F T/R Competition looking to get started, cant find a few answers in existing posts.

[JetJon]

so i have been interested in trying some competition shooting, only recently heard about F-Class. Palma just not being my bag.

unfortunately i heard about F-Class after i made a big purchase, a savage 110BA in .338LM i love the rifle, and have slowly been putting together shinny bits (atlas bipod/monopod, glass, reloading supplies and whatnot) i am a student, with a very restricted budget so i do expensive builds slowly.

so questions, i realize i need to compete in open if i want to use the .338 LM. wight restrictions and stuff i get. i even realize i will need to remove the muzzle break. but the requirement to be single fed, i dont normally use the box mag, but the savage is equipped with a DBM and i typically just single feed anyway is the presence of a DBM going to hinder me?

also is there anywhere I can look for a reasonable schedule of events so i can plan on being at some of them.

and lastly, i am in Prescott Arizona, is there anyone in the region or a group i can attach myself to and ask loads of silly questions?

thanks for everyone's help. i hope to get deeply into competing with the rest of you shortly.

 

[JBD56]

Depending on the magazine, you should be able to get an insert for the magazine to make single feeding easier. That will be NASTY to shoot a 60 round match without the muzzle break!!

 

[Willbas]

with the .338lm you have to enter F Open 22lb max for rifle and scope and no muzzle brakes

so i have been interested in trying some competition shooting, only recently heard about F-Class. Palma just not being my bag.

unfortunately i heard about F-Class after i made a big purchase, a savage 110BA in .338LM i love the rifle, and have slowly been putting together shinny bits (atlas bipod/monopod, glass, reloading supplies and whatnot) i am a student, with a very restricted budget so i do expensive builds slowly.

so questions, i realize i need to compete in open if i want to use the .338 LM. wight restrictions and stuff i get. i even realize i will need to remove the muzzle break. but the requirement to be single fed, i dont normally use the box mag, but the savage is equipped with a DBM and i typically just single feed anyway is the presence of a DBM going to hinder me?

also is there anywhere I can look for a reasonable schedule of events so i can plan on being at some of them.

and lastly, i am in Prescott Arizona, is there anyone in the region or a group i can attach myself to and ask loads of silly questions?

thanks for everyone's help. i hope to get deeply into competing with the rest of you shortly.

 

[DanSavage]

Depending on the magazine, you should be able to get an insert for the magazine to make single feeding easier. That will be NASTY to shoot a 60 round match without the muzzle break!!

And mighty expensive, for a student on a budget.

 

[cornhusker]

what they said......you be better off with a 223 to stsrt with...

 

[Lowlight]

I would suggest going to Gunsite, taking one of their Precision Rifle Classes, asking a metric ton of questions and getting your money's worth of knowledge in the process.

It's cheaper to get properly educated on the subject of precision rifles as they are not cheap, and then you can start off on the right foot from the beginning rather than making a series of expensive mistakes.

Gunsite is just down the road from you, and is worth the time and investment

 

[gme]

There's a group that holds a weekly long range practice match at Ben Avery range, Rick Curtis is the organizer, pretty much all F class and sling shooters, you'll learn a lot from them.

 

[JetJon]

I would suggest going to Gunsite, taking one of their Precision Rifle Classes, asking a metric ton of questions and getting your money's worth of knowledge in the process.

It's cheaper to get properly educated on the subject of precision rifles as they are not cheap, and then you can start off on the right foot from the beginning rather than making a series of expensive mistakes.

Gunsite is just down the road from you, and is worth the time and investment

i am not 100% new to precision shooting. i am new to competition shooting, and i never owned a rifle capable of shooting as far as i have wanted. the savage is that rifle, capable of shooting as far as i wanted.

unfortunately F-class sounds like a hell of a lot of fun and i already invested in the savage. Gunsite is out of the question, they charge my yearly budget for ammo and gun parts for a week long class and require 400 rounds of ammo, which they dont supply, and do not permit magnum rifles on their range. so yea, thats not really on the table, but as i said, i know the basics.

the biggest thing was if i would be able to fix the mag so it could be used in matches. i know full well the recoil will suck. i am a big guy and if i was worried about it i wouldn't have bought the rifle in the first place.

 

[JetJon]

what they said......you be better off with a 223 to stsrt with...

the problem is, i already have the rifle and might try to get into competitions with it. if i were to buy a rifle something in 6.5 creedmoor or similar is on my list. in fact i may hold off on my competition ideas until i buy a mid range rifle for the purpose of matches.

