Machinist Mondays

[Defiance Machine]

We're going to start backup with #MachinistMondays on our social media (although we're posting this up on a Thursday, lol), and we thought we'd share here as well with some recent additions to the shop as we continue expanding to meet increasing demand.

The Nakamura NTRX Mill-Turns have been working out so well, we've just moved in #5. These machines are the top of the line and allow us to machine critical components in less operations, often only one. This helps us to produce the most precise actions we've ever made.

Kitamura also makes some of the best milling machines out there, and we've used them to make actions since day one. This new compact model, is small in size and huge on performance. It's a nice upgrade for our scope mounts and small parts area, that also gives us more room on the floor to expand. We're installing a twin spindle 4th axis rotary table, so we can increase production and quality, while still offering custom options.

 

[ShtrRdy]

I don't know what all that means but it sounds great!

 

[tuckybill]

Instead of moving these fancy TVs and coffee machines around you should be on the shop floor making actions!

Ya'll need to make a EXACT copy of the Remington 40x rimfire with the clip/magazine floorplate where you can put it into any 700 SA stock.

I just thought I would be the first one to post that.

 

[missed]

That's awesome, my old ass Hurco's and Okuma are envious.....

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

A lot of guys will geek out over that bad ass machining center, but that Versa Lift!!!!!

 

[Average guy]

Keep the posts coming. I love seeing behind the scenes

 

[TACC]

Great to see what is going on

 

[Defiance Machine]

That's awesome, my old ass Hurco's and Okuma are envious.....

We've got Okuma as well, and some of the older machines still do a great job.

 

[Defiance Machine]

Instead of moving these fancy TVs and coffee machines around you should be on the shop floor making actions!

Ya'll need to make a EXACT copy of the Remington 40x rimfire with the clip/magazine floorplate where you can put it into any 700 SA stock.

I just thought I would be the first one to post that.

Annnnd I spit out my coffee... lol

 

[MDT_Josh]

Keep on killing it guys! Love seeing different machine shop setups and machines arriving <3

- Josh

 

[Mech Eng]

Man those look pretty!!!

 

[Tokay444]

Could have had a REAL Integrex.

 

[missed]

Ive got Okuma as well, and some of the older machines still do a great job.

I have a couple of old box way Hurco's that are super heavy and rigid, just slow as hell. Same with the old Okuma. But we mainly do prototyping, one offs, and other random work. Accurate and slow is fine. I still want a new 5 axis like a Grob.....

 

[kyzim311]

I love seeing these machines, I have an Integrex really close to my desk at work. Is it fun to see what it can do. Plenty of 5 axis machines around as well, but they have nothing on a Integrex style machine.

 

[Spartan67]

Happiness is measured to 5 places!!!! Great looking rig!

 

[Defiance Machine]

Today's #MachinistMonday topic:
"What process difference keeps headspace guaranteed tolerances vs say the Deviant?" - soflo_impact (Instagram)

Great Question:
Since Day 1, Defiance has used Kitamura 5 axis mills to machine the final two operations on the Rebel and Deviant bolts. These mills are built heavy duty allowing us to machine pre-hardened steels with ease and accuracy. With laser tool setters and electronic probes for locating the parts in all 5 axes, they are indeed accurate. That being said, the Deviant and Rebel bolts require multiple operations across several machines to achieve the final shape and dimensions. The back of the locking lugs and the bolt face are machined in different machines with different tools. This process allows us to machine 10,000’s of bolts, all within a couple thousands of an inch of each other. But the bolt is only half of the headspace measurement, there are still the receiver dimensions. Headspace tolerance for most cartridges is only +/- .002”.

Our newer Nakamura NTRX mill-turn machines are basically a twin spindle lathe with a 5 axis mill inside. There’s not much that we can’t do with these machines, and they are incredibly accurate. These machines manufacture the Tenacity, anTi, anTi X, and Ruckus bolts. We load a 6’ bar of steel and lathe-turn and mill entire bolts in one operation until that bar is consumed. Then we load another bar. The program machines the bolt in sections and pulls more bar out of the spindle as needed. After each pull, we use an electronic probe to locate critical features within .0001” before machining the next feature. This is how we can hold .0005” tolerance on the bolt and guarantee +/- .001” on the bolt/receiver assembly.

What does all this mean? We prefer to machine parts in as few operations as possible. It’s just good machining practice and lends itself to a higher degree of precision. Does “guaranteed headspace” mean the rifle will be more accurate than one without? Absolutely not.

Guaranteed headspace means these actions are more consistent with each other. This helps rifle builders have a more streamlined process. A rifle with a properly fitted barrel can achieve world-class accuracy, regardless of the headspace dimension.

 

[toader]

WOO!!!

 

[Wannashootit]

After each pull, we use an electronic probe to locate critical features within .0001” before machining the next feature. This is how we can hold .0005” tolerance on the bolt and guarantee +/- .001” on the bolt/receiver assembly.

Interesting...
How does tool wear factor into this- guessing inserts are changed out automatically based on a schedule before it can become an issue?
These types of tolerances with automated machinery is fascinating to this old manual machine dinosaur...

 

[kyzim311]

I am sure they will answer how they do it, but I have seen plenty of ways around the tool wear problem.

