M1 garand RARE find

[kylemishaps]

Hello everyone. Im new to the forum, literally joined a couple of hours ago. So, i figured I would let you guys have a look at what I got in a trade the other day. This is a 1944 M1 garand in perfect condition. Such great condition, that it actually was in the Frazier History Museum in Louisville Ky for 30yrs. I came across this weapon at a gun show near me. At first I thought it was too good to be true, almost looked like one of the century remakes, but I got a closer look at it. The S/N 2,799,xxx which puts the year at 1944, but it wasnt all original because the stamp didnt match up to the year. The hand stamp was SA J.L.G. which really caught my attention, because those are extremely rare. (I believe James L. Guidon only stamped from 1950-1953 and between S/N 4,200,000 and 4,350,000) Plus the stock is in excellent condition. from the barrel code, I can tell it was rebarreled in 49, plus the front sight is an addition that dates at 50. Looks like to me, this rifle was refurbished with the best parts. What makes the weapon so interesting, was the fact that it was in a museum for such a long time, and only came out because the original of the weapon asked for it back. Truly a beautiful weapon, let me know what you think?

If you have any other place you'd like for me to take pictures of, let me know and I will.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

I think you got a mixmaster forgery is what you got. That stamp and that big back porch would have never been on the same stock at the same time. The bolt is a code 65 post war bolt. Read me the heat lot number below the drawing number and I can tell you when it was made. Locking shoulder is post war also.

As the saying goes, buy the rifle, not the story.

 

[McCrazy]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

Nice looking Garand. Obviously not an all-original WWII rifle but at least the OP is aware of that.

Welcome to the Hide, nice first post.

 

[Northland]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

I love Garands, seeing pictures of them never get old.

I can't recall if I've ever seen a garand for sale with a milled trigger guard instead of the stamped one.

 

[iShoot17]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

Wow! Absolutely stunning rifle! Congratulations on a great find!

I sent you a PM ;-)

 

[kylemishaps]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

Yeah I know it's not all original, it looks like someone definitely refurbished it. But I can say its no forgery. The cartouche stamps do match. Ive seen many stamps and know them quite well. This is an original stock.

Here's a great place for reference.

http://www.trfindley.com/pgsnstmpsm1.html

 

[kylemishaps]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

Btw. I got this weapon for a FN FAL with a century receiver, and a mini 14. Lol

 

[SGT TickleFight]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

It seems you got a fair price but not a steal by any means. I believe the cmp would offer something in that condition for around $1200 (correct grade). Definitely display case worthy.

Much nicer than my garand which someone drilled and tapped for a scope mount. At least it shoots 1.5 to 2 moa!

Congrats on owning a great rifle. Just feed her the right ammo!

 

[DV]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Locking shoulder is post war also </div></div>

What part is the locking shoulder? Never heard that term in association with a M1 before.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kylemishaps</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This is an original stock.

</div></div>

Yes - an original HRA or Boyds commercial, but not an original SA pre or post war. Got a 3.3, 4.2, and 4.3 SA in the safe with original stocks, and not a one of them has a big back porch like yours.

Got plenty of original box cartouches too - none as sharp and deep as yours, not even on my 5 digit as new lend lease gun.

Forgery stock bro.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DV</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Locking shoulder is post war also </div></div>

What part is the locking shoulder? Never heard that term in association with a M1 before. </div></div>

Sorry - slang for this part - gas cylinder lock.

http://www.civilianmarksmanship.com/nomenclaturehtml/nomenclaturegascyllock.html

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kylemishaps</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This is an original stock.

</div></div>

Yes - an original HRA or Boyds commercial, but not an original SA pre or post war. Got a 3.3, 4.2, and 4.3 SA in the safe with original stocks, and not a one of them has a big back porch like yours.

Got plenty of original box cartouches too - none as sharp and deep as yours, not even on my 5 digit as new lend lease gun.

Forgery stock bro. </div></div>

I don't know much about Garands so can't add to this other than to point out that the Tom Findley stamps I got on my 1903 are also very deep and sharp.

I also found a bloke on Ebay specialising in M1 stamps...I posted a link to his Ebay shop in ArcticLight's Tom Findley thread.

Certainly on Enfields and Mausers, if you have a complete "textbook" set of stamps, all in 100% condition after 70 years or more then it is probably advisable to ask some questions

 

[bill rogers]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

Wouldn't this rifle's being in a museum for thirty years go a long way toward precluding the forgeries that are becoming common now a days? And how did the rifle get out of the museum?