 

[cornhusker]

I know it's a tough act to get into..Cost is a big issue for me as well....Can't afford to practice

as much as I used to,having lost my part time job...But hang in there man..You'll make it...

 

[JBD56]

There's a group that holds a weekly long range practice match at Ben Avery range, Rick Curtis is the organizer, pretty much all F class and sling shooters, you'll learn a lot from them.

If Ben Avery is close, you may want to just show up and have a chat with the guys who are shooting and see if one of them may have a rifle that is a safe queen you could use for a while. We had a young college guy show up last year that didn't have the money to buy a rifle, but really wanted to shoot. Our club had a Savage .223 that he was able to use for the first year and a few of us chipped in reloading components and taught him how to reload. He was at my house several times learning the basics and figuring out how to make his rifle competitive. Most of us old guys want to see the shooting sports grow and the best way to make that happen is to bring young people into the sport and help them improve.

 

[steve123]

There's the AZPRC match in Ashfork. I think they'd allow 338L on the course since some of us have shot our big 30 cal magnums. The match is in transition since the originator moved to another state. August should be the first match with others running it but haven't heard anything yet.

I know of a couple groups of Phoenix shooters that go out into the desert and shoot steel. Maybe you'll get a invite.

 

[XTR]

You are going to spend more loading for a .338 in a yr than you will to buy a 223 or a 308.

- Brass for the 338 is 2x to 3x and much ($250/100 vs $75/100 for a 308)

- Powder, you will shoot 2x what a 308 does and almost 3x what a 223 does. I get about 140/lb with a 308, and about 250/lb with a 223, you are going to get about 90 bullets per pound with a 338. If you are buying bullets at $4 to $5 a shot, then you're talking about burning up $500 to $600 in one match.

- bullets, if you shoot Bergers you're looking at about 2x ($80/100 vs $50 for 308 and $30 for 223)

- Barrels - You are going to burn up a barrel on a 338 in about 900 shots. A typical two day weekend match is 100 to 120 record + sighters so 120 to 150 shots. You are going to burn up a barrel in about 6 months...

- Then the honkin kahuna RECOIL, I've personally seen one person attempt to shoot an unbraked Savage in a match, he only did it once, and I don't know for certain if he put all 20 down range before he quit. One thing is for certain, if you ever do it you'll be the center of attention on the line because everyone who can is going to come over to watch you get pummeled.

The 338L is a great round for its intended purpose, string fire with unlimited sighters and 20 shots for record in a 30 minute time period is not one of them. Don't take my word for it, go visit Ben Avery one morning, take a box of ammo, and shoot it up, prone, in less than 30 minutes. Now do that twice more that afternoon. If you can feed yourself then you're probably doing pretty well. I've fired 20 hopped up loads from my 45-70 in one session and I couldn't shoot again for two weeks until the bruises healed.

 

[diego-ted]

I can single feed my BA 110 with no problem, but cost to shoot is another animal all together! I say go try it, that is the only way to see for yourself.

Diego

 

[scotharr]

Hey Jetjon,

I'm part of the Phoenix F-Class crew and my family participates in all the Ben Avery, PRGC, and Rio matches. This website shows our schedule: http://www.desertsharpshooters.com/calendars

Couple of thoughts for you:
1. 338 Lapua and student on a budget wanting to compete......does not compute. A student on a budget should have a 223 REM. In our last match, the winning F-TR score was a 595-27X (223REM) and the winning F-Open score was 595-31X (.284)...a 223REM can shoot.
2. No brake & 338: you won't do that more than once or twice. Here in Phx, there are zero regular F-Class shooters using a cartridge greater than .30 cal.....zero. We had one gentlemen show up with an unbraked 338LM for two matches in a row. He did amazingly well (middle of pack) considering the obvious abuse he was taking. Haven't seen him since. That is not the right rifle for F-Class...plain and simple.
3. You've got 2 choices in F-class: F-Open & F-TR. F-Open is going to be a lot more expensive: gear and ammo-wise. F-TR is restricted to 308WIN & 223REM. Student on budget = F-TR

Feel free to PM me if you want more info about Phx F-Class matches, but my advice is to get a 223 REM in a R700 SA or Savage (8 twist or faster).

