M1A Woes

[Mav68erick]

I just got my M1A back from SA for warranty work, it was binding bad while cycling, and wouldnt cycle at all with a NM guide rod in it, as it was so out of line it would cycle half way and stick.

They replaced the op rod and now I can use my Sadlak NM spring guide rod, and I also had them do a Match trigger in it while it was there.

1. The trigger is 1000 times better.

I put my salak mount / NF nxs back on and went to the range, I was hoping for to much when I figured it was gonna still be on paper at 100 yards, it may have been if I left the scope on the rail but I removed both, where the rings are mounted I had to anyways, I cant get to the bolt that holds the dove tail mount in the stripper clip area.

Took it back to 50 yards 4" right 2 " High adjusted, next shot .25 low 3 4 5 shots all touching, I was like yes were onto something! Another 5 shot group all 4 touching, 5 a flyer... grrr. Again another 5 shot group same thing, Im like ok this is good enough im just pulling the last one.

Back to 100 yards, I couldnt get any kind of consistency to save my life elevation would be good 2" right 2 " left I cant keep the scope on target after it settles it goes one way or another after recoil, hold it tight hold it light I just cant get a spot where I can steer it correctly I suppose. It doesnt help that the scope on the lowest rings I could get it still sits high, I got a riser, but the butt stock doesnt sit into my shoulder very well seems like it wants to go under it, and its hard to get it in the right spot because I cant seem to get low enough firing off a bench. I tried raising my bipod up some seems like it only amplifies the probelm even though I can hold it more comfortably.

Im thinking I may need to remount my scope mount, as it says in the insturctions issues of improper installation can cause probems I dont see how, I reinstalled the same way I did when it was knew, and had sub moa groups at 100 yards with the same ammo, one being under .700" ( which I still dont know how thats possible )

So sitting here I pushed down on my barrel and noticed how loose it is in the stock on the forend, the little metal retainer that you cant down over the lower stock when putting it backtogether is just loose doesnt add any sort of support at all, could this cause an issue? should it be snug? Do M1s need to be floated? Because I know JAE offeres some sort of tensioning device on there chasis and I assume this is the area where it attaches.

Or it could just be me, Its hard to try to figure it out without anyone watching or saying hey you're doing this or you;re doing that.

 

[Mav68erick]

Re: M1A Woes

Heres one of my previous groups

Heres some stuff from the range today

50 Yards

Middle is intial zeroing, somehow I dialed to much windage for the 2nd shot. figured everything seemed to be going good maybe a little bit of inconsistency through me.

100 yards, it got to where I just stopped paying attention shit went down hill fast.

a couple 3 shot groups, and 1 missing bullet ( prolly fired from the grassy knoll ..... )

5 shot and a 3 shot

Prolly the only thing close to consistency I got some 308 ppu 168 match, and then some Federal 7.62 match

This group is just like wth the funny thing is the gun jumps right and settles with my looking at the lane to my left ( as I shoot left handed ) but all the shots go right?

And the setup I have

Standard M1A
NM Trigger / Spring Guide
Airbone Rail / Mark4 Med Rings / 5.5x22x50 NF

I feel pretty smooth pulling my trigger, alot better now the stock trigger was so hard to feel when it was going off, I dont feel as though im flinching and off a bag holder her pretty steady and seem to take the recoil fairly well, im just kinda bummed. I know its a semi auto and bug holes arent a reality, but I would hope to get some sort of consistency with some match ammo before I start putting efforts into reloading if my shooting technique is off.

 

[lennyo3034]

Re: M1A Woes

How does it shoot with irons? That may help determine whether or not it's the scope/mount or the rifle.

 

[Mav68erick]

Re: M1A Woes

when I first got it I shot it at 50 with irons, with some steel cased WPA about 60-80 rounds ( I havent shot it with irons since, but I left a paper target tathered in the center about 3-4" of nothingness in the target with some strays here and there. perhaps Next weekend I could just take my rings off, and if I retork them the same I shouldnt have a loss of zero/ as I can still use my irons with my mount. I just cant use them with the scope mounted as the Obj. Lense blocks my view. ( I will be switcing this scope off this as its to big once I build my bolt gun ) and get something more pratical. I figured Id get wnated I really wanted now and use it and worry about it later.

My buddy that swears by iron sights only wasnt able to shoot with me today as he was doing some local 3 gun thing at another range, if he was there I woulda taken my scope off and had him shoot it so I could get some feedback, this guy shoots mosins every weekend hes got no less then 30 of these in his basment all labeled what ammo shot best out of it. Hes a purist = P although he has a couple with some cheepy scopes on it.

 

[alibi]

Re: M1A Woes

How are you getting a cheek weld? More of a chin weld? When was the bore last cleaned? Is the gun properly greased? Gas plug on correctly? Cleaned gas system? What kind of stock is it? Is your sadlak mount fitted to the receiver properly? How much caffeine prior to the range trip?

 

[Michael]

Re: M1A Woes

looks like a normal M1A to me.

 

[wareagle700]

Re: M1A Woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">looks like a normal M1A to me. </div></div>

Yep.

