LPVO opinions

[Jigstick]

I have a new build finishing up. A 14.5 midlength built on a Radian ADAC lower, San Tan upper, Lancer carbon fiber handguard, and Vltor A5 system. Pic for attention:

I’m wanting to run a LPVO and 45* offset RMR on this setup. So far the rifle is pretty dam light weight.

my buddy has a Khales LPVO on his rig and while very nice it’s out of my price range. So I’m looking at the following:

NF NX8 with the tight eyebox issue

Vortex Razor 1-10

and Primary Arms Platinum 1-8 ACSS Raptor

I’m really digging everything about this Primary Arms optic except it’s heavy as fuck. Does anyone have hands on experience with this optics I’m looking at?

 

[Dvlray6]

Love my Razor. Sharp images and a lot of function for the price. Running with a Spuhr mount with offset T1 dot.

 

[Evintos]

The eye boxes will get tight on all of them once they get past the 6x on the upper end magnification range. It all depends on how tight is acceptable to you though.

 

[Glassaholic]

Out of curiosity, why would you run an offset RDS with an LPVO capable of 1x? I've seen this on multiple setups lately but don't fully understand the benefit.

 

[Jigstick]

Speed. Engaging targets at 6-8x at 2-300meters when confronted suddenly with a target inside 50

 

[Glassaholic]

Speed. Engaging targets at 6-8x at 2-300meters when confronted suddenly with a target inside 50

I hear you, but wouldn't a good 2-10/3-15 scope with an offset RDS be able to do the same?

 

[Glassaholic]

Nice build by the way, I like your choices!

 

[Choid]

I slightly prefer the Atacr to the Razor, but both are very good.

 

[sam4886]

Athlon is coming out a new lpvo too. Cronus or Ares, I don't remember, if you want to check that out.

 

[gnochi]

Athlon is coming out a new lpvo too. Cronus or Ares, I don't remember, if you want to check that out.

Ares ETR and Helos BTR are getting 1-10s.

 

[W54/XM-388]

The Primary arms Platinum one you are looking at is a solid choice for the budget range.
It has good glass and the controls work well.
It is heavy but it's solid.
The off setting between each illumination setting is a nice touch.

The Biggest thing to recommend it is that it's one of the few LPVO options that has a reticle which is actually usable at 1x without illumination for quick shots.

The Razor Gen III 1-10 has better glass and would be a better choice if you were trying to do precision range work.

However, the Razor would be a fair bit slower to get on target at 1x without illumination, especially if it was not super bright outside or the target area was shaded.

Basically if you want something that you can actually walk around with and be able to pull up and take snap shots with and not have to worry about illumination being on or off, the Primary Arms Platinum is a good match.

The Illumination ranges from 2 Night Vision settings to Noon Day stand out bright.
Yet you can still use it without illumination very easily all the way from 1x to 8x

One of the guys from Primary Arms is on the forum here.

 

[Jigstick]

I have “Precision” built ARs. ARs more designed for DMR style engagements. I also have a hard use SBR 10.5. What I’ve been lacking is a carbine purpose built for “fighting”...if you want to call it that. Something to run hard in carbine courses. Something to defend the ranch with. That’s the purpose of this gun. Something I can grab at a moments notice and be equipped to handle close in to medium range targets quickly. Both during daylight and under Nods/thermal with a Dbal or Peq

 

[Choid]

I don't think the tight eyebox on the NX8 is really a thing if you mount the gun the same way each time. Sure, if you are shooting lying down under a car the eyebox will be brutal, but it will be on other LPVOs too. I do think it has too much x at 1x, but for what it is, as super light LPVO, it is tits.

 

[Jigstick]

choid

for that exact scenario is why I plan on putting the RMR on a 45* offset. I really really dig the reticle in the Primary Arms Raptor. But dam is that NF lite

 

[Glassaholic]

This is even lighter, ILya seems to like it for what it is, and if you're doing the offset RMR anyway...

