Front focal plane is a great feature to have and I would highly recommend it as it helps to eliminate one more thing to think about.

 

[BCP]

I would take that nightforce over that leupold.

 

[phlegm]

There is some contention over FFP vs SFP for the majority of police use. Unless you are an SO with wide open territories, you're likely to be closer than 100 yards most of the time. At lower magnifications that allow you to observe well, some FFP reticles can be almost useless. Just like most things, though, it matters more that you can use what you've got.

Contact the Nightforce MIL/GOV/LE office, too. They have a different pricing than retail.

Whatever you decide, approach the bean counters with your choice and a PMII. They'll love you for wanting the cheaper one.

 

[Breacher]

I am going off of the MIL/LE/GOV price lists on both.

To me the math on the MOA reticle seems like there is one lest step in ranging. I do not have to figure out the decimal equivalent of a yard when inputting the target size. I hate to swim against the current and go with a MOA/MOA scope when everybody else in the LE community runs MIL dot scopes. I plan on attending more training and worry it will hold me back. I just "get" the MOA system much better.

 

[Rthur]

Where in Illinois are you Breacher?


R

 

[Breacher]

Springfield

 

[Killswitch Engage]

If I were a po-po marksman I would have a second focal plane optic with matching reticle and turrets. Keeping that reticle same size across the board during low mag and low light is necessary I think.

 

[Crosshair]

A Nightforce 2.5-10x32 or 2.5-10x42 in either MOAR or Mil-R would be my choice for Leo duty rifle. The new SHV in MOAR reticle does look interesting too, though the NXS line has proven to be near bulletproof.

 

[Breacher]

A Nightforce 2.5-10x32 or 2.5-10x42 in either MOAR or Mil-R would be my choice for Leo duty rifle. The new SHV in MOAR reticle does look interesting too, though the NXS line has proven to be near bulletproof.

The NXS line would be my choice but I'm not footing the bill.

 

[CSTactical]

The Nightforce SHV are very nice and would do the job but I would recommend doing the NXS if you can swing it.

Mike @ CSTACTICAL

 

[FLIGHT762]

If I were a po-po marksman I would have a second focal plane optic with matching reticle and turrets. Keeping that reticle same size across the board during low mag and low light is necessary I think.

This ^^^^^^^^^^ is a very true statement. FFP isn't necessary for a L/E scope used in an urban area where most shots are within 100 yards. I do believe that Illumination is necessary for a L/E scope. The Nightforce NSX line works well. The only downside in the NSX is the illumination is set at one setting and can't be adjusted quickly. The old Illuminated Mark 4 Leupolds worked pretty well, but Leupold dropped the ball when they didn't match the Reticles and Turrets.

 

[hrfunk]

As a long time L/E Sniper, one thing I've come to understand is the importance of being flexible in terms of preparation for future operations. During the course of my career, I've set up as close as 25 yards, and as far away as 280 yards. In my last two deployments: I was at 54 yards last month on a barricade, and 196 yards 2 weeks ago on a high-risk warrant service. So I believe taking a SWAG at your "average" engagement distance and using that as criteria on which to base the selection of an optic (or a rifle for that matter) is less than optimal. I think a better way to go about it is to evaluate the extremes. At very close ranges, field of view becomes more important than magnification. At extended distances, target identification is tied to magnification and optical clarity; these qualities become ever more critical as range increases. So I would council against adherence to the old "Average law enforcement Sniper engagement distance" as a means for selecting your scope.

As far as MOA vs. Mils, either one is adequate. I think Mils are a little easier to master, but MOA is by no means unusable. Something you may want to consider, though, is your intended use for the reticle. That will help you to decide which style of reticle will best serve your purposes; and, it may help you decide on SFP vs. FFP. If, for example, you are only planning to use the reticle as an aid for zeroing the rifle and perhaps for range estimation in the field, a rather simple reticle in an SFP scope will probably work for you. That would also keep you from having a thick reticle at high magnification and/or a very small one at low magnification, and it would likely be a little less expensive. On the other hand, if you are planning to use it for moving target leads and holds for elevation and windage, you might require a more detailed reticle, and FFP is almost a must, given the fact that your reticle has to be properly calibrated at whatever magnification you are using on a given call-out.

Remember, operational parameters drive equipment selection; or at least they should. Look at your own environment; your minimum and maximum engagement distances; and, your expectations. That will guide you to the proper optic. One last thing, don't fall into the trap of trying to "shoe horn" one system into every operational scenario. I have 3 different systems that I deploy. The one I select for a given operation is based upon the circumstances of that incident. Your 700P's are good rifles. They have been serving L/E agencies well for years, but in a close-range and/or multiple bad-guy scenario (think meth lab or crack house), their high-magnification optics and relatively slow rate of fire could be a hinderance. In such a situation, you might be better off with a 1X-6X optic on a semi-auto platform. Chose the right tool for the job at hand, just something to think about.

HRF

 

[fdkay]

Mil/Mil tends to be far easier than moa/moa as it is a ten base.
Where folks have difficulty is they ask "how many inches is that?", when in reality, it does not matter

Regardless, whether you go moa or mil, as long as the adjustments match the subtensions is all that matters.
As far as FFP or SFP, I am a FFP guy, but after consideration, I decided that in the LE environment, SFP would better suit the job but FFP can certainly be used.
Many of the deployments are during low light situations and the ranges tend to be relatively short.
A full size reticle is more useful in these situations and illumination is required.
As far as magnification goes, I prefer somewhere around a 3-15 or 4-16.

