Gunsmithing Machining Rem 700 Action.

[beermj1]

Maybe this is the wrong site to ask this question, but I was wondering if anyone here has ever made their own Rem 700 action.

I have experience working in a machine shop, so I can't imagine that it would be extremely difficult. I'm just not really sure what kind of steel to use. I know Surgeon uses 4340 steel. Are there any other options? I'm used to working with D2, would that be an option? Would it be too hard after heat treating?

I'm throwing around the idea of starting up a business and I'm looking for information. I realize I would need an FFL to sell actions. I also realize that name is a huge factor in price. So, what would be a competitive price? I see factory Rem 700 actions sell for around 400, and custom actions sell for 900+.

I'm really sorry if this is the wrong site for these kind of questions, but any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Shooter21]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

this shall be Epic

 

[GasLight]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

what kind of equipment do you have?

I have thought long and hard about making an action, the biggest problem that keeps getting me is cutting the bolt lug races and/or the locking lugs.

Overall it isn't rocket science, but somethings to think about: What will your action offer that can't be found currently? What is your target price, and can you make any money at that price?

 

[bcpdshooter]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

I am not a machinist but i expecting a lawton model 7000 action which is a rem 700 clone.
when ordering i had the option of having it made in stainless steal or chrome molly.
when i asked the difference as far a performance the answer i got was the would be no difference in performance but the chrome molly would be the better choice if i was going to coat the rifle.
if i was planning on keeping it in the white then stainless steal.

 

[LRI]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

D2 is not the material of choice for an action.

As you are certainly aware, its not the most user friendly material out there.


4340 is pretty good and for SS I like 15-5ph solution annealed. Harden your action to the low 40's and keep the bolts around 35. They need to give a bit otherwise you wind up with stress fractures and eventual trips to the ER.

Take your lug surface area contact seriously. Even the most robust action won't tolerate more than about 6,000psi of ring pressure. Compare an action to a 10,000+psi high pressure vessel fitting used in the petroleum industry. Our little actions are quite "petite" by comparison.

Your biggest challenge will likely be cutting the helical ramps and the primary extraction cam. Remington does a poor job IMHO. Think Rigid Tapping with a G10 offset. . .


Machining threads with no taper also seems to be an ass kicker for some. FWIW I don't suggest using a lathe. There's better options.


If it's a custom action the raceways should be EDM'd IMHO. Broaches are cool, but spendy and you'll wait a year to get one likely. You can wire out a lot of receivers in that time.

Use a truncated lead thread.

Pin your lugs or integrate them in the action.

You CAN machine an action without an FFL legally. You'll have some paperwork to do prior. You can never sell it or will it off to a family member. Essentially it'll go in the casket with you when it's your time.

Sell it and it's a trip to the butt house if you get caught. Not worth it.

Make your bolts from solid bar stock. If your really a bad azz you can friction weld the handle to the body to save some spindle time.

Pushfeed actions are a time a dozen these days. A nice control round feed is the better route IMHO. Certainly more work, but so much nicer/safer.

Good luck. Fun stuff!

C.

 

[bcpdshooter]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

my lawton 7000 action was $875 with recoil lug and one piece base.

If you are planning to get into the market i think i would start small and build a few and get them on shooting lines/matches in the hands of some guys who do well in matches.

I would also see if i could target the prices somewhere between the $400 and $900 range.

1 this would get the action out there and 2 you would be targeting the shooters that don't have the money to start a build on $1400 actions.

Just an idea like gaslight said the action would have to have something that the others do not.

 

[Massoud]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

Please do not make another 700 action. There are probably 8 companies that make Rem clone actions, and another 4 or more gunsmiths that have their own Rem clone that is built by one of the 8 and put their name on it.

If you really want to do an action, there's way in which you can bring something to the table, but a Rem clone isn't one unless you have some really ingenious little feature you plan on adding. Or unless you do it out of Titanium.

Regardless, building an action is a serious endeavor and it appears, though I could be wrong, that you may not have the technical knowledge necessary. I would strongly suggest a long list of books starting with Stuart Otteson's, "The Bolt Action" and hitting up Dan Lilja's technical articles on his website.
Good luck,
Justin

 

[beermj1]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

wow, thanks already! I have access to a manual bridgeport mill, umm, i want to say 5 foot lathe, surface grinders and an edm. We also have a guy that does wire cutting for us. obviously if i send something to get wire cut it's going to raise overhead, but i think anything i would have a need to wire cut i should be able to edm. I'm not too familiar with the edm, but my dad is (family business with a machine shop). I'm currently trying to convince my dad to buy a small cnc mill.

My thought was custom actions that don't cost an arm and a leg. I have lots of projects that I want to do, but custom actions are expensive. I want to focus on quality, affordable price and precision. I guess quality and precision go together. Right now, I'm thinking side job that could ultimately turn into a full time job.

I picked the 700 action, because it's what I know. I'm not really opposed to other styles, I'm just not familiar with them. I was also thinking of other projects on down the road. Along with parts for the actions, maybe making my way into AR-15 and AR-10 receivers and parts. Barrels maybe a bit out of my league for a while, though.