SWFA 2.5-10x32 SS Ultralight Riflescope

SWFA 2.5-10x32 SS Ultralight Riflescope Details SKU: SSUL2510X32BDC Finish: Matte Reticle: MSR 556 BDC Tube Diameter (in): 1 Elevation Knob: Low Profile Capped (1/4 MOA) Windage Knob: Low Profile Capped (1/4 MOA) Parallax Setting: Fixed Focal Plane: Second

www.swfa.com

 

[Slevin182]

I've only had an ATACR 1-8 and now my Razor Gen 2(E) 1-6. I really tried to like the ATACR, ran it a few times at the local range and at a 2-day course. Just wasn't for me. Going to the SFP Razor, I'm much happier. More eye relief and a better eyebox. At 1x it's almost as good as just a red dot. I run that in a scalarworks mount, and have an offset DPP in an Arisaka offset mount. Arisaka also makes the interface plate for a bunch of other RDSs, including the RMR. They also have a feature unique to them(I believe) Where the base under the interface plate can be swapped around, so the RDS can be mounted either 45 or 35 degrees away from the picatinny rail. Best offset RDS offset mount I've found to date. Your preferences may prove this inaccurate. SICK handguard, BTW.

 

[Glassaholic]

I've only had an ATACR 1-8 and now my Razor Gen 2(E) 1-6. I really tried to like the ATACR, ran it a few times at the local range and at a 2-day course. Just wasn't for me. Going to the SFP Razor, I'm much happier. More eye relief and a better eyebox. At 1x it's almost as good as just a red dot. I run that in a scalarworks mount, and have an offset DPP in an Arisaka offset mount. Arisaka also makes the interface plate for a bunch of other RDSs, including the RMR. They also have a feature unique to them(I believe) Where the base under the interface plate can be swapped around, so the RDS can be mounted either 45 or 35 degrees away from the picatinny rail. Best offset RDS offset mount I've found to date. Your preferences may prove this inaccurate. SICK handguard, BTW.

Just want to clarify you had the "ATACR" 1-8 and not the "NX8" 1-8? Reason I ask is most feedback on ATACR 1-8 is that it has a very good eyebox whereas the NX8 is the one more finicky.

 

[westsidecamper]

Anyone have feedback on the Athlon Cronus 1-6? Seems like it stacks up well in terms of weight against the Razor gen II-E 1-6, so I'm wondering how it is on glass quality. Whenever people post pics of the Razor I'm impressed by the clarity.

 

[db2000]

I hear you, but wouldn't a good 2-10/3-15 scope with an offset RDS be able to do the same?

This is what I’ve always wondered. I just use 45 offset BUIS

 

[db2000]

FWIW, I have PA platinum Griffin and it’s badass. Glass seems as good as NF to me. I haven’t spent a lot of time comparing both side by side but have used both. I prefer the Griffin ACSS reticle though.

 

[erwos]

Razor 1-10x, hands-down. Only time I'd choose an NX8 over it would be a very substantial price difference (like $400-$500). Vortex really knocked it out of the park with the Gen3.

 

[Glassaholic]

This is what I’ve always wondered. I just use 45 offset BUIS

I don't want to discount from this thread so will start a new one on this subject.

 

[WillHugh]

I'm running an NX8 on a 14.5 and love it. There's no LPVO that's perfect at everything due to constraints of the mag range, so decide what's most important to you (weight, footprint, reticle, edge to edge clarity, eyebox, etc.).

The NX8 is light and compact, so handling wise it feels close to a red dot to me, whereas with other optics it's obvious I'm swinging a big scope around. Eye box is a little tight, but if you set it up with proper eye relief shouldn't be a problem at all, especially if you're planning to run an offset dot for close up. Reticle is nice as well - fat center dot and super bright so works well at 1X, cross hairs below are thin enough for shooting at distance.

 

[Burdy]

This is even lighter, ILya seems to like it for what it is, and if you're doing the offset RMR anyway...

SWFA 2.5-10x32 SS Ultralight Riflescope

SWFA 2.5-10x32 SS Ultralight Riflescope Details SKU: SSUL2510X32BDC Finish: Matte Reticle: MSR 556 BDC Tube Diameter (in): 1 Elevation Knob: Low Profile Capped (1/4 MOA) Windage Knob: Low Profile Capped (1/4 MOA) Parallax Setting: Fixed Focal Plane: Second

www.swfa.com

Hmm. I wonder how the glass compares to the Razor LH 1.5-8x32? It would save me 4 more ounces on my .300 blk hunting build.

