Love/Hate relationship, My new GAP 10

[308sako]

100 yards to develop a Varget and 175 Sierra MK load, easy right? Start with 5 rounds of FGMM 168's just to season the otherwise clean bore. Then a bottom of the book 42.0 grains with SMK at 2.80" COL and Federal 210 standard primers in LC LR 11 cases that were once fired, Headspace had been setback .003" from this chamber.

Great morning, wonderful conditions. Focused scope a little better, looked at the reticle, I like it and find it useful and field effective. It grows on me. Not so sure about resolution however, but I'm cannot be the judge of such things as my eyes aren't good enough. All rounds fired sitting at bench from bi-pod with a rear bag semi supported.

Start with clean bore and FGMM 168's (my stash) all rounds sequenced POI on the target picture below. Apparently GAP's have a known issue with staying back on the last round. Maybe it's a slow magazine follower. I am going to try a different new magazine next outing. Velocity 2644 SD 13 .896 MOA

Load #1, 42.0 grs Varget SMK 175 F 210 std, LC LR 11 1 X cases; 2nd and 4th rounds failed to feed, no lock back. Velocity 2558 SB 12 best 3 .274 (3,4 & 5) bore changing conditions from FGMM, this load shot better than it's number.

Load #2 42.4 grs; Basically same POI as prior and tight shooter, but 1 fail to feed and didn't lock back. Vel = 2573 SD 16, .6 for 4, and .858 all 5.

Load #3 42.8 grs; 1 fail to eject, 3 fails to feed failed to lock back... .633 for 4, 1.4 for all 5 rounds. Vel = 2600 SD 24

Load #4 43.1 grs; 2 fail to feed both no round picked up but bolt closed, no lock back, Vel = 2615 SD 9
.590 for 4 all 5 going .825 MOA.

Load #5 43.4 grs; This is the only load that ran 100% in every way, accidental I'm sure! best 4 .644 and all 5 at .780. Vel = 2628 SD 4

Load #6 43.7 grs; Best shooter worst function... a dilemma for sure... .459 for 4, and .595 all 5, Vel = 2656 SD 10. 100% fail to feed, 1 fail to eject and of course no lock back.

Load #7 44.0 grs; First round blew or technically pierced the primer... I was done Vel = 2688, primer piece inside bolt, removed at cleaning upon arrival home.

 

[Weim79]

I'm having the same problems with mine failing to feed. I was using Black hills 175 and would only feed 1 out of 10 times. Sent gun back with 10 rds and of course no issues. Currently waiting to receive gun back and will try again.

 

[JasonS]

I've also been having FTF issues with mine running the Copper Creek 175gr thats recommended by GAP. I'm guessing I had around 10 in ~150 rounds. I was hoping to try some different ammo to see if it the ammo or the rifle but haven't had a chance yet.

 

[elfster1234]

that's too bad sako... I hope you get it all figured out. I don't think you could ask for a better company to work with than GAP and I'm sure they will make it work. I had this issue with one of my AR's, but it ended up just being a small nick / bad follower in my PMAG. I put in a new pmag = no issues.

100 yards to develop a Varget and 175 Sierra MK load, easy right? Start with 5 rounds of FGMM 168's just to season the otherwise clean bore. Then a bottom of the book 42.0 grains with SMK at 2.80" COL and Federal 210 standard primers in LC LR 11 cases that were once fired, Headspace had been setback .003" from this chamber.

Great morning, wonderful conditions. Focused scope a little better, looked at the reticle, I like it and find it useful and field effective. It grows on me. Not so sure about resolution however, but I'm cannot be the judge of such things as my eyes aren't good enough. All rounds fired sitting at bench from bi-pod with a rear bag semi supported.

Start with clean bore and FGMM 168's (my stash) all rounds sequenced POI on the target picture below. Apparently GAP's have a known issue with staying back on the last round. Maybe it's a slow magazine follower. I am going to try a different new magazine next outing. Velocity 2644 SD 13 .896 MOA

Load #1, 42.0 grs Varget SMK 175 F 210 std, LC LR 11 1 X cases; 2nd and 4th rounds failed to feed, no lock back. Velocity 2558 SB 12 best 3 .274 (3,4 & 5) bore changing conditions from FGMM, this load shot better than it's number.

Load #2 42.4 grs; Basically same POI as prior and tight shooter, but 1 fail to feed and didn't lock back. Vel = 2573 SD 16, .6 for 4, and .858 all 5.

