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M14 craving - wanting to build the ultimate sub-moa M14.
- Thread starter The_New_Sniper
- Start date
I am leaving my NM alone, thanks for the advice. Its fine the way it is. I think the Troy setup with a PRS and my NF would be one banging setup. Even if it is 1.5 moa all day so what? I have killed more shit with a 3 moa rifle than any of these 1/4" grouping paper pokers have. At the end of the day its what I buy guns for, to bring home Bacon.
NM with the Kreiger or a Super match will get you there, I like the wood stock myself. Dont pay attention to the haters.
In a SAGE Mod 1 stock its not as unbalanced as you might think, at least on mine anyway.
I have four M1A's. One super match in a Mac stock, one standard rifle with NM mods in a Mac stock, standard rifle in USGI fiberglass and a Scout Squad in a SAGE chassis. The rifles with the Mac stocks are a pure joy to fire slung up and "feel" different than a wood or USGI glass stock. I was intrigued by the chassis systems and wanted to try one myself and make my own analysis. Since I recently put mine together I have yet to get rounds down range to evaluate. The SAGE Mod 1 is almost 2 lbs lighter with the Magpul stock furniture vs the metal used on the Mod 0.
USGI fiberglass~
Mac glass stocks~
SAGE EBR Mod 1 / Note the balance point and not excessively nose or ass heavy.
M14 craving - wanting to build the ultimate sub-moa M14.
I took an M1A Scout and did the following and made it a sub MOA rifle.
-shimmed gas system
-installed NM guide rod
-installed Sadlak piston
-put it all in a fiberglass GI stock
Not a whole lot invested and it shoots sub MOA all day. Now, can this be done with every M1A? I doubt it. I think I got lucky. Here's the only pic I have of it right now, and it's a few months old.
I took an M1A Scout and did the following and made it a sub MOA rifle.
-shimmed gas system
-installed NM guide rod
-installed Sadlak piston
-put it all in a fiberglass GI stock
Not a whole lot invested and it shoots sub MOA all day. Now, can this be done with every M1A? I doubt it. I think I got lucky. Here's the only pic I have of it right now, and it's a few months old.
I think allthe guys who have spent years pulling their hair out would like to see some targets and load data.
Here is a 20 shot string shot prone, jacket, sling with irons on the 300 yard reduced to 200. For reference the X ring is 1.9 inch on this reduced target. This was taken a couple of years ago. If you pick and choose groups as most people tend to do, you can see the big hole 3 o'clock of the X ring. This was during the first range session with the rifle after adjusting the sights for no wind zero.
The rifle is capable of producing excellent groups. Sub minute "All day long" It is not. I have a couple of dozens of gas guns from 223, 260, 308, and 30-06 that are precise enough to produce excellent groups, however the last real sub moa rifles that I can honestly claim were my bench rest guns back in the 80s.
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My fist serious battle Rifle was my DCM Garand. A few years later, I took a huge chance with my marriage and snapped up a 'Loaded' SA M1A at a gun show. That M1A cost me over $3000 altogether (in the early 1990's), after adding on the diamonds and emeralds it took to restore peace in the valley.
I finished the stock with Tru-Oil, glassbedded it, and added a much needed stock extension to fit my 6 1/2ft frame.
I also did two iterations of scope mounting a Leupold Vari-X II 6-24x40. It never accepted that it was to be a scoped rifle. The 175SMK, Rem Brass, Fed 210M, 42.2gr IMR-4064 load was exquisite, and with the scope, it delivered 1MOA at 300yd. The real problem was that the scope wouldn't stay locked down and reliable. I accepted fate and shot the rifle as a (mostly) service rifle. It excelled in that guise. Times got especially tough in our valley, and the M1A was sold to make a couple of badly needed mortgage payments. The diamonds and emeralds still help shore up the foundations of our marriage.
If I were to do a do-over, I'd strongly consider a synthetic stock, the SA synthetic first, and if that was not a good answer, the McMillan. But fact is, my Garand serves all my needs for which an M1A would be suitable. I have a box of German Berdan .308 FMJ in a place of honor, and no rifles that will shoot it.
Greg
I finished the stock with Tru-Oil, glassbedded it, and added a much needed stock extension to fit my 6 1/2ft frame.
I also did two iterations of scope mounting a Leupold Vari-X II 6-24x40. It never accepted that it was to be a scoped rifle. The 175SMK, Rem Brass, Fed 210M, 42.2gr IMR-4064 load was exquisite, and with the scope, it delivered 1MOA at 300yd. The real problem was that the scope wouldn't stay locked down and reliable. I accepted fate and shot the rifle as a (mostly) service rifle. It excelled in that guise. Times got especially tough in our valley, and the M1A was sold to make a couple of badly needed mortgage payments. The diamonds and emeralds still help shore up the foundations of our marriage.
