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Sometimes an especially accurate rifle will make it down the pipe but honestly all of these rifles are capable of moa or better. My dpms sass regularly shot 3/4 moa how much more do you need to flex your weiner online?
Perhaps you spent some time reading and doing research, we wont have to keep retyping this every couple months.
There needs to be required reading before someone is allowed to post.
In the last couple months there has been reports of 4-6 week order to ship times.
Combination of supply catching up/ Larue unfucking his barrel situation / ton of customers who canncelled reducing the backlog.
Luck rarely has anything to do with it.
People work, those that work harder & smarter usually end up with more toys.
Then again some people live in trailers and have a $100K gun collection. Its not hard to do if its your focus.
Must be one hell of a shooter to hold 1/4 MOA with a gas gun, every group. In fact, you could probably win some national comps with amazing shooting skills like that.
Well I have only shot 3 groups at 100 yards, 2 groups at 200 yards and only 1 group at 300 yard so far, with a barrel cleaning between each 5 shot group. I would consider myself a very good shot as I have been shooting precision for over 25 years. I have had training from a Marine Scout Sniper, and many years on the Police Force. I shot all of these groups on a perfect day as well with no wind and 60 degrees temperature. The biggest test for this rifle will be out to 700, 800, 900 and 1000 yards. I really hope this thing will hold 1/4 MOA at those long ranges, but a 2 1/2" group at 1000 yards from a Semi Automatic would probably be a World Record. I would be happy with 5" groups at 1000 yards actually.
So you have 30 rounds down range with a gun and have full confidence in it? Most barrels take a few hundred rounds to settle in.
Just saying.
It could be done. Jason Peterson shot a 4.5" group at 1000 with a 20" 5.56x42 (6.8 necked down to .224)shooting 80gr Amax around 2900fps. I shot 1 group of 5 into .170" at 100yds out of another 5.56x42 several years ago using 75gr Amax. I have a 6BRX that will shoot 1/4 MOA with 95SMKs and 105 Lapuas. Doesn't mean I can hold 1/4 MOA out to 1000 though. I built a 7mm-08 Nexgen for a guy 3-4 years ago that shot a .18" 5 shot group with Barnes 140gr TSX hunting bullets. I'm betting there are a bunch of gas guns that could shoot 1/4-1/2 MOA if the shooter could.
Cry for help
I have been reading through this thread. I am very interested in acquiring an AR10 (Maker Undecided). But sifting through the BS is making near unbearable. If only we had a moderator to police the stupidity.....
I have been reading through this thread. I am very interested in acquiring an AR10 (Maker Undecided). But sifting through the BS is making near unbearable. If only we had a moderator to police the stupidity.....
With the except of companies like hess/blackthorn/vulcan all the 308 ARs you see out there are good to go honestly. So what it comes down to desired features and budget.
siscoe308 What BCP said is right on the money. All of the rifles talked about in this forum range from good to excellent depending on what you are looking for and how much money you have to spend. A lot of people in here including myself are always talking about which rifle is the most accurate or which has the best quality but this is just our own EGOS talking. I would be more than happy with any of these, LARUE, GAP-10, JP LRP-07, LWRC REPR, POF 308, ARMALITE, KAC and so on. Just figure out what you are going to use the rifle for and how much you want to spend and then you will be able to narrow it down to one of these fine rifles talked about in here. Good luck
No wonder cobracutter hates me with pos rifles like these
It shoots great for me, my best group was well under moa. Even with 150 gr fmj-bt's it shoots very well.
No wonder cobracutter hates me with pos rifles like these
It shoots great for me, my best group was well under moa. Even with 150 gr fmj-bt's it shoots very well.
Just ordered mine! Can't wait!
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So you ordered the REPR? You won't be disappointed. Cobracutter will be, but you won't.
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading"
-- Thomas Jefferson
Yep! I really like the larue, but it looks damn near impossible to get. And I love everything about the repr.
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No, no its not "battle tested" It might have been torture tested but the only current "Battle Tested" .308 AR's on the market are KAC's offering and LMT's offering.
