Advanced Marksmanship Lying to Ourselves About What Makes a Difference.

[ArTeeKay]

I'm gonna get up on my soapbox here and sort of scream at the sky for a minute, so bear with me please. I've posted a bit about this in other threads and decided to just make one dedicated to the thought. (This thread runs a bit parallel to Frank's, regarding the RifleKraft method of shooting analysis, but I want to talk about what's being done that's incorrect first)

Why are so many people happy to be wrong, but become indignant when that's pointed out?

The problem as I see it has three distinct parts, the problem being that lots of folks in the shooting community at large, including a number of folks here as well, have no fucking clue as to how to become better than average shooters.

Part the first, the gear race. Past a certain point, the rifle, the scope, the beanbags, the bipods, they all work the same. Now because I'm gonna have some shit bird claiming "just as good!" and some other asshat replying "jUsT aS GoOd!¡", I'm not talking about comparing a Barska or a Tasco to a TT or SB, or a Savage or Remington to an AI or TacOps rifle. Those things have meaningful qualitative differences between them. What I'm saying is the shit flinging between fanboys of ZCO and Vortex and NF means so little as to be actively counter productive to making determinations about which features the shooting community at large needs to hit targets better. Case in point, the million reticle designs currently being put into scopes. At which point do we say "enough, this is just making things more confusing now."

Part Deux, the fucking ammo nonsense. How many threads have there been now about OCW, and ladder testing, and the "Saterlee method" and positive compensation and shit fights about who's bullet manufacturer could beat up whose? Time and again I see the conclusion reached that if you and your rifle can shoot 1 MOA with a given load at distance, just stop, fucking with it more isn't going to make things meaningfully better. At this point, making good enough ammo is easy, and it's high time we had a frank discussion about where the point of diminishing returns is, and when we need to take responsibility for not being able to shoot inside our ammo. You're trying to tell me your ammo shooting .75 instead of .3 MOA is the reason you missed the full sized silhouette at 1200 yards in switching winds from a fence rail rest? Sure pal.

And three, let's all just quit lying about the data we collect, and what it means. It's time to just stop racing paper and just go shoot. The easy access to chronographs and borescopes and radar measured BC data and high precision measuring tools has turned a boatload of people who couldn't pass high school algebra into genius statisticians. I've seen more bad math done here than I did in any math class, and wouldn't you know it, some of you manage to hit the target anyways, despite the bizarre conclusions your "data" leads you to. I knew it was bad when a guy I talked to at my home range quoted me a bullet speed to the 1s place, as if that information wasn't a guess based on another guess. I then proceeded to watch him entirely miss his 16x16 target at 100 yards with 10 rounds trying to zero his rifle. You're not measuring what you think you're measuring, and that information doesn't mean what you think it means.

Here's what I want. Take your rifle, load it full of ammo, collect meaningful dope at the ranges you intend to shoot the rifle, then fucking practice with that equipment in productive ways. Learn to use your fancy ridiculous reticle to range and engage a target without a laser rangefinder. Quit arguing about what fill your shooting bag has in it, or getting all worked up about whether a bag should be medium or schmedium. Go figure out how to employ one bag in as many ways as possible, and figure out how to shoot without it if you have to. Stop chasing the new hot cartridge, pick a damn round, and learn your fucking dope so you can hit a target on demand at any range between the end of your nose and 1000 yards or so without having to consult your notebook. And quit pretending strapping 6 pounds of steel weights to your 6BRA meets any of the criteria for being "practical", and go take that rifle for a 10 mile hike, then lay down and shoot at something with two rounds and get good hits when you get back. Then do that whole thing again, and tell me if you took the weights off for the second round.

I could keep going, but at some point, more quits being better. So I'll get off my box and give the shitbirds a chance to chime in before I work myself up anymore.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

how the hell you get that "Advanced Marksmanship" box on your thread? just that cool?

 

[Junco Grande]

Lot of good ol common sense here.

 

[OREGUN]

Preach!

 

[ArTeeKay]

The kicker is all of this has been said over and over and over again. I just can't figure out why the fuck people won't listen. Do any of you guys have any insight?

I'd like guys to get proficient with their guns. I've long been a proponent of the "man with one rifle" theory of marksmanship. A guy who is constantly buying new guns, or trying new chamberings, or swapping optics around, or bouncing back and forth between chassis and stocks seems unlikely to ever really become "familiar" with it, have it be an extension of his hand and eye.

I do realize I'm preaching to the choir here. If you're reading my tirade, you're likely shooting enough with your systems that you're more than simply proficient. But I see so many guys buying the latest and greatest and thinking they can pay their way into skills. How do we go about instilling a more productive mindset in the average shooter? How do we counteract the marketing hype? What's the best way to approach giving advice to a person who's interested in precision shooting, but doesn't have enough background to understand that it's the Indian, not the arrow?

 

[308pirate]

The kicker is all of this has been said over and over and over again. I just can't figure out why the fuck people won't listen. Do any of you guys have any insight?

I'd like guys to get proficient with their guns. I've long been a proponent of the "man with one rifle" theory of marksmanship. A guy who is constantly buying new guns, or trying new chamberings, or swapping optics around, or bouncing back and forth between chassis and stocks seems unlikely to ever really become "familiar" with it, have it be an extension of his hand and eye.

I do realize I'm preaching to the choir here. If you're reading my tirade, you're likely shooting enough with your systems that you're more than simply proficient. But I see so many guys buying the latest and greatest and thinking they can pay their way into skills. How do we go about instilling a more productive mindset in the average shooter? How do we counteract the marketing hype? What's the best way to approach giving advice to a person who's interested in precision shooting, but doesn't have enough background to understand that it's the Indian, not the arrow?

