M1903 Springfield Marine A5 Sniper Variant

[cplnorton]

I sort of hijacked PmClaines thread the other day, but heck maybe some of you might be interested in this.

Several years back I got interested in the Winchester A5 snipers from WWI. And reading the books that have been written on them, usually you will find a one or two sentence paragraph and nothing else. So I took several years and pulled all WWI documents from the Winchester files at Cody, and several other Archive locations around the country. Also I should give a special thanks to Andrew Stolinksi as he spent a huge amount of time pulling the documents from the National Archives as well on this topic.

It's much more in dept than this, but this is a short abbreviation of the history.

The most common known version of the A5 sniper is the Mann Niedner. Which is often pictured in books. But there is a second variation from WWI that is not really known. This variation was used by both the Marines and the Army in WWI.

In May/June 1917, Adolph Niedner Mounted 150 Winchester A5 scopes on Marine rifles in Philadelphia. He was supposed to take a short vacation and come back and mount 1500 more. But after making some comments in a bar, that the patrons considered un-American. They contacted the FBI and stated that they thought Niedner might have been a German Saboteur. Since he was a German Immigrant, a full FBI investigation ensued for nearly 2 years, and Niedner was lucky he probably wasn't imprisoned.

The FBI though was concerned that the rifles that Niedner had mounted might have been sabotaged, so Niedner was basically fired by the Marines. The Contract was Given to Winchester in July 1917 to mount 500 A5 scopes on rifles provided by the USMC. These rifles were mounted and all shipped by late 1917. One of these rifles is pictured in France and is dated 1917 in the official National Archives documents. But it is possible it might have been taken in the first couple weeks in January 1918.

In January 1918, with delays in the Model of 1918 Sniper ( A sporterized M1917 rifle with new Winchester scope modeled after the German Goerz design) that WRA had promised to the Army, and a shortage of 4000 Warner Swasey rifles from an undelivered contract. The Army contacted WRA and requested that they would like the exact same A5 style rifle that the Marines had received in 1917. The first order was for 500 rifles. The rifles were supplied by Springfield Armory and were shipped to WRA. WRA mounted up to 40 rifles per day. After the first 500 order had all shipped back by March 1918, the Army requested another order of 400 mounted by WRA. So in total the US Army had received 900. It is noted that these rifles were to be used for emergency stateside training. But they did for sure go to France with the US Army as I have inventory counts of them in Army Depots in France.

There is not any difference in the rifles that WRA mounted for the US Army than the ones mounted for the US Marines. In fact the Army was adamant on the fact that the rfiles and even the accessories to the rifles, be exactly what the Marines had received in 1917.

It is also interesting to note that before the war officially ended, the Army actually made this style rifle the official sniper rifle. Even though in the document it states it is only a placeholder until the WRA Model of 1918 sniper could be finished by WRA. But this a fact that has never been notated in a book, as everyone only details the usage of the Warner Swasey and the Army.

The blocks on this rifle are nicknamed by WRA as the "Springfield Marine." It appears in the WRA documents that they first show up around Spring 1917. The spacing on these blocks are the traditional 7.2'' spacing, and are of a beefier design that an earlier version WRA had created with 6'' on center spacing, which WRA had named the "Springfield." WRA had provided the US Army several 6'' on center sniper rifles with the "Springfield" blocks in 1914/15. But the US Army said in the trials that they were too weak to be used on a sniper and the 6'' on center spacing was troublesome. So the 7.2'' Springfield Marine blocks seem to be created to address the downfalls of the rifles the Army trialed earlier.

First this is the most common pictured A5 sniper in all sniper books. The date and location was never detailed in any books, as they said it was unidentified. I found the picture at the National Archives and had a high quality scan taken of the glass plate. The Picture is an Army Signal corps Photograph and is dated 1917 of a Marine in France with one of the WRA rifles.

This picture below was posted by someone else on another forum and incorrectly labeled as a Mann Niedner. Its actually of the WRA style.

Here are the rifles pictured with the US Army.

 

[cplnorton]

Here is a rifle I believe to be from the Marine or Army contract in WWI. The serial is 368,496. Which would place it made in 1909. It is also a 1909 National Match. The rifle is 100% original with no replacement parts. Even though there is no way to tell if this was Army or Marines. I supsect it was actually Marine as I'm finding a lot of evidence of Marine sniper rifles in the mid 300k serial range like this.

