Lyman Alaskan?

[pitspitr]

The other day I won an auction for Lyman Alaskan. It looked pretty rough in the pictures so I got it cheap.

When it got here the blueing was pretty freckled with rust. I started carefully cleaning it and found that instead of the serial number being 84592, it is B4592.

I remembered reading that the B Series Alaskans were military, but I don't find any markings to indicate that it is.

My question is; What is the REAL story on the B Series Alaskans?

 

[camocorvette]

Lyman Alaskan b series - Google Search

 

[roostercogburn98]

Supposed to all be .mil scopes, M73 I believe. Post some pics when you can

 

[lonegunman762x51]

Some B-series scopes are indeed used by the military on M1C's and 03A4's. I just bought a couple of Lyman Alaskans for my M1C and 03-A4 and called it good. They used either the cross hair version or the post version, so I have one of each. I have a spare that is from the 1940's and was serviced by Lyman in the late-1980's and still in the box with the receipt. They are actually decent scopes for the day.

Maybe I have it wrong but the Weaver was the M73, the Lyman was the M81 or M82 depending on the reticle.

These guys can get it in shape for you.

Vintage Gun Scopes

Vintage Weaver, Redfield and other Vintage Rifle Scopes, Guns, scope rings and mounts for sale.

www.vintagegunscopes.com

 

[pitspitr]

GFGI was my first step. There seen to be about an equal amount of opinions as to whether all the "B" series were military. Some say they All were. Some say just some were. I got it cheap enough that I'm good either way. But I'd like to know for sure.

Since there were military sales, isn't there a list of serial numbers somewhere?

It has a rubber eye shield on it that looks like it has seen LOTS of use

I'll try to get pictures tonight

 

[pitspitr]

 

[roostercogburn98]

@CMH
@sirhrmechanic
@cplnorton

I’m sure there are a few more that I can’t think of that would know some on this

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I know a bit about the post war Kollmorgen’s, but these are a real specialty!! Alaskans are a whole collector genre of their own!

Sort of like Marbles Gamegetter stuff.

Sirhr

@pmclaine @buffalowinter may be good resources, too.

 

[pitspitr]

All of the above in both lists are among my favorite members of this site. When they say something they know what they're talking about and it's no BS. AND they write in a way even I can understand. I hope they'll weigh in on the subject

 

[ODCMP]

The B prefix Lyman Alaskan's are believed to have been procured under a military contract. They are discussed some in this thread, see post #8:

The M73 Lyman Alaskan Scope from WWII, which became the M81 for the M1C Garand Sniper

I actually encountered something that I had never seen before, so I thought if I hadn't seen one others might find this interesting as well. This is the backstory: In early 1943, the Lyman Alaskan scope was actually the front runner to be used on the M1903A4. Ordnance wanted to name the...

www.snipershide.com

There is no question that at least part of them were procured under a military contract. Several have turned up with receipts through the CMP. I have one that has an Army Depot receipt.

The less resolved question is whether ALL of the B prefix scopes were part of the government contract, since there are higher serial numbers than the 3,000 shown in the letter. There could have been a second follow-on order that hasn't been found yet.

Observed serial numbers indicate about 5,000 B-prefix scopes.

 

[pitspitr]

So what I'm understanding is that a "B" series with a serial number in such close proximity to a known sniper scope (4373) is pretty likely to be a military scope in spite of not having any military markings?

 

[Random Guy]

My opinion is that it's a commercial scope, probably made after 1951. (The military M82 scopes seem to have the sunshade as a standard item).
Why? It has the "ALL WEATHER" marking, which is associated with a commercial Lyman scope

If one see's a "B" prefix Alaskan with "7634671" on the adjustment housing - it's definitely a military scope. (The other give away are 5-digit part numbers on the turret covers, as seen here, but I think that might be more of a 1944-45 production characteristic - but not 100% sure):

As noted in the 2004 GCA article "Alaskan scopes without military stamping and marked "ALL-WEATHER" on the adjustment housings are almost always commercial scope."

One caveat, I have seen one low number B-prefix Alaskan that lacked any markings on the adjustment body, and my guess is that one might have been a military scope given it had the sunshade, but its wasn't clear to it's origins. Perhaps they forgot to stamp it or perhaps it was an early scope from 1951 diverted to the military order (for 3k scopes). At least that is what the collector thought about his Alaskan scope that lacked any marking on the adjustment housing, but it had the correct sunshade and rubber eye piece. I can't recall what serial range it was, but I think it was an early B-prefix. Again, the markings (or lack there of) on that order from 1951 are a bit of a enigma, but in general. "ALL-WEATHER" = commercial scope.