It's human nature and it's the same shit in every shooting sport I've ever been in. If you think it's bad with rifles, try pistol shooters........morons arguing endlessly about every ammo/gear/pistol minutia but can't shoot worth a shit even under zero pressure.

 

[OREGUN]

The kicker is all of this has been said over and over and over again. I just can't figure out why the fuck people won't listen. Do any of you guys have any insight?

I'd like guys to get proficient with their guns. I've long been a proponent of the "man with one rifle" theory of marksmanship. A guy who is constantly buying new guns, or trying new chamberings, or swapping optics around, or bouncing back and forth between chassis and stocks seems unlikely to ever really become "familiar" with it, have it be an extension of his hand and eye.

I do realize I'm preaching to the choir here. If you're reading my tirade, you're likely shooting enough with your systems that you're more than simply proficient. But I see so many guys buying the latest and greatest and thinking they can pay their way into skills. How do we go about instilling a more productive mindset in the average shooter? How do we counteract the marketing hype? What's the best way to approach giving advice to a person who's interested in precision shooting, but doesn't have enough background to understand that it's the Indian, not the arrow?

because practicing…actual shooting, with the same old equipment, not making excuses, is hard, boring and not particularly sexy. Buying new stuff provides a dopamine shower, pretending that “factory ammo isn’t accurate enough”, telling themselves that the chassis they have doesn‘t have the perfect grip angle to provide the best trigger press….etc, is way easier.

 

[ArTeeKay]

@OREGUN, @308pirate, I'm right there with you. I've heard some of the most inane, absurd excuses for poor ability, and nearly none of them are "I don't spend enough time with my gun in my hands". I guess the big question behind all this is how do you get a person to have a moment of honest evaluation of themselves, and help them come to the understanding that the just need to work harder and get good, instead of throwing money at their deficiencies?

Is it all shooter dependent, different approaches for different personalities? Or are there people that you're just not ever gonna reach, and accepting that will make me both happier and calmer, especially when I see Elmer Fudd out showering new shooters with "old wisdom" that they're gonna have to train themselves out of when they learn there's a better way?

 

[Tchitcherine]

Let Them Be Wrong.

 

[MadDuner]

I don’t think you can blanketedly discount the amassed trigger time for some Fudds or their results. They learned to shoot without the latest greatest innovations and toys - while still making the shots without all the cool stuff. These guys won’t necessarily be using cell phone apps or Laser range finders...

 

[OREGUN]

I had a lot more thoughts.

I’ve recently changed my tune a bit to actually thinking that if you want to be a great shooter, you don’t have the time to also be a reloader (exceptions excluded, or course). Reloading is a distraction that people get hung up on and spend their time doing instead of practicing the thing they say they want to be good at: shooting. We need to stop suggesting that reloading is required for accurate ammo and that it’s more cost effective to reload. It isn’t. This is Fudd mindset at its worst…like telling people a lead sled will help them really be accurate.

I’m not sure how to counteract the hype and excitement of the newest and greatest gear. People need to have confidence in their gear. If that means being convinced that they must have a ZCO, the only thing that hurts is their wallet. And to some extent, fancy gear tends to have design features that simplify and facilitate whatever it is designed for so I won’t argue if you want to buy a MATRIX PRO (or whatever) because it’s the new hotness. It probably will make some part of your process a little easier even if it doesn’t make you better.

As for shooters, I think it’s a mindset thing. Shooting Kraft targets will give you a very direct report of where your deficiencies lie. What you do with that is up to the shooter. If all you want is to hit an elk at 150 yards, and you tell people you only take ”ethical shots” but the reality is you will settle for tracking a gut shot all day or needing three shots and a follow up from a buddy to “finally put it down” then A: you are a shitty person and B: you probably won’t be willing to spend the time to get any better than pie plate accuracy at 100 yards. However, if you believe that precision rifle should be precise and you want to win, whatever that means in your discipline, you will shoot that Kraft target and realize you suck at standing shots and all 12 rounds went low and so you shoot another and another and another until your zero is better and your groups shrink.

One thing I think is lacking in shooting is access to personalized instruction, to the level of coaching. Let’s say you are that guy who wants to get better and you shoot a bunch and take group classes and listen to podcasts and subscribe to online content and still miss a bunch of targets on match day. Who is there to reach out to for guidance? Another class put on by experts for 15 shooters at a time that teaches a new method but doesn’t actually address your issue? The internet? A buddy who shoots? If you are only advancing when you happen to catch the 2 minutes of a class that addresses your particular issue, progress is slow and expensive. I have, more than once, found myself thinking I would happily pay double the money I’ve spent on classes to just have an experienced coach who could help ME with MY process. But when you reach out to people that could fill that role, they aren’t interested, it’s not in line with their goals, etc. Tell that story to someone who has a personal pitching coach for their kid who is in softball (for example) and they will remind you that LOTS of other competitive athletic pursuits (or music, or scoring highly on the SAT, or driving, or…) have much better access to training than shooting does.

So, yes there are people you can’t reach, who just shoot because it’s fun and have excuses for their misses or who just don’t care because the bro hang was good and they got some swag. It’s a process for everyone. Learning to synthesize advice from a variety of sources and having to figure out what works seems to be common to shooters. I try REALLY HARD to give the best advice I can when someone asks me about shooting or about their struggles in the process while at the same time being really careful to not be that guy who isn't helpful to new shooters (often out of not wanting to give bad advice). I think that’s about the best you can do.

 

[Dot3]

But I see so many guys buying the latest and greatest and thinking they can pay their way into skills. How do we go about instilling a more productive mindset in the average shooter?

It's easy. Just be a poor. Like me. Can't get lost in gear if you don't have gear to get lost in!