To answer your question on the red dot/LPVO, I run a Delta Point Pro piggy backed on top of my LPVO (not at 45) and I have been ecstatic with the setup for about a year now. I thought when I put it up top, it would be used sparingly in use/competitions and that the LPVO would still see the bulk of the work. Bottom line, red dots are still faster and easier, especially at extreme angles and offsets. When transitioning with a LPVO from target to target you can still easily get shadowing at the edges of your scope, something you won't see on your red dot. Turns out, my LPVO stays on about 3x+ and my DPP gets pretty much all the work inside 50y and still the majority of the work all the way out to 100.

Yes, if someone made a 30mm lightweight FFP 2.5-10 to run with my DPP, I would not need an LPVO. But it doesn't exist.

 

[Choid]

I think a few things are true -- the eyebox on the NX8 isn't that hard to deal with, and if the Razor or Atacr is too heavy, you need to start hitting the gym.

 

[Glassaholic]

Hmm. I wonder how the glass compares to the Razor LH 1.5-8x32? It would save me 4 more ounces on my .300 blk hunting build.

To answer your question on the red dot/LPVO, I run a Delta Point Pro piggy backed on top of my LPVO (not at 45) and I have been ecstatic with the setup for about a year now. I thought when I put it up top, it would be used sparingly in use/competitions and that the LPVO would still see the bulk of the work. Bottom line, red dots are still faster and easier, especially at extreme angles and offsets. When transitioning with a LPVO from target to target you can still easily get shadowing at the edges of your scope, something you won't see on your red dot. Turns out, my LPVO stays on about 3x+ and my DPP gets pretty much all the work inside 50y and still the majority of the work all the way out to 100.

Yes, if someone made a 30mm lightweight FFP 2.5-10 to run with my DPP, I would not need an LPVO. But it doesn't exist.

Thank you Burdy. I've been seriously considering the DPP piggy backed similar to your setup with my Bushnell LRHSi on my SPR rig. You're right, they just don't make a "lightweight" FFP low magnification optic, in fact, I can't find any that crack the 20oz barrier. Not sure what it is about FFP designs that create such a huge bump in weight, I'm guessing @koshkin could probably help answer that along with help answer how the SWFA Ultralight glass compares to Razor, based on price point my guess is it wouldn't compare but it also sounds like it is pretty good.

Looking at your setup below, two questions, which scope mount are you using for the DPP and what is that bronze looking thing on top of the rail on your handguard?

 

[Burdy]

Thank you Burdy. I've been seriously considering the DPP piggy backed similar to your setup with my Bushnell LRHSi on my SPR rig. You're right, they just don't make a "lightweight" FFP low magnification optic, in fact, I can't find any that crack the 20oz barrier. Not sure what it is about FFP designs that create such a huge bump in weight, I'm guessing @koshkin could probably help answer that along with help answer how the SWFA Ultralight glass compares to Razor, based on price point my guess is it wouldn't compare but it also sounds like it is pretty good.

Looking at your setup below, two questions, which scope mount are you using for the DPP and what is that bronze looking thing on top of the rail on your handguard?

View attachment 7509266

Kahles K18i is the optic. The object you drew the rectangle around are the bipod legs that insert into the barricade stop. The entire system is 3.5 ounces. Heathen Systems.

 

[Slevin182]

Just want to clarify you had the "ATACR" 1-8 and not the "NX8" 1-8? Reason I ask is most feedback on ATACR 1-8 is that it has a very good eyebox whereas the NX8 is the one more finicky.

Correct. Never used the NX8 1-8, only the ATACR. The eyebox was good, from what I've read as good as it gets for a FFP LPVO. Going to the Razor was a big difference though. I'm happy with it and I wasn't with the ATACR. YMMV

 

[gnochi]

Thank you Burdy. I've been seriously considering the DPP piggy backed similar to your setup with my Bushnell LRHSi on my SPR rig. You're right, they just don't make a "lightweight" FFP low magnification optic, in fact, I can't find any that crack the 20oz barrier. Not sure what it is about FFP designs that create such a huge bump in weight, I'm guessing @koshkin could probably help answer that along with help answer how the SWFA Ultralight glass compares to Razor, based on price point my guess is it wouldn't compare but it also sounds like it is pretty good.