I believe this might be because the Marines had only received NM rifles in certain years. I can track 400 in 1909, and 100 in 1910. And then the next shipment I can personally track is in 1919. Which for 1909 and 1910, a NM rifle was basically one that only had hand selected parts and a star guaged barrel. I suspect some of these earlier NM Rifles might have been used in sniper conversions, and as they ran out of the supply of these, then new rifles were supplemented in the 600k block.

But since the rifles were provided by the Marines and shipped to WRA. I believe it's possible any serial range could have been converted. The only requirement, it had to be a Marine rifle from Marine stock and predate the shipment. I have seen mention of a MArine sniper rifle in the Marine documents in the 280k serial range, and as high as the late 600k range.

Here is the rifle.

 

[cplnorton]

It is interesting to note the most famous picture of a Marine with a A5 in France above, the rifle is a pre 1910 rifle. As evidenced by the high wood single bolt stock, and no reinforcing clips in the handguard. Both changes that had occured by 1910. Also it's not for certain but it appears it also has the small windage knob, which is also pre 1910. All of these traits are also present on my rifle. And when you match the rifles up in pictures. They are the same.

Digging in the Winchester files, I also found in the WRA files a serial documented in the 367,000 range. Which is about a 1000 digits off mine above. I also found high quality pictures of the rifles in the Winchester files. Even though there are several pics of this rifle taken by WRA. I would like to only post this one, as the other ones give up a trait on how to tell a real rifle, and I would like to reserve that for finding more of these. And I don't want fakers to know this trait yet. As it stands right now, I can only document four rifles that are complete. One at the Cody museum, the one above, and two who are owned by another top sniper collector. If you by chance think you have one of these rifles please contact me at [email protected]. From the way it sounds in the Marine and Army files. These rifles probably were torn down for parts in the 20's and 30's and probably destroyed. I doubt many exist today. But I have hope that since they haven't been discussed in a book, some more might surface to study.


This is the original picture from Winchester. This rifle is still at the Cody museum today.

But the original pic I found, was highly detailed, so I could blow it up. This rifle is in the 600k serial range. But still when you put it side by side with my one above, they are identical in the way WRA mounted the blocks. The top is the original WWI era WRA picture, edited next to my rifle.

 

[FatBoy]

do you think the recoil pin in the B&W above your rifle was a repair or ??

 

[buffalowinter]

Just thought you might find this interesting. Springfield International with double set triggers.

I modified a Kepplinger double set trigger for a Mauser 98.

An original

 

[cplnorton]

do you think the recoil pin in the B&W above your rifle was a repair or ??

Do you mean the 2nd stock reinforcing bolt? If that is what you are talking about, SA started to put them in 1917. So for that rifle it would have had two bolts for the stock. I forget the serial number exactly, but off the top of my head it was in the mid 600k range.

 

[cplnorton]

Now honestly to me that is really fascinating. I have a real deep admiration now for those rifles of the 20's and 30's. I never knew how advanced those guys were back then till I started to research. In many ways they were much more advanced than we are today. Some of those guys who did custom work to the rifles, were just artists.

For instance your double set triggers. I have mentions of the Marines devising their own version and I would love to see one actually in person. But who knows if any still exist as the documents mention the rifles were torn down for parts in the 1930's. The Marines never bought the International Match. They trialed one, kept it awhile, and then returned it. Complaining the price was too much. I want to say SA wanted like $70 for it. A normal M1903 National Match was usually in the mid $30 range to as high as the mid $40's in the 1930's.

But what is funny after they returned it, they started to build their own version of it. Which they called a Free High Pressure rifle. The name is derived from the Free high pressure heavy barrels they used from Remington and WRA.

But anyways, I think what they did is when they had that one SA International Match. They just studied how it was built and then built their own at the Depot for a cheaper price. In typical Marine fashion.

But I will include a couple pics of some Free High Pressure rifles. Also the mention of the double set triggers produced by the Depot. Somewhere too, I have pics of the Free High Pressure rifles with 10X Fecker Scopes. The Marines bought some 10X Feckers early in the 20's and they were the go to scope on the "Free" rifles. The Marines nicknamed them them Free rifles for short.

 

[buffalowinter]

That's me in the B&W photo. I built the rifle based on info from Brophy's book. I built/modified the double set trigger based on info from the same. The whole thing started when I found the old swiss international plate on eBay.

Hammerli Free Rifle

 

[jbell]

I love post like this, thank you all for allowing me to soak up so much knowledge!