I was thinking also, eventually working my way into building custom rifles and maybe even developing custom ammo for each based off of the shooter's need. Not as something to continually manufacture, but something to develop along with the rifle. So, when you buy a rifle you get an accurate rifle, built to your needs and the recipe for reloading ammo yourself.

Those were just thoughts that I had.

Thank you for the help you've already provided. I hope this post can keep going to give me more ideas and a better picture as to where I can or should go with this.

 

[LRI]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

This isn't meant to be rude. It's just a dose of reality.

You may be suffering from what I call "spectators arrogance."-meaning, "Hey, I can run a mill, I could do that."

And you may very well be able to. I built a clone of an Anschutz 54 action on a 1947 J head bridgeport once.

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Once</span></span> being the word to pay attention to.

There's a big difference between building one action and building 75+ a month that all function, look the same, and deliver the performance levels demanded by today's consumer. Glen Harris has been making receivers for over 20 years. He's owned two successful company's.

Jerry Stiller has been at it about the same I suspect. Then there's the BAT boys, and the rest.

Jim Borden has forgotten more about making guns than most will ever know.

A Kitumura MyCenter4 with all the wigits is going to cost you almost $200K by the time its delivered and you tool it up, gas up the coolant, pay the riggers, electricians, and the bottles of Rogain and hair dye your going to need to avoid baldness/gray hair as you get it operational. There's no such thing as "plug and play when it comes to high end CNC's.

One Horn Solid carbide, through coolant insert thread mill tool holder costs over $600.00 with a pack of inserts. Better double check those offsets and G90's vs. G91's!

Crash one of those and your bottom line erodes instantly.

Can you set up an A axis to run in IPM or Radians per minute and still be synchronized to the X, Y, and Z? Better know how to do that as it's going to have a big effect on how the primary extraction cam looks when your done.

Nevermind the nearly $50,000 in computer, software, and training to learn to use the stuff. Cativa, ProEngineer WF, or Solid works is what you'll need for design. Some are capable of generating code. That's only part of it. Then you need the post processors to spit it out in a format that won't send your machine into a Tourette like state or friction weld the spindle to the table.

1500 inch per minute rapid rates are nothing to be cavalier about

Keep in mind there's no experience yet with any of this. <span style="font-style: italic">That never comes cheap.</span>

Just being real. Unless you can honestly look at all this and say, "I've got it licked" I'd encourage you to consider another avenue for going broke quick. To hit the price point your after it will take some serious equipment running two shifts and spitting out actions by the chord. All the stuff I mentioned above is just a starting point of what it takes. Material selection, shipping, quantity, staffing, and every other little annoyance associated with business ownership will also come into play.

As I said, there's a reason the big guys are successful these days. They have the experience you don't have and none of it was gifted to them by a rich uncle.

Also remember that the market will only bear so much consumption so temper that against your enthusiasm. Cabellas will likely never stock boutique custom actions. Not unless they open a full gunmaking department and that isn't likely either as it's a cash sink hole.

Keep it real, LOL

C

 

[GasLight]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

What Chad says is very true, it might seem easier than it is right now. I would suggest this, make an exact copy of a Remington 700, don't worry about the bolt, just duplicate the action. Do it with aluminum or whatever, then you can just scrap it when done. When you get done with that, you will have a great idea what will be involved in producing your own action. When you established that you can actually produce an action, then you can start thinking about materials and how to produce quantity with consistancy. This is likely going to mean $$$ in machines capable and tooling.

I love to see the desire, and remember we all start somewhere. Don't give up on it. This is a lot like shooting, until you get some time on the machines, you won't know what you need or what it will take...

 

[damoncali]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

I used to work in the aerospace business where we had huge budgets, top of the line software, and mills bigger than my house. The thought of designing and building an action from scratch without someone with boatloads of experience watching over me scares the heck out of me. There are a lot of places to go wrong, the machinging is complex, the tolerances are tight, and the consequences of failure are grave. It's really a process best left to professional teams with engineers, equipment, and skilled technicians.

Then again, if everyone thought like that, we'd still be chucking rocks.

 

[CS223]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

I'll toss this out there "FWIW".

Mark Serbu has been building the BFG 50 50 cal. rifles for more than 10 years. I've been to his shop on more than one occasion. His primary & only CNC machine at the time was a Fadal 4020. His action is unique, robust & simple in design and I suggest you look at one if you get a chance. Far from what would be considered a "precision" action design at least as compared to the status quo.

Likewise the late Klaus Horstkamp of State Arms built am equally simple yet very robust single shot .50 cal. rifle.

The machinist that built the first 20mm rifle prototypes for Anzio Ironworks is a personal friend of mine, the entire prototype gun was built on manual machines including a good bit of grade 5 aka 6AI4V titanium work.

Dave Moore of Spider Firearms aka Ferret 50 was a Chrysler mechanic before getting into the gun business. I remember his very first prototype and being on the range when he fired it. It was crude in appearance, nothing pretty about it but it survive proof testing and continued to shoot without incident. Dave jumped in the business with both feet, learned CNC literally from scratch when his Haas machine arrived.