Load #3 42.8 grs; 1 fail to eject, 3 fails to feed failed to lock back... .633 for 4, 1.4 for all 5 rounds. Vel = 2600 SD 24

Load #4 43.1 grs; 2 fail to feed both no round picked up but bolt closed, no lock back, Vel = 2615 SD 9
.590 for 4 all 5 going .825 MOA.

Load #5 43.4 grs; This is the only load that ran 100% in every way, accidental I'm sure! best 4 .644 and all 5 at .780. Vel = 2628 SD 4

Load #6 43.7 grs; Best shooter worst function... a dilemma for sure... .459 for 4, and .595 all 5, Vel = 2656 SD 10. 100% fail to feed, 1 fail to eject and of course no lock back.

Load #7 44.0 grs; First round blew primer... I was done Vel = 2688, primer piece inside bolt, removed at cleaning upon arrival home.

 

[lte82]

I have actually had an issue where the hammer would actually not have enough room to "lay down" to allow the bcg to smoothly cycle all the way back, and it would ftf / fail to lock back. I think it was an out of spec trigger hammer, as I took off a few thousands off of the back of the hammer and viola, perfectly functioning gun.

Does your bcg cycle perfectly smooth when you rack it back by hand? If it feels like it is hanging, then that could be your issue.

 

[Texar2]

Have you pmd George?

 

[308sako]

I have actually had an issue where the hammer would actually not have enough room to "lay down" to allow the bcg to smoothly cycle all the way back, and it would ftf / fail to lock back. I think it was an out of spec trigger hammer, as I took off a few thousands off of the back of the hammer and viola, perfectly functioning gun.

Does your bcg cycle perfectly smooth when you rack it back by hand? If it feels like it is hanging, then that could be your issue.

Yes it does cycle smoothly.

Elfster, new Pmag in the wrapper will be opened today.

 

[308sako]

Have you pmd George?

At this point I do not see a need to as there are more likely magazine issues afoot than rifle based ones. This rifle is well put together and an individual unto itself. It would not be fair to George to complain that my rifle didn't like my handloads.

Factory ammo and yet some additional handloads headed to the range again today. Different powder and a gentler approach; maximum charge will be 42.3 grains of IMR 4064 with the 175 SMK's.

 

[Texar2]

I understand not wanting to bother him. He may be able to list a few things to check for. I am sure he would be more than happy to help you out. He is just that kind of guy. When I built mine I had to keep it soaked with mobile one for it to function. After about 200 rounds it has smoothed up and runs like a dream. My favorite mag is the 10 rounder from fulton armory.

 

[jaycoux]

I presume you full length resized your brass and checked in a case gauge? Your comment about the setback .003 has me wondering. We had a similar problem with a GAP-10, the same kinds of failures you describe. It was due to a dillon fl die that did not resize enough. It would fit in a case gauge ok but the rifle would have none of it.

I know nothing of your experience with large frame AR's but they can be somewhat picky. I have a rifle that will not function for shit with a rifle length buffer and spring, but performs flawlessly with a carbine spring and buffer and a spacer.

All that said I would reach out to ga precision. Tbey are there to help. Whatever your issue is, they will know better than anyone else on this board I would bet.

 

[A10XRIFLE]

Love/Hate relationship, My new GAP 10

42.5 or very close to it is where the pressure is optimum. 43 to 43.5 on a 168.

When any gas gun is new they tend to have a " brake in period" for 50-100 rounds where the bolt, carrier, spring etc seat themselves. They are more finicky during initial trips to range. I'd like to put 100 rounds on every rifle before it leaves us but that's just not possible.

Make sure that you pull the rifle into your shoulder and that you don't relax your shoulder and shooting hand. Semi autos won't cycle properly when "free recoiled". Or when held loosely. That's why you hear the term "Drive" your gas gun.

Before every rifle leaves the shop several mags with 5 rounds are fired and the rifles have to function and lock back. Suppressed rifles get even more shooting as we test and tune the suppressed settings as well. We use Military M118, Navy 218, and Federal 168 match mainly as they are all 3 the most anemic 308 match we can get.

Tri-flo spray lubricant is the best we have found for lubricating the bolt carrier assembly. Most auto parts stores and bike shops sell it. Carrier should be wet with it.

Some of the problems I've seen lately are lubricants used that gum up in the cold. Go from slick to paste from your home to your range. Grease is especially bad for a gas gun. Don't use it!!