 

[Mav68erick]

Re: M1A Woes

From phone so bare w me

I got a cheek riser. Gun was cleaned prior to shipping it to SA.. gas system cleaned, carbon removed with drill bits/ cleaner. Was a cool day shot about 5-10 rounds let gun sit, barrel never got to hot to touch or hold.


Mounted the mount like I did before, torqued everything with a fat wrench. Scope is perfectly parallel to base via shimself when mounting off of bottom of scope to top of rail. There was very light wind. Maybe I'm expecting to much..I need to get some more federal match ammo because that seems to have shot the best

Sry cant link pic.from phone so I linked it

http://m145.photobucket.com/albumview/al..._n.jpg.html?o=9

I cant see these gaps being typical 1.5-2" at 100yds maybe, again its probably just me

 

[ksthomas]

Re: M1A Woes

Mav68erick,

Looks to me like something has loosened up, or begun making contact somewhere it shouldn't be. I'd take a look at the flash suppressor, as they've always been potential trouble sources in M14s. Assuming that's tight, I'd start taking a look at that op rod. This is another source ofr a great many problems with these rifles. That heavy piece of steel reciprocating back and forth under spring tension, getting it to settle back into the same place every time, yeah, that's a design problem where accuracy is concerned. The hand guard would be another spot to check. On match guns, they need to be permanently affixed, usually done by an epoxy bead along the front surface where it interfaces with the ferrule. And yes, they need to be free floated, in their own way; essentially no contact with the stock, but several pounds of downward pressure applied by the front band. This area needs to be free to vibrate and "return to center" after each shot, but there is, nonetheless, several pounds of pressure here. This area is normally polished bright on match guns, and needs a little grease dabbed on at cleaning.

I'm assuming you've already checked the usual suspects relating to the scope mounting being tight. Also have to remember that the M14 wasn't designed to be an accurate rifle. It was designed to be a combat rifle, first and foremost. Easy to disassemble, easy to clean, rugged and reliable, Most of the accurizing mods that go into these guns, go against that grain, and make them more finicky than their combat cousins. Finding a balance between the two, has always been the challenge with the M14 family.

 

[insight3b]

Re: M1A Woes

One thing that will tighten up the stock at the ferrule(that metal part at the front bottom of the stock) is to remove your trigger group and place some thin cardboard at the feet of the trigger group. Carefully lock the trigger group back down taking great care to not bend the trigger gaurd. Not as good as bedding but an effective way of seeing if your rifle needs bedding. Is it a fiberglass or wood stock? With wood stocks the metal stock liner can become loose and cause erratic groups. You might also try turning the gas system off at the spindle valve and shoot a few groups. Very difficult to remove spent cases with the gas turned off. Just load one round from the mag and gently rap the op-rod handle with a rubber mallet. Did you check to make sure the rifle passed spec with the included kit supplied with the ABN mount? Was the scope mount new when you bought it? If not it may have been modified to fit an out of spec receiver.

 

[Mav68erick]

Re: M1A Woes

The mount was new, it fits great at the stripper guide area no gaps. I think its the Ferrell like mentioned above, its really loose up front. Perhaps its just getting looser there, as it shot better before

 

[bunsen27]

Re: M1A Woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wareagle700</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">looks like a normal M1A to me. </div></div>

Yep. </div></div>

Agreed!

KT gave you some great tips on where to check, but as he emphasized the M1A really is not designed as a precision rifle. You can turn it into one with a lot of time, money, and hair pulling. I've gone that route as far as a JAE G3 with barrel tensioner and adjustable gas plug. I finally came to the realization just to throw it back in the wood stock and shoot it with irons for fun and use my AR-10 for precision work. YMMV

 

[insight3b]

Re: M1A Woes

I would use the supplied kit to make sure the receiver is in spec. It probably isn't in spec but Sadlak can modify the mount to work. Probably be worth it to try a lighter weight scope. Is the stock ferrule moving on the actual stock or is the gas cylinder moving on the ferrule? When you fired it most recently did you shoot it off the bipod or bags? How is the bipod attached? Make sure there aren't any bolts screws etc from the bipod mount contacting the underside of the op-rod or bbl channel.

 

[AK Sgt Maj]

Re: M1A Woes

I don't know how to do the picture thing or I would show my setup. I have a National Match M1A, that I tried using a scope with for years and never could get it to shoot worth a dam, but with irons it did pretty good. I tried those risers and know other people that have tried them and they didn't work. I tried a Karstens Custom Cheek Rest, B model, on another rifle and it worked great, but I didn't want to drill holes in that preatty M1A stock, so I got a used M14 hardwood stock (cheap) mounted the cheek rest and now it is great. If I want to use the irons, I just loosen the rest and lower it all the way down and to put it back, I just go to my mark. Some friends have tried it and the only thing they don't like is how ugly it looks. I got the stock for less than $50 and the M1A is a really tight fit, so I didn't bed it. Have shot it out to 500, on steel and it never misses.