Regards,
Scott

 

[JetJon]

some great advice here. thanks for that. i guess i should explain a little more as the big issue seems to be recoil and cost.

i got the 110ba so i could make mile + shots. the idea of doing f-class came about when i learned about it via the reviews for the nightforce competition 2014. sounds like a blast, i have since been digging through the rulebooks and trying to find local groups to hang around and try to learn a few things.

i admit, i still need a proper glass, and choosing to go with a latest production competition scope centered largely around the idea of getting into f-class. if i need to go to a smaller rifle, i was eventually planning on a "mid range" rifle chambered somewhere in the 6.5/.270 range. would it be better in the short term to get something in .308 i can rechamber later to the desired f-open cartridge? i suppose i can put off getting high end glass specifically for the 110ba, and just have the nightforce to compete with.

i will try to visit the matches and see what i can learn and who i can meet.

 

[scotharr]

If you can afford a NF competition scope, then you can also afford a custom rifle. So, do whatever suits you. On the other hand, if you are actually on a student budget, a Weaver T-24 at around $400 is a great starter F-Class scope that is very reliable and capable. Based on your questions, your best bet is to show up for a few matches and look at what people are using....practice not theory.

 

[JetJon]

so i went ahead and went out to test the idea that i could "deal with" recoil sans break. while it can be done, something tells me i would not enjoy the experience. hell i didnt enjoy the 5 shots i did today...

so i guess i will change my aim a tad, keep the 110BA for tactical style and extreme range shooting then get something to put me on the table for f-tr. remington 5R in .223 was suggested. i may have to look around for something with a bit faster twist in the barrel though.

 

[anon]

I like my 223 for F/TR. If you want to shoot 80 or 90 grain bullets you will need a faster twist than 1 in 9. It is disappointing how few factory rifles are available to shoot the 80 grain bullets. It's not like they just came out.

 

[joey fox]

If I were you I would look at a savage target action and get a prefit 223 barrel in the twist you need/want 1-7 or 1-8 twist from a barrel maker you prefer. You will be able to put the whole rifle together by yourself.Make sure you head space the barrel correctly. Start with that then later you can buy a prefit in the caliber you want to compete in f open. All you have to do is change barrel and bolt head if you stay with a short action caliber

 

[SWRichmond]

I shot my first year of F Class Long Range with a second hand .300WSM 26" bbl and a $300.00 Super Sniper 16X scope. It worked well enough to get started. I still have the scope (on another rifle), the freaking thing isn't the brightest but it works, and it is clear and very repeatable and consistent. I managed to shoot 188/200 at 1K twice with that rig, within the first year. You don't have to shit money to get started in this game, though there are plenty of folks who will be happy to take your money.

 

[JetJon]

i am currently leaning to the savage 12 f/tr chambered in .223 1:7 twist, price range more or less mid tier and good reviews as a starter. glass i figure something like a nightforce benchrest 8-32 to get me started, used they start around 900.

my budget is restricted, but i do save up money. i found its cheaper in the long run to buy high quality the first time.

 

[diego-ted]

If you are going to shoot FT\r I would go 308, much more consistant out to 1K, 223 will get there but with a lot more work! 308 and Juggernaughts and you will be in the hunt! JMHO.

Diego

 

[JetJon]

my thing is, i am here to do the work. and .223 should be a bit better for shorter ranges as well. cheaper to shoot, less recoil and yes, reading the wind is important. all in all i think its the better platform to learn on, and for me. i mean, i didnt buy the .338L for 1000 yard matches. i bought it so i could hit steel at 2500+ which takes a bit of work i understand.

 

[steve123]

If you are going to shoot FT\r I would go 308, much more consistant out to 1K, 223 will get there but with a lot more work! 308 and Juggernaughts and you will be in the hunt! JMHO.

Diego

Granted I'm not a FTR shooter but the 22 cal 90 grain Berger/.551 BC going 2700 fps is pretty much the same in the wind as the 30 cal Juggernauts at .56 going the same speed, right?

I don't see the downside for 223 with those bullets??? Also I wouldn't be surprised if a 2800 fps couldn't be achieved with a longer barrel.

 

[mrbig]

2800 with a 90 gr 223 Rem ????