 

[308pirate]

@ArTeeKay I have concluded that the drive to excel is internal. Some have it, most don't. All you can do is be alert for those who have and help them, while ignoring those who don't have the desire and drive.

 

[KnowNothing256]

I had a lot more thoughts.

I’ve recently changed my tune a bit to actually thinking that if you want to be a great shooter, you don’t have the time to also be a reloader (exceptions excluded, or course). Reloading is a distraction that people get hung up on and spend their time doing instead of practicing the thing they say they want to be good at: shooting. We need to stop suggesting that reloading is required for accurate ammo and that it’s more cost effective to reload. It isn’t. This is Fudd mindset at its worst…like telling people a lead sled will help them really be accurate.

I’m not sure how to counteract the hype and excitement of the newest and greatest gear. People need to have confidence in their gear. If that means being convinced that they must have a ZCO, the only thing that hurts is their wallet. And to some extent, fancy gear tends to have design features that simplify and facilitate whatever it is designed for so I won’t argue if you want to buy a MATRIX PRO (or whatever) because it’s the new hotness. It probably will make some part of your process a little easier even if it doesn’t make you better.

As for shooters, I think it’s a mindset thing. Shooting Kraft targets will give you a very direct report of where your deficiencies lie. What you do with that is up to the shooter. If all you want is to hit an elk at 150 yards, and you tell people you only take ”ethical shots” but the reality is you will settle for tracking a gut shot all day or needing three shots and a follow up from a buddy to “finally put it down” then A: you are a shitty person and B: you probably won’t be willing to spend the time to get any better than pie plate accuracy at 100 yards. However, if you believe that precision rifle should be precise and you want to win, whatever that means in your discipline, you will shoot that Kraft target and realize you suck at standing shots and all 12 rounds went low and so you shoot another and another and another until your zero is better and your groups shrink.

One thing I think is lacking in shooting is access to personalized instruction, to the level of coaching. Let’s say you are that guy who wants to get better and you shoot a bunch and take group classes and listen to podcasts and subscribe to online content and still miss a bunch of targets on match day. Who is there to reach out to for guidance? Another class put on by experts for 15 shooters at a time that teaches a new method but doesn’t actually address your issue? The internet? A buddy who shoots? If you are only advancing when you happen to catch the 2 minutes of a class that addresses your particular issue, progress is slow and expensive. I have, more than once, found myself thinking I would happily pay double the money I’ve spent on classes to just have an experienced coach who could help ME with MY process. But when you reach out to people that could fill that role, they aren’t interested, it’s not in line with their goals, etc. Tell that story to someone who has a personal pitching coach for their kid who is in softball (for example) and they will remind you that LOTS of other competitive athletic pursuits (or music, or scoring highly on the SAT, or driving, or…) have much better access to training than shooting does.

So, yes there are people you can’t reach, who just shoot because it’s fun and have excuses for their misses or who just don’t care because the bro hang was good and they got some swag. It’s a process for everyone. Learning to synthesize advice from a variety of sources and having to figure out what works seems to be common to shooters. I try REALLY HARD to give the best advice I can when someone asks me about shooting or about their struggles in the process while at the same time being really careful to not be that guy who isn't helpful to new shooters (often out of not wanting to give bad advice). I think that’s about the best you can do.

I agree with most of this, but wanted to chime in with a couple thoughts:

- I think that your assertion regarding cost effectiveness of reloading vs. factory used to be more true than it is now; when match ammo was $1 a round, then yeah it took a long time to break even on a reloading setup. But with match ammo running more in the $2-3 range for popular calibers (to say nothing of the silly cost of factory magnums), it's absolutely more cost effective for me to reload than pay for factory. Now, people like to talk about the money value of time, but if we're only talking about hard costs (versus quality of life concerns such as time with family, other hobbies, etc.), most of us couldn't (or wouldn't) exchange that time at the reloading bench for some other income generator. Anywho, bottom line here: for anyone shooting match ammo in a common centerfire cartridge, I'd say a reloading setup will pay for itself on cost alone within a couple thousand rounds. Just my take.
- I arrived at a very similar conclusion regarding one-on-one coaching versus a training class format, so I reached out to the guys at Modern Day Sniper and set up a solo week with them. One thing that surprised me but that I appreciated in hindsight was how consistent the one-on-one instruction was with the wealth of knowledge available for free in their podcast; on the other hand, it was more directly pointed at my particular training gaps, and I got instruction on some things that are much harder to teach over the speaker set (NPA and drills to practice the same, guidance on what fundamental errors were responsible for a given shot deviation high/low/left/right, discussion on gear and data management, etc.). I'd recommend the MDS guys to anyone in a heartbeat who was thinking similarly, right there with ya though.

 

[OREGUN]

I agree with most of this, but wanted to chime in with a couple thoughts:

- I think that your assertion regarding cost effectiveness of reloading vs. factory used to be more true than it is now; when match ammo was $1 a round, then yeah it took a long time to break even on a reloading setup. But with match ammo running more in the $2-3 range for popular calibers (to say nothing of the silly cost of factory magnums), it's absolutely more cost effective for me to reload than pay for factory. Now, people like to talk about the money value of time, but if we're only talking about hard costs (versus quality of life concerns such as time with family, other hobbies, etc.), most of us couldn't (or wouldn't) exchange that time at the reloading bench for some other income generator. Anywho, bottom line here: for anyone shooting match ammo in a common centerfire cartridge, I'd say a reloading setup will pay for itself on cost alone within a couple thousand rounds. Just my take.
- I arrived at a very similar conclusion regarding one-on-one coaching versus a training class format, so I reached out to the guys at Modern Day Sniper and set up a solo week with them. One thing that surprised me but that I appreciated in hindsight was how consistent the one-on-one instruction was with the wealth of knowledge available for free in their podcast; on the other hand, it was more directly pointed at my particular training gaps, and I got instruction on some things that are much harder to teach over the speaker set (NPA and drills to practice the same, guidance on what fundamental errors were responsible for a given shot deviation high/low/left/right, discussion on gear and data management, etc.). I'd recommend the MDS guys to anyone in a heartbeat who was thinking similarly, right there with ya though.