 

[rojkoh]

Re: M1A Woes

Mike has specific notes about the problems of mounting a scope mount made for USGI specs on a receiver that might NOT be made to spec. This is an issue with the current generation of M1A receivers.

Only two receivers I've known that were always right were the Devine Rifles (milled with M14 tooling) and the A.R. Sales receivers. BOTH were made with USGI parts.

For a lot of years, I only used USGI scope mounts (G&H and ART) and never had a problem with these with one exception, the G&H mount were fine with a Leopold 2x7 scope, but trying to zero a super critical scope was impossible. I used up 300 rounds of PMC ball trying to mount a Leopold 3.5x10(1981). Issue was the G&H was 1" to the side of the bore and 2" above it. Tricky but great mount.

 

[rojkoh]

Re: M1A Woes

Good point

 

[Dogtown]

Re: M1A Woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">looks like a normal M1A to me.</div></div>

That's the sad truth.

 

[Mav68erick]

Re: M1A Woes

Shot it off a harris bipod, its mounted via the sadlak mount, I had to dremel out the inside of the stock to mount it flush as it sat higher then the original metal that the sling mount was riveted in with.it sits lower then what was in it before, I think you guys pointed out my issues the ferrel, how ever its spelled. if I grab the end of my flash hider and wiggle I can life the the entire upper assembly out of the lower part of the stock .025 - .030" roughly the ferrel has alot of wiggle in it, it didnt use to be that bad, and I only have about 200- 240 rounds through this.

Every thing on the scope mount is locitited and torqued ( rechecked it once I got back ) and following the instructions with the cam lever, the back of the mount really meshed nice with my stripper guide there was no light or gaps along it, I was surprised usually I get screwed over on things and they dont seem to fit right. I also shot it off some sand bags before I mailed it away when it was really binding bad before they replaced the op rod had to load it 1 round at a time. and at 50 yards with black hills and ppu every round would touch.

I dont expect this gun to be a tack driver but I dont think it would be unrealistic that it should be under 2 moa at 100 yards, im getting sparatic nonsense atm. Ive had under 1.5 at 100 and the under 3/4 posted which was probalby luck but If I can get 1 - 1.5 with handloads or 1.5 with just federal ill be content. But again If I use the scope for my bolt build shooting with iron would be fun I just have a hard time seeing, and shooting papers no fun be nice to have a steel range somewhere.

Another question, the gas plug it keeps coming loose on me! I though the end threads were stripped but it looks like its made that way, my uncles socomII has a different plug seems to be machined better. Someone told me you leave the plug loose to adjust the gas but if its not atleast 1/8 turn past snug its usually about to fall off after im done shooting


Again thx for the feedback

 

[Oneteam]

Re: M1A Woes

Do not leave the gas plug loose. If you are worried about binding put some anti-seize on the threads. There are a lot of moving parts that have to come back to the same spot in order to shoot accurately in an M1A. Mine shoots moa with most bullets but hates PPU, go figure. You have to shoot the same ammo out of it in order to take that out of the equation. Also go over to M14.org and join, there are some very knowledgeable armorer's who can help you.

 

[Mav68erick]

Re: M1A Woes

I know I had purchses PPU Federal Black Hills and some 7.62 match when I got my gun to check what was better out of it. Seems it likes federal better then the rest the black hills is just overpriced in my opinion and I was turned off on the dented up cases. Id be estactic if I could hold moa, looks like Im gonna try to fix this play on the stock, get another 100 rounds of Federal and see if I can get it consistent. Then start loading.

Looks like I just need to show the gun some more love to keep her in line. Also it need to wear the new op rod in some? its alot smoother now that they replace it the original was bent apparently, I thought the op guide thats pinned to the barrel was clocked it was an illusion from a bad op rod.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Re: M1A Woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I cant get to the bolt that holds the dove tail mount in the stripper clip area.
</div></div>

You remove the bolt and go in from the bottom.

The loose stock ferrule is a major problem. The stock needs to add down force to the barrel, 4-5lbs of down force.

Some good diy info here.

http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/

 

[Mav68erick]

Re: M1A Woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: madcratebuilder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I cant get to the bolt that holds the dove tail mount in the stripper clip area.
</div></div>

You remove the bolt and go in from the bottom.

The loose stock ferrule is a major problem. The stock needs to add down force to the barrel, 4-5lbs of down force.

Some good diy info here.

Disregard the cant you quoted me on, its a typo

l

http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/ </div></div>

 

[Heronion]

Re: M1A Woes

Most M1As are about 1.5-3 MOA guns.

 

[insight3b]

Re: M1A Woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bpnelson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most M1As are about 1.5-3 MOA guns. </div></div>

Mine are/were with irons

 

[Mav68erick]

Re: M1A Woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: madcratebuilder</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I cant get to the bolt that holds the dove tail mount in the stripper clip area.
</div></div>

You remove the bolt and go in from the bottom.

The loose stock ferrule is a major problem. The stock needs to add down force to the barrel, 4-5lbs of down force.

Some good diy info here.

http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/ </div></div>


Thx, in regards to the bolt, my scope ring covers the bolt on the rear of the scope mount so I cant take my mount off unless I remove the scope first and then the mount.