(Note: The US Army doesn't like vendors to include "marketing" stuff on their items, like "ALL-WEATHER", hence Lyman removed that from military scopes. Also, the boxes the military scopes were shipped in also lacked all the fancy graphics/marketing of the commercial Lyman scopes - they were just plain brown boxes. I wish I would have taken a picture of that collector's original Lyman military shipping box, but he moved away from this area years ago.)

 

[ODCMP]

So what I'm understanding is that a "B" series with a serial number in such close proximity to a known sniper scope (4373) is pretty likely to be a military scope in spite of not having any military markings?

No. It's not proximity, but because numerous examples of B prefix Lyman Alaskan's have been observed with solid documentation of military ownership. They had to come into military ownership and the time period and number of scopes observed (based on serial number ranges) corresponds to the procurement mentioned in the 23 May 51 letter from the archives that cplnorton posted in the other thread I linked above.

Dave

 

[ODCMP]

My opinion is that it's a commercial scope, probably made after 1951. (The military M82 scopes seem to have the sunshade as a standard item).
Why? It has the "ALL WEATHER" marking, which is associated with a commercial Lyman scope

If one see's a "B" prefix Alaskan with "7634671" on the adjustment housing - it's definitely a military scope. (The other give away are 5-digit part numbers on the turret covers, as seen here, but I think that might be more of a 1944-45 production characteristic - but not 100% sure):
View attachment 8003947

As noted in the 2004 GCA article "Alaskan scopes without military stamping and marked "ALL-WEATHER" on the adjustment housings are almost always commercial scope."

One caveat, I have seen one low number B-prefix Alaskan that lacked any markings on the adjustment body, and my guess is that one might have been a military scope given it had the sunshade, but its wasn't clear to it's origins. Perhaps they forgot to stamp it or perhaps it was an early scope from 1951 diverted to the military order (for 3k scopes). At least that is what the collector thought about his Alaskan scope that lacked any marking on the adjustment housing, but it had the correct sunshade and rubber eye piece. I can't recall what serial range it was, but I think it was an early B-prefix. Again, the markings (or lack there of) on that order from 1951 are a bit of a enigma, but in general. "ALL-WEATHER" = commercial scope.

(Note: The US Army doesn't like vendors to include "marketing" stuff on their items, like "ALL-WEATHER", hence Lyman removed that from military scopes. Also, the boxes the military scopes were shipped in also lacked all the fancy graphics/marketing of the commercial Lyman scopes - they were just plain brown boxes. I wish I would have taken a picture of that collector's original Lyman military shipping box, but he moved away from this area years ago.)

The B prefix Lyman Alaskan's were exactly the same as the commercial scopes Lyman was producing at that time. They have cross hair reticles and typically do not have the military features like the sun shade, numbered parts, or M81/M82 nomenclature. The only difference from the commercial production at the time is the B prefix serial number range.

It is believed that the military accepted the B prefix Lyman Alaskan scopes without requiring the military features and nomenclature in order to expedite the procurement of additional scopes for the Korean War.

I have seen a few B prefix scopes with some military numbered parts. I believe those examples are due to exchange of parts while in use. Those are the exception rather than the typical.

As I noted in the reply to pitspitr, above, numerous examples of B prefix Lyman Alaskan's have been observed with solid documentation of military ownership. Those examples are found throughout the B prefix serial number range, so there are reasons to believe that all B prefix Lyman Alaskans were procured as part of the military contract referenced in the 23 May 51 letter from the archives that cplnorton posted in the other thread I linked above.

Dave

 

[Random Guy]

As I noted in the reply to pitspitr, above, numerous examples of B prefix Lyman Alaskan's have been observed with solid documentation of military ownership

I agree, the local collector who shared info with me actually had a box of old military scopes that had been de-milled (I think at RIA) via crushing the scopes tubes in-half with a pipe-cutter or some other tool. In that box were a couple of front-ends to M84s (he gave me the data plate off one of them, as I needed it for a real M84 I bought that lacked its plate....and I need one more for another M84), and the box also had the back-end of a clearly marked Lyman B-prefix scope. So clearly the military procured some in 1951, and de-milled that scope at some point in the past. That de-milled scope tube unfortunately didn't include the adjustment housing...

What was interesting to him was his low number B-prefix Lyman scope with no markings at all on the adjustment housing. The WWII versions had the part # "7634671," and all the post WWII versions had the "ALL-WEATHER" logo on the housing. However, what did the 3k scopes ordered in 1951 have on the housing? Did they have "ALL WEATHER" on them, and were taken from commercial stocks? At least one I saw was blank in that area, hence the nagging question that Lyman might have removed that script from some B-prefixes in 1951, given the US Army typically asks vendors to omit anything "marketing" like on their products...I hope that made sense. Perhaps it was just an odd-ball, but an fyi I noted from an advanced collector with those old scopes.