I know there are a lot of ways to argue the cost of reloading. I always come back to the fact that it’s a gear and excuse trap just like shooting can be. There’s always a better press, a fancier chronograph, a new bullet, a better way to tumble, more perfect brass that now requires a different reamer shape, more testing and monkeying around burning out barrels looking for the perfect node. “My load needs some work”, ”my seating depth isn’t right”, “do you bump your shoulder .002” or .004” cause I do .002” and it’s not shooting well”, “I tested seating depths at every .001” for 20, three shot groups and couldn’t find one that seemed better”….and on and on and on. I have thousands of dollars of reloading equipment, have an entire room dedicated to reloading in my house, am constantly monitoring multiple websites for components, have been through all the fads regarding “finding the best load”…and get this: Never once did I ever say, “I want to commit my time, money, space, and mental energy to the hobby of reloading”.

When I started shooting, someone said, “you can save money and will have better ammo if you reload.” And MAYBE ammo quality was less then than it is now (again, a Fuddism that may not be accurate any longer).

Yeah, if I had spent the same money on ammo as I have spent on reloading, I’d have fewer factory rounds than I have made/could make with my existing components. But I’d also have an extra room in my house, I’d be a better shooter having shot more and reloaded less, and I would have saved countless hours of time doing my non-hobby.

So at this point, I’d never tell a new shooter to get involved in reloading unless they were really into benchrest or f-class or if they said, “I want an expensive hobby that involves sitting around a lot and fiddling with measuring little pieces of metal.

Just buy more ammo.

But this is completely off topic.

 

[Zane1844]

This past weekend I realized how much I suck at shooting in varying, medium wind. I have no Kerstel or anything to read how fast it was, but at 800+ yards hits were hard. I’d measure where I missed with my reticle, get it a hit, then when I tried to repeat the wind changed and I’d miss on the opposite side.

You could feel the wind, when it shifted, when it stopped, but I had no clue on how to interpret it beyond shooting, gauging how far off I missed then correcting for a hit.


I did get a first round impact on a full size silhouette at 1057yds..but that is a big target. I also had success at 1100yds going 3/5, after figuring out the wind.

Overall it was fun, and a big eye opener: I still don’t know what I’m doing yet. I’ve been lucky that the other times I’ve shot at 500+ there’s been very little wind. For me, it was fun and gave me a few things to work on. When you miss, and miss a lot it really makes you think about how to improve.

The only gear related thing I’d change is my Magpul bipod, I can’t tighten it enough for it to not tilt.

 

[KnowNothing256]

I know there are a lot of ways to argue the cost of reloading. I always come back to the fact that it’s a gear and excuse trap just like shooting can be. There’s always a better press, a fancier chronograph, a new bullet, a better way to tumble, more perfect brass that now requires a different reamer shape, more testing and monkeying around burning out barrels looking for the perfect node. “My load needs some work”, ”my seating depth isn’t right”, “do you bump your shoulder .002” or .004” cause I do .002” and it’s not shooting well”, “I tested seating depths at every .001” for 20, three shot groups and couldn’t find one that seemed better”….and on and on and on. I have thousands of dollars of reloading equipment, have an entire room dedicated to reloading in my house, am constantly monitoring multiple websites for components, have been through all the fads regarding “finding the best load”…and get this: Never once did I ever say, “I want to commit my time, money, space, and mental energy to the hobby of reloading”.

When I started shooting, someone said, “you can save money and will have better ammo if you reload.” And MAYBE ammo quality was less then than it is now (again, a Fuddism that may not be accurate any longer).

Yeah, if I had spent the same money on ammo as I have spent on reloading, I’d have fewer factory rounds than I have made/could make with my existing components. But I’d also have an extra room in my house, I’d be a better shooter having shot more and reloaded less, and I would have saved countless hours of time doing my non-hobby.

So at this point, I’d never tell a new shooter to get involved in reloading unless they were really into benchrest or f-class or if they said, “I want an expensive hobby that involves sitting around a lot and fiddling with measuring little pieces of metal.

Just buy more ammo.

But this is completely off topic.

Ahh, I get the objection to reloading now, and yeah I totally agree. Listening to the excuses guys make coming off the line after a stage in which they feel they didn't perform well is a spectator sport all its own; I've had the good fortune to only shoot with good-natured folks, no meltdowns or temper tantrums, but yeah the "My barrel must be speeding up" or "My zero is bad" or "These RDFs are trash" conversations became pretty humorous once I bought into the thought that if I missed, I did something wrong.

And all that is pretty on-topic, I'd say; yeah bud, your neck tension being 0.001" instead of 0.002" isn't why you dropped four shots on that stage at 500 yards. Does that matter at 1000 yards? Quite possibly. But way more shots are taken in the 600-yard zone than 1000, and I'm also a recent convert to the concept of shooting positional drills at 100 yards. First off, I have much better access to that range; secondly, even though I won't learn wind that way very well, if I can't hit 1" dots consistently at 100 yards, I can see that and own it and work on it, none of this "well the wind died on that shot" crap haha.