1.5-3 doesnt sound that bad if I could get 1.5-2 id be happy but it shot below 1.5 before the ferrel must be the culprit. I remember reading if you can get it to shoot anything under 1.5 dont touch it! right now its just even shotting what I would call a group its just sparatic nonsense. Ill do some research on the M14 forum some

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Re: M1A Woes

This might help you to see why your front band is flopping around.

How to shim gas system

 

[Mav68erick]

Re: M1A Woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fngmike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This might help you to see why your front band is flopping around.

How to shim gas system </div></div>

thanks definetly cleared things up with what they meant about shimming, Think ive found alot of good info on the M14 forum already as well

 

[BCP]

Re: M1A Woes

I would try all the DIY tricks - those groups make me think something is loose - and a proven M1A load from a bagged rest (not bipod). If it still doesn't shoot around 1.5MOA I'd send it back for work.

 

[rojkoh]

Re: M1A Woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: madcratebuilder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I cant get to the bolt that holds the dove tail mount in the stripper clip area.
</div></div>

You remove the bolt and go in from the bottom.

The loose stock ferrule is a major problem. The stock needs to add down force to the barrel, 4-5lbs of down force.

Add downforce on the barrel/gas assembly (if unitized), this is not a free floating barrel. It may help, but it also hurts.

I've discussed this with TRW Ordnance, S and F Arsenal staff as well as various M14 armorers over the years. That one is a hold over from the original '03 rifles and Canadian match rifles (MK4 I think it was).

Want an accurate rifle? Free float the barrel. That way you don't disturb the harmonics of the barrel.

 

[rojkoh]

Re: M1A Woes

Nope, the plug in the gas cylinder is not for gas adjustment. The 14 in a sense is self adapting. The USMC speced the gas plugs to be torqued on (I can look this up if you want), but I never do.

I've seen problems with cross threaded gas plugs and castle nuts.

 

[insight3b]

Re: M1A Woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rojkoh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I cant get to the bolt that holds the dove tail mount in the stripper clip area.
</div></div>

You remove the bolt and go in from the bottom.

The loose stock ferrule is a major problem. The stock needs to add down force to the barrel, 4-5lbs of down force.

Add downforce on the barrel/gas assembly (if unitized), this is not a free floating barrel. It may help, but it also hurts.

I've discussed this with TRW Ordnance, S and F Arsenal staff as well as various M14 armorers over the years. That one is a hold over from the original '03 rifles and Canadian match rifles (MK4 I think it was).

Want an accurate rifle? Free float the barrel. That way you don't disturb the harmonics of the barrel. </div></div>

You don't need down-force from the barrel to the stock. You need up force from the from the front band at the gas cylinder to the stock. When you hook the front band over the stock ferrule there should be noticable pressure to seat the rear of the action into the stock and you should have to apply slight pressure downward on the rear of the action to lock down the trigger guard

 

[ksthomas]

Re: M1A Woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rojkoh</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Want an accurate rifle? Free float the barrel. That way you don't disturb the harmonics of the barrel. </div></div>

Again, this is one of the issues with making an accurate M14 (or M1, for that matter). With the design of these rifles, you're stuck with a large piece of violently reciprocating metal affixed to the barrel; the op rod. There's no real way the barrels can be truly floated, unlike the AR system. Getting everything to return back to it's original location shot to shot, with as nearly the same amounts of pressure or tension is one of the keys to getting these guns to shoot well. It's also why the require such constant and meticulous maintanence and frequent rebuilding. I've seen literally scores of these rifles that would shoot better than MOA routinely, but it took a lot of work to get them there, and even more to keep them there. Someone has already mentioned that the M14s are generally 1.5-3MOA guns, and that's spot on for standard GI spec guns. A properly built M14 type rifle should shoot within these specs. Other than that, accuracy with these guns is kinda like the old high performance race car adage, "speed costs money, how fast you wanna go?" Change that to "accuracy costs money" and you get the idea.

 

[rojkoh]

Re: M1A Woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin Thomas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Want an accurate rifle? Free float the barrel. That way you don't disturb the harmonics of the barrel. </div></div>

Again, this is one of the issues with making an accurate M14 (or M1, for that matter). With the design of these rifles, you're stuck with a large piece of violently reciprocating metal affixed to the barrel; the op rod. There's no real way the barrels can be truly floated, unlike the AR system.

1) would you please talk to Lapua and see if the D46's are made in .309 anymore? CC says they only have .308.