 

[kylemishaps]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Paladin 01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wouldn't this rifle's being in a museum for thirty years go a long way toward precluding the forgeries that are becoming common now a days? And how did the rifle get out of the museum? </div></div>

The owner stated that it was lended to the museum by his grandfather. Don't know honestly if that's true, but he said his grandfather had asked for it back before he passed to give it to the owner that I traded to. Again, don't know of any truth, but his story was believable because he remember the dates and museum exactly every time I asked him to tell me again. I was mostly trading by my knowledge of the weapon. I knew it wasn't all original, but you rarely get to come across one in that good of shape.

 

[Orlando]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

Need better pics of the stock. Something isnt right.
You may have been fed a story as far as being in a museum for 30 years.
As somone already said its either a commercial stock or a HRA
Pull the buttplate, is there anything stamped on the stock under it?
Any other stamps on the wood anywhere?
Even if stock is fake you have a nice looking rifle. Hopefully you bought the rifle not the story

 

[Orlando]

Re: M1 garand RARE find


Sorry to tell you this but I showed the pic of the Cartouche to a stock expert and as suspected he said the stamp was clearly a fake
If you paid alot of $$$ you may want to try and get your money back
Good luck

 

[srtsam]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

ITs a very nice rifle. But, this is exactly the reason I never spend a lot of money on old rifles. I would absolutely love a real K98 sniper rifle, or 1903 A4, hell even a Korean war Garand sniper model. With all the reproductions, fakes, refurbs, knockoffs, storis of the rifle being forgotten in a trunk in a house somewhere, to put out serious coin in either trade or hard money seems to be taking an enormous risk. Conversely, a local smith had supposedly an all original k98 sniper rifle with everything including training barrel yada, yada, yada, he really didn't want to sell it but said if he were to move it, he would need close to 20K.

 

[eracer]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

This is why I paid $800 for my SA receiver, CMP stock, newly re-barreled shooter.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Paladin 01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wouldn't this rifle's being in a museum for thirty years go a long way toward precluding the forgeries that are becoming common now a days? And how did the rifle get out of the museum? </div></div>

That's if you buy the "30 years in a museum" story.

To me it's like buying second-hand cars.....if the ad says very low mileage but the seats, trim, pedals look like they've been to the moon and back. You'd be a little dubious.

Here it is in reverse...68 year old service rifle that looks like new. OK, if it is refurbished, restored, rebuilt etc. you'd expect it to look great. And if that is the basis on which it was sold, then no problem.

I have a 1915 all matching SMLE that I know was in a small regimental museum in the UK for around 20 years until it closed and the rifle was sold to a private collector....that still leaves nearly 80 years of service and private use pre- and post-museum time. Whilst that rifle has all the correct stamps they do show considerable signs of wear and exposure to the elements, just as you'd expect from a rifle that went through WW1 and WW2 and was in service for decades.

In the case of the Garand here, it still has nearly 40 years of service life or private ownership unaaccounted for....you would expect some signs of wear on the stock and effect on the stamps, either from everyday use, handling or exposure to weather (for example damp swelling the wood and closing the stamps up a bit).

It certainly merits some further investigation with the vendor as to how or whether they can prove the claimed provenance....such as:

- What museum was it in?
- When and from where did they acquire this rifle? That should give you a basis to judge whether the number of years it would have been in service before this date is reflected in the condition.
- Where and....as you say...why did they get rid of it?
- To what extent had it been restored or parts replaced (not something I'd expect a museum to do though!)?
- Can they give you the name of the curator? Or try to contact them yourself to check.....

After my recent experience with a scope mount I'd say trust no-one unless you can verify their claims independently and come down hard on any bastards trying to rip you off!

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

Showed the pics to a very knowledgeable M1 collector. He actually documented and graded rifles for the CMP at one time and wrote articles filling in the blanks on post war production centered around heat lots.

He says the stock is clearly a Boyd's with the big back porch as well as the oversize dimension of the handguard just in front of the receiver and the size of the op rod relief on the right side of the handguard. The crossed cannons design detail gave him pause as well.

As far as calling it a rebuild under JLG's eye and the stock an HRA supplied replacement to explain the big back porch, HRA did not supply stocks to SA for rebuild purposes at that time.

Forgery.

 

[shoepop]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you got a mixmaster forgery is what you got. That stamp and that big back porch would have never been on the same stock at the same time. The bolt is a code 65 post war bolt. Read me the heat lot number below the drawing number and I can tell you when it was made. Locking shoulder is post war also.

As the saying goes, buy the rifle, not the story. </div></div>

Me thinks you are correct.
Kyle enjoy the rifle forget the stories.

