LOP / Trigger distance Question

[DJL2]

I threw up a couple photos to ask a question - how important is the distance from grip to trigger? One photo is the old “LOP from the crook of your arm” visualized (and about in line with the first knuckle on my trigger finger). The other photo shows how the relationship between the grip and the trigger “stretches” my finger when I’m actually on the rifle. I’d honestly never considered it - might just be a technique issue, too. My trigger finger posture was pretty uniform across three different stocks (the Game Scout you see, a KRG Bravo and a Tikka w/ vert grip bolt on) of substantially different length. If I weren’t having McMillan do another stock for me, I don’t think I’d even ask. I know some chassis let you adjust this and it strikes me that the optimal grip/trigger distance would differ person to person...but also that a LOT of very fine shooters have put the work in with whatever the industry standard is.

 

[Milemarker28]

I ran into the same issue with my A3 and Game Warden Stocks. This article helped me with some new fundamentals. Hope this helps!

Precision Rifle Marksmanship - Grip Technique :: Primal Rights, Inc

No matter your rifle, sighting method, firing position, or distance to target; Grip technique is one of the most important aspects of operating a precision rifle effectively.

www.primalrights.com

 

[b6graham]

I run a rather short LOP compared to the 'measurement' I should. We shoot positions. Not always on our belly. I find this helps more than I ever wish I had another " between stock and trigger

 

[DJL2]

Yeah, that McMillan is a T-Rex like 12.5 inch LOP and I love it. It might not be cool to shoot prone unsupported, or bladed over support with a hand on the forend of the rifle, but that’s what I got it to do (or shoot offhand in a pinch) and it is excellent for that. I figure it’s a lot easier to add length to a stock than take it away if it comes to that.

I appreciate the reference. It jives with what Frank wrote on the topic and which got me thinking about it. Simply put, with the second joint of my trigger finger at 90 degrees I can’t reach the trigger (or can I?). That’s what I was trying to show in the photos - granted, the one photo is rough looking because I have never attempted to do this deliberately. With a typical grip, I need a 45 degree bend in my second joint to reach the trigger. As near as I can tell, that’s totally independent from LOP.

I can play with my grip position and mocking something up on it to see what it would take to get my second joint to 90 degrees. The point of departure is that I DO pull the rifle into my shoulder. Some of that comes down to not giving my .30-06 or 7mm RM a head start because letting either of those do what they want in a <10lb package isn’t comfortable or consistent.

 

[DJL2]

This masterpiece of photography shows a grip I CAN get my second digit to 90 deg on. That’s my 6.8 AR w/ BCM Mod0 Gunfighter Grip (I.e. the smallest one they make, and a necessity for manipulating selector from semi to safe). There is some weirdness because I had to take the photo myself...but, should be a decent representation.

 

[Southern Custom]

I firmly believe length of pull is less important in bolt guns than grip fitment. We set these things up with the old crook of the arm and 90deg finger method but if the grip doesn’t fit your hand all that goes out the window. I would hope to see more companies come out with adjustable grips. I think length of pull is far more importing shotguns for wing shooting and clays.

 

[DJL2]

I’d never heard of working the trigger at 90 deg until recently when I started reading, trying to suck less after I realized my trigger manipulation was creating horizontal deviation in my groups. It seems like some dudes that know WTF they are talking about think it’s pretty important...and, yet, it’s basically impossible on most any rifle I’ve ever handled. The reach from the grip to the trigger is just too far.

I’ll shoot a note to Josh at McMillan and see if they can change that up. Stands to reason a guy built like a Dachshund doesn’t have the fingers to match an industry standard reach to the trigger any more than they fit the LOP.

 

[Steel head]

I firmly believe length of pull is less important in bolt guns than grip fitment. We set these things up with the old crook of the arm and 90deg finger method but if the grip doesn’t fit your hand all that goes out the window. I would hope to see more companies come out with adjustable grips. I think length of pull is far more importing shotguns for wing shooting and clays.

I concur

 

[CK1.0]

I'd say it's all about getting that clean straight-back trigger-press. You might have to try a few different things to find something that really fits you. You want your trigger-finger to be relaxed and have much of it's range of motion/articulation intact while at rest on the trigger and when in your grip... and for most, that usually lands about where you see that 90-degree thing happening. But, recognize if the grip/trigger doesn't fit you or not even if you like everything else about the stock/chassis, if that clean straight-back trigger-press ain't happening, keep it moving...

