M118LR Load Question

[gunsnjeeps]

So 43.1 Gr of RE15 and 175 SMK is M118LR load. I'm reloading M118LR brass. My question is how hard is this on a .308 Garand? I've shot matches in the past with this as issued ammo. For 100 and 200 yard matches I shoot surplus ball or equivalent. Does anyone have a load they prefer?

 

[Lt. Arclight]

Re: M118LR Load Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunsnjeeps</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So 43.1 Gr of RE15 and 175 SMK is M118LR load. I'm reloading M118LR brass. My question is how hard is this on a .308 Garand? I've shot matches in the past with this as issued ammo. For 100 and 200 yard matches I shoot surplus ball or equivalent. Does anyone have a load they prefer? </div></div>

REAL HARD.That's a bolt gun load as you are aware.Its going to beat the hell out of the op rod etc.. Ok for the M1A-It'll make a big difference in accuracy-provided you've done all the accuracy mods to your Garand. IIRC the powder of choice is IMR4198 for the Garand- Its been about 15 years since I loaded for mine-all were in 30-06 too.

 

[sinister]

Re: M118LR Load Question

You're fine.

For both the M1 and M1A use a medium burn rate powder like 4895, 4064, VV135, or Varget. Reloader 15 is within that range.

44 of Varget's about the max before you start abusing the op rod. You might reserve your 44s for the 600-yard line.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: M118LR Load Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunsnjeeps</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So 43.1 Gr of RE15 and 175 SMK is M118LR load. I'm reloading M118LR brass. My question is how hard is this on a .308 Garand? I've shot matches in the past with this as issued ammo. For 100 and 200 yard matches I shoot surplus ball or equivalent. Does anyone have a load they prefer? </div></div>

REAL HARD.That's a bolt gun load as you are aware.Its going to beat the hell out of the op rod etc.. Ok for the M1A-It'll make a big difference in accuracy-provided you've done all the accuracy mods to your Garand. IIRC the powder of choice is IMR4198 for the Garand- Its been about 15 years since I loaded for mine-all were in 30-06 too. </div></div>

For 30'06, the powder standard is IMR-4895, in the Garand.

2660 fps for bullets in the 172-173gr weight range, 2700 fps for a 150gr tip.

Any powder with a similar burn rate to IMR-4895, in a 30'06 case, is also suitable. H-4895 for example, IMR 4064, et. al.

Now, in a 308 Win Garand, in my limited experience, all bets are off as to what is suitable or not.

Chris

 

[Grump]

Re: M118LR Load Question

I don't know the port pressure specs for the Garand. Post it and I can estimate what that load will produce and you can then decide.

My educated guess is that you will be fine. The old guys used to go as slow as either 4350 or something (I'd have to look it up) with 173-grain FMJBTs and had problems only when they tried to exceed the M72 load velocity in .30-06. If anything, I'm sure the .308 at 100 fps slower should be easier on the op rod.

 

[Hummer]

Re: M118LR Load Question

Port pressures generated in Garands to operate the system need to be between 8000 and 11,000 lbs.
What needs to be remembered is the system was designed to operate with 150 gr. bullets and does quite well with those. The problem comes in when they went to heavier bullets like 173 MATCH and the load in them was 46 gr. 4895 +/- . When the military was building the Match M1s some armorers would gage three op rods and issue with each rifle as the 30.06 ammo would warp the rods during the shooting season, thusly someone like a reserve shooter not having armorer van support at every match was issued three op rods to get them through the season.
The Navy Team was the first to go with 308 M1s and to their surprise the same op rod lasted the entire season due to the 7.62 Match giving lower port pressures. A good middle of the road load I used was 40 gr. 4895 and 168s in my 308 Match Rifles.

The real problem with Garands comes in when you get a Tanker model with the gas port six inches closer to the chamber. I have one so built and ejection was 11:30 to 12:00 and I could feel the bolt bottoming out on the horseshoe.

The Navy did the most work on Garands and they went to vented gas plugs. I made my own from stainless steel stock. I started using small number drills and ejection started off at 5:00 so I opened it up and it went to 4:00, opened again and it went to 3:00. When it got to between 1:00 and 2:00 I stopped opening the port. Now I can shoot 30.06 with 150 or 173 bullets and both loads will give me ejection pattern between 1:00 and 2:00.