Any company that advertises "battle tested" or "combat proven" are typically selling you beach front property in Arizona. Didnt LWRC just get bought by Colt anyway?
Between the two the OP asked about, I'd be swayed toward the larue, but only if I could have it most ricky tic, GAP makes a hellava nice rifle and its cheaper than the Larue, JP is a close second.
That being said, I had this quandary 6 months ago, went LMT because I couldn't afford a KAC and didnt want to wait for a GAP. I have zero complaints about the rifle.
That's the specwar 7.62 on mine. Really like the can for multiple reasons esp compared to my sdn6. There is a poi shift with the can vs without but no negative effect on accuracy.
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading"
-- Thomas Jefferson
Riggsie,
There are not too many guys that have had the chance to use several of these rifles. We did a big write up with the Vuurwapen blog on the REPR (I wanted to like it too). It just doesn't shoot (We had 3 different uppers). LWRCi is a good company and they make nice products, but the REPR just can't deliver. I heard they are making it in a non-piston version, but haven't really looked into it.
I have had trouble with OBR's in the past. They shoot really good, but I have found they can be very finicky about ammo and being clean. However, for some reason the new PredatOBR's seem to run really good and shoot awesome. When you look at the extra cost for a Larue, it is really meaningless if you plan on actually shooting it. You can get one on GB for a few hundred more if you don't mind waiting, and the 1k or extra you pay over a LMT will be miniscule when compared to the price of glassing it and feeding it. Get the right gun and don't look back.
I also have an LMT, and it runs good and shoots good as well. It is just not the Larue. I have a 16" 3.08, a 14.5" .308, and a TOBR in 6.5 CM with proof bbl. My 14.5 is getting 2470 fps off a magneto speed (not chrono) with 168gr AMAX and will still work a 10" plate @ 1000.
There are not too many guys that have had the chance to use several of these rifles. We did a big write up with the Vuurwapen blog on the REPR (I wanted to like it too). It just doesn't shoot (We had 3 different uppers). LWRCi is a good company and they make nice products, but the REPR just can't deliver. I heard they are making it in a non-piston version, but haven't really looked into it.
I have had trouble with OBR's in the past. They shoot really good, but I have found they can be very finicky about ammo and being clean. However, for some reason the new PredatOBR's seem to run really good and shoot awesome. When you look at the extra cost for a Larue, it is really meaningless if you plan on actually shooting it. You can get one on GB for a few hundred more if you don't mind waiting, and the 1k or extra you pay over a LMT will be miniscule when compared to the price of glassing it and feeding it. Get the right gun and don't look back.
I also have an LMT, and it runs good and shoots good as well. It is just not the Larue. I have a 16" 3.08, a 14.5" .308, and a TOBR in 6.5 CM with proof bbl. My 14.5 is getting 2470 fps off a magneto speed (not chrono) with 168gr AMAX and will still work a 10" plate @ 1000.
A) Just because a rifle is not adopted by a military at large does not mean it isn't battle tested. There are plenty LWRC rifles seeing real action.
B) The sale to Colt was a rumor that turned out not to be true it seems. If a deal is in the works it hasn't happened yet and the rumored sale was supposed to have been executed already.
So you ordered the REPR? You won't be disappointed. Cobracutter will be, but you won't.
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading"
-- Thomas Jefferson
Good thing I read your post, I would have never known my repr doesn't deliver if I hadn't.
Actualy the fact that no military units of note are using means it is not battle tested. To be battle tested, it needs to be used in actual combat, in enough numbers, to a performance standard to be considered tested.
Where are all these LWRC rifles seeing real action? Please show me sources, units, sample size, deployments, rounds counts, malfunction reports, AAR's or white papers on this weapons perfromance in combat. Just beacuse a small section of some obscure gov agency have a handfull of guns, doesn't mean shit. Plenty of local, state and federal agencies use absolute garbage and shit gear based on ignorance of the market, testers, shooters and procurement.