If anyone is having problems do a couple of things first. Clean the mag, clean the rifle bore and upper and bolt carrier and lube with Tri-Flow. Use 168-175 Match Amunition, Standing pull the rifle into your shoulder firmly and send a few down range. If your still having cycling issues then something else is going on and you need to call us and we will figure out what's going on.

George

 

[sfogold]

I had similar failure to feed/lock back issues with a JP chambered in 260. The solution in the end was nothing more than adjusting the gas block so that it cycled properly. After which, she ran like a champ.

 

[Mattrmvpd]

George is RIGHT ON.. (Course he KNOWS his stuff)... I did NOT have a GAP10 but had an AR10T and my powder for BOTH IMR4064 and RL15 was EXACTLY 43 grns.

I learned that keeping it loaded right to 2.8 was VERY dependable. I NEVER had any pressure signs or extaction issues. You may in the end... just have to bump the charge up a little.

Matt (LEO SOUTH GA.)

 

[Why1504]

George,
I find your comments about Tri Flow interesting. 5 years or so ago I was told Tri Flow was the bomb so I got a can. I found it to shellac up worse than WD-40. It was very difficult to get the stickiness off of the gun surfaces. I have a revolver that it was used on that I have yet been able to get to run right. As the revolver gets hot, the gun binds up. I have a GAP-10 on order with you now. It will be the nicest rifle i will own. Without strong reason, I would never use Tri Flow on my GAP-10. Honestly, aside from WD-40 this is the only lubricant that has caused me big problems. Rem Oil doesn't hold up well but it is just too light but it didn't cause any lingering problems like the Tri Flow. I find it amazing it is your preferred lube.

 

[redirt78]

I had a mix of two lubricants that gummed up. Sometimes it happens if you don't thoroughly clean one off before using another. Not saying that's what happened but could be. Look forward to hearing more and good luck Op

 

[308sako]

Thank you George

Greatly appreciate the comments and direction.

Feb 14th, IMR 4064 trial, and a 42.2 grain attempt with Varget because that seemed to want to shoot first try.

First five rounds were Factory Federal 150 grain softpoints. All rounds cycled.

Next IMR 4064 with 175 SMK LC LR 118 - 11 brass again, Fed 210 std primers 41.3 grains, first round failed to feed, next four did fine, bolt did not lock back on empty. V = 2547 ft/secs, SD 17

Then 41.5 grains and same as above, all were 2.80" COL. First 2 rounds failed to feed, but the last three were fine, bolt did not lock back. V = 2568, SD 15

Now for Mr Newberry's clone" of 41.7 grains and first 2 rounds failed to feed, there was no lock back on empty. V = 2580 ft/secs, SD 16.

One round of 42.1. blew/pierced the primer so I stopped cleaned the action and disassembled the bolt, cleaned again with CLP, re assembled and put 9 rounds of a Varget load that showed promise in initial reload trial. All 9 cycled and ready; the bolt stayed back on empty! Happy day.

So that's the blow by blow for this attempt.

For the record I have zero experience with large pattern AR's prior to this rifle. I do however have probably 25K rounds with AR15 rifles, both long and short, factory and custom, suppressed and non.

As to the question regarding a headspace setback of .003" that is what I am measuring from fired cases to sized cases, not dropping them into a gauge that has nothing to do with the rifles actual chamber. The redding sizing FL bushing die I am using sets the body at the shouldler .004" smaller, the mid-body .0025" smaller and the solid portion of the case head .001" smaller than fired, the shoulder itself is being bumped .003".

 

[longrangefool]

Tag for later

 

[lte82]

I would pull the gas block and check to see if its lined up perfectly with the gas port. Ive seen barrels where the gas port is not perfectly vertical, so a perfectly vertical gas block is going to actually be off center of the gas port. My latest ar15 barrel is that way, so I have to rotate my gas block about 2-3 degrees to center it up.

What leads me to believe this is that you are getting varget to cycle the action but not 4064. Varget has a slightly different pressure curve and may result in more gas being able to get in through a partially choked off gas port. If it *is* lined up, then you may need the gas port opened up a bit.

Just fyi, when you pull the gas block you should see a carbon ring around the gas port that will let know you if its aligned properly. If its off center you will know right away.

 

[Notso]

Hey Sako308, I hear you shot some factory M118LR through the gun initially and had some serious issues with blown primers. Can you explain to the group here what you were seeing? I would be very interested in George's/GAPs take on that. I would have expected M118LR to shoot well through that particular gun.