2) In 1976 I was talking to Don Stoehr who was a friend. Don was one of the lead engineers at TRW Ord. he also introduced me to two other TRW Ordies. Don had given me one of the original USMTU guidelines (NOT the photocopied ones) and I read it and read it and read it. I did talk to a couple of people about it including someone from the USMTU. I went back to Don and handed the book to him (open to the page with the untitized assembly) and asked him "what's wrong with this?". He walked over to a rack with some nice bolt action rifles and handed me one. He asked me: What would you do to accurize this rifle? short form is: glass bed it and free float the barrel. He took the rifle, handed me back the book and said "You tell me what wrong". Took me a bit, but I did figure out a way that the handguard/stock ferrule engagement is NOT impinging on the barrel or gas cylinder. true, it's not 100% free floated, but it's better than the unitized assembly. I toss those, especially one I have that was done so badly I had to cut off the gas cylinder because it had gone egg shaped and was leaking gas (and short stroking). Some of the idiots that work on 14 types are downright scary. I'm replaced the cast parts with USGI and I will NOT unitize the gas cylinder. BUT.. Don agreed with the way I came up with and it works very nicely. Trade secret until you know what gets done.

Right now I have 2 sick M1As to deal with and a LARGE amount of ammo testing to do. It's Lapua vs Sierra, Hornady, Nosler and Barnes. I'm also doing some bedding compound testing for a company as soon as the weather breaks.

>Getting everything to return back to it's original location shot to shot, with as nearly the same amounts of pressure or tension is one of the keys to getting these guns to shoot well. It's also why the require such constant and meticulous maintanence and frequent rebuilding.

Done USGi style yes... I don't normally use Fenwall, Devcon or Marine Tex on gas guns. As I've noted several times, my Devine went 2 1/2 barrels without touching the bedding. It lasted.

yes I clean, I simply drop the gas piston out without touching the lock and clean it and the cylinder. I was taught a way to get the M1 and 14 types out of the stock without disrupting or hurting the bedding. It works. I do NOT wet patch a gas gun, something I've seen to much of lately and then the owner can't figure out why it starts short stroking... sigh.

I've seen literally scores of these rifles that would shoot better than MOA routinely, but it took a lot of work to get

Been there since I started using good lots of M118 and the Lapua D46 170 grain in 1976. I had one Devine with the chrome lined bore shooting 1 MOA consistently. he wouldn't let me put on one of the original NM barrels I had. I do a rifle, I typically sent it out with a hand load that I know works in the rifle. The guy with the USGI chrome bore still had it and ammo I loaded for him 30+ years ago (now that's slow fire shooting!). Yep, 170 D46s in M118 cases.


already mentioned that the M14s are generally 1.5-3MOA guns, and that's spot on for standard GI spec guns.

Yep with M118. Most of the team shooters started hand loading or even Mexican Match when M118 went down the tubes when Larry Moore left Lake City. You should know the D46's were considered for M852, but couldn't be touched (they did love the .309 bullet for worn barrels) since it wasn't made in the US.
Issue M14s were 3 to 5 MOA with pre-1980 ball (link pack). that goes to 5-7 inches with a USGI glass stock or link pack. All ball made after 1980 is link pack. Kevin, when I had my class III, I did work on M14s. Had to use Devcon at the time and I did NOT like it. Did not stand up well although I have the new stuff to try. When I did them, I told them flat out to supply the unitized assemblies and Devcon, they did. I won't use either if I don't have to (I don't do mil spec anymore).

A properly built M14 type rifle should shoot within these specs. Other than that, accuracy with these guns is kinda like the old high performance race car adage, "speed costs money, how fast you wanna go?" Change that to "accuracy costs money" and you get the idea.

3 things you should be well aware of:
1) man machine interface, normally known as a proper skill set dating back decades and known to all good shooters. My reading habits and some research has taken me back before WW I. You are aware of McBride, John George, etc etc etc etc. Not to mention Carlos Hathcock.
2) Accurized rifle (properly done)
3) Most accurate ammo available for that weapon, even if it's handloaded. factory ammo is nowhere near the accuracy you could get with good M118 or even better, a properly worked up handload.

Worst of all, I can't believe what some of the loonies are talking about which includes: Lapping the bolt lugs. I'm still friends from the arsenals and I have every NM guideline with the exception of one.. the arsenal guys shake their heads at this lunacy and they haven't bothered to buy the classic for every M1 and M14 type owner (something I've had since 75): "Hatcher's book of the Garand". It's a good education for that type weapon and the strength of the lugs. Take it one step farther with his "Notebook" and it goes back to lug issues with the '03 and 1917.

Sorry Kevin, I am stunned at some of the things I read that people talk about. The M1/M14 type are NOT bolt guns. The bolt engagement is made that way for a reason. This excludes the fact that there is at least one commercial receiver that requires lapping the lugs of a USGI bolt to work, but the USGI bolts are ok for this. Whew..

Most I've written online in a long time.

 

[LRRPF52]

Re: M1A Woes

Good reading here. I call dealing with the accuracy rainbow in the M14 the spiral of doom. Once you flush that toilet, you're into the rabbit hole.

The M14 is an aficionado's rifle for sure. I lived with them for years, day-in and day-out, in several places on the globe.

My current long-range gas guns are all based on AR actions. .75 MOA 5rd groups are a bad day for me with my Bartlein-piped .260 from GAP, so no M14 for me anytime in the near future. Reliability with the M14 is not that great in my experience either, with the exposed bolt design.