If I were to do a do-over, I'd strongly consider a synthetic stock, the SA synthetic first, and if that was not a good answer, the McMillan. But fact is, my Garand serves all my needs for which an M1A would be suitable. I have a box of German Berdan .308 FMJ in a place of honor, and no rifles that will shoot it.
Greg
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I have enough experience with M14s to tell you how to get there. It's not worth doing though.
I have an honest 1 MOA M14NM. Best results are achieved when you have a bunch of spare parts and one of the best NM armorers building your gun. And lots of money.
I am going to build another one soon that will be the ultimate National Match M14 you could make. Double lugged receiver. Kreiger barrel with a secret squirrel match chamber, bedded into a McMillan stock. And all of the little NM upgrades to go a long with it, and new old-stock USGI parts.
At best it might perform as well as my issued AR10. But I like the nostalgia, and it's going to be a lot cheaper for me to build than it is for you.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
I have an honest 1 MOA M14NM. Best results are achieved when you have a bunch of spare parts and one of the best NM armorers building your gun. And lots of money.
I am going to build another one soon that will be the ultimate National Match M14 you could make. Double lugged receiver. Kreiger barrel with a secret squirrel match chamber, bedded into a McMillan stock. And all of the little NM upgrades to go a long with it, and new old-stock USGI parts.
At best it might perform as well as my issued AR10. But I like the nostalgia, and it's going to be a lot cheaper for me to build than it is for you.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
Sorry. It took me awhile to get out to the range. Just went out and shot the 6 groups below at 100 yards with Federal 150 gr factory rounds. And the pic of the rifle was taken at the same time (how it was setup when I shot the 6 groups).
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I loaded up 2 mags with 15 rounds each and shot those without any barrel cool down or anything. The top handguard was actually pretty warm when I got done. Went from left to right starting at the top. I think I am one of the lucky ones. Don't have that much invested and it shoots pretty dang good. I need to get some match grade and do the same 30 shots and see what that does. Maybe let everything cool down between strings too and put it on a bipod with a bag on the rear. Could tighten up things a bit. I shot those resting on the mag and the range bag up front. Held the rear of the stock with my left hand for support.
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Ignorance is like shit, you can flush it but another one is usually not far behind.
I have been very happy with the one I just configured. Took a stock Springfield NM and put in a Sage chassis, consistent 1.5 moa with the right ammo if I do my part. So far haven't been past 100 yards though.
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Mine is set up like the camo rifle in BYoung's pic, occasionally it'll pull off a near MOA group but just as often it'll go wild and shoot 2MOA. I've tried different pistons. bullets, powders, scopes, open sights, that's just how it is.
I know my rifle was probably a freak, but it was a very early Springfield Armory national match M1-A rifle with a standard weight barrel. The rifle shot .8-1.25 moa consistently. Most groups were around .8-1.1 moa. I learned that it shot lousy when clean, and it took about 15-20 rounds after cleaning before it would settle down and shoot well. Oddly, it seemed to shoot better when the barrel was warmed up a bit.
I put 15,000 rounds through that rifle in practical rifle matches in Oregon back in the 1980's before the barrel shot out. I had the barrel replaced with a Hart super match barrel, and the rifle never shot as well as it did with the previous barrel. I tried every load possible to get the Hart barrel to shoot as well as the previous one, but to no avail. I eventually sold the rifle in the early 1990's, but I still even remember it's serial number.
Every rifle has it's own unique properties. I learned my rifles peculiarities, and so it served me well. However, I now realize that my rifle was a freak rifle. But freaks are still out there. The problem is that you don't get to test all the rifles until you find that odd rifle that does shoot well.
For whatever it is worth, the load I shot most for matches inside 500 yards was the 130 grain Speer JHP. Maybe the barrel lasted so long because I didn't shoot really hot loads in it.
I put 15,000 rounds through that rifle in practical rifle matches in Oregon back in the 1980's before the barrel shot out. I had the barrel replaced with a Hart super match barrel, and the rifle never shot as well as it did with the previous barrel. I tried every load possible to get the Hart barrel to shoot as well as the previous one, but to no avail. I eventually sold the rifle in the early 1990's, but I still even remember it's serial number.
Every rifle has it's own unique properties. I learned my rifles peculiarities, and so it served me well. However, I now realize that my rifle was a freak rifle. But freaks are still out there. The problem is that you don't get to test all the rifles until you find that odd rifle that does shoot well.
For whatever it is worth, the load I shot most for matches inside 500 yards was the 130 grain Speer JHP. Maybe the barrel lasted so long because I didn't shoot really hot loads in it.