 

[kylemishaps]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

Reguardless. I got a M1 with 2.7 mil serials for a busted up FAL and a mini 14. I think I came out just fine. Like I mentioned, I traded mostly for the rifle and not for his story. 2.7 mil S/N is hard to come by in that shape. So I'm still happy with my find.

 

[Kentucky Jelly]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

Just go shoot it, and have fun. Just don't pass along the story now that you know it is BS.

 

[Mudcat-NC]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kylemishaps</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So I'm still happy with my find. </div></div>

Then that is all that matters. Just dont be mad at the guys for pointing out the "inconsistencies" of the story you were sold vs what you really got as your issue is with the peddler, not the guys here. If possible, always ask about those deals here or elsewhere BEFORE buying.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kylemishaps</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So I'm still happy with my find. </div></div>

Then that is all that matters. </div></div>

+1 Enjoy it!

 

[bronco_buster]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

IF...the FAL was built on a US made Century receiver, you didn't get robbed, especially if you love Garands. If you traded a "Century marked Imbel" receivered rifle, you definitely got taken, IMHO.

But, as in all things gun related, whatever floats your boat. I wouldn't trade anything for a Mini, and I wouldn't trade my FAL's for just about anything.

I love your Garand, it looks great. If you're happy with it, that's all that counts.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kylemishaps</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reguardless. 2.7 mil S/N is hard to come by in that shape. </div></div>

A friend of mine wanted to build an M1 for his brother on a receiver that was manufactured the same month as his brother's WWII era Jeep was.

One phone call and under $200 later, he had a the exact receiver he wanted on the way from the CMP.

Not as hard as you might think.

 

[kylemishaps]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

No. Absolutely not mad about anything. You could have told me the whole rifle was a fake and I'd still be happy. I don't get brought down too easy. Hell, it was just a mini and a FAL. I come across those all day long. I could go to my gun shop and buy a mini and FAL from DSA if I wanted right now, just wanted a M1 and hadn't seen one in a long time. I didn't plan on continuing the story. I never really do unless I know 100% it was true. Thanks guys for all the info.

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

If you didnt plan on continuing the story then why even tell the story here ?

 

[rusty815]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

Regardless of its authenticity, this is one of the better looking garands that I've seen, I'm sure you'll enjoy the rifle.

 

[gbernardski]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

That a great looking rifle!

 

[samnev]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kylemishaps</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So I'm still happy with my find. </div></div>

Then that is all that matters. </div></div>

+1 Enjoy it!

</div></div>
+2 Enjoy it no matter what anyone says If your happy that's all that counts

 

[GorbashUK]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

Some good advice here.

I was in a similar position 5 years ago, I was after a K98 sniper, a 'real 1'. I did all my homework, bought the books, learned all the codes, I did my bit. I ended up being offered 1 from a dealer in England who I had previously bought from and was selling the rifle on behalf of another. It came with the exact same story as yours, been stored in a museum for 30 years, donater fell on hard times, took rifle back and wanted to sell it. When I eventually got fotos of the rifle it turned out to be a hashed up repro load of shite.

Im not saying your gun is like this but beware when you get told a story.

Your gun looks great, good shoot it, have a good time but dont read too much into the backstory.

Dale

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

There is a guy from Colorado Springs with the initials G P that came on here for a while that has faked several K98 snipers. In fact he had a web site dedicated to him by someone he ripped off selling what was supposed to be a Jeep Mut motor.

Some situations are deliberate fraud; others are just the unknowing repeating things they have been told.

I was in France in 2008, getting a battlefield tour (free, friend of a friend) in the Somme, when we stopped at a private museum in the countryside. Private meaning a local farmer that had picked up and held on to stuff, his previous generations as well. At one point our guide picked up an 03 Spfld and started telling its history, tracing it back to WW I. He handed it to me. It had Remington written on the receiver and 43 on the barrel. He was unaware that the US had Remmy use some old tooling to build O3s for them in that period. Well intended but historically inaccurate.

We had a guy come into our local shop a few years back, M1 in hand, Korean war Vet hat on, stickers all over his car, clearly too young to have fought in Korea. He told an elaborate tail about his fighting in the Chosin campaign and how he had fought with then brought this rifle back with him and wanted it cleaned and checked out.

After he left, the smith (one of the most knowledgeable M1 collectors in the US) handed me the rifle.

It was an IHC Mixmaster with "Blue Sky" on the side of the barrel (re-import back in the 80s) with the receiver SN dating to 1955 manufacturing. IHC didn't even get the contract to build M1s until 1954. The Chosin campaign was the winter of 1950-51.

As I said in the first post, buy the rifle, not the story.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: M1 garand RARE find

i have my pappy's hipoint 9mm he carried during the Tet Offensive of 1974, i will never sell that gun.