 

[deltawiskey]

This was a really great post, really enjoyed reading it!
Thank you!!
DW

 

[cplnorton]

Buffalowinter, I thought that was a vintage pic. lol

You did a heck of a nice job too on that rifle! I love that style of rifles. Thank you for sharing it with me sir!

 

[cplnorton]

This I believe was the order my rifle was placed on. Also the rifle pictured above with the Marines in France, I believe that rifle was in this shipment as well.

My rifle is a 1909 NM. Which in 1909, a NM was basically just a star guaged barrel and hand selected parts. In 1909 the Marines ordered 600, but it appears it was reduced to 400.

This is also the very first shipment of M1903 rifles to the Marines I can track. There were a few trial rifles that precede this shipment, I can track a couple. But this was for all intensive purposes, was the very first Marine shipment of M1903 rifles.

What the Marines were doing with these rifles was conducting a training course in 1909 at Sea Girth NJ. They bought these 400 rifles with the intent of conducting a large training class at the rifle range there. At this time the Marines were still using the Krag and no one was familiar with the M1903. So they actually had Marines come in from all over to that location, to basically do a familiarization course on the rifle, so they could go back to their perspective units trained prior to the rollout of M1903 rifles in 1910. In 1910 the Marines ordered their first large shipment of 4000 M1903's, which 100 of those were also NM rifles.

But this is the order that I believe my rifle came in, as well as the one pictured in France. So it's interesting to note, if I'm correct, these rifles would have been in the very first Marine shipment of M1903's which were NM, and in 1917 converted to a sniper by WRA. Unfortunately even though I believe this to be correct, without finding a direct serial number hit to a document someday, it cannot be proven they were in this order. But of the available info known so far, it really seems to be the only scenario that fits.

 

[FatBoy]

have you shot the A5? At any distance? I am planning out my next clone/look a like but I have some concerns about how much light the A5/B5 scopes transmit.

 

[cplnorton]

You know to be honest, I thought I would hate the A5 scope when you actually used one. The crosshairs on the A5 are a lot fatter than say a Unertl or a M73B1. But last summer I took every version of the 1903 sniper out and shot them, including this one.

Now I only shot this at a 100 yards and only 3 rounds. But with 1957 Lake City M2, it grouped about 1''. Also when I actually shot it, and got it on target, I loved the fat crosshairs on the A5 scope. It actually ended up as my favorite M1903 sniper to fire out of all them. Which surprised me, because I'm a huge fan of the 1903A1 Unertl Sniper and the Unertl is usually my favorite rifle to shoot.

 

[FatBoy]

That's awesome. MOA out of any original 1903 is great IMO. I may go this route.

Thanks for the insight. Not too many around who have first hand experience in shooting these rifles.

 

[ScharfshutzeK98]

You know to be honest, I thought I would hate the A5 scope when you actually used one. The crosshairs on the A5 are a lot fatter than say a Unertl or a M73B1. But last summer I took every version of the 1903 sniper out and shot them, including this one.

Now I only shot this at a 100 yards and only 3 rounds. But with 1957 Lake City M2, it grouped about 1''. Also when I actually shot it, and got it on target, I loved the fat crosshairs on the A5 scope. It actually ended up as my favorite M1903 sniper to fire out of all them. Which surprised me, because I'm a huge fan of the 1903A1 Unertl Sniper and the Unertl is usually my favorite rifle to shoot.

View attachment 6897119

Nice shooting! I am looking forward to building one of these clones in the future once I am done with the K-98k builds.

 

[pmclaine]

You know to be honest, I thought I would hate the A5 scope when you actually used one. The crosshairs on the A5 are a lot fatter than say a Unertl or a M73B1. But last summer I took every version of the 1903 sniper out and shot them, including this one.

Now I only shot this at a 100 yards and only 3 rounds. But with 1957 Lake City M2, it grouped about 1''. Also when I actually shot it, and got it on target, I loved the fat crosshairs on the A5 scope. It actually ended up as my favorite M1903 sniper to fire out of all them. Which surprised me, because I'm a huge fan of the 1903A1 Unertl Sniper and the Unertl is usually my favorite rifle to shoot.

View attachment 6897119

Not the bow, its the indian........

 

[jamescj]

Great thread! Learned a lot...

 

[five 0]

This I believe was the order my rifle was placed on. Also the rifle pictured above with the Marines in France, I believe that rifle was in this shipment as well.