If you can get a load around 8000 to 9000 lbs and still maintain 80% of case volume you should be OK. DO NOT GO BELOW published load data as loads below this can result in spiked pressures.

Also if you keep bullet weights between 150 and 168 you should be OK.

As a final note I lube the gas piston area with 0W20/0W30 Mobil 1 Synthetic Motor oil. This will keep the carbon soft at op rod tip. You can lube lower side of op rod and store M1 Muzzle down and oil will run in there. On mine I put about five drops in screw driver opening on end of op rod and it runs in the gas vent hole.

I ran the Tanker 250 rounds without cleaning op rod end. When I pulled it down it was black with carbon but it was all suspended in the Mobil 1 and all I did was take a paper towel and wipe it off. No scraping required.

I now run Mobil 1 in all my gas guns. I published this on another forum maybe 2006/7 time frame and heard a few months later the Army MTU was using Mobil 1 on their AR gas systems.
A buddy of mine said he talked to a guy at Perry who said he didn't clean his bolt carrier till the end of the season and just kept putting Mobil 1 in ports. I can't confirm that because I haven't done it but plan on running the same testing this next season just to see with a 16" barrel.

There are several variations of vented gas plugs available commercially for Garand and I would recommend using one and keep your pressures lower as well.

 

[black_ump]

Re: M118LR Load Question

i have seen m118 175 gr bullets on gunbroker and have though about buying them to load for my msg90 clone, how ever i have been using blc-2 powder for all my loads, will this powder work for these bullets?

i dont see many people using blc2

 

[Hummer]

Re: M118LR Load Question

you are better off with 4895 or Varget or N140.

 

[jwoolf]

Re: M118LR Load Question

the LC White box M118 ( not to be confused with M118LR ) is loaded with 41.5gr of IMR 4895 in LC brass. I have a LOT of this white box match ammo and, with 175smk I duplicate the velocity exactly with LC brass. I would NOT go hotter than that with IMR 4895 and most do not load it even that hot ( for my M1A SuperMatch ).

EDIT: Sorry, I believe Hummer was speaking to the 30-06 M72 load for 30-06 ( 46gr of IMR 4895 )and the M1 Garand... I was talking about the load for the 7.62x51

I still have a BOAT load of that M72 173gr ammo.

 

[sherlok]

Re: M118LR Load Question

Just get the adjustable gas plug, adjust it from open to where it functions reliably with your load, and then don't worry about it. Much cheaper than a new op rod.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=777146

I whittled out a little groove between butstock holes so the allen wrench can be carried. Great device.

Sherlok

 

[Hummer]

Re: M118LR Load Question

I pulled some M118 once and it had 44 gr 4895 compressed load.

Yep the stuff I was talking about is M72 Match for Garand.

 

[ewoaf]

Re: M118LR Load Question

for a 308 garand, you'd probably be better off with m852 rather than m118

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: M118LR Load Question

The M852 was the issue ammo the first year I shot. The next year the Navy issue ammo was M118LR. I think I might just work up a load with 150 grain SGK's around 2750 fps. The M118LR is a little warm for .308 and even thought the Garand works with it I think I may let it have a liesurly retiement.

 

[FunkBass2008]

Re: M118LR Load Question

Has anyone here actually chrono'd the m118lr ammo? I'd be interested to know what velocities you got.. Isn't it advertised at 2600fps +/- ?

BTW, checking my log book I see that I had 43.9 gr or RE15 pushing 175 SMK's at around 2590 - 2608 fps. out of a 24" 5R barrel.

My guess is that 43.1 gr would get you going at around 2500, but its possible my scale was off a little..

 

[BHP9]

Re: M118LR Load Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunsnjeeps</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So 43.1 Gr of RE15 and 175 SMK is M118LR load. I'm reloading M118LR brass. My question is how hard is this on a .308 Garand? I've shot matches in the past with this as issued ammo. For 100 and 200 yard matches I shoot surplus ball or equivalent. Does anyone have a load they prefer? </div></div>

REAL HARD.That's a bolt gun load as you are aware.Its going to beat the hell out of the op rod etc.. Ok for the M1A-It'll make a big difference in accuracy-provided you've done all the accuracy mods to your Garand. IIRC the powder of choice is IMR4198 for the Garand- Its been about 15 years since I loaded for mine-all were in 30-06 too. </div></div>

That load (43.1gr/RL15) is the current "downloaded" M118LR. The original was a higher charge and it caused problems in Iraq with the M14's.