 

[jaycoux]

From my experience with the GAP10 and OBR/PredatOBR platforms the fancy reloading tricks that one would normally employ on a bolt gun dont work well on a precision auto-loader with a tight chamber. Resize the brass back to standard dimensions, check it with a case gauge and try again. If I read correctly, all your factory loads have functioned except one. The Rifle passed tbe GAP function test with factory loads as well. Unless something came loose the most obvious difference is your reloading. I would focus my attention at the brass.

Greatly appreciate the comments and direction.

Feb 14th, IMR 4064 trial, and a 42.2 grain attempt with Varget because that seemed to want to shoot first try.

First five rounds were Factory Federal 150 grain softpoints. All rounds cycled.

Next IMR 4064 with 175 SMK LC LR 118 - 11 brass again, Fed 210 std primers 41.3 grains, first round failed to feed, next four did fine, bolt did not lock back on empty. V = 2547 ft/secs, SD 17

Then 41.5 grains and same as above, all were 2.80" COL. First 2 rounds failed to feed, but the last three were fine, bolt did not lock back. V = 2568, SD 15

Now for Mr Newberry's clone" of 41.7 grains and first 2 rounds failed to feed, there was no lock back on empty. V = 2580 ft/secs, SD 16.

One round of 42.1. blew the primer so I stopped cleaned the action and disassembled the bolt, cleaned again with CLP, re assembled and put 9 rounds of a Varget load that showed promise in initial reload trial. All 9 cycled and ready; the bolt stayed back on empty! Happy day.

So that's the blow by blow for this attempt.

For the record I have zero experience with large pattern AR's prior to this rifle. I do however have probably 25K rounds with AR15 rifles, both long and short, factory and custom, suppressed and non.

As to the question regarding a headspace setback of .003" that is what I am measuring from fired cases to sized cases, not dropping them into a gauge that has nothing to do with the rifles actual chamber. The redding sizing FL bushing die I am using sets the body at the shouldler .004" smaller, the mid-body .0025" smaller and the solid portion of the case head .001" smaller than fired, the shoulder itself is being bumped .003".

 

[A10XRIFLE]

Hey Sako308, I hear you shot some factory M118LR through the gun initially and had some serious issues with blown primers. Can you explain to the group here what you were seeing? I would be very interested in George's/GAPs take on that. I would have expected M118LR to shoot well through that particular gun.

That's actually not always the case , M118LR was originally made and speced for bolt rifles. The USMC and then the Army made a ton of changes over a long period of time to get it to work well in the Mk11 and M110. I know this as when the guys were in town working with Lake City. They stopped by the shop a lot. The Navy also has special lots and designations for Gas gun ammo. IE Mk 216. At any rate if someone has problems with M118LR in a gas rifle it's a well documented issue. With a gas rifle you have to find ammo that will run in the rifle or load to the rifle like the OP is doing and sharing with you all. Equate it to the need for Premium pump gas in a Vette, 87 won't Run it. ?


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[steppenwolf]

I have a GAP-10 on order with you now. It will be the nicest rifle i will own.

Same here ...
Like Why1504, I also have a GAP-10 on order and was concerned with the reliability/cycling issue after reading some of the earlier comments on this thread. Appreciate George's responsive comments.
I intend to shoot either factory 168gn-178 gn match ammo (Federal, Hornady) or my own same-weight handloads using Varget & match brass, both using the latest Gen P-Mags.
For the money one invests in a GAP-10, I'd expect it to run hitch-free once the break-in period that George described is completed. FWIW, I have a 7.62 LMT MRP slick-side that's shot thru 150-rds of factory .308 ammo with no issues at all from the git-go.

 

[A10XRIFLE]

Same here ...
Like Why1504, I also have a GAP-10 on order and was concerned with the reliability/cycling issue after reading some of the earlier comments on this thread. Appreciate George's responsive comments.
I intend to shoot either factory 168gn-178 gn match ammo (Federal, Hornady) or my own same-weight handloads using Varget & match brass, both using the latest Gen P-Mags.
For the money one invests in a GAP-10, I'd expect it to run hitch-free once the break-in period that George described is completed. FWIW, I have a 7.62 LMT MRP slick-side that's shot thru 150-rds of factory .308 ammo with no issues at all from the git-go.