And lastly, back off-topic a bit, I also agree that I don't recommend getting into reloading for someone new to the sport. It's actually kinda awful haha, I definitely come to resent the bench time, as opposed to those who enjoy it. Plus on top of that it's such a rabbit hole (as you noted), and yeah, it's really hard to imagine someone who's just learning to pull a trigger getting any enjoyment out of that process. How are you gonna evaluate a seating depth test or OCW at 100 yards when you're a 1.5-2 MOA shooter? A fool's errand.

 

[acudaowner]

if that is what makes you feel better than


god bless America

 

[ArTeeKay]

I don’t think you can blanketedly discount the amassed trigger time for some Fudds or their results. They learned to shoot without the latest greatest innovations and toys - while still making the shots without all the cool stuff. These guys won’t necessarily be using cell phone apps or Laser range finders...

I'm not going to say those guys couldn't shoot. Lots of them could, and still can, and have parlors and dens full of taxidermy to prove it. My argument would be that the greatest majority of them didn't care about the shooting, they cared about the hunting, and maybe taking their kids and grandkids out plinking and hunting with them, and so had no particular interest in why anything they did worked, or didn't work. And so you end up with generational "wisdom" that isn't wrong necessarily, but it doesn't paint the whole picture, and a young generation of shooters who then take that wisdom as gospel in the face of a whole encyclopedia worth of new, better information.

The dangerous part about fuddlore is it's very rarely flat wrong. There was a kernel of truth to most of it at one time. The difficulty is distilling that kernel, and integrating it into a holistic understanding of what happens between picking up a rifle and chambering a round, and that bullet hitting (or not hitting) something, and being able to share that holistic understanding in a way that doesn't propagate any of those same misunderstandings.

 

[OREGUN]

When you miss, and miss a lot it really makes you think about how to improve.

I got serious about training when I realized I had shot a dozen one day matches and was consistently missing more than half the shots I was taking.

#embarrassing

 

[ArTeeKay]

I know there are a lot of ways to argue the cost of reloading. I always come back to the fact that it’s a gear and excuse trap just like shooting can be. There’s always a better press, a fancier chronograph, a new bullet, a better way to tumble, more perfect brass that now requires a different reamer shape, more testing and monkeying around burning out barrels looking for the perfect node. “My load needs some work”, ”my seating depth isn’t right”, “do you bump your shoulder .002” or .004” cause I do .002” and it’s not shooting well”, “I tested seating depths at every .001” for 20, three shot groups and couldn’t find one that seemed better”….and on and on and on. I have thousands of dollars of reloading equipment, have an entire room dedicated to reloading in my house, am constantly monitoring multiple websites for components, have been through all the fads regarding “finding the best load”…and get this: Never once did I ever say, “I want to commit my time, money, space, and mental energy to the hobby of reloading”.

When I started shooting, someone said, “you can save money and will have better ammo if you reload.” And MAYBE ammo quality was less then than it is now (again, a Fuddism that may not be accurate any longer).

Yeah, if I had spent the same money on ammo as I have spent on reloading, I’d have fewer factory rounds than I have made/could make with my existing components. But I’d also have an extra room in my house, I’d be a better shooter having shot more and reloaded less, and I would have saved countless hours of time doing my non-hobby.

So at this point, I’d never tell a new shooter to get involved in reloading unless they were really into benchrest or f-class or if they said, “I want an expensive hobby that involves sitting around a lot and fiddling with measuring little pieces of metal.

Just buy more ammo.

But this is completely off topic.

I'd say that's pretty on topic to me. Same concept really, except it's one step removed from the trigger pulling. How often do we get threads of guys asking us to analyze shot groups, or processes, or pieces of equipment? And how many times do we come to the conclusion that the rifle, and the process, and the reloading equipment are all fine, and that the nut behind the bolt is the root cause of the poor shooting?

Reloading can gain you things over factory ammo, certainly. But pretending that in order to shoot accurately, you must reload, and that if you reload and can't shoot accurately, it must be your load development is very much a cart before the horse scenario. Again, hits the topic right on the nose, as we lie to ourselves that most of what we think makes a difference, as shooters and handloaders, actually meaningfully makes a difference in our ability to hit targets.

But as the prophet A.J. always said, BUY MORE AMMO.

 

[ArTeeKay]

This past weekend I realized how much I suck at shooting in varying, medium wind. I have no Kerstel or anything to read how fast it was, but at 800+ yards hits were hard. I’d measure where I missed with my reticle, get it a hit, then when I tried to repeat the wind changed and I’d miss on the opposite side.

You could feel the wind, when it shifted, when it stopped, but I had no clue on how to interpret it beyond shooting, gauging how far off I missed then correcting for a hit.


I did get a first round impact on a full size silhouette at 1057yds..but that is a big target. I also had success at 1100yds going 3/5, after figuring out the wind.

Overall it was fun, and a big eye opener: I still don’t know what I’m doing yet. I’ve been lucky that the other times I’ve shot at 500+ there’s been very little wind. For me, it was fun and gave me a few things to work on. When you miss, and miss a lot it really makes you think about how to improve.

The only gear related thing I’d change is my Magpul bipod, I can’t tighten it enough for it to not tilt.

Getting good hits on target in the wind at distance is a valuable skill to have. And getting some practice doing it without high tech fancy tools would do most folks a world of good. I think we sort of take a whole lot of that equipment for granted, and lose some of our sense of what appropriate target engagement distances are. Sure, I can hit targets with my wind cheater 6mm, but at 1200 or 1400 yards, what is that bullet really gonna be capable of when it gets there, and am I confident enough in myself to say that I can make that hit in one or two shots, when the chips are down and I'm not just playing games with the rifle?

Good on you for being honest with yourself about what your skill level is, and the great hope is that we can all use that honest self assessment to keep becoming better.