Long time lurker, first time poster. I love my M1As, but you need to temper expectations and be ready to spend a lot of money. I've spent thousands trying to catch the white whale M1A that shoots consistently .75 or better MOA. Tried wood-bedded, MacMillian, Sage, and JAE with mixed/somewhat disappointing results. The conclusion to my journey was that the best sub-MOA SASS is an AR-10 variant. Lighter weight and it will be more accurate with less work and money. Otherwise, a bolt action with a chassis will still be the most accurate and likely cost 1k-2k less.
Otherwise, an LRB receiver w/ USGI parts and a NM barrel in a Sage chassis with a Sadlak scope mount offered the best solution to tuning the barrel tension to minimize stringing and the cheek rest issue. Ted Brown built mine and it is a great shooter, but can't do what my Rem 700 will do.
Otherwise, an LRB receiver w/ USGI parts and a NM barrel in a Sage chassis with a Sadlak scope mount offered the best solution to tuning the barrel tension to minimize stringing and the cheek rest issue. Ted Brown built mine and it is a great shooter, but can't do what my Rem 700 will do.
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Fulton Aromory guarntees sub-MOA on their Peerless M1A. But NOT cheap.
Fulton Armory M14 Peerless NM Service Rifle *
Fulton Armory M14 Peerless NM Service Rifle *
Like everyone else I have had a few M1As and love the rifle. I have only had one that was a real shooter. It was an honest MOA rifle, meaning with the right load (which took a little searching) it was always 3/4" - 1.1xx" scoped and resting the fore arm on bags. Now slung up with irons was a different story. This rifle was a custom build double lugged and bolted into a McMillan stock with the heaviest 12t Kreiger barrel that would fit. The parts were all SA NM that were tuned by the builder. It was a fantastic rifle but was damn heavy! It was awesome when slung up prone but would wear my ass out off hand. I wish I had pictures, but that was before the days of computers in our pockets...
It can be done, and you have enough money. If you like the platform, go with it.
Join the M14forum and there are similar minded individuals that can assist.
Join the M14forum and there are similar minded individuals that can assist.
It is a great platform, can be made very accurate. Seeing as you have had experience with them previously, I'm sure you understand how difficult it is to drive consistently to moa or better. Certainly worth the pursuit though. I suggest that if you have hair, wear a hat to help deter pulling out out on your quest, especially after you have your rifle. Good luck with your quest.
If my other rifles new how much money I dumped into the M14, they would leave me.
I've been chasing an 18 inch light weight unicorn. If you didn't care about weight, I'd probably snag a used NM or SM for $2K or less. Springfield has a solid warranty and can do whatever work needed to get them shooting if there is an issue. "ultimate sub moa M14" can rack the register in the $5 grand neighborhood if you get a top smith to build you a custom.
Mine's currently with Jon Wolfe getting the Mod Fib stock with alignment bedding. There was play in my stock and groups were wandering, MORE than I find acceptable. Hoping this will tighten things up. All my hair has been pulled out. But I keep coming back for more. SEI crazy horse build on an Armscorp NM receiver. I figured SEI would address whatever needed to happen to make it a great shooter. How wrong I was.
The most insulting and hard to accept part of it all, is my SCAR 17 out shoots it from day one with the shitty trigger, AND it's lighter. But I don't care. I still like shooting the 14 better.
I've been chasing an 18 inch light weight unicorn. If you didn't care about weight, I'd probably snag a used NM or SM for $2K or less. Springfield has a solid warranty and can do whatever work needed to get them shooting if there is an issue. "ultimate sub moa M14" can rack the register in the $5 grand neighborhood if you get a top smith to build you a custom.
Mine's currently with Jon Wolfe getting the Mod Fib stock with alignment bedding. There was play in my stock and groups were wandering, MORE than I find acceptable. Hoping this will tighten things up. All my hair has been pulled out. But I keep coming back for more. SEI crazy horse build on an Armscorp NM receiver. I figured SEI would address whatever needed to happen to make it a great shooter. How wrong I was.
The most insulting and hard to accept part of it all, is my SCAR 17 out shoots it from day one with the shitty trigger, AND it's lighter. But I don't care. I still like shooting the 14 better.
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IME/IMO, the M14 drops from many capable of .5-.8 MOA to 1-1.5 MOA at rounds 4 and/or 5 in the group. I rebarrelled mine when a 2nd hard-found load opened up to 1.25-1.5 MOA all the time.
Both the prior barrel and this one will drop 2-3 rounds almost on top of each other out to 600. My spot that sorta goes beyond 500 is just too hard to set up targets with the time I've had available the past two years to really test beyond that.