1. They talk about probing already, you can do a "pre-cut" to see what dimension the tool is actually cutting to. Example would be make a cut 0.010" from final dimension, then probe it. you can then make your final cut using this information.

2. Use the same tool for the critical features. Tool wear will be minimal within the same part as long as you are using the correct setup, so it becomes a question of fixturing and machine accuracy.

3. Feedback loop. They could measure the dimension of the last part and feedback the correct offset to the machine to keep the parts in spec.

There are more ways to do this, but I have seen these in action. There are pros and cons to each.

 

[Defiance Machine]

That’s the best strategy right there.
Congratulations on another cool machine! Nakamura is a great machine. I have only used the twin turret models but that one looks very cool!
Do you have bar feeders set up on that also or does that not pay off for your application?
Thanks for sharing!

We aren't running a bar feeder on the Nakamura's because a 6' bar runs for quite awhile already, and they take up a lot of space that is better served with other machines running.

 

[Defiance Machine]

Interesting...
How does tool wear factor into this- guessing inserts are changed out automatically based on a schedule before it can become an issue?
These types of tolerances with automated machinery is fascinating to this old manual machine dinosaur...

Some tools are changed regularly on a schedule, and also tolerances and surface finish are constantly monitored.

 

[Highbrass]

You obviously know your machine tools or you have a good salesman. Kitamura are sticklers for every detail on their machines. Every bolt and screw has a washer. Possibly some of the most accurate and dependable CNC mills available. Nakamura makes some really wild machines lots of processes on a single setup. The Citizen Co. (same people that make the watches) have some Swiss type CNCs that I have seen run as a lights out operation. Good stuff you guys have there!

 

[Defiance Machine]

Machinist Monday Question: "Tight Tolerances, how tight?"

tolerance
noun
tol·er·ance \ ˈtä-lə-rən(t)s \
: the allowable deviation from a standard
especially : the range of variation permitted in maintaining a specified dimension in machining a piece

clearance
noun
clear·ance \ ˈklir-ən(t)s \
: the distance by which one object clears another or the clear space between them

The terms “tolerance” and “clearance” are both important but are sometimes mistakenly interchanged.

Nominal dimension is the exact dimension that a part is designed to. An engineer will decide how much tolerance (or variation) will be allowed and whether it will be allowed to be both larger or smaller than nominal or just vary in one direction. This controls how the variation will affect function.

A bolt action consists of a bolt that fits into a receiver and must be able to freely move fore and aft as well as rotate. Clearance between these parts is necessary but excessive clearance will negatively affect the accuracy of the rifle. Benchrest rifles will typically have the least amount of bolt clearance. Hunting rifles and tactical rifles will have more clearance to allow reliable operation under varying conditions such as dust, rain, snow, and ice.

Most Defiance actions are made with either .002” or .005” nominal clearance when the bolt is locked up with an additional .001” in the center section of the bolt for reliable cycling. The Rebel, Deviant, Ruckus, and anTi X are available with either a .697” or .700” bolt that fit into a .702” hole in the receiver. (And .747” or .750” that fit into a .752” receiver). The Tenacity and anTi are only available with .697” or .747” diameter bolts.

How important is bolt clearance? It is very important and that can mean a very tight-fitting bolt for a target shooter or a reasonably tight-fitting bolt with ample clearance for a duty rifle.

The Defiance way is to give our customers options, and bolt clearance is no exception.

 

[Mech Eng]

I really like this forum as a former tool maker/prototype machinist to now being a engineer I love watching stuff being machined and the engineering behind it.

 

[wildcats]

We need a CT size action.1.45 --1.60 Dia., 9.5 -10" long with a Cheytac bf and Lapua bf. 1.250 barrel tenon both single shot and repeater .
775- .800 bolt dia,m16 mini extractor, integral lug,30-60 min integral base,load port 4.00 min....think i covered everything.

Name for action, The "'HAMMER"

 

[Totoro]

WOW!

I've only had the privilege to walk through 2 other facilities with that much tooling and equipment to turn hunks of metal into intricate pieces.

One at Boeing and the other at Lockheed Martin.

Keep up the great work!

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Machinist Monday Question: "Tight Tolerances, how tight?"

View attachment 7847651

tolerance
noun
tol·er·ance \ ˈtä-lə-rən(t)s \
: the allowable deviation from a standard
especially : the range of variation permitted in maintaining a specified dimension in machining a piece

clearance
noun
clear·ance \ ˈklir-ən(t)s \
: the distance by which one object clears another or the clear space between them

View attachment 7847652

View attachment 7847653

The terms “tolerance” and “clearance” are both important but are sometimes mistakenly interchanged.

Nominal dimension is the exact dimension that a part is designed to. An engineer will decide how much tolerance (or variation) will be allowed and whether it will be allowed to be both larger or smaller than nominal or just vary in one direction. This controls how the variation will affect function.

View attachment 7847658

A bolt action consists of a bolt that fits into a receiver and must be able to freely move fore and aft as well as rotate. Clearance between these parts is necessary but excessive clearance will negatively affect the accuracy of the rifle. Benchrest rifles will typically have the least amount of bolt