 

[Zane1844]

I got serious about training when I realized I had shot a dozen one day matches and was consistently missing more than half the shots I was taking.

#embarrassing

That’s exactly how I felt this weekend, it wasn’t a match, just shooting prone for fun, but I still hold high standards for myself.

Last August, which was the last time I shot at 1000+, there was like maybe a 3mph wind. So, with good ammo, good zero, a chrono and Strelok, I couldn’t miss. Then I had a reality check the other day.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Currently as a species we have a few traits that don’t allow for optimal behavior:

- We want everything to “mean” something.

- We would rather have a reason that’s illogical than no reason.

- We are terrible at calculating risk.

A few common examples:

“Everything happens for a reason.” Well, most of the time that reason isn’t meaningful and it’s random.

Conspiracy theories. We’ll assign some of the weirdest mental gymnastics to something instead of the simple answer or just admitting we don’t know.

Many people refuse to fly because it’s “dangerous.” Yet they drive a vehicle everyday and some will do things like text or eat while driving. Completely ignoring the fact that driving us exponentially more dangerous than flying just by itself.


So, it’s pretty easy to see how we can really mess up loading and shooting. We do it in everything.

 

[Dot3]

I'm not going to say those guys couldn't shoot. Lots of them could, and still can, and have parlors and dens full of taxidermy to prove it. My argument would be that the greatest majority of them didn't care about the shooting, they cared about the hunting, and maybe taking their kids and grandkids out plinking and hunting with them, and so had no particular interest in why anything they did worked, or didn't work. And so you end up with generational "wisdom" that isn't wrong necessarily, but it doesn't paint the whole picture, and a young generation of shooters who then take that wisdom as gospel in the face of a whole encyclopedia worth of new, better information.

The dangerous part about fuddlore is it's very rarely flat wrong. There was a kernel of truth to most of it at one time. The difficulty is distilling that kernel, and integrating it into a holistic understanding of what happens between picking up a rifle and chambering a round, and that bullet hitting (or not hitting) something, and being able to share that holistic understanding in a way that doesn't propagate any of those same misunderstandings.

9 out of 10 recovering Fudds approve this message.

 

[308pirate]

This thread is timely

I spent a couple hours on saturday at my local club using their USPSA-ish Saturday afternoon shoot to burn some live fire practice on a setup someone else made. Also to make sure my CO pistol (G17) was gonna work with a lighter recoil and striker spring before the match on Sunday.

Before running the stage for the first time I step up to the line on the next range over to just test fire the pistol on some random steel. Predictably there's people there having fun and I ask if I can rip off a few just to be polite and make sure I didn't blow out someone's eardrum. So I draw to a 25 yard 8" plate and smack it twice with an easy split (maybe .5 sec it felt like, nothing crazy fast), then immediately transition to a 10 yd plate and tap it twice. The old man in the group looks at me with a crazy look and says wow that's pretty good. Quite honestly, what I did was nothing special. It's what anyone with a handgun should be able to do if they're serious about using one as a weapon.

Moral of the story the skill at arms of the average gun owner is abysmally low. But the average American man is convinced he's the world's greatest at driving, shooting, and fucking. So when the performance is subpar the excuses come out.

 

[ArTeeKay]

Currently as a species we have a few traits that don’t allow for optimal behavior:

- We want everything to “mean” something.

- We would rather have a reason that’s illogical than no reason.

- We are terrible at calculating risk.

A few common examples:

“Everything happens for a reason.” Well, most of the time that reason isn’t meaningful and it’s random.

Conspiracy theories. We’ll assign some of the weirdest mental gymnastics to something instead of the simple answer or just admitting we don’t know.

Many people refuse to fly because it’s “dangerous.” Yet they drive a vehicle everyday and some will do things like text or eat while driving. Completely ignoring the fact that driving us exponentially more dangerous than flying just by itself.


So, it’s pretty easy to see how we can really mess up loading and shooting. We do it in everything.

There's got to be a bypass though, as people manage to make good decisions based on real data on a regular, if not consistent basis. And I think you, as well as anyone, are capable of seeing through the noise to what matters and what doesn't. I'm not trying to solve all the world's problems here, but what I would like to do is find the key to helping guys past the noise and the bullshit to real solutions to shooting problems.

I'll admit, my motivation is a bit selfish. If we can get folks to think about problem solving in a reasonable manner when it's low risk, like putting bullets on target at distance, maybe some of that carries over to other problem solving concepts. There are a whole lot of big fucking problems, and maybe a little judicious decision making practice would be good for everyone.

 

[ArTeeKay]

9 out of 10 recovering Fudds approve this message.

How bout the other one?

 

[ArTeeKay]

This thread is timely

I spent a couple hours on saturday at my local club using their USPSA-ish Saturday afternoon shoot to burn some live fire practice on a setup someone else made. Also to make sure my CO pistol (G17) was gonna work with a lighter recoil and striker spring before the match on Sunday.

Before running the stage for the first time I step up to the line on the next range over to just test fire the pistol on some random steel. Predictably there's people there having fun and I ask if I can rip off a few just to be polite and make sure I didn't blow out someone's eardrum. So I draw to a 25 yard 8" plate and smack it twice with an easy split (maybe .5 sec it felt like, nothing crazy fast), then immediately transition to a 10 yd plate and tap it twice. The old man in the group looks at me with a crazy look and says wow that's pretty good. Quite honestly, what I did was nothing special. It's what anyone with a handgun should be able to do if they're serious about using one as a weapon.

Moral of the story the skill at arms of the average gun owner is abysmally low. But the average American man is convinced he's the world's greatest at driving, shooting, and fucking. So when the performance is subpar the excuses come out.