I would just keep checking out stocks/chassis until I found one that fit better rather than ordering one hoping it'll work. I agree with above that the manufacturers are behind on this.

 

[LV Precision]

Trigger distance on the firing hand is the #1 consideration I look for in a stock/chassis. Tried a lot of different models, and I've found the MDT ACC to feel perfect, with the MPA BA Comp a close 2nd (and XLR 3rd). Every other stock has way too far of a trigger distance, even newer ones like the Foundation Centurion, Manners TCS or MPA Matrix. I really want to like those stocks, but the trigger distance feels gigantic.

The ideal grip feels like a 2011 that allows for a perfect 90-degree trigger pull, and the right palm swell to allow for a comfortable, neutral hand position. MDT ACC with the OBI fat grip does that for me.

 

[DJL2]

@ceekay1 - I hear you. I think the question for me is “where can I order a custom grip to trigger setup?” If there is one thing I am convinced of at this point, it’s that I could search gun racks from now until my dying day and not find a stock that fits me. I know I’ve got a problem..and I know it’s not gear...I just don’t want the gear hurting more than it needs to.

The good news is that I do have a point of reference, at least. I just bought a Ergo TDX-0 to try...so, that’s something to look forward to for $40 delivered to generate some more data.

 

[KeithStone]

Been doing some thinking on this same issue for a gun I wanna get some more use out of. I have a browning x bolt I got a few years back don’t really care to invest in a stock due to their low aftermarket offerings. I’m picking up some modeling clay today and gonna mold it out to a form decreasing finger stretch and push the grip out a bit. Got a buddy that does some 3-D printing gonna see if he can replicate it out of some sort of poly.

 

[CK1.0]

@ceekay1 - I hear you. I think the question for me is “where can I order a custom grip to trigger setup?” If there is one thing I am convinced of at this point, it’s that I could search gun racks from now until my dying day and not find a stock that fits me. I know I’ve got a problem..and I know it’s not gear...I just don’t want the gear hurting more than it needs to.

The good news is that I do have a point of reference, at least. I just bought a Ergo TDX-0 to try...so, that’s something to look forward to for $40 delivered to generate some more data.

Yeah, I think the stock manufacturers are letting you down on this, but also think you're barking up the right tree with trying different grips...

It might mean you are kinda stuck picking a chassis over a traditional stock; but, in a way that's probably the best solution for a lot of people. I think many (including myself) sometimes think of the chassis systems as just a cool way to bolt on shit lol, but the ability to custom dial gun-fitment to the shooter is actually probably their greatest "pro".

It's funny, I actually have been sort of looking into options as far as burning some more money on a nicer stock/chassis... but I've come to really dig my lowly Bravo's grip, for whatever reason it fits my particular hand/trigger-placement perfectly and I haven't felt/found anything better, but again if it fits me perfect, then that means there's a bunch of people out there that it doesn't fit very well...
I wanted to order a Manners T4A but after I got to shoot and spend some time with one, the grip on the Bravo still wins for me, so I'm sticking with what I got until I find something that fits as good or better...

The stock manufacturers need to catch up to this IMO because it's not just about one-size-fits-most or LOP-adjustment and done, gun-fit including grip/trigger is huge.

Much of the trigger-press stuff is just like with shooting handguns well, and no one really has to settle for poor trigger fit anymore with those by swapping grips or with the interchangeable grips on the poly guns: different strokes for different folks, in USPSA you'll see CZ Shadow 2's with all kinds of different grips on them and the Glocks and such in every-size configuration...

 

[RFutch]

Magpul Pro 700 for the win. Adjustable grip length and comfortable as hell too.

 

[Gil P.]

I've got small hands, the best grip I've felt so far is on the KMW Sentinel, second an AI chassis.

I've got an A6 and I can still get my finger on the trigger pretty easily. It's not at 90 degrees, but workable.

 

[akmike47]

Semi large hands her (XL gloves) I have an Timney CE with the trigger pushed pretty far forward and a oversized OB Inc grip pulled back to fit me and a 15” LOP maybe more. I couldn’t be happier with the adjustability of a chassis

 

[Gil P.]

Semi large hands her (XL gloves) I have an Timney CE with the trigger pushed pretty far forward and a oversized OB Inc grip pulled back to fit me and a 15” LOP maybe more. I couldn’t be happier with the adjustability of a chassis

Which chassis are you using?