 

[gstaylorg]

The 90 gr VLD has a G7 BC of .281 as compared to a G7 BC for the 185 Juggernaut of .283. So on paper they are quite close. I have recently been doing load development with them out of a 30" barrel and got slightly over 2900 fps at the high end of my charge weight test series. However, those charge weights were running slightly over pressure, and I think my final load will be closer to 2850-2860 fps when it's all said and done.

There are a few things that might be viewed as drawbacks to using the 90 VLDs. First, you need a really long freebore to load them properly. So long in fact, it is almost unusable for anything else. Most people find they like to be jammed around .010", so you need to monitor your throat/lands pretty regularly and adjust the seating depth accordingly. Because of the smaller case size, weighing powder very accurately is critical to get them to shoot well at long range, much more so than a .308 with 185s. Case prep is also very critical. Finally, if you're shooting F-TR with a .224 bullet, the holes in the target will definitely be harder for the scorer to spot. That may not seem like a huge issue, but it could mean some confusion with scoring and/or slower pit service. Having said all that, the idea of shooting a .223 Rem out to 1000 yd was simply to good to resist for me. So far, everything looks as good or better than I had hoped with this rifle, but only time will tell how that holds up at long range.

 

[JetJon]

The 90 gr VLD has a G7 BC of .281 as compared to a G7 BC for the 185 Juggernaut of .283. So on paper they are quite close. I have recently been doing load development with them out of a 30" barrel and got slightly over 2900 fps at the high end of my charge weight test series. However, those charge weights were running slightly over pressure, and I think my final load will be closer to 2850-2860 fps when it's all said and done.

There are a few things that might be viewed as drawbacks to using the 90 VLDs. First, you need a really long freebore to load them properly. So long in fact, it is almost unusable for anything else. Most people find they like to be jammed around .010", so you need to monitor your throat/lands pretty regularly and adjust the seating depth accordingly. Because of the smaller case size, weighing powder very accurately is critical to get them to shoot well at long range, much more so than a .308 with 185s. Case prep is also very critical. Finally, if you're shooting F-TR with a .224 bullet, the holes in the target will definitely be harder for the scorer to spot. That may not seem like a huge issue, but it could mean some confusion with scoring and/or slower pit service. Having said all that, the idea of shooting a .223 Rem out to 1000 yd was simply to good to resist for me. So far, everything looks as good or better than I had hoped with this rifle, but only time will tell how that holds up at long range.

i can tell you stories about pulling pits in 29 palms, one time i had 9 hits in black and one verified miss, i was pissed because i was shooting perfect all day and there is no fucking way i missed paper from 500, even with my M4. so yea hole size is a factor. but i assume people at matches are not as stupid as marines.

i am not a fan of 223 normally, fucking hated it as a military round. but one thing i can say is its accurate. and i love my .17 hmr simply because its low recoil, easy to shoot and accurate. so .223 seems like a viable 1000 yard alternative. and this will be a target only rifle so killing power is irrelevant.

lastly i dont really want to shoot match to win, i want to shoot match so i can challenge myself to shoot the best i can. so .223 seems to fit the bill as a starter f-t/r. unless that is someone comes up with a solid argument against it, and i have seen plenty of .223 compete strongly against .308 in matches so i cant see a reason not to start at .223 and sink like 2000$ into a match setup.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

A lot of the people at matches are Marines, and we get kinda hacked when folks make comments like your last post.

My natural tendency would be like, "Why should I tell him...", but that would be ungentlemanly, and my DI always told us, "The first thing a Marine is, is a gentleman". It was a different day and age... (and maybe there were a few cross fires that day, somewhere...).

My advice is, the.338LM was designed from the ground up as a Sniper chambering, and unless you're going into the Sniper business, you are seriously overgunned. The most useful purpose I'd be able to say would be to sell it and use the dollars to start over. But then again, this is a Marine talking...

Yes, the .223 is a good starter chambering, but a mile? Never... Here in the East, a mile is a daydream; out your way, we (Marine) Easterners sorta just drool gazing out at the expanses.

If I seriously wanted to shoot a mile I'd break out the .280 Rem with the long, 1:8" twist barrel (...but first I'd have to acquire it...). IMHO, the getter way to do the mile involves going down on the bullet diameter from .30cal, not up; there's a whole lot less unnecessary energy involved (unless, of course, you're shooting minute of bad guy...).

Actually, a 180gr-ish 7mm VLD does pack a respectable punch way out there..., and it's probably not gonna leave you quite so punchy after 60+ rounds. (Hint: If a sniper actually needed to shoot 60+ rounds out of a .338, he may also just need to go on sick call afterward...).