The truth is, LWRC are overpriced and over hyped guns that are lower quality and reliability than Basic colt or LMT guns. They make their nut selling to retards to read guns and ammo and their entire cheering section is the same idiots who went out and dropped the cash and want to jusify their purchase. Anyone who has run the recent crop of Guns, knows whats work, what doesnt work and what needs to be thrown into a metal shredder.
If you want actual weapons that have been proven in combat, in numbers, for a while.............they are out there. Pretending that the REPR is even close to the level of those other systems is comical at best.
They are obscure government agencies and PMCs but I've seen plenty of pictures and know someone that used one in Afghanistan. Anecdotal evidence granted but my friend had no problems with his in many gun fights and neither did anyone that he knew using one.
That is your opinion, for which you have limited first hand knowledge and only anecdotal evidence.
Being in combat doesn't mean you perform well. Like you said plenty of local and state departments use garbage, so does the military. The MARSOC testing for the new handgun was proof that the procurement process is ridiculous. One of the Colt frames cracked. I've seen the photos. They were still awarded the contract. It's just as much about politics and ass kissing as it is weapon performance.
I've heard a LOT of anecdotal evidence that KAC rifles are garbage. Sure they are accurate but accuracy doesn't get you crap if the gun is always jamming and breaking. Does the evidence bare that out? I'd hope not since the military keeps sending guys out with those things but that gives you the usefulness of anecdotal evidence.
Your opinions of LWRC are, well opinions. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and yours stinks. It's not hard to deduce that you have a serious personal problem with the company from this thread and any other LWRC related thread on this forum. I can't begin to think what terrible thing must have happened to you. While I'm sure you're unbiased opinion is appreciated by a select few, I think I can speak for another select majority that having you shit on thread after thread about LWRC or otherwise, as I've noticed seems to be your MO, is getting old.
As long as people parrot ignorance about something they don't understand, I will correct them.
I have no personal problem with the compnay, other than they lie and mislead the public. Plenty of companies do this. They just happen to be one of them, and there is a nice little list of companies in the same category.
If you want to be lied to, or given shit info/advice.......then go find another forum. We are here to learn and get better, not play fuck fuck games with idiots who don't understand simple basline concepts of this discipline.
Everyone might have an opinion, but they are all not equal or even relivent. Just beacuse you have the ability to open your mouth a spew ignorant bullshit, does not mean you should. Nor should others have to read through the dribble in their quest for information/learning.
There are onscure agencies that use Kel tecs and PMC's that use DPMS/Oly arms (hell I saw ones running 10" FAL's in Iraq, which is laughable in itself)....There was a SF guy at the range in theater when I was test firing unit weapons who had a DPMS 7" kitty Kat upper on his M4. Do you need me to explain how retarded this is? One or two or a half of dozens doesn't mean shit. There were more countersniper scopes used in combat than LWRC guns.
So you know my experince level now? Thats the funny thing about these gun craze cycles. It brings new people who think they know what they are talking about into the shooting world. Same bullshit, urban myth, overhyped ignorance with every wave of them.
The SR-25 is probally the most reliable Large frame AR ever made all things being considered, and has been tested and proven as such. Me thinks you do not really understand what your trying to say.
You still haven't told us why you do not like lwrc... You say they are shit but you have never said why? We understand you do not like the company, but has the weapon system actually failed you?
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IMO any 308 rifle that costs over $2500 is too high priced. I know what it cost to machine the parts and build a rifle.
They make plenty of profit at $2500. If you don't mind letting the company you buy from make $2000 profit on each rifle then go right ahead and pay it.
They make plenty of profit at $2500. If you don't mind letting the company you buy from make $2000 profit on each rifle then go right ahead and pay it.
Ive used LWRC and have done so in austere conditions and Im here to tell you the experience wasnt good. We put them away and went back to what we were using. It only liked a specific weighted bullet and could barely hold a sub 1 MOA group with that. We emailed them... and they didnt respond in a timely fasion... so we figured it out on our own. To their credit, they did respond eventually and told us what we already discovered. Im not saying they dont make good rifles... but they are "custom" rifles and with that... you get what you get.