 

[gnochi]

It’s cheapest for manufacturers of single-piece stocks - regardless of material - to have bottom metal inletting entirely forward of the grip. Fastest tool paths, less material to cut away, don’t end up choosing between a giant cutout in the front of the grip and needing to machine either a plug or an undercut.

I’m sure you don’t have to have a chassis embedded in the stock instead of bottom metal, to have a usable grip while pulling the trigger without having gorilla hands, but I’ve only seen stocks-with-internal-chassis manage it.

I can’t speak for the folks doing intensive management of two-legged wildlife, but it seems to me like actually being able to grip the stock, instead of blading your main hand along the side of the grip and only really supporting the rifle with your support hand, would be beneficial to any sort of awkward shooting position activities, without preventing you from using very selective rifle contact during prone exercises.

 

[akmike47]

Which chassis are you using?

ACC it has a thicker spacer I was sent than what came on it and a slightly thicker pad also.

 

[DJL2]

It’s cheapest for manufacturers of single-piece stocks - regardless of material - to have bottom metal inletting entirely forward of the grip. Fastest tool paths, less material to cut away, don’t end up choosing between a giant cutout in the front of the grip and needing to machine either a plug or an undercut.

I’m sure you don’t have to have a chassis embedded in the stock instead of bottom metal, to have a usable grip while pulling the trigger without having gorilla hands, but I’ve only seen stocks-with-internal-chassis manage it.

I can’t speak for the folks doing intensive management of two-legged wildlife, but it seems to me like actually being able to grip the stock, instead of blading your main hand along the side of the grip and only really supporting the rifle with your support hand, would be beneficial to any sort of awkward shooting position activities, without preventing you from using very selective rifle contact during prone exercises.

I’m slow some times. I had this thought yesterday as I was thinking about how close I could make the grip and then I thought about replacing my Tikka bottom metal...and then “Ah ha! That rear action screw has to go somewhere...and through the grip is probably not an appealing option.“

I like the KRG Bravo simply because it’s comparatively light and the shooter interface is not made of metal...I swapped the back end of my W-3 to a Bravo for LOP/feel. It’s not as much of a stretch, but still a little stretch. I guess I need to look for a chassis with an external stock or a stock with an internal chassis that allows me to put the trigger guard flush (or nearly) with the pistol grip.

 

[Gil P.]

I’m slow some times. I had this thought yesterday as I was thinking about how close I could make the grip and then I thought about replacing my Tikka bottom metal...and then “Ah ha! That rear action screw has to go somewhere...and through the grip is probably not an appealing option.“

I like the KRG Bravo simply because it’s comparatively light and the shooter interface is not made of metal...I swapped the back end of my W-3 to a Bravo for LOP/feel. It’s not as much of a stretch, but still a little stretch. I guess I need to look for a chassis with an external stock or a stock with an external chassis that allows me to put the trigger guard flush (or nearly) with the pistol grip.

I don't get why it's so difficult to mold a relief for the rear action screw. The KMW Sentinel has a relief molded in, I doubt there's any additional work.

I havent handled an A10 or Z10, but it looks like all they did was make the grip vertical to try and get your hand a little closer. How hard would it be to make the front half of the grip removeable? You could replace it with a longer one to get your hand closer and simply remove it when you need access to the rear action screw.

 

[Stoweit]

I just got the Manners TCS, and have only dry fired it, but really like The grip with palm swell. Finger is not quite 90 but feels like I can pull the trigger so smoothly anyway. Really like it more than other chassis I’ve had. Can’t wait to shoot it, hopefully tomorrow. YMMV. Maybe I have long fingers.

 

[gnochi]

You pull the grip straight back using the middle two pads of the middle two fingers. This is classic, Sniper ARM(Advanced Rifle Marksmanship) 101. Taught the first day.

Hold your firing hand loosely in front of you and curve your middle two fingers as if you were going to pull straight back. Not your thumb, trigger finger or pinky. Look at what would naturally contact the front strap of the grip, what would be most conducive to pulling the rifle straight back into your shoulder. You wouldn't naturally pull straight back with the palm of your hand. That's why your hand is bladed.
View attachment 7511401

There are zero situations in which you would ever wrap your thumb around, given the ability to do that and pull the trigger at 90deg that I physically can’t do on half the stocks I’ve tried? I figured the pistol grips of the MRAD, AIAX, M2010, etc. were there to cover those cases, not because of economies of scale with AR grips (that the AIAX can’t use anyway).