The only repeatable and consistent M1A I've seen was a custom job with a 1" bull Krieger barrel all the way to the muzzle. The gas block was cut and dove-tailed, as was a slot for it in the barrel, so no gas block threads at all.

The rear sight ears were milled off, and a section of 1913 rail was permanently attached to the top of the receiver. The barreled receiver was dropped into a McMillan, and bedded.

The customer is happy and giggles every time the rifle is shot, and he is a prominent figure in the firearms community, retired out of Bragg. It's basically an M25 heavy barrel with the dove-tailed gas system. Imagine this with a full 1" bull Krieger all the way to the muzzle:

 

[Tack425]

Re: M1A Woes

Some great information here. As others said chasing accuracy is similar to a dog chasing its tail, sometimes the dog catches it and it sits there like thats it?Nothing else all this chasing and thats it? Other times its round and round and round.

I have a SA Scout with a number of mods in it. What I can remember having done to it is as follows: NM trigger, unitized front band done by SEI, NM guide rod, Tubbs springs, SEI gas plug, Sadlak Ti piston, and prob a couple of other mods. I have 2 stocks for it also one JAE-100 G2 and the oversized walnut.

Now, shooting it: I have noticed the difference in moving to the JAE with bringing in the groups into 1.5MOA on a consistent basis. The JAE is bulky and heavier 1.5LB more than the walnut, but locks into the M1A like nothing else I have held. But in the JAE its a bench gun for sure, thats why I still have the walnut. The unitized front band and gas system helped with accuracy and took the play out of it as you said you have. I would suggest that at a total $60 investment very cheap for M1A mods.

The scope and mount are exactly what others have said. They are finicky and hard to hold zero if you can ever get it to zero. I have a Bassett low mount and a Vortex PST on mine. Love the set up while its in the JAE, not so much in the walnut. You have a nice mount with the Sadlak and it shouldn't be a problem, but 1 thing at a time. A good cheek/chin weld will help when using the glass on the M1A, but shoot with your irons first to make sure its the rifle giving you the headaches and not the mount.

Also shoot one type of ammo (if you arent already doing that). Remain consistent, figure out one thing at a time.

I may have missed your stock type. I found the fiberglass stock that came with the Scout was a POS. Too light weight and loose fitting for any accuracy. Get yourself a tight fitting walnut stock with the metal. Also make sure the op rod, rollers, and springs are well greased. The M1A was meant for grease and not oil. I use the SEI FX7 and it seems to be working well and holding up well for me.

Lastly, follow through on your shots if you aren't doing that. As you know the M1A kicks like a mule and some people flinch anticipating the recoil.

Once you figure it out, the rifle will be something you will love to shoot, like I do. Feel free to PM or email me with any questions, as I rambled somewhat. The M14 Forum is good info too.

Stay safe

Tack

p.s. Check the crown of your barrel. Gas coming out from a dinged barrel crown will almost certainly affect your accuracy.

 

[JoshcBoucher]

Re: M1A Woes

I didn't even read all the replys. I got one, to "start" my Long range odysey. Didn't shoot better than 3 in groups, with my handloads.. It's a great gun. Won't sell mine. BUT it's not my "Shooter" Get a GAP 10. Or a Remmy 5R. You'll be happy, then. I've been "down this trail", and spent lot's of cash. Follow me. The M1A's are a "quirky" rifle Need's lots of attention. Some other rifles don't. DPMS SASS. GAP 10. Remmy 5R, Bolt.TRG-42/22 ETC>

 

[rojkoh]

Re: M1A Woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRRPF52</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good reading here. I call dealing with the accuracy rainbow in the M14 the spiral of doom. Once you flush that toilet, you're into the rabbit hole.

The M14 is an aficionado's rifle for sure. I lived with them for years, day-in and day-out, in several places on the globe.

My current long-range gas guns are all based on AR actions. .75 MOA 5rd groups are a bad day for me with my Bartlein-piped .260 from GAP, so no M14 for me anytime in the near future. Reliability with the M14 is not that great in my experience either, with the exposed bolt design.

The only repeatable and consistent M1A I've seen was a custom job with a 1" bull Krieger barrel all the way to the muzzle. The gas block was cut and dove-tailed, as was a slot for it in the barrel, so no gas block threads at all.

The rear sight ears were milled off, and a section of 1913 rail was permanently attached to the top of the receiver. The barreled receiver was dropped into a McMillan, and bedded.

The customer is happy and giggles every time the rifle is shot, and he is a prominent figure in the firearms community, retired out of Bragg. It's basically an M25 heavy barrel with the dove-tailed gas system. Imagine this with a full 1" bull Krieger all the way to the muzzle:

</div></div>

I do like the M3A stock, I do use them.. however I started with the Devine rifles in 73. By 76 I was shooting everything I could out to 1000 yards with the original USGI NM barrels (went through 2 1/2 with that rifle). Nothing surpasses the quality of the Devine production and I'll buy one anything I find one. You just don't know how to accurize and use the 14 type. they work nicely if done well, have the right skill set and handload. A lot of us out here do.

yes we still shoot sling prone.. it still works fine. PS the 1000 yard shooting was also done with iron sights. Military has been doing it for a lot more years than some of us old timers. I have a friend that shot 198 out of 200 at 1000 yards at Perry with an M1A with the medium NM Kreiger on it. I have two sitting here for my test beds once I burn out the current barrels I'm using for specific testing.