Hope that helps bud... Cheers mate
Hope that helps bud... Cheers mate
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I can attest that my M6A2 SPR only likes certain bullets. Bulk stuff is iffy. 55 grain PMC brass .223 will run about 1.5 MOA. 55 grain Independence and Tula will only shoot about 3 MOA. I've got to go to 77 grain SMKs from Black Hills in their .223 loading to get sub MOA. I've not tried or found Black Hills 5.56 to send through it yet.
I'm curious what Cobracutter's experience is with LWRC.
I'm curious what Cobracutter's experience is with LWRC.
Said it half a dozen times on this forum and many others over the years.
Feel free to search out posts and read it. It gets old spoon feeding basic shit to the same idiots who have IQ slightly below room temperature.
The weapon system has failed just about everyone who has run it hard. Plenty of ignorant and novice shooters who buy them , shoot a few boxes and think they know about the weapon.
The pros and cons have been listend and debated more than a dead horse.
Bottom line is there are hardly ANY pros and a whole long fucking list of cons.
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No you really don't.
You have no idea how much goes into making a high quality, from the ground up .308 Rifle. The SCAR17 is probably the best value out there in .308 guns, and its CHEAP realitive to what it brings to the table at ~$2800.
If its so easy, then go out and get a couple million in loans, build a plant, design the parts, hire a staff, source materials, Licensing/Bonding, oversee production/testing , marketing, distribution, Customer service, Warranty service and sell your guns for $2000 profit each. Even if the profit margin was $2,000 a gun, you would have to sell THOUSANDS a year to even get close to a break even point, which reoccurring fixed and variable costs. This is assuming there is even demand for your product and you offer something that other companies have spent millions and years developing/refining.
Lots of people make statements about what something is worth or how much someone should make or what are acceptable profits for a company..............We call them Communists.
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I've looked for your resume on this and can't find it. If you would deign yourself to enlighten us it would be appreciated.
I'm also curious what you consider pros and cons for LWRC or is it all piston AR type guns in general?
You aren't as smart as you think you are. I'm sitting here watching a room full of CNCs machining gun parts...I own the business.
I'm thinking this guy may work for F&D, the ones suing LWRC, sounds like the right attitude.
Colby Cutter, is that you?
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So where is your $2500 high end .308 AR? If its so easy why aren't you making any money doing this?
What parts are you producing?
If you're so smart figure it out. If you really think you are a genius for figuring out how to modify Stoners design a little here and there and adding a piston system then you are delusional. Most good machinist that can write programs with Mastercam or model with Rhino can change things.
We don't manufacture a $2500 AR because I know I can make more money faster supplying the parts everyone is using or make parts that are compatible with the popular platforms. Do you make more money selling 1000 high end ARs or 500,000 parts? Business is all about the money. I don't need to make a name for myself by trying to introduce a rifle so others can pump up my ego. I was more of the unknown engineer building high rises all over the country for 25 years. There are easy ways to make money and hard ways. Running $200 million dollar construction projects it was my job to figure out the easy ways. After the first 45 days or so 7 years ago each of my machines make $2/min. I could run them 24 hrs a day and still not meet the demand for parts. It's just a little company but I make more money than I can spend.
We make receivers, bolts, carriers, barrel extensions, barrels, muzzle devices and handguards.
Agreed. I would ignore any information that is over the top and things that say stuff like "my friend has used this in a lot of firefights". Best is to go off of personal 1st hand experience and guys that actually use these rifles for things other than shooting groups at 100 yards. Feel free to message me if you have questions. There are guys on here that have a lot of experience and some with a lot more than I. But like you said, sifting through the BS is difficult and many guys may know a lot about one thing and start running there mouth about something else based on what they heard or think, not what they have done.
I currently own 1 LMT MWS and 3 Larue PredatOBR's. I have also done an extensive review on the REPR. A rifle sent to us to test by LWRCi. I ran a OBR as a Larue sponsored shooter for the 24-Hour Sniper Challenge in 2012, it had issues. I was a Marine Scout Sniper and I currently run the precision rifle program at Sniper Country in Utah where we have steel out to 1800 and movers out to 800. Again, not saying I know everything, but I have used these rifles, and used them in a capacity that is beyond shooting groups at the local 300 yard range off a bench. If you want good info, I would make sure you vet your sources.