Agreed that pulling backwards with your palm and thumb is pretty stupid, but it seems there are directions other than into your shoulder that might need some support from the right side at short notice, like shooting around the right side of a wall.

 

[DJL2]

You pull the grip straight back using the middle two pads of the middle two fingers. This is classic, Sniper ARM(Advanced Rifle Marksmanship) 101. Taught the first day.

Hold your firing hand loosely in front of you and curve your middle two fingers as if you were going to pull straight back. Not your thumb, trigger finger or pinky. Look at what would naturally contact the front strap of the grip, what would be most conducive to pulling the rifle straight back into your shoulder. You wouldn't naturally pull straight back with the palm of your hand. That's why your hand is bladed.

I read that, then I re-read it. If I position the second pad of the second and third finger on the front strap (as if shooting a pistol), do I have the gist of it? The grip on my Game Scout is so fat that I think/feel I might be achieving that functionally.

However, I’m not sure I really understand because that seems at odds with trigger finger placement. For me to get the front of the grip into the 2nd pad of the fingers and still reach the trigger optimally, I would need the trigger in line with the front the grip...and that’s just bonkers...right?

Maybe my hands are weird...with my trigger finger at 90 deg from the first knuckle I can line up the pad with either the outside/top tip of my middle finger’s first knuckle or the inside/bottom of the 2nd pad. I’m starting to feel kind of dumb...

 

[LV Precision]

However, I’m not sure I really understand because that seems at odds with trigger finger placement. For me to get the front of the grip into the 2nd pad of the fingers and still reach the trigger optimally, I would need the trigger in line with the front the grip...and that’s just bonkers...right?

The trigger is practically in line with the front of the grip on a chassis like the MDT ACC, MPA BA Comp, or XLR Envy Pro. For the description of your hand geometry (and mine as well), the MDT and MPA both work great for me.

Then compare that to how the Manners, Foundation, KRG, etc. line are set up, and it's a pretty big difference.

 

[Stoweit]

I think similarly to Reubenski, I keep the first joint 90 degrees of the trigger and it seems to work well for me.

 

[nksmfamjp]

I think there is a perfect grip and grip to trigger lop.

That said, any really gripping of the rifle tends to throw the shot, so I think that is how folks are working around that issue....basically not holding the grip exactly, but more with light touches or a cradle hold.

 

[Baron23]

I’m not an expert rifle shooters but I sure am working to improve.

I was a competitive skeet shooter for a number of decades and we are generally OCD about stock fit.

I have found (and of course may change my ind w more experience an expertise) that LOP, within reason, went to comfortable eye relief. That is, so far I have found LOP to be most critical to head/scope position.

I have a gun in a J Allen chassis and found it to be too long of an LOP (in addition to just not liking that miserable excuse for a recoil pad). So, I had a friend grind a kick-eez 3/4” pad to fit which took out a 1/2” of LOP and made getting good eye relief much easier and comfortable.

I do have small hands and am not a big guy. Grip angle and distance from trigger Shoe has presented some challenges. Right now I’m working w mole skin to try to build up the front of the grip, the grip strap, as well as swell the bottom of the on side of the grip so my hand more naturally falls into a good position/orientation of my trigger finger. Right now I have to can’t my hand just a bit to get my trigger finger movement more naturally straight back.

I have suggested to MDT that for thei JAE reissue that they look into using commercially available recoil pads with different thickness to allow more easy change in LOP. I also suggested that They consider offering different grip skins to change the angle and hence distance to trigger.

I don’t expect to see changes like this at first when they reissue, but do think both of these options would allow for a better fit for a larger population of shooter.

the pad change was easy, the grip I’m still struggling a bit with.

 

[ma smith]

[ ə-pō′zə-bəl ] A thumb that can be placed opposite the fingers of the same hand. Opposable thumbs allow the digits to grasp and handle objects and are characteristic of primates.

gripping of the rifle tends to throw the shot

If you're not gripping the rifle with your shooting hand, how are you managing recoil

IMHO "don't grip the grip" is a slang way of saying don't use thumb to squeeze grip. you can still "grip" like captain hook, and pull back into shoulder, that will help recoil managent, so you are using the grip, but not gripping it in the sense described...but some of this is reading between lines.

 

[Gil P.]

I'm not trying to ask a cocksucker question, but just to walk the dog on it. ..If you're not gripping the rifle with your shooting hand, how are you managing recoil in any position where you can't hard load your bipod?