Right now, I am running a Sightron 2.5-17.5 S-Tac. I was initially skeptical on running a Philippine made scope, but it has been working very well and it does two things I was specifically looking for. It focuses down to 10 yards and it has an illuminated dot vice illumination of the entire reticle or crosshairs.

The nightforce would be a good choice, it is a quality Japanese made scope, probably made at LOW. LOW makes other scopes, such as the Weaver Tactical.
Sightron SIII scopes are made in Japan and they have a moa/moa scope available with an illuminated reticle but it also tops out at 10X.

You may want to consider the Bushnell 3-12x elite tactical, it offers a tad more mag than your current setup, if you are okay with the 10X top end you have, you can have an moa reticle installed at the factory.

 

[BCP]

I'd think you'd want at least 14-15x and a recognized brand name. Nightforce does everything you are asking at the price you are asking (assuming you mean 1200 EACH) they have their base 3-15 model retailing for 1400 and stores will discount for LE, or two purchases etc. Zero stop might be a worthwhile feature too if you can swing it.

I don't know why people trust leupolds on police rifles. I have broken almost all of the leupolds I own and I am not hard on stuff at all. Just go to the range and go home 99% of the time, or walk to a hunting area and sit on my ass waiting for a deer or coyote. Nightforce or Bushnell from Light Optical (HDMR for example) are built like a brick shithouse compared to leupold and same or less money depending on model.

Just a hobbyists thoughts on the matter.

 

[remington patriot]

We ditched our old 10x leupold glass for the NF NXS 5.5-22x50. Having the extra power is great for observation. Having the illuminated reticle is huge for low light contrast. We ordered ours in the second focal plane and MOA/MOA with the MLR reticle. I could not be happier with the Nightforce.

 

[remington patriot]

Depending on how many guys are on your team get a few at a time until everyone is outfitted. We got four and still need four more. Since I did all the work on them I made sure I got one.

 

[awonder]

Don't discount vortex optics and they give departments 40% off MSRP plus free shipping to your PD.
The PST 4-16 mil/mil is a sweet setup.

 

[USACS]

NightForce has LE pricing and the NXS 3.5-15x50 is going to be just a hair over you budget. My recommendation would be to try and appropriate a couple extra bucks. Contact NF for a T&E model to try out. Put it up against other scopes if you can get other T&E models from other companies.
We put the NXS T&E model we got up against the Mark4s we had, and the NXS cleaned house. Just a far better optic. The new Mark6 scopes are supposed to be phenomenal, but the lack of illumination (now just insanely expensive illumination) at the time was a deal-killer since we are not using NV yet.

 

[JoeDanger]

It has been my experience that I use the bottom end of my magnification range more than I use the top end on operations. My rifle has a 3.5-10 Leupold on it (came that way before I had any say in our equipment), and sometimes that 3.5 seems like too much. Certainly, there are times when higher magnification is a great tool for observation. However, the ability to scan a wider area at lower magnification is just as critical to fast target acquisition, and, let's face it, bad guys don't like to give you a good, long time to line up a shot on them.

I work in a county with a lot of wide open spaces, but also a fair amount of urban area as well. I am comfortable with the 10x in being able to make fairly consistent shots to 700 yards when I do my part.

If you are able to swing a couple of hundred extra dollars, the 3.5-15 NF is a great choice, and should probably get everything you need accomplished. SFP and FFP both have their pros and cons, but I think SFP is a little better suited for what I need--YMMV. The only time the FFP is a little more handy is doing moving targets.

 

[samnev]

Since most of you shot will most likely be at short ranges I would go wit a SFF NXS scope of your choice. I find the FFP reticle subtensions almost unusable at magnifications less than 5X.

 

[Breacher]

Thanks everybody for all the good info. I have been looking at all the NF reticles and playing around on shooterready.com with the whole Mil vs MOA for ranging. I understand that either system will work just fine. I'll let you guys know what we end up with. I do know it will be SFP and have illumination. Liking the MOAR reticle and the MLR reticle. The MIL-R reticle looks phenomenal just out of our price range in the scopes it is offer in. I will say that I have learned more on this site than I had in my basic sniper class when it comes to ranging.

 

[Shoottothrill]

Breacher the MIL system is so easy a caveman could do it and will streamline your training for the future of the department. You don't have to think in inches or meters at all. It's as simply as range your target, I hope your using a laser range finder and not your scopes, input range into ballistic calculator and dial number of MILS to be dead on. I can't imagine a reason why a police marksman would need to range with his/her scope. It will never be as accurate as a laser range finder, especially as distance increases. If you already know your drop in MILS for your particular rifle, which you should before you ever take it on a call out, then range and dial and your done. Ten seconds max.

 

[JesseSB]

This fits your criteria, but an NXS would be a nice upgrade if the budget allows.


cstactical

 

[fdkay]

This fits your criteria, but an NXS would be a nice upgrade if the budget allows.

cstactical

Gee, that's almost exactly like the NF SHV that he linked in his original post.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

How often does an LE sniper engage moving targets? At what kind of ranges?

I understand no hard and fast answer to this, but I've got no idea...just wondering how much you trade off going with a 2nd FP. I already know how much "reticle usefulness" you trade off with a 1st FP at lower power.

 

[Graham]

Can't really answer that, but unless there are multiple moving targets at different ranges, and you have to dial magnification while engaging them, FFP is not necessary in a LE scope.

 

[hrfunk]

Moving targets are definitely doable with a SFP scope. It's just not quite as precise as with an FFP.

HRF