My rifle is a 1909 NM. Which in 1909, a NM was basically just a star guaged barrel and hand selected parts. In 1909 the Marines ordered 600, but it appears it was reduced to 400.

This is also the very first shipment of M1903 rifles to the Marines I can track. There were a few trial rifles that precede this shipment, I can track a couple. But this was for all intensive purposes, was the very first Marine shipment of M1903 rifles.

What the Marines were doing with these rifles was conducting a training course in 1909 at Sea Girth NJ. They bought these 400 rifles with the intent of conducting a large training class at the rifle range there. At this time the Marines were still using the Krag and no one was familiar with the M1903. So they actually had Marines come in from all over to that location, to basically do a familiarization course on the rifle, so they could go back to their perspective units trained prior to the rollout of M1903 rifles in 1910. In 1910 the Marines ordered their first large shipment of 4000 M1903's, which 100 of those were also NM rifles.

But this is the order that I believe my rifle came in, as well as the one pictured in France. So it's interesting to note, if I'm correct, these rifles would have been in the very first Marine shipment of M1903's which were NM, and in 1917 converted to a sniper by WRA. Unfortunately even though I believe this to be correct, without finding a direct serial number hit to a document someday, it cannot be proven they were in this order. But of the available info known so far, it really seems to be the only scenario that fits.

View attachment 6896925

View attachment 6896927

 

[five 0]

https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/s...-rifle-with-winchester-scope-and-case-3224798
What is your thoughts on this one.

 

[cplnorton]

https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/s...-rifle-with-winchester-scope-and-case-3224798
What is your thoughts on this one.

I was sort of watching that one. I wouldn't have minded seeing that one in person. There were a few things I really liked on that rifle.

The biggest thing is on the Mann Niedner. Is proving a rifle is real. I only know of one tell in the Marine docs of a way to tell a real one. And it would be very hard to see without seeing it in person.

Even though the Marines for sure received a handful of Mann Niedner rifles in 1916 done by Adoph Niedner. Like four or five for the shooting team, which are described in the Niedner shop notes as having the taper blocks, the 150 he did in 1917 for the Marines are not described in detail.

In fact there is nothing written anywhere about those 150 rifles. Other than confirmation that he did the work at Philly, he was paid 1500 dollars and the FBI was concerned that he was a German Saboteur and had sabotaged them.

In 1920 the Mairnes had a document purge and almost all documents on the sniper program were destroyed. The only reason the documents above with the Winchester rifles exist is because of two reasons.

1) WRA kept documents and pictures of the rifles in their archives. The ones they did for the Marines and Army.

2) In 1918, the Army wishing to copy the Marine WRA snipers from 1917, detailed the whole USMC program in correspondence to WRA to make sure WRA copied the program exactly for them.


So if it wasn't for the fact that the Army copied it in 1918, and WRA was a commercial company and kept their own records. Nothing of the WRA snipers that the Marines received in WWI would exist.

On the Mann Niedner, people will make claims they have documents on them, and can prove one is real, and blah blah. They are full of it honestly. I have spent years searching for the Mann Niender docs, and other than finding his shop notes, I have never found any more than a few small mentions during WWI.

Now past WWI, I have documents on them. The first time for sure they start to show up is late 1918. I have 2 pics of them. One in Quantico and one in France. And I have pics and mentions of them in the 1920's through about 1945.

But the Mann Niedner that was built in 1917 by Niedner at Philly. There is just nothing really on those rifles. So no real way to prove one. If someone says they can, ask them to provide the evidence.

The other thing is, I believe most Mann Niedners were actually built by the Marines post about mid 1918. So you have several variations of the Mann Niedner rifles, and a time frame that really exists fro sure from 1916 to 1945. So there are a lot of opportunities for many different variations and different hands in the builds.

It's a nightmare with that many hands and that many years to try to prove one is real by traits alone. There are just too many opportunities for variations.

 

[cplnorton]

The other thing in this. By 1938, the Marines detail that most of the WWI A5 rifles had been broken down for parts as they became unserviceable. So unless they escaped out of the MArines by the 20's I imagine, most ended up scraped.

The Army did the same thing. All were ordered in the late 20's to have the scope and blocks removed. The receivers plugged and turned into standard rifles. Since all were low numbers, many met their fate by being scrapped. As that was the Army policy post about 1928.

That is why these rifles are so incredibly rare. The survival rate was just really low.