You will be fine, start with new brass if reloading or invest in Small base dies which will return fired brass to new size. There are about 700 GAP-10's out there lots of PD's have them. They run just fine when fed the right diet!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[elfster1234]

Its guys like george that makes me want to purchase a gap in a 6creed. That would be my dream AR if i had the money. Maybe one of these days. What is cool about george is not only does he know his stuff obviously but he particpates in threads like this and backs up his product in a nice, cool, and calm manner. What an awesome company.

Same here ...
Like Why1504, I also have a GAP-10 on order and was concerned with the reliability/cycling issue after reading some of the earlier comments on this thread. Appreciate George's responsive comments.
I intend to shoot either factory 168gn-178 gn match ammo (Federal, Hornady) or my own same-weight handloads using Varget & match brass, both using the latest Gen P-Mags.
For the money one invests in a GAP-10, I'd expect it to run hitch-free once the break-in period that George described is completed. FWIW, I have a 7.62 LMT MRP slick-side that's shot thru 150-rds of factory .308 ammo with no issues at all from the git-go.

 

[steppenwolf]

You will be fine, start with new brass if reloading or invest in Small base dies which will return fired brass to new size. There are about 700 GAP-10's out there lots of PD's have them. They run just fine when fed the right diet!

Thank you, George. Looking forward to the rifle.
Want to mention also that Dustin L. was very helpful with advising on the specs that I had questions about when I placed my order.

 

[308sako]

Next phase will be new brass

You will be fine, start with new brass if reloading or invest in Small base dies which will return fired brass to new size. There are about 700 GAP-10's out there lots of PD's have them. They run just fine when fed the right diet!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

George, thank you once again for your comments. The more one shoots a GAP 10 the more one appreciates it!

In total 91 rounds have been fired so far, the last 9 running flawlessly, including the magazine locking the bolt carrier back when empty.

I will clean the action once again and use only oil type lube not any grease.

New factory brass will be employed for the next phase of testing as will IMR 4895, and some of the 42+ Varget load, and the 41.3 4064 Load which shot well.

 

[JasonS]

When any gas gun is new they tend to have a " brake in period" for 50-100 rounds where the bolt, carrier, spring etc seat themselves. They are more finicky during initial trips to range. I'd like to put 100 rounds on every rifle before it leaves us but that's just not possible.

Make sure that you pull the rifle into your shoulder and that you don't relax your shoulder and shooting hand. Semi autos won't cycle properly when "free recoiled". Or when held loosely. That's why you hear the term "Drive" your gas gun.

Some of the problems I've seen lately are lubricants used that gum up in the cold. Go from slick to paste from your home to your range. Grease is especially bad for a gas gun. Don't use it!!

All three of these are likely related to the issues I posted above. I definitely had some lube related issues the first time I took my GAP-10 out. I solved most of them by the second time I took it out but I was still having some FTF and occasional jam. I'll give it a little more time to break in and also drive the gun a bit more. Thanks for the info!

 

[Notso]

That's actually not always the case , M118LR was originally made and speced for bolt rifles. The USMC and then the Army made a ton of changes over a long period of time to get it to work well in the Mk11 and M110. I know this as when the guys were in town working with Lake City. They stopped by the shop a lot. The Navy also has special lots and designations for Gas gun ammo. IE Mk 216. At any rate if someone has problems with M118LR in a gas rifle it's a well documented issue. With a gas rifle you have to find ammo that will run in the rifle or load to the rifle like the OP is doing and sharing with you all. Equate it to the need for Premium pump gas in a Vette, 87 won't Run it.


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Ah, that makes sense. I would have expected 118LR to work well in the GAP. But if its a known issue, no worries. From what 308Sako was telling me in emails.... he was getting some serious pressure signs and blown primers with factory 118LR rounds. And then later with the reloaded LC brass from those 118LR firings.

At first glance, the overpressure signs and blown primers on the reloads point to TOO MUCH headspace, i.e. bumping the shoulder too much. Does this sound right? Am I mixing my definitions up?

 

[sib1948]

I've known several other people who have had similar issues with this platform using factory ammo!

 

[KillShot]

What doesn't make a lick of sense to me is why these high dollar rifles, POF included, have been known to have FTF or accuracy issues if you don't feed it the right "diet" aka use the right ammo, etc.

In my opinion, a $2000+ rifle should run any kind of fuckin ammo from Tula to Black Hills, with no excuses. I mean, shit, if it's supposed to be so much better than a run-of-the-mill Bushmaster, DPMS Sportical, or Del-Ton...then what's the problem that it won't eat the dirtiest shit available just the same as the priciest?