Hell I've even seen a .50BMG built on a surplus Enfield action granted the action itself basically served as the fire control and the bolt lugs & receiver didn't take any of the actual load.

Point being, it can be done, you don't "have" to be a rocket scientist but it helps if you at least know one. Metallurgy, a qualified heat treater, your ability to test and confirm proper heat treatment, make precision measurements are all important qualifications, more so than $250k of high tech machinery. You cannot take someone's word when it comes to something potentially deadly. You have to confirm what they are telling you is true & confirm your design data.

Some people have the mechanical aptitude to design & build things, they know to ask the right questions and get the right data before they hurt themselves or someone else. Some folks can't build a birdhouse from a kit. All that has to be taken into consideration but don't let someone tell you that you need a PhD and $250k just to think about it.

It's that whole banana thing again.....

 

[Mark Housel]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

Listen to Mr. Dixon.

One of our fellow students is in the process of making a custom Mauser action.

He's spent many many weeks/months at it and was a skilled machinist when he began.

He also had access to the specialized equipment to machine the bolt raceway at Wells Sport shop here in town.

He did a real nice job turning that big rod of steel in to a rifle action. His first one looked just like other custom Mauser actions I've seen,

Having made a (very trivial by comparison***), Ruger 10-22 action from a block of cold rolled steel myself, I certainly wouldn't try anything beyond that myself.






*** It's a f'n hollowed out square block with a couple holes and slots.
www.flickr.com/photos/17795349@N08/sets/72157625572788736

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

Answering the original question...

http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=3;t=11493

Oddly enough, this is something I have been working on myself. Not building, but modelling, teaching myself how to use a CAD/CAM program.

You might be interested in something like Alibre if you want to mess around with something professional grade on the cheap. The personal edition is stripped down but still lets you learn.

Note that solidworks and similar are pretty much industry standards, though, from what I understand. The models that I did in my thread linked in my sig about the bolt knob are done in alibre.

 

[Massoud]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

I think CS223 has made a very good point. Building rifle actions isn't really that magical. Not much has changed in over 100 years. You don't need a single piece of cnc equipment to make an action (making many is a different story).

I hate to see guys get intimidated by the level of equipment some shops have and the engineering jargon thrown around on the net. I stated previously that this is basically the reason I like the Midwayusa videos on youtube. Regular guys can work on and even make guns. They are not Ferraris, more like Model T's (if that).

However, as mentioned, do your homework, learn what steels are normally used (4140 or 4340), their heat treat condition, learn about shear area and bearing area, and the safety features other manufacturers have incorporated into their designs.
Justin

 

[cordovan]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

This forum: http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?s=18f994e3fcecf061543cee18c9777be8;act=SF;f=30 will be a good resource for you to check out. Many members there actively build their own actions; benchrest, remington clones, etc. There is a lot of tallent on that forum.

Steel selection is chrome moly (4140, 4130) or stainless (17-4PH is worth looking in to). Most people have the raceways done using wire EDM. That or go the old fashioned way, drill and ream then use a series of broaches. These days, wire EDM seems easier.

If you look at a 700 reciever, the cuts are made to be simple and efficient with standard tooling to keep manufacturing costs down. Get the machining operations in correct sequence and you should be fine.

I would think the biggest obstacle to building actions is shop efficiency to make the final product cost competitive. Most guys have gone to big CNC machines to whip them out as quickly as possible. Spending the time on a mill to make an action (after the EDM of raceways) will bite fairly heavily into your profit margin.

As a one off to tell people you made a couple actions / rifles from scratch, well that would be priceless!

 

[mike4764]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

I would start by building custom .50 bmg actions. There is a good market for quality actions that dont take 2 years to get and cost $2,000. Mcmillan actions are the most popular on the competition circuit. Build a comparable rifle for $2,000-$2500 and you will sell a ton. Win a match and you will be all set.
I shoot a State Arms bench gun. If you have a standard lathe and mill you will have no problem building and action like that.
I say do it and good luck.

 

[beermj1]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

Thanks to everyone who gave me ideas and information. I don't at all expect to someday become the next remington, or anything like that. Thanks for the link to the other forum. I'll have to check that out. Stuck on duty today, so maybe i'll spend some time there. A .50 bmg build sounds interesting. Maybe someday...

I didn't intend to come off like I know everything, or have it all figured out. I really don't know a whole lot about building actions, at all.

Any more info or advice will be appreciated. Thanks again.

 

[CS223]

Re: Machining Rem 700 Action.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mm3beer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Any more info or advice will be appreciated. Thanks again. </div></div>

There are a few books/plan sets out there if you want to get your <span style="text-decoration: line-through">feet wet</span> fingers oily.

Falling Block action

Some google digging will find you the Maadi Griffin .50 plans and there is one other .50 cal plan set out there too. You can scale the action back for smaller calibers, you might consider building a .22LR to build your skill set before trying something larger caliber.