 

[Frank Green]

Re: M1A Woes

The copy of the post I made is below was about a guy having some accuracy issues with a M14 type rifle. If you read it you will see some of the problem areas that need to be addressed on a M1a/M14 to get them to shoot good and consistently etc...

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels



By key holing you mean the bullets are going thru the target side ways? If yes you could have multiple things causing this. Damaged barrel? Damage to the muzzles crown?

Has the flash hider been reamed for proper bullet clearance? If not enough clearance it can cause accuracy problems if really tight the bullet could be hitting the flash hider on the way out.

Flash hider's castle nut to tight? To tight and it will pinch the bore and cause accuracy problems. To loose and the flash hider will vibrate on the barrel and cause accuracy problems.

Is the gun built to National Match specs.? Guess I should've asked this first!

Is the rifles action glass bedded into the stock? If not get it glass bedded by someone who knows how to do them.

Is the gas cylinder and plate unitized (made as one assy.) some get welded together etc....

Do you have a little grease on the gas cylinder plate where it rubs against the stock ferrule? The stock should have tension on it from the gas cylinder plate.

Is the gas cylinder figure 8 nut to tight? When you tighten the figure 8 nut against the gas cylinder it should start to get tight around the 5 o'clock position and you should just be able to with your fingers pinch it down to the 6 o'clock position. If the nut is starting to get tight way earlier than this it will cause the barrel to bow upwards and cause accuracy problems as well.

One test you can do to check to see if the gas system is not causing accuracy problems is to turn the gas system valve to the off position (90 degrees). This way when you pull the trigger the gun will not cycle. You will have to manually pull the op rod back and let it fly forward under it's own weight (basically you turned it into a bolt gun)to chamber/load the next round. By doing this if the gun groups well and consistently there is something wrong with the gas system. First thing to do is to replace the gas piston.

Is the op rod binding? Remove the recoil spring and guide. Tilt the gun up and down and at a certain angle(I forget the angle) the bolt and op rod should move freely with out any help from your hand. If it doesn't something is wrong. I've seen bent op rods and or rewelded op rods that were bad.

Also for proper accuracy and functioning the gas piston should be cleaned regularly to remove a build up of carbon. You can get tools with handles that have the proper size drill bit on them and you use them to scrap out the carbon build up. Creedmoor Sports or Champions Choice should have them. To much carbon build up and it can effect the gas pulse and the bolt could start to move before it should (before the bullet has left the barrel) and this will cause accuracy problems also.

When a M1A/M14 is properly set up they can be great shooting rifles. If not set up properly or are stock GI type guns they can give you fits like you wouldn't believe.

Some of these things you can check yourself. Some by a competent gunsmith. If you are totally lost take the gun to a M14 type match rifle builder and have them look at it.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[OutRider]

Re: M1A Woes

...hells bells, thread is giving me buyer's remourse...

...the old pigs seem to be availabe at prices much less inflated than ARs...

...I recently aquired one at 200 below retail in a shop that has had no ARs for quite some time...and it was still more expensive than an inflated AR...

...now I am trying to determine the correct ring hight for a 50mm scope on an SA base...the guy at the shop told me to use high rings but methinks that would be less than optimal...

...this thread has been very informative...as is the accuracy thread...

 

[Orlando]

Re: M1A Woes

Bone stock M1A,
Surplus German MEN surplus
100 YDS
Scope
Off Bench, front rest

Not match grade but for bone stock rifle and surplus ammo I am happy
M1A's can shoot

 

[rojkoh]

Re: M1A Woes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Orlando</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bone stock M1A,
Surplus German MEN surplus
100 YDS
Scope
Off Bench, front rest

Not match grade but for bone stock rifle and surplus ammo I am happy
M1A's can shoot </div></div>

I have FN, Radway and some DAG around to test for a coming project. Both the FN and German ammo shoot exceptionally well, only trick with the Radway depends on the type of rifle. The Brits tend to use tight bores and bullets are undersized.

To zero in a scope, I was getting 3 MOA with a standard grade sling prone at 100 yards. When I get to serious testing, I will be taking pics. Once I move past the next step of that one, I'll be changing the barrel to a Kreiger and doing the tuning. It's not hard to do *IF* you have patience.

 

[rojkoh]

Re: M1A Woes

Some great information here. As others said chasing accuracy is similar to a dog chasing its tail, sometimes the dog catches it and it sits there like thats it?Nothing else all this chasing and thats it? Other times its round and round and round.

Not at all. It easy if you get the right knowledge to work with which seems to be a problem with some of the things I've seen posted online. Handloading is a large part of the process. First you need to know the rifle, including the rifling of the tube to get a handle on what kind of bullet to start with.

I have a SA Scout with a number of mods in it.

Shortening the barrel on a 14 type is not going to help.