BTW, do you have a grasp on how few folks here have actually ever shot a mile, even once, I mean intentionally? I made it to 1Km, once; and that was almost a dozen tears ago, in NM.

I recently acquired a Savage .223 11VT (a special available only at Dick's Sporting Goods), and it's cheap ($550-$600), comes with a starter scope, and otherwise has about all the good you'd need (except that Bipod) for F T/R out to about 600yd. It can handle up to 75gr bullets (I load the HDY 75gr HPBTM) and I'd give you a load, but that's still in progress. I started with 23.5gr of Varget and it was nice enough to convince me that going a bit higher would be well worthwhile. The 75gr A-Max may be excessively long for the rifling twist.

I replaced my scope with a Mueller 8-32x44 mounted in Burris Medium Height 30mm Signature "Zee" Rings. These rings come with .010" offset inserts which can be used to add slope angle and/or correct windage arrors in the scope bases. My bipod is a UTI Tactical Bipod, which is designed for a Picatinny Rail, and comes with an adapter for use with sling studs.

These add-ons are adequate and affordable. They cruise a bit above the bottom feeders and work rather nicely for me. The scope resolves .22 bullet holes at 250yd and the side focus is a genuine step up. The stock comb is a bit low for this optics setup; I used the [URL="http://www.amazon.com/Beartooth-Stock-Comb-Raising-Kit/dp/B002L9G75K/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1406469559&sr=8-3&keywords=Bear+stock+riser"]Bearclaw Stock Riser Kit[/URL] to achieve a better cheekweld. It looks somewhat better than the alternatives

Do this right and you could have a beginner rifle with some potential for around $1000. They also sell it chambered in .308 Win. They also do .22-250, but that's not much of a Match caliber; it gets the barrel way too hot, way too fast. Come to think of it, there's no real reason why the .338 wouldn't do that also...

Greg

PS Diego Ted makes some good points, especially the one about you being the only one you need to beat.

 

[steve123]

The 90 gr VLD has a G7 BC of .281 as compared to a G7 BC for the 185 Juggernaut of .283. So on paper they are quite close. I have recently been doing load development with them out of a 30" barrel and got slightly over 2900 fps at the high end of my charge weight test series. However, those charge weights were running slightly over pressure, and I think my final load will be closer to 2850-2860 fps when it's all said and done.

There are a few things that might be viewed as drawbacks to using the 90 VLDs. First, you need a really long freebore to load them properly. So long in fact, it is almost unusable for anything else. Most people find they like to be jammed around .010", so you need to monitor your throat/lands pretty regularly and adjust the seating depth accordingly. Because of the smaller case size, weighing powder very accurately is critical to get them to shoot well at long range, much more so than a .308 with 185s. Case prep is also very critical. Finally, if you're shooting F-TR with a .224 bullet, the holes in the target will definitely be harder for the scorer to spot. That may not seem like a huge issue, but it could mean some confusion with scoring and/or slower pit service. Having said all that, the idea of shooting a .223 Rem out to 1000 yd was simply to good to resist for me. So far, everything looks as good or better than I had hoped with this rifle, but only time will tell how that holds up at long range.

About time Berger came out with a 90 hybrid!!!

Thanks for the info.

 

[diego-ted]

I can say once you start shooting your place on the score roster is in direct relation to you challenging yourself and doing the best you can. I can tell you from personal experience, I put a lot of credence into what the ballistic calculators say but I do not take them as gospel. I have shot the 6.5x47 with the 130 Berger vlds and they shoot flat and are precise out to 1000, but once the wind comes up and it will, there was no comparison to the 185 jugg no matter what JBM says! That is why all the open shooters are going with 7s and 300 wsms and not shooting the 90s. As far as I can tell the 90 is the only bullet that will hang out to 1k, I like the many choices with the 308, although the jugger is all you will ever need, just read up on them. Lastly, brass prep for the 308 is cut ant dry and with the juggers not being depth sensitive you can spend less time on prep and development and more time honing your skills.

 

[haroldwilson]

Biggest problem might be actually buying 90 gr Berger bullets.

 

[JetJon]

A lot of the people at matches are Marines, and we get kinda hacked when folks make comments like your last post.