I dont know, I still manage to grip an A6 stock even with my little bitch hands. I don't to hard load the bipod, but that might be because I'm a piece of shit.

We should just make a list of stocks and chassis with comfortable grips/ distance to trigger from grip and avoid the others.

 

[Stoweit]

Obviously!!

 

[littlepod]

I was so psyched when I got the Manners PRS-TCS then I couldn't get a good 90 degree trigger pull on it I ended up taping 1/4" of foam to the front of it to get a nice trigger pull. But $1450 and a piece of taped foam I decided to just sell it. I run my ACC with the grip adjusted pretty forward to get myself the trigger pull.

In the winters if I'm wearing thick padded gloves, which is basically like adding padding to the front of the grip I would slide my grip a little back.

The one non-chassis that would work for me would be the McMillan A-10 which was made for 'junior' shooters, but Frank talks about it in one of his podcasts. I was tempted to get one, but I also want to run weights to balance out my rifle and the A-10 won't accept the Area 419 weighted arca rail due to the non flat bottom the A-10 has.

I am hoping one day Manners engineers a way to move the grip 1/4" forward, or have a way to order it that way. I asked them if there was any way they could do it and they said no.

 

[King_beardsly]

I was so psyched when I got the Manners PRS-TCS then I couldn't get a good 90 degree trigger pull on it I ended up taping 1/4" of foam to the front of it to get a nice trigger pull. But $1450 and a piece of taped foam I decided to just sell it. I run my ACC with the grip adjusted pretty forward to get myself the trigger pull.

In the winters if I'm wearing thick padded gloves, which is basically like adding padding to the front of the grip I would slide my grip a little back.

The one non-chassis that would work for me would be the McMillan A-10 which was made for 'junior' shooters, but Frank talks about it in one of his podcasts. I was tempted to get one, but I also want to run weights to balance out my rifle and the A-10 won't accept the Area 419 weighted arca rail due to the non flat bottom the A-10 has.

I am hoping one day Manners engineers a way to move the grip 1/4" forward, or have a way to order it that way. I asked them if there was any way they could do it and they said no.

Look at the Z-10, it’s got the flat bottom and is pretty slick

U-10 ADJUSTABLE (UNIVERSAL)

mcmillanusa.com

 

[LV Precision]

I was so psyched when I got the Manners PRS-TCS then I couldn't get a good 90 degree trigger pull on it I ended up taping 1/4" of foam to the front of it to get a nice trigger pull. But $1450 and a piece of taped foam I decided to just sell it. I run my ACC with the grip adjusted pretty forward to get myself the trigger pull.

In the winters if I'm wearing thick padded gloves, which is basically like adding padding to the front of the grip I would slide my grip a little back.

The one non-chassis that would work for me would be the McMillan A-10 which was made for 'junior' shooters, but Frank talks about it in one of his podcasts. I was tempted to get one, but I also want to run weights to balance out my rifle and the A-10 won't accept the Area 419 weighted arca rail due to the non flat bottom the A-10 has.

I am hoping one day Manners engineers a way to move the grip 1/4" forward, or have a way to order it that way. I asked them if there was any way they could do it and they said no.

Had pretty much the exact same experience. I really wanted to like the TCS, but as soon as I felt the grip, it was an absolute no go for me. It’s really too bad because it’s such a great looking stock.

What’s also weird is that MPA’s matrix actually seems to go backwards in terms of hand fit vs their BA Comp.

Both are great looking stocks but dont fit all that great.

 

[littlepod]

Had pretty much the exact same experience. I really wanted to like the TCS, but as soon as I felt the grip, it was an absolute no go for me. It’s really too bad because it’s such a great looking stock.

What’s also weird is that MPA’s matrix actually seems to go backwards in terms of hand fit vs their BA Comp.

Both are great looking stocks but dont fit all that great.

The matrix has a lot of customizations but they don't just feel perfectly right. Also the chassis is so back heavy is nearly impossible to balance unless you put every single weight possible.

The ACC I've found is just perfect.

 

[b6graham]

Look at the Z-10, it’s got the flat bottom and is pretty slick

U-10 ADJUSTABLE (UNIVERSAL)

mcmillanusa.com

Z10 and A10 share the same foreend. can't use a straight A419. need to use the henderson one McMillan offers. or use a spacer at the rear screw

 

[b6graham]

Z1 top
Z10 bottom