What I can remember having done to it is as follows: NM trigger,

If it's a clean 4.5 lb break.. If your trigger group is commercial.. that can be tricky depending on the heat treatment. USGI's are easy.


unitized front band done by SEI,

Won't go near Smith.


NM guide rod,

Sadlak's a nice unless you have original ones, I have both.


Tubbs springs, SEI gas plug, Sadlak Ti piston, and prob a couple of other mods.

Why? I've used USGI since I started shooting for accuracy in 76. With the gas system, all you have to know is how to "trick" it and it's easy.


I have 2 stocks for it also one JAE-100 G2 and the oversized walnut.

Oversized M14/M1A stocks were copied from the P.J. Wright National Match stocks including the M1A McMillan.

Is it bedded? have you relieved the ferrule?


Now, shooting it: I have noticed the difference in moving to the JAE with bringing in the groups into 1.5MOA on a consistent basis.

With what ammo? A good NM M14 type should shoot sub minute with ease.


walnut. The unitized front band and gas system helped with accuracy and took the play out of it as you said you have. I

Old Fallacy.. this was originally done with the Springfield '03,especially for the '03A4 since there were no heavy barrels, they tried to make the light barrels more rigid by impinging on them. This was done commercially for years after WWII including the Winchester Model 54 which is a very nice rifle, but not quite as good as a pre 64. t was then found that free floating the barrel is better, but the military was still hung up in old ways. There were arguments about it at TRW when the M14 NM was being developed.

I had long conversations with one of the lead engineers at TRW Ord about it. Don was kind of Zen like about it and forced me to figure it out... You can "free float" the barrel (as much as possible with the gas system/op rod (yes Kevin I know) and it helps. It'll come out sooner or later in print.



The scope and mount are exactly what others have said. They are finicky and hard to hold zero if you can ever get it to zero. I

Not with a good scope and not Chinese Crude.


have a Bassett low mount and a Vortex PST on mine. Love the set

The Bassett low mount covers the iron sights! It helps to understand Murphy's law... if it can break it will at the worst possible moment. Never cover your iron sights, bad tactically.
I also use the Bassett, but I am using the high on and I like it.

a problem, but 1 thing at a time. A good cheek/chin weld will help when using the glass on the M1A, but shoot with your irons first to make sure its the rifle giving you the headaches and not the mount.

For the best scoped stock, try the McMillan M3A, it's NICE.


Also shoot one type of ammo (if you arent already doing that). Remain consistent, figure out one thing at a time.

Try working up a load for your rifle the right way, you'll find better accuracy.

I may have missed your stock type. I found the fiberglass stock that came with the Scout was a POS. Too light weight and

McMillans are the finest made glass stocks available. USMTU (or AMTU or AMU) uses the McMillan M3A. They were playing with mine at Perry last year (I had the scope off and they wanted to try the iron sights).



rollers, and springs are well greased. The M1A was meant for grease and not oil. I use the SEI FX7 and it seems to be

only thing I've greased on a 14 or 14 type in the past 40 years is the bolt roller. Grease collects dust/dirt and can freeze depending on what you use. Lubraplate is the worst.

I've shot my Devine in 100+ days with strong wind blowing (Typical High Desert) and in the snow. Two weeks ago, I testing something and it was in the 20's with wind chill factor going.

As you know the M1A kicks like a mule and some people flinch anticipating the recoil.

You're kidding right? Try a Trapdoor Springfield carbine. If you shoot the rifle ammo although the Carbine ammo is bad enough, you'll understand kick..

Common solutions: Google Champion's Choice shooting supplies in Tenn, good people and have a nice shooting coat for $65. If you try the McMillan M3A, between the mass of the stock (it's not light) and the cross section of the butt, shooting M1A and M14s are basically nicer than shooting a 30-30 94.



questions, as I rambled somewhat. The M14 Forum is good info too.

Right with people that want to lap the lugs on their bolts trying to get more accuracy instead of hand loading. Not good. Only person I respect that posts is Gus Fisher.

p.s. Check the crown of your barrel. Gas coming out from a dinged barrel crown will almost certainly affect your accuracy.


How do you ding a crown that has a flash suppressor? I do wonder about that one. If you're talking cleaning the barrel:
1) get a one piece coated cleaning rod (Dewey's are nice)
2) Get the FS guide fro Champion's choice, because it handles both standard and NM grade FS(s) and it's cheap. I always keep several around and I don't take the FS off to clean the barrel.
Haven't since I first shot a 14 (actually 2 of them) in 69. Loved the NM with a good lot of M118.

 

[rideHPD]

If this has been addressed, my apologies, I don't have the time to read through all the good material everyone has posted. You mentioned that the rifle could was not cycling with the NM guide rod; was that the case for the .6"ish group you posted? If so, is it possible that you weren't driving the rifle through the full recoil impulse of the semi-auto action? Did the rifle essentially function as a bolt gun? Maybe one of the more M1A familiar users will comment on this, but if the action wasn't running, could that have bypassed its effect? You could try loading 1 round at a time and removing part of the recoil impulse.