My natural tendency would be like, "Why should I tell him...", but that would be ungentlemanly, and my DI always told us, "The first thing a Marine is, is a gentleman". It was a different day and age... (and maybe there were a few cross fires that day, somewhere...).

My advice is, the.338LM was designed from the ground up as a Sniper chambering, and unless you're going into the Sniper business, you are seriously overgunned. The most useful purpose I'd be able to say would be to sell it and use the dollars to start over. But then again, this is a Marine talking...

Yes, the .223 is a good starter chambering, but a mile? Never... Here in the East, a mile is a daydream; out your way, we (Marine) Easterners sorta just drool gazing out at the expanses.

If I seriously wanted to shoot a mile I'd break out the .280 Rem with the long, 1:8" twist barrel (...but first I'd have to acquire it...). IMHO, the getter way to do the mile involves going down on the bullet diameter from .30cal, not up; there's a whole lot less unnecessary energy involved (unless, of course, you're shooting minute of bad guy...).

Actually, a 180gr-ish 7mm VLD does pack a respectable punch way out there..., and it's probably not gonna leave you quite so punchy after 60+ rounds. (Hint: If a sniper actually needed to shoot 60+ rounds out of a .338, he may also just need to go on sick call afterward...).

BTW, do you have a grasp on how few folks here have actually ever shot a mile, even once, I mean intentionally? I made it to 1Km, once; and that was almost a dozen tears ago, in NM.

I recently acquired a Savage .223 11VT (a special available only at Dick's Sporting Goods), and it's cheap ($550-$600), comes with a starter scope, and otherwise has about all the good you'd need (except that Bipod) for F T/R out to about 600yd. It can handle up to 75gr bullets (I load the HDY 75gr HPBTM) and I'd give you a load, but that's still in progress. I started with 23.5gr of Varget and it was nice enough to convince me that going a bit higher would be well worthwhile. The 75gr A-Max may be excessively long for the rifling twist.

I replaced my scope with a Mueller 8-32x44 mounted in Burris Medium Height 30mm Signature "Zee" Rings. These rings come with .010" offset inserts which can be used to add slope angle and/or correct windage arrors in the scope bases. My bipod is a UTI Tactical Bipod, which is designed for a Picatinny Rail, and comes with an adapter for use with sling studs.

These add-ons are adequate and affordable. They cruise a bit above the bottom feeders and work rather nicely for me. The scope resolves .22 bullet holes at 250yd and the side focus is a genuine step up. The stock comb is a bit low for this optics setup; I used the [URL="http://www.amazon.com/Beartooth-Stock-Comb-Raising-Kit/dp/B002L9G75K/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1406469559&sr=8-3&keywords=Bear+stock+riser"]Bearclaw Stock Riser Kit[/URL] to achieve a better cheekweld. It looks somewhat better than the alternatives

Do this right and you could have a beginner rifle with some potential for around $1000. They also sell it chambered in .308 Win. They also do .22-250, but that's not much of a Match caliber; it gets the barrel way too hot, way too fast. Come to think of it, there's no real reason why the .338 wouldn't do that also...

Greg

PS Diego Ted makes some good points, especially the one about you being the only one you need to beat.

try not to get too upset, if you were a marine, then you know we have our fair share of idiots. or worse 03's who dont like that a "pog" is shooting high expert.

i have a range not 40 miles away that has steel at 2250 yards, and the primary range i shoot at is going to 800 yards by the end of the year, hopefully 1000, assuming the city lets them. and when i dont want to go to a club range i have half a dozen places i can shoot all the way to 3000 yards. i have the ranges, just need to develop the skills a little more.

as for the cal. i like .338, its available, the rifle was cheap (relatively) i have the ranges, and while i hope i never need to shoot a moving target, i like to at least have the "red dawn" option.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

try not to get too upset, if you were a marine, then you know we have our fair share of idiots. or worse 03's who dont like that a "pog" is shooting high expert.

i have a range not 40 miles away that has steel at 2250 yards, and the primary range i shoot at is going to 800 yards by the end of the year, hopefully 1000, assuming the city lets them. and when i dont want to go to a club range i have half a dozen places i can shoot all the way to 3000 yards. i have the ranges, just need to develop the skills a little more.

as for the cal. i like .338, its available, the rifle was cheap (relatively) i have the ranges, and while i hope i never need to shoot a moving target, i like to at least have the "red dawn" option.

'K

Greg