They found out that RL15 IS temperature sensitive.

 

[Grump]

Re: M118LR Load Question

Well, it looks like 42.0 grains of 4064 makes the 175-gr SMK fly as well as FGMM out of my M1A. 2580 fps at 10 feet for both of them, within the 2550 +/- 30 fps at 26 yards standard (JBM says it's 2538 or something at 25 yards).

This is at 65 F, and QuickLOAD says it's still safe at 110 F.

Port pressure predictions are just fine, too. Ejection pattern indicates proper op rod traveling speed.

FC cases, CCI primers. No prep in this last batch of brass--so it's the same as FGMM factory. Will probably break down and uniform flash holes on the next load.

Every time I start on a bughole group, the 4th shot wanders out 3/4 an inch. But hey, it's an M1A.

We do have a report somewhere here on the Hide of someone getting almost 100 fps faster out of M118LR in his M1A. Too few firsthand real-world reports to draw any conclusions yet.

But for those of you who don't trust that "soft" Federal brass in your 2800 fps 175-grain loads, or your 3000 fps 155-gr loads out of 26-inch barrels, just send it to me and be confident that no one will be stretching out the primer pockets.

 

[Grump]

Re: M118LR Load Question

According to my sources, your load will give about 2610 FPS out of a 24-inch Garand barrel and will have only 7463 psi pressure at the muzzle. At 1/2-inch back, the graphs say 9521 psi.

Sounds like your load really doesn't need a vented plug.

That's with the case capacity of 56.8 in a fired case. My USGI cases are more like 55.5 gr, and that is expected to change things to 2641 fps and 7418 at the muzzle, still 9521 a half-inch back.

 

[NukeMMC]

Re: M118LR Load Question

Just want you folks to remember that when you try to duplicate these US Arsenal velocities are taken at 78ft from the muzzle. Most of us are shooting across chronographs about 10-15ft from the muzzle.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: M118LR Load Question

I haven't been doing anything with the Garand. I've been playing with the AR this summer. I'll probably do some Garand work up in October. My rifle plans this year go out to Butner in September.

 

[m1match]

Re: M118LR Load Question

It's not RE15, but for 8 years I shot match tuned .308 M1 Garands in NRA Highpower and my loads were LC Match cases, CCI 34 primers, Sierra 168 and 175 Match Kings (175s for the 600 yard line) and 42.0 grains of IMR 4064. I shot thousands of these with no signs of excess pressure, and no bent op rods in my Garands. The LC cases are heavier and therefore have less case capacity than FC cases, so these loads should be slightly higher pressure and velocity than 42 grains in an FC case. I chronographed the loads a few days ago out of my .308 bolt gun with a 24" Rock Creek 5R barrel and a 10 shot string had an average velocity of 2667 fps. If I ever run out of 4064, I might try RE15, but this load works so well, I'm not going to mess around for now with anything different.

 

[doc76251]

Re: M118LR Load Question

FWIW the M-852 load is 168gr SMK over 42.0gr of IMR-4895. This load works exceptionally well in not only M1A's but Navy MK-2 Garands (and customs). In the late 80's / early 90's we would "Mexican Match" M852 with 172's or even 180gr SMK's for the long line. They worked well in M1A's as well as Garands. It was also advisable to dump all the powder and reweigh to 42.0gr, you'd usually come up 1 round short

. Polishing the inside neck w/ a bore brush was also preferred.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Travelor]

Off topic a bit, but I'm looking for some empty brown boxes that were used with M118LR ammo. Want these empties to fill with my M119LR load for my personal use, not for sale or trade.

My current load is 43.3 grains of Varget in 2004 LC cases and FGMM primers and 175 grain SMK loaded to Remington 700 PSS mag length. They shoot very well (1/2 MOA) in my rifle.