I currently own 1 LMT MWS and 3 Larue PredatOBR's. I have also done an extensive review on the REPR. A rifle sent to us to test by LWRCi. I ran a OBR as a Larue sponsored shooter for the 24-Hour Sniper Challenge in 2012, it had issues. I was a Marine Scout Sniper and I currently run the precision rifle program at Sniper Country in Utah where we have steel out to 1800 and movers out to 800. Again, not saying I know everything, but I have used these rifles, and used them in a capacity that is beyond shooting groups at the local 300 yard range off a bench. If you want good info, I would make sure you vet your sources.
He asked for info based on experience, having not owned one. What did I say about yours? Not really sure what that has to do with anything other than if you are getting defensive because there is some bashing directed at the rifle you chose. If yours shoots, good for you man. I have heard some guys like them and can get them to group with certain loads. I don't have anything against LWRCi, I wanted the gun to be awesome. But after they sent us the 3rd upper and it still didn't group well, it was hard to argue with the all the complaints online. What are you shooting out of it and what results are you getting?
If it's so easy, then why do so few companies actualy produce quality products?
Good, well that explains the pleortha of shitty AR parts that have flooded the market in the last 5 years. No mention of the company you "own" in your profile, what are you ashamed?
Explain where there is not 1 sub $2500 quality AR10 gun out there? If it is so easy and cheap, where are they?
Let's not discuss business operations and profit margins when 80% of small businesses fail you can sell all the little parts you want if you don't make money your sitting at home. like cobra said if this was something John Doe could do why can I count on one hand companies id buy a gas gun from.
Just for shits and giggles. Compare a DPMS Gen II for $1100 to your F&D whatever for $3300. Several guys report groups of 1/2" which is pretty close to what yours will do.
Anyone can slap a Krieger barrel in a DPMS massage it a fuzz and shoot 1/4" groups for $600. How many people can even shoot 1/4" groups consistently? CAN the average joe blow tell the difference or is he buying something to show his friends when they come over or maybe if he buys a rifle that is expensive enough he thinks it will make him a better shot?
When I started shooting there weren't any $2500 rifles on the market. It was a simple thing. Call Krieger and buy a $300 blank, chamber it in 95 Palma, drill the gas port the correct size and go shoot 1/4" groups. Same deal with a 243.
Do you think you're going to sell shit to the military? How many sniper rifles does the military buy a year? They buy Colt M4 fr $600 so how bad will they beat you down on price and will you make any money after it? Meanwhile DPMS and Bushmaster are selling 10,000 rifles a month ea to civilians. For the last 10 years everyone has been getting along just fine with the rifles on the market and they aren't yours. Piston? not a fan, just don't need it.
I don't see you company in your sig line either... If we aren't a sponsor we aren't allowed to advertise. I don't come here to advertise I come here for the entertainment.
HK, building a successful business is about being smart with business decisions. Would a smart man go in the hole a few mil making a special project not knowing if it will sell and then when it does sell it takes a few years after the point in time the object starts selling to get out of the red before he starts turning a profit? That's the difference. I was turning a profit less than 2 months after I started. After a few CNCs are paid for each one of them will pay for another about every 16 weeks. Every one you add brings in another $4000 a month on average. Figure out how much that comes to in 5 years if you don't pay cash for a $70,000 wakeboard boat, a $110,000 mercedes, a few harleys and lake property every year.
If you can't build your own shit you must rely on others to build exactly what you want. These days there are a lot of guys building their own because they can get exactly what they want for less money than buying a complete firearm.
It doesn't bother me that people believe the hype and buy into all that shit but I know better and build my own...for less. I have a SCAR and paying for it didn't bother me but I wouldn't pay $3000+ for a LWRC or F&D since it's my choice.
OP, between the 2 go with the OBR.
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