Just measured the targets from the last zero check less than two weeks ago. The CDB and shot 2 at 200 yards were 1.6 inches with #3 noticeably low and centered below the 1st two shots. The WDB 3 shots at 300 grouped 1.63 inches. The two shots at 400 were 1.4 inches apart but .23 mil high. Was hotter that day than any prior serious zero check session I have done with this thing scoped on an SAI 3rd-Gen mount (two bolts, the rear one in their stupid modified replacement for the strip clip guide. The Gen I (?it's completely unmarked) has the rear bolt 1/4-inch or so further to the rear which enables the standard strip clip guide to just be drilled and tapped...).
Both were medium-heavy barrels. For scoped use and bipod I use a USGI fiberglass stock with two lengths of steel bedded and screwed into the forearm for stiffness. Don't know if it helps but it makes me feel better. With scope, sling, cleaning kit and empty mag it's two ounces shy of 16 pounds. (!)
So with forbidden 3-round groups, this one just did .77 MOA at 200 and .53 MOA at 300. The 2-round not really 'nuff to be called a group was .34 MOA.
The loads were at least a year old, 42.5 4064 under a Hornady 178-gr A-Max, CCI primers and I don't remember which ones were the FC cases (full prep and weight-sorted) or Lapua (on their last legs). Don't remember which, if any, were annealed before this loading...maybe only the Lapuas.
Oh, my unitized gas system broke apart but the shim(s) and proper nut timing seem to be holding things together just fine. Might get it re-welded the next month or two...
Now, the highpower bullseye target is about 2 MOA at 300 and 600, so for the prone stages we tend to be minimally satisfied with 1.5 MOA performance on 5- and 10-round strings. Military testing showed that 10-round groups go something like 1.2 times the size of 5-round groups, so a 1.5 gun on 5 rounds tends to be 1.8 MOA. That leaves only .1 MOA "wobble area" to clean a target. But since the matches tend to be won with the points from standing scores, IME shooter skill there is more important than losing 1 or 2 points at 300 or 600.
Now this last set of data points with this rifle was only 8 shots, with probably another 20 fired between the 300 and 400 zero checks. My plan is to do 10 rounds at 100 two times over two different sessions, using separate aimpoints, so I can try to isolate any barrel warming/dispersion patterns.
BTW, do any of those M14 chassis systems leave the barrel free-floating (within the limits of an attached gas cylinder, of course)?
Both the prior barrel and this one will drop 2-3 rounds almost on top of each other out to 600. My spot that sorta goes beyond 500 is just too hard to set up targets with the time I've had available the past two years to really test beyond that.
Just measured the targets from the last zero check less than two weeks ago. The CDB and shot 2 at 200 yards were 1.6 inches with #3 noticeably low and centered below the 1st two shots. The WDB 3 shots at 300 grouped 1.63 inches. The two shots at 400 were 1.4 inches apart but .23 mil high. Was hotter that day than any prior serious zero check session I have done with this thing scoped on an SAI 3rd-Gen mount (two bolts, the rear one in their stupid modified replacement for the strip clip guide. The Gen I (?it's completely unmarked) has the rear bolt 1/4-inch or so further to the rear which enables the standard strip clip guide to just be drilled and tapped...).
Both were medium-heavy barrels. For scoped use and bipod I use a USGI fiberglass stock with two lengths of steel bedded and screwed into the forearm for stiffness. Don't know if it helps but it makes me feel better. With scope, sling, cleaning kit and empty mag it's two ounces shy of 16 pounds. (!)
So with forbidden 3-round groups, this one just did .77 MOA at 200 and .53 MOA at 300. The 2-round not really 'nuff to be called a group was .34 MOA.
The loads were at least a year old, 42.5 4064 under a Hornady 178-gr A-Max, CCI primers and I don't remember which ones were the FC cases (full prep and weight-sorted) or Lapua (on their last legs). Don't remember which, if any, were annealed before this loading...maybe only the Lapuas.
Oh, my unitized gas system broke apart but the shim(s) and proper nut timing seem to be holding things together just fine. Might get it re-welded the next month or two...
Now, the highpower bullseye target is about 2 MOA at 300 and 600, so for the prone stages we tend to be minimally satisfied with 1.5 MOA performance on 5- and 10-round strings. Military testing showed that 10-round groups go something like 1.2 times the size of 5-round groups, so a 1.5 gun on 5 rounds tends to be 1.8 MOA. That leaves only .1 MOA "wobble area" to clean a target. But since the matches tend to be won with the points from standing scores, IME shooter skill there is more important than losing 1 or 2 points at 300 or 600.
Now this last set of data points with this rifle was only 8 shots, with probably another 20 fired between the 300 and 400 zero checks. My plan is to do 10 rounds at 100 two times over two different sessions, using separate aimpoints, so I can try to isolate any barrel warming/dispersion patterns.
BTW, do any of those M14 chassis systems leave the barrel free-floating (within the limits of an attached gas cylinder, of course)?