 

[ODCMP]

I agree, the local collector who shared info with me actually had a box of old military scopes that had been de-milled (I think at RIA) via crushing the scopes tubes in-half with a pipe-cutter or some other tool. In that box were a couple of front-ends to M84s (he gave me the data plate off one of them, as I needed it for a real M84 I bought that lacked its plate....and I need one more for another M84), and the box also had the back-end of a clearly marked Lyman B-prefix scope. So clearly the military procured some in 1951, and de-milled that scope at some point in the past. That de-milled scope tube unfortunately didn't include the adjustment housing...

What was interesting to him was his low number B-prefix Lyman scope with no markings at all on the adjustment housing. The WWII versions had the part # "7634671," and all the post WWII versions had the "ALL-WEATHER" logo on the housing. However, what did the 3k scopes ordered in 1951 have on the housing? Did they have "ALL WEATHER" on them, and were taken from commercial stocks? At least one I saw was blank in that area, hence the nagging question that Lyman might have removed that script from some B-prefixes in 1951, given the US Army typically asks vendors to omit anything "marketing" like on their products...I hope that made sense. Perhaps it was just an odd-ball, but an fyi I noted from an advanced collector with those old scopes.

The typical B prefix Lyman Alaskan's had the ALL-WEATHER marking on the adjustment housing just like the commercial Lyman Alaskan scopes of that the period. I just looked through my pictures of B prefix scopes in the early serial range and they all have ALL-WEATHER. Do you recall the serial number of his scope?

I agree that the military normally requires contractors to remove their proprietary markings, but there are some notable exceptions (such as the Winchester logo and trademark on M1 rifles and carbines). In this case, I assume it would have simply been the difference in time required to deliver the standard scopes vs. converting back over to the military M82 production.

Dave

 

[pmclaine]

I know a bit about the post war Kollmorgen’s, but these are a real specialty!! Alaskans are a whole collector genre of their own!

Sort of like Marbles Gamegetter stuff.

Sirhr

@pmclaine @buffalowinter may be good resources, too.

I know little about the Alaskans other than the design between mil and civilian often blurred especially early in the war when time was of the essence.

Lots of aerial gunnery training shotguns and riot shotguns had engraved hunting scenes on the receivers having been drafted from commercial stocks.

I have a sweet Kollmorgen 4X that you may know some stuff about @sirhrmechanic.

It’s a beautifully clear scope with capped turrets but the adjusters look multi pieced and unlike the design the carried over into the Redfield line.

I’m thinking it’s if the era the MC1 scopes came from.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I know little about the Alaskans other than the design between mil and civilian often blurred especially early in the war when time was of the essence.

Lots of aerial gunnery training shotguns and riot shotguns had engraved hunting scenes on the receivers having been drafted from commercial stocks.

I have a sweet Kollmorgen 4X that you may know some stuff about @sirhrmechanic.

It’s a beautifully clear scope with capped turrets but the adjusters look multi pieced and unlike the design the carried over into the Redfield line.

I’m thinking it’s if the era the MC1 scopes came from.

So the Kollmorgen scopes were from Northhampton, Ma. It's where all the U.S. Submarine periscopes since WW1 have been made. Very cool company... moved to Northhampton during WW1 from, I think, NYC because of the threat of German attacks near the coast.

Kollmorgen was flat out during WW2 and had a massive output as U.S. put to sea hundreds of S-Class, I think they were called, subs. The Fish boats. They were all named after fish... before they needed Senate and House support and started naming them after states and cities... anyhoo... Kollmorgen made hundreds of periscopes and was massively tooled up when along came Hiroshima and... Boom... No more need for submarines.

Nothing. Nada. No orders. No sales. No boats being built... nothing. The company went from boom to... not a single order for anything.

Knowing that the Navy would eventually have to do 'something' to replace the aging boats... and with Rickover's 'nuclear' Navy coming together (Took 9 years to launch.... something like 7 years to get a periscope ordered!)... Kollmorgen was willing to do anything to keep their workforce together. For almost a decade.

So the best optics guys in North America (except maybe Frank Cooke's works) spent 7 years making... rifle scopes (for the returning GI's who wanted scoped rifles.) Spotting scopes. Even cut glass ashtrays.... yes, using optical-grade periscope glass... to make ashtrays. To keep their people busy and their works operating.

As soon as Rickover's navy got off the ground, Kollmorgen dumped all the ashtray and scope projects... I think they sold their scope line to Lyman?? Bearcubs? And stopped the ashtrays alltogether. But the result is that for about 5 - 7 years, some of the best scopes on the planet were being turned out in Northhampton... on the optical equipment created to make high-res submarine periscopes. And were being made at 'sportsmen' prices.

These scopes have some of the clearest lenses, best machining, best reticles (the dots are fantastic)... of the era. They are head and shoulders above almost anything else out there. And noone has ever heard of them. I still use one on my Sako Finnbear .270 and it is reliable as gravity. Dead nuts. Took the longest deer shot ever with it. 270 yards and right through the heart. Dot reticle.