Looking at your setup below, two questions, which scope mount are you using for the DPP and what is that bronze looking thing on top of the rail on your handguard?

View attachment 7509266

The new March 1-10 Shorty DFP is 17.6oz, and the Athlon Ares ETR 1-10 FFP is 19.2oz.

That said you can’t actually buy either of them just get, but that is on track to change in the next few months.

 

[Hoax001]

I'm running an NX8 on a 14.5 and love it. There's no LPVO that's perfect at everything due to constraints of the mag range, so decide what's most important to you (weight, footprint, reticle, edge to edge clarity, eyebox, etc.).

The NX8 is light and compact, so handling wise it feels close to a red dot to me, whereas with other optics it's obvious I'm swinging a big scope around. Eye box is a little tight, but if you set it up with proper eye relief shouldn't be a problem at all, especially if you're planning to run an offset dot for close up. Reticle is nice as well - fat center dot and super bright so works well at 1X, cross hairs below are thin enough for shooting at distance.

Agreed. You are always going to be compromising at some point. If a small lightweight footprint is what you are looking for then the NX8 1-8 is the way to go. On 1x you are basically running a red dot and its very bright. The eye box is the only real downside to the NX8 from my experience with it. I had to play around with my stock set-up, but once I did it worked fine. If it had the wind dot reticle like the ATACR it would be near perfect.

 

[Glassaholic]

The new March 1-10 Shorty DFP is 17.6oz, and the Athlon Ares ETR 1-10 FFP is 19.2oz.

That said you can’t actually buy either of them just get, but that is on track to change in the next few months.

Not LPVO's, I know those dip below 20oz, I'm thinking 2-10's, 2-12's with 36 - 42mm objectives.

 

[Glassaholic]

Kahles K18i is the optic. The object you drew the rectangle around are the bipod legs that insert into the barricade stop. The entire system is 3.5 ounces. Heathen Systems.

Sorry, I meant the scope tube mount that the DPP is bolted to on the scope. I see now with the bipod legs on the barricade stop, you have the wrap holding the legs, that is an interesting light weight setup... when it comes to AR stuff I am a bit behind the times and find myself playing catchup.

 

[Strykervet]

The March looks like the titties, I wish they did a mil/vet discount. That 1-8x is literally the size of a prismatic.

I'll probably go with the ATACR but the Mk8 could be in the running if it's better than the ATACR, it's slightly more expensive --my problem is I can't exactly check either out first. I'll need advice.

I do have a USO 1-8x, one of the older ones, and it's one of the most all around useful scopes I have.

I think I'd like a micro aimpoint alongside the 4-16 ATACR or Mk6 on a Mk20 rifle but not so sure I'd put one on a 1-8x. But I tend to keep it at 4x most of the time and I can make that work at any distance.

Army apparently thought the Sig Tango6T was the way to go... 1-6x, SFP --I'd hate to have to teach SDM's on that goddamn thing. Not that there's anything wrong with SFP it's just teaching shooting math on an ACOG was hard enough in four weeks and they're doing it in two.

 

[Glassaholic]

The March looks like the titties, I wish they did a mil/vet discount. That 1-8x is literally the size of a prismatic.

Contact Don at Long Range Supply, he has the best prices I've seen on March

All March Riflescopes

 

[gnochi]

Contact Don at Long Range Supply, he has the best prices I've seen on March

All March Riflescopes

That’s below the dealer discount (via 03FFL) I get from Other Notable Dealers... hot damn. Is there not a MAP on these???

 

[Glassaholic]

That’s below the dealer discount (via 03FFL) I get from Other Notable Dealers... hot damn. Is there not a MAP on these???

There is MAP but let's keep it the Hide's little secret

 

[Burdy]

Sorry, I meant the scope tube mount that the DPP is bolted to on the scope. I see now with the bipod legs on the barricade stop, you have the wrap holding the legs, that is an interesting light weight setup... when it comes to AR stuff I am a bit behind the times and find myself playing catchup.

My bad, the DPP mount is Reptilia

 

[Burdy]

March needs some tree reticles.

 

[Choid]

I've been lusting after the capped March 1-10X. Probably, definitely going to buy one soon.

Aren't you all worried that side parallax on these is a bad idea. Only thing keeping me from jumping.