That's just it. How do we bridge the disconnect between the reality of our skills, and our perception of them? How do I encourage meaningful practice in those who need it most? How do I help the guy next to me on the firing line improve his skills and competence to the point that if I find myself doing a pair fire drill through auto glass with him, I can just focus on me, instead of worrying about whether he's gonna double tap me in the back of the head?

Part of me worries that the answer is just surround myself with folks who are motivated to do the thing, and are already doing it, and there's not a whole hell of a lot to be done about the chuckleheads who can't be bothered to put in the work. That answer is frightening, because it means when push comes to shove, it leaves me with serious doubts about the skills of the random guy shooting beside me, whether it's glassing for deer, or putting a stalk on something that might just want to hurt me back.

 

[Baron23]

It's human nature and it's the same shit in every shooting sport I've ever been in. If you think it's bad with rifles, try pistol shooters........morons arguing endlessly about every ammo/gear/pistol minutia but can't shoot worth a shit even under zero pressure.

It is indeed human nature but it’s the same shit in almost every sport.

Gear is just part of the interest for a lot of folks. The few BR guys I’ve spoken with take it to a whole mother level. Haha

Cheers

 

[Dot3]

How bout the other one?

 

[308pirate]

How do I encourage meaningful practice in those who need it most?

You have to find out first if they want to be good/better. Several ways to do that. Also, I think you already know the tell-tale signs of those who will never listen because they are legends in their own mind.

Part of me worries that the answer is just surround myself with folks who are motivated to do the thing, and are already doing it, and there's not a whole hell of a lot to be done about the chuckleheads who can't be bothered to put in the work.

Most of the shooters you will meet are the chuckleheads.

 

[308pirate]

Gear is just part of the interest for a lot of folks. The few BR guys I’ve spoken with take it to a whole mother level. Haha

But at least the point of BR is minimizing human input so they have sort of an excuse.

The really pathetic ones are on Brian Enos' forum on multi-page threads about the absolute best load for pistol xyz. The amount of time and money those idiots spend chasing the absolute smallest group for a sport in which the maximum scoring area is something like 6" wide and 11" tall is mind boggling.

Those are the people I don't worry about because I know they're not spending time on the skills that actually matter.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I pretty much get everything the OP is saying. Seen most of it firsthand.
What I don't get is why he cares so much about the skill level of a bunch of strangers he may never meet or run into at a match again.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

There's got to be a bypass though, as people manage to make good decisions based on real data on a regular, if not consistent basis. And I think you, as well as anyone, are capable of seeing through the noise to what matters and what doesn't. I'm not trying to solve all the world's problems here, but what I would like to do is find the key to helping guys past the noise and the bullshit to real solutions to shooting problems.

I'll admit, my motivation is a bit selfish. If we can get folks to think about problem solving in a reasonable manner when it's low risk, like putting bullets on target at distance, maybe some of that carries over to other problem solving concepts. There are a whole lot of big fucking problems, and maybe a little judicious decision making practice would be good for everyone.

Most people make decent decisions *in spite* of the situation though.

All of us. If we look back, have been the benefactor of being on the fortunate of the dice. With anything in life. Also, most decisions we make aren’t of great consequence.

The only real way you’ll make a difference is to start teaching risk assessment in middle/high school. And then it will take a couple generations to work out the dogma.

Until then, you’ll always see a ton of people tuning rifles with two shot groups and people refusing to fly.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

I pretty much get everything the OP is saying. Seen most of it firsthand.
What I don't get is why he cares so much about the skill level of a bunch of strangers he may never meet or run into at a match again.

The same reason you hit the reply button instead of scrolling past.

We have it good enough that we have time to post things on a place that’s imaginary about things that don’t matter.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

The same reason you hit the reply button instead of scrolling past.

Boredom? Insomnia? Wives are on the rag so neither of us is getting any? Seem like weird reasons to write small novels on SH, but each to his own I guess...

 

[ArTeeKay]

I pretty much get everything the OP is saying. Seen most of it firsthand.
What I don't get is why he cares so much about the skill level of a bunch of strangers he may never meet or run into at a match again.

I care less about their skill level with a gun, and more about the things more about the things that drive them to be that way. At this point, it's a bit of a litmus test. If you're an idiot with a gun, I can pretty well say you're just an idiot. But if you can use a gun to 80% of it's mechanical capability, and explain why what you're doing works, it's a pretty good indicator to me that you've got the tools to be something other than an idiot.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I care less about their skill level with a gun, and more about the things more about the things that drive them to be that way. At this point, it's a bit of a litmus test. If you're an idiot with a gun, I can pretty well say you're just an idiot. But if you can use a gun to 80% of it's mechanical capability, and explain why what you're doing works, it's a pretty good indicator to me that you've got the tools to be something other than an idiot.

Eh, okay I guess. I just pretty much assume most people I'll ever meet are just coasting through life and have no drive to excel at anything. Maybe some desire, but usually not drive. A lot of them are in fact idiots, some of them are pretty intelligent but still just coasting. I stopped wondering about the 'why' of this a long time ago.
Plus, buying gear is fun, and that's enough for a lot of folks.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Boredom? Insomnia? Wives are on the rag so neither of us is getting any? Seem like weird reasons to write small novels on SH, but each to his own I guess...

Just pointing out the irony of someone caring why someone doesn’t care.

 

[HMRamateur]

Good thread. I've been taught by my dad how to shoot and reload and he fits into the columns of too many guns without being too proficient in any, reloads just to sit at 100 and wonder why his rifle doesn't shoot as well as it did the week before (0.5 moa vs 0.75 moa), so he changes something small hoping it will get better, ad infinitum.