When a rifle that's 1/3rd the price of a POF or GAP-10 will run anything you feed it but the aforementioned won't, there's a serious problem.

When was the last time or how often do you hear of a KAC, Larue, JP, Noveske, or some of the others having these kinds of issues? When you pay $2000+ for a rifle it should run like a fuckin sewing machine, no matter what you feed it — NO EXCUSES.

I'm not baggin' on GAP or any particular manufacturer here but I'm simply saying that if a $1000 entry level AR can do it then there's no reason why a top tier shouldn't be able to do the same thing.

If tolerances are so tight that some of the aforementioned issues are the result, and it doesn't go 'bang' each and every time, then perhaps the tolerances are too damn tight.

 

[lte82]

The M118LR load is:

175 SMK
LC Brass
42.9gr IMR 4064

Hardly a barn burner, but MORE than enough to make the bolt cycle.

I make an nearly identical load, but with 43gr of IMR 4064, and it runs perfect in everything I throw it in. 26" Rem 700, 20" Armalite AR-10, and a 24" DPMS LR-308.

With that said, if your gun doesn't eat that something is wrong. Lack of gas, or something is mechanically clashing or rubbing not allowing the bolt to cycle. I can run my armalite and dpms BONE DRY, and it will cycle on this load.

 

[thmpr]

Intresting... My accurate load is using 44 grains Varget, 175 grains SMK, #34 CCI primer, and OAL at 2.800". Rifles used: KAC, JP, RRA, and SCAR 17S. No issues what so ever. I have a GAP10 on order and should be here around June/July timeframe. I will start at min. charge listed as 39.9 grains and work my way up. Thank you for this!!!!

 

[jaycoux]

If you read all of george's comments he pretty much tells you EXACTLY what charge to use.

Intresting... My accurate load is using 44 grains Varget, 175 grains SMK, #34 CCI primer, and OAL at 2.800". Rifles used: KAC, JP, RRA, and SCAR 17S. No issues what so ever. I have a GAP10 on order and should be here around June/July timeframe. I will start at min. charge listed as 39.9 grains and work my way up. Thank you for this!!!!

 

[308sako]

It's Love / LOVE now

Using the original "suspect magazine" and some rounds that were left over from the previous test, as well as a hopeful fine tuning I fired the 3 groups on the upper right target with 100% function including lock back after the mag was empty. These were with the LC LR 11 cases. The upper left 4 targets were fired with Winchester commercial cases and 41.3, 41.5, 41.7 & 41.9 grains with Fed 210 primers and 175 SMK's. ALL of these cycled and locked back 100%. So rounds 83 through 116 have been totally flawless in function. Some of the vertical shown was me fiddling with the MagPul PRS's length of pull and support for the rifle.

The 2 lower right groups were with a friends reloads with XBR and Nosler 175 CC bullets, while they didn't function 100% I strongly suspect it was the brass not the load causing this.

Prior to this firing the action was cleaned and lubed with only Slip 2000 EWL.

Only thing left to do is more commercial brass and continue to refine known loads.

I appreciate George's patience and product

 

[Sean the Nailer]

What doesn't make a lick of sense to me is why these high dollar rifles, POF included, have been known to have FTF or accuracy issues if you don't feed it the right "diet" aka use the right ammo, etc.

In my opinion, a $2000+ rifle should run any kind of fuckin ammo from Tula to Black Hills, with no excuses. I mean, shit, if it's supposed to be so much better than a run-of-the-mill Bushmaster, DPMS Sportical, or Del-Ton...then what's the problem that it won't eat the dirtiest shit available just the same as the priciest?

When a rifle that's 1/3rd the price of a POF or GAP-10 will run anything you feed it but the aforementioned won't, there's a serious problem.

When was the last time or how often do you hear of a KAC, Larue, JP, Noveske, or some of the others having these kinds of issues? When you pay $2000+ for a rifle it should run like a fuckin sewing machine, no matter what you feed it — NO EXCUSES.

I'm not baggin' on GAP or any particular manufacturer here but I'm simply saying that if a $1000 entry level AR can do it then there's no reason why a top tier shouldn't be able to do the same thing.

If tolerances are so tight that some of the aforementioned issues are the result, and it doesn't go 'bang' each and every time, then perhaps the tolerances are too damn tight.

Since you stated the above, I have to ask these things:

What is your definition of "run"?