Anyway... next time you are on 91 going through Northhampton... as you head North, look left and you will see a really tall square building/tower... about 20 feet on each side. With four rectangular holes near the top of it. That is Kollmorgen's Periscope Testing building. Every periscope gets assembled and tested in there before it gets sent off to Electric Boat or... whoever.

And that's who made your scope. Heck, maybe your ashtray, too! And why Kollmorgen Scopes are awesome. Even if un-heard-of!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[pmclaine]

So the Kollmorgen scopes were from Northhampton, Ma. It's where all the U.S. Submarine periscopes since WW1 have been made. Very cool company... moved to Northhampton during WW1 from, I think, NYC because of the threat of German attacks near the coast.

Kollmorgen was flat out during WW2 and had a massive output as U.S. put to sea hundreds of S-Class, I think they were called, subs. The Fish boats. They were all named after fish... before they needed Senate and House support and started naming them after states and cities... anyhoo... Kollmorgen made hundreds of periscopes and was massively tooled up when along came Hiroshima and... Boom... No more need for submarines.

Nothing. Nada. No orders. No sales. No boats being built... nothing. The company went from boom to... not a single order for anything.

Knowing that the Navy would eventually have to do 'something' to replace the aging boats... and with Rickover's 'nuclear' Navy coming together (Took 9 years to launch.... something like 7 years to get a periscope ordered!)... Kollmorgen was willing to do anything to keep their workforce together. For almost a decade.

So the best optics guys in North America (except maybe Frank Cooke's works) spent 7 years making... rifle scopes (for the returning GI's who wanted scoped rifles.) Spotting scopes. Even cut glass ashtrays.... yes, using optical-grade periscope glass... to make ashtrays. To keep their people busy and their works operating.

As soon as Rickover's navy got off the ground, Kollmorgen dumped all the ashtray and scope projects... I think they sold their scope line to Lyman?? Bearcubs? And stopped the ashtrays alltogether. But the result is that for about 5 - 7 years, some of the best scopes on the planet were being turned out in Northhampton... on the optical equipment created to make high-res submarine periscopes. And were being made at 'sportsmen' prices.

These scopes have some of the clearest lenses, best machining, best reticles (the dots are fantastic)... of the era. They are head and shoulders above almost anything else out there. And noone has ever heard of them. I still use one on my Sako Finnbear .270 and it is reliable as gravity. Dead nuts. Took the longest deer shot ever with it. 270 yards and right through the heart. Dot reticle.

Anyway... next time you are on 91 going through Northhampton... as you head North, look left and you will see a really tall square building/tower... about 20 feet on each side. With four rectangular holes near the top of it. That is Kollmorgen's Periscope Testing building. Every periscope gets assembled and tested in there before it gets sent off to Electric Boat or... whoever.

And that's who made your scope. Heck, maybe your ashtray, too! And why Kollmorgen Scopes are awesome. Even if un-heard-of!

Cheers,

Sirhr

Going to open a Kollmorgen thread to not shit this one up.

 

[pitspitr]

ODCMP and Random Guy
Thank you so much for your input. I believe that reading your back and forth cleared up my understanding of the military purchases of the Lyman Alaskan "B" Series.

What I hear you saying is that while it is quite possible that mine was a part of a military purchase there isn't any way to prove it conclusively. Therefore, IF or when I decide to sell it, I should just sell it as a Lyman Alaskan "B" Series and let the buyer decide what that means. In the meantime, I "bought the scope, not the story" and I should enjoy it for what it is, a good old scope that I bought cheap.

A couple of more questions:

1. Is the 2004 GCA article online somewhere? When I looked for it, I couldn't find it.

2. Is there a Lyman Alaskan collecting club?

Sirmechanic and pmclaine:
I don't mind at all that the Kollmorgen info is included here. I don't consider it "shitting" this thread up. Alot of times I learn as much or more from such "bunny trails."

 

[ODCMP]

Correct. There is a very high probability that they were all part of the military purchase, but no conclusive link tying the B prefix Lyman Alaskan's directly to the order referenced in the documents. cplnorton has stated that he has found further documents that may provide further proof. See the link below:

The M73 Lyman Alaskan Scope from WWII, which became the M81 for the M1C Garand Sniper

I actually encountered something that I had never seen before, so I thought if I hadn't seen one others might find this interesting as well. This is the backstory: In early 1943, the Lyman Alaskan scope was actually the front runner to be used on the M1903A4. Ordnance wanted to name the...

www.snipershide.com

The Fall 2004 GCA Journal article on the M81 and M82 scopes isn't on-line as far as I know. There is another related article in the Summer 2013 issue of the GCA Journal that I wrote on the M82 scopes made by Wollensak. Hopefully the research by cplnorton will add another article to the list.

Dave