Luckily reading in on threads on this website, with advice from some of the people in this thread also, has taught me just to shoot and not get lost in the noise. I don't worry why my rifle shoots 0.5 moa one day and closer to 1 moa the next because it's probably more my fault than my loads. I was ready to upgrade my rifle in the last few months, when the one I use is more than capable, but decided to spend the money on training instead. I'd also rather not spend all my time at the reloading bench chasing perfect, so until my shooting skills catch up with my equipment, everything is good enough. I've still got good equipment, but the point of diminishing returns is much larger for someone of average skill.

 

[308pirate]

I've been taught by my dad how to shoot and reload

In a way I'm glad my never did teach me about shooting. He wasn't into it so it wasn't likely to happen anyway but nevertheless I came into the sport as an adult with no preconceived notions of fudd lore to get in the way.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Just pointing out the irony of someone caring why someone doesn’t care.

It was intended to be a drive-by-shitpost, but now that I'm four posts deep into this thread it's getting harder to defend my ain't care position.

 

[sinister]

There have been a select few military shooters who started from scratch and went on to become excellent instructors and even Olympic Gold Medalists.

Whatever their background as youngsters, none were the sons of independently wealthy parents who could provide any gun, scope, and optic or iron sight combination the aspiring marksman might have wanted at the moment.

Each had an internal drive to excel. Many had to excel using the basic service rifle, .22, bolt gun, or other firearm because that's what their particular rule book stated. A lot of them never bothered to learn hand-loading because they fired ammo their Uncle provided -- like the compulsory routines in gymnastics, many went up the ranks using a .22, service rifle, or magnum at Camp Perry on their way to Bronze, Silver, and Gold at multiple Olympic Games.

Most who dabble and concentrate on supporting or enhancing minutiae will never excel. Those who keep their eye on the prize and develop, exploit, and discard are those who will win.

Most Americans don't have the drive to excel. Period. It's great to participate - but that drive to dominate just isn't there.

... but there are also those whose every spare minute is involved thinking of the next best gadget or technique that will contribute to victory -- and many laymen will be confused about that when looking from outside.

The difference might be a simple trinket. I wear a miniature Army dress uniform Distinguished Rifleman's Badge and a President's Hundred tab on my baseball hat. It makes a difference to me.

Somewhere, someone cares about what rifle, scope, and ammo the last five annual PRS champions have used, and wants to duplicate that. As for that, I simply don't care.

What I am interested in, is what training or gadgetry made the difference to get each of those shooters to the champion's spot?

 

[37L1]

Good thread. Some of my random thoughts on the matter.

Ego is a fragile but also stubborn thing.

Admitting you are the problem is the first step to improvement.

Having the latest and the greatest is not only an ego thing but keeps the interest factor stoked when the results don't necessarily = cost + time.

There is room for every type in shooting sports. Most just want to improve and learn how to . . . or don't.

Bottom line, the target don't lie, it's in the interpretation of the target where some go astray.

 

[Skeptic1]

Admittedly, I haven't read each response to the original post here but....... I too believe the OP brings up a valid point with this.
For me, I began first realizing that the community/sport was going down this road around the time that the 6.5 creedmoor came out. A couple years after that there were more new acronyms behind more new calibers making up more cartridges then I could even pretend to keep up with.
Personally I made the decision to stick with a couple 7.62 cartridges and the .223 and I forced myself to become proficient with those.
My optics are a 15+ years old now and I do just fine with them.
I quit buying and lusting to buy every new thing that came out and you know what...... I'm still pretty damn competitive in my local circle of friends and shooters.

I do reload and reloading is a whole other topic of concern for me along the same idea as the original post. You can, and many do, add so many unnecessary steps to their reloading process that it quickly becomes ridiculous. The point of diminishing returns comes soon when reloading.

 

[308pirate]

Another point of incessant stupidity: arguing about reticle minutia.

Does anyone really fucking think that windage marks every .25 mils makes any difference over marks every .2 mils?

GMAFB

 

[KnowNothing256]

Another point of incessant stupidity: arguing about reticle minutia.

Does anyone really fucking think that windage marks every .25 mils makes any difference over marks every .2 mils?

GMAFB

In some ways this is fair, but in others it’s a bit unfair. First off, does it make a big difference? No, of course not.

On the other hand, most people don’t get to truly test-drive (shoot 100+ rounds with) a scope they’re considering buying. So to maximize their odds of getting their big purchase right, they nitpick the minutiae. I know I would do this if I were dropping a large part of my budget on glass; the good news for me is that I’m so used to the EBR-7C reticle that I only like similar options, which narrows the field rapidly. The MPCT3X is what has my eye now, I like the clear upper field…

 

[Dot3]

[QUOTE="Skeptic1,

I do reload and reloading is a whole other topic of concern for me along the same idea as the original post. You can, and many do, add so many unnecessary steps to their reloading process that it quickly becomes ridiculous. The point of diminishing returns comes soon when reloading.
[/QUOTE]

I can’t even get my old man to throw and go with the blaster 223 ammo he makes. Minute of Asshole is what you’re after with blaster shit right? But he treats it like it’s the next BR record setter. I love him though and in his defense, he enjoys that part of the process.

 

[308pirate]

I can’t even get my old man to throw and go with the blaster 223 ammo he makes. Minute of Asshole is what you’re after with blaster shit right? But he treats it like it’s the next BR record setter. I love him though and in his defense, he enjoys that part of the process.

I reload out of necessity

I'm saving money on both match rifle and pistol ammo. I also have to reload to get what I want in terms of ballistics for both. While my USPSA 9 mm ammo may not be any more accurate than the stuff I can buy, it sure is easier to shoot when I can dial the power factor from the typical 140 - 145 to a more reasonable and still in regulation 130 - 132.