Are you inferring to "simply cycle and/or function"?
Are you inferring to "perform to the accuracy level of the average recruit's service rifle"?
Are you inferring to "maintain utmost 'laser-like precision' with below-average spray-'n-pray Tula ammo?"

I ask this, because I'm not understanding what exactly is being said here, and/or not understanding what the comment/complaint is? And for the record, no I don't have either a GAP-10 or a POF or a Larue or whatever else. As a matter of fact, I'm trying to put together my first AR-10, and I'd like to make as many mistakes as possible on paper, before actually applying the problems to parts and/or components.

So by all means, add some clarity please. I'm interested. Thanks.

 

[KillShot]

Since you stated the above, I have to ask these things:

What is your definition of "run"?

Are you inferring to "simply cycle and/or function"?

Are you inferring to "perform to the accuracy level of the average recruit's service rifle"?

Are you inferring to "maintain utmost 'laser-like precision' with below-average spray-'n-pray Tula ammo?"

I ask this, because I'm not understanding what exactly is being said here, and/or not understanding what the comment/complaint is? And for the record, no I don't have either a GAP-10 or a POF or a Larue or whatever else.

As a matter of fact, I'm trying to put together my first AR-10, and I'd like to make as many mistakes as possible on paper, before actually applying the problems to parts and/or components.

So by all means, add some clarity please. I'm interested. Thanks.

I mean...it will fire each time you pull the trigger and it will "run" with any kind of ammo you feed it. I don't mean...moa or better with trash ammo.

 

[Notso]

I mean...it will fire each time you pull the trigger and it will "run" with any kind of ammo you feed it. I don't mean...moa or better with trash ammo.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you can have both. You can either have a rifle that will 100% function with almost all types of ammo, including the dirtiest of dirt tula crap OR you can have a precision rifle capable of 1/2 MOA with the right load.

In the 1st instance, to get that 100% function - you're going to most likely have to have a chrome lined barrel with a loose SAAMI chamber and a bolt that will accomodate pretty much everything. They have a name for this kind of rifle - its called a "service rifle". On a good day, these rifles will be happy to get 1.25-2.5 MOA accuracy even with match ammo. But they will function after being thrown in a muddy pothole.

The other kind of rifle is a "precision rifle" where the tolerances are by design tight to achieve that level of desired accuracy. To get that accuracy, you will need tight chambers and match grade barrels and bolts and BCGs that are not rattling around in the receiver.

Its "horses for courses". Pick one or the other, but I am not aware of any gas guns that can do both well. The SCAR17 can probably eat everything fed it, but its not a "precision" rifle by any stretch of the imagination. OTOH, I don't think the GAP-10 was spec'd to take into combat by SEAL Team 6 or a Ranger Btn. I suspect people who ordered a GAP-10 did so for the accuracy potential to use as a TAC match gun and not as a "battle rifle", and therefore are willing to accept some of the limitations that come with that precision.

Just my $.02.

Edit to add..... having said all that - once the "right" load is found, it'd better damn well function 100% of the time for a $3500 rifle. I would hate to blow a tac match because I was getting FTF, FTEs or no lock backs during a timed stage. That would suck balls!

 

[Jcgodfrey]

I would tend to agree if it weren't for the fact that MANY of these 'precision rifle' manufacturers tend to 'torture test' their rifles; thousands of rounds without cleaning, thousands of rounds of ALL kinds of ammo, including steel case. In that case, to me they are saying "Yes this is a sub MOA rifle AND it will shoot anything you can put into it". I am not saying GAP states this about their rifle in particular, but many manufacturers that people are having feeding issues with DO advertise in this manner. Again, GAP has never claimed this to my knowledge, but several precision rifle manufacturers have. And if I drop big coin on that rifle that they claim can do this or that with anything you fire through it, then it had better do exactly that, every time, without fail. Just my observations. Hopefully the OP can get his rifle running perfectly.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you can have both. You can either have a rifle that will 100% function with almost all types of ammo, including the dirtiest of dirt tula crap OR you can have a precision rifle capable of 1/2 MOA with the right load.

In the 1st instance, to get that 100% function - you're going to most likely have to have a chrome lined barrel with a loose SAAMI chamber and a bolt that will accomodate pretty much everything. They have a name for this kind of rifle - its called a "service rifle". On a good day, these rifles will be happy to get 1.25-2.5 MOA accuracy even with match ammo. But they will function after being thrown in a muddy pothole.