 

[Glassaholic]

March needs some tree reticles.

Do you mean for the LPVO like the 1-8 and 1-10 - I agree, took them a while to get a good tree reticle but finally got the FML-TR1 and FML-PDK for their 5-42 and 4.5-28 scopes that I believe will slowly propagate down to the other (long range) scopes. But I'd like to see a very nice mil tree similar to ATACR and Gen III as well as a nice BDC.

 

[Burdy]

Do you mean for the LPVO like the 1-8 and 1-10 - I agree, took them a while to get a good tree reticle but finally got the FML-TR1 and FML-PDK for their 5-42 and 4.5-28 scopes that I believe will slowly propagate down to the other (long range) scopes. But I'd like to see a very nice mil tree similar to ATACR and Gen III as well as a nice BDC.

Yes, any LPVO over 4 power should have some wind holds. The vast majority of use is with 55-62g 5.56 and just 5 mph of wind at 600 yards can be an issue. They are designed to be fast and course, no one is touching the windage on a LPVO.

 

[Glassaholic]

Yes, any LPVO over 4 power should have some wind holds. The vast majority of use is with 55-62g 5.56 and just 5 mph of wind at 600 yards can be an issue. They are designed to be fast and course, no one is touching the windage on a LPVO.

Do you have a "favorite" tree reticle for LPVO, or have some suggested enhancements for one you really admire, but is "not quite there"?

 

[accurate_okie]

I'm kinda likng the Trijicon Accuppwer 1-8 for a FFP LPVO. Haven't had any issues with it in a couple years. Definitely get the red over the green for brightness.

 

[Jigstick]

The new Trijicon VCOGS look interesting

 

[Burdy]

Do you have a "favorite" tree reticle for LPVO, or have some suggested enhancements for one you really admire, but is "not quite there"?

From all I have run the one that would be easiest to get 99% there would be the Kahles 3GR reticle. Add half mil elevation ticks, number the whole Mils on the elevation or at least every other whole mil, and extend from 7 mils down to 10 at it would be done. If only one change could be made, I would pick numbering the mils, nothing is more frustrating under pressure than counting.

 

[Jackalope]

NF NX8 with the tight eyebox issue

This must stem from guys that have shot red dots forever. It really isn’t an issue.

 

[Burdy]

This must stem from guys that have shot red dots forever. It really isn’t an issue.

Somehow every single attribute of any optic on Snipershide is deemed highly significant except for eyeboxes on LPVO's. I haven't figured that out yet. Literally, the number one attribute a good LPVO needs is a roomy eye box yet it gets dismissed here time and time again. No other weapon platform save for handguns will have a higher degree of off axis shots taken or time sensitive shots without a consistent cheek weld, yet people still say it's a non issue. I wonder why more people are married to their LPVO purchases than their precision optics? Such a strange phenomenon. A tight eyebox on a LPVO should be an immediate non-starter if you plan on using that optic in any type of dynamic environment, period.

 

[Jackalope]

If the majority of your shots are off axis, time sensitive and you can’t get a consistent cheek weld, you shouldn’t run a magnified optic.

 

[rottenruger]

Love my Razor. Sharp images and a lot of function for the price. Running with a Spuhr mount with offset T1 dot.

How many college degrees does it take to shoot that thing effectively?

 

[Burdy]

If the majority of your shots are off axis, time sensitive and you can’t get a consistent cheek weld, you shouldn’t run a magnified optic.

Well, the LPVO is loved for its versatility in a variety of situations, both CQB and at distance. The tradeoff in running an LPVO with a forgiving eye box for dynamic CQB situations are far less than the tradeoffs of making consistent hits with a red dot at 600 yards. Of course, if you know you will only be doing one or the other, then obviously you should pick the best tool for the job.
If you look at two of the most popular LPVO's run in theater by SF, the Razor 1-6 and Kahles K16i, both have fundamental flaws that other LPVO's address, but both have one thing in common, incredible eye boxes.
If I know I am going to do nothing but CQB, of course, I am grabbing my EOTech. If I have no idea what I will be facing, the LPVO will be the wisest choice.
I've also found that the LPVO is useful for things other than just making hits. PID and/or searching for targets is something that is pretty difficult to perform with a red dot and I find the LPVO is almost invaluable in this regard.