The other kind of rifle is a "precision rifle" where the tolerances are by design tight to achieve that level of desired accuracy. To get that accuracy, you will need tight chambers and match grade barrels and bolts and BCGs that are not rattling around in the receiver.

Its "horses for courses". Pick one or the other, but I am not aware of any gas guns that can do both well. The SCAR17 can probably eat everything fed it, but its not a "precision" rifle by any stretch of the imagination. OTOH, I don't think the GAP-10 was spec'd to take into combat by SEAL Team 6 or a Ranger Btn. I suspect people who ordered a GAP-10 did so for the accuracy potential to use as a TAC match gun and not as a "battle rifle", and therefore are willing to accept some of the limitations that come with that precision.

Just my $.02.

Edit to add..... having said all that - once the "right" load is found, it'd better damn well function 100% of the time for a $3500 rifle. I would hate to blow a tac match because I was getting FTF, FTEs or no lock backs during a timed stage. That would suck balls!

 

[alpha6164]

For my 308 POF i have to use small base die from Forster. When i use a standard 308 full length die some of the rounds just are not sized enough for a tight match chamber such as what POF/GAP uses. When i switched to SB die all my feeding problems went away. Trust me on this.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you can have both. You can either have a rifle that will 100% function with almost all types of ammo, including the dirtiest of dirt tula crap OR you can have a precision rifle capable of 1/2 MOA with the right load.

This isn't true at all. I had two MWS's that shot 1/2moa with the factory chrome lined barrel with FGMM and my loads. Load development was very easy as well. They both ran flawlessly from round one and saw plenty of crap ammo run through them. Never a single hiccup with any ammo or any mag (KAC mags and Pmags). My KAC rifles are the same way. I also had two RRA varmint models that ran right and shot great.

Good AR's are out there...

 

[Capt Academy]

Tag for later

 

[GhostFace]

This isn't true at all. I had two MWS's that shot 1/2moa with the factory chrome lined barrel with FGMM and my loads. Load development was very easy as well. They both ran flawlessly from round one and saw plenty of crap ammo run through them. Never a single hiccup with any ammo or any mag (KAC mags and Pmags). My KAC rifles are the same way. I also had two RRA varmint models that ran right and shot great.

Good AR's are out there...

I agree my Armalites have fed everything I have thrown at her, alot of milsurp ball to break them in. Load development was a joke, just load em up and shoot em. My RRA in 5.56 (SS 1/8) is just as good.

 

[dang472]

The irony of this thread is how we were just told in 2 separate threads how lesser, mass produced ARs aren't as reliable/accurate as a GAP or JP. I think the quote was "you get what you pay for". Indeed.

 

[Shoottothrill]

My Gap-10 has ran perfectly with the following ammo. FGMM 175, and Copper Creeks Gas Gun Load 175's. I have not run any other ammo in it yet. I lube with Frog Lube and it has functioned 100% perfect and shoots better than I do. I have roughly 500 rounds down range thus far. For me this is a match rifle and I shoot match ammo in it. I have cleaned it twice i think. So far perfection and the most accurate AR10 I have ever shot.

 

[308sako]

At the request of an experience team member it was suggested I find out where the lands begin in this chamber. I had not bothered to as loading for the magazine length and function was my prior only concerns.

Suffice it to say you learn something new everyday. A SMK 175 grain shows rifling on the seated bullet when the cartridge is 2.810" overall length... Dang that's tight

 

[ultrarunner7]

Hey bud. So, what's your COL? I'm pushing mine right at 2.81 and it's OK... Not great. I may take mine back a hair or two. I'm finding mine likes 178 AMAX with 43.8 of Varget.(. 10 to. 30 moa) I'm working some 168s and 175s now. Also loaded up some Berger 185s and that didn't go so well. More to come.

 

[the once-ler]

That bolt looks rough. What is that on it? carbon or is it the metal that looks like that??

 

[SWThomas]

I had a similar experience with mine when I first got it. But it woke up around the same round count. I had the opposite experience with ammo though. Mine didn't like factory ammo but loved my handloads. Now it functions flawlessly and is stupid accurate with anything I feed it.

 

[RTH1800]

Makes me glad I stick with bolt guns, AR 15's and M1a's. All work from rd 1.

 

[SWThomas]

Makes me glad I stick with bolt guns, AR 15's and M1a's. All work from rd 1.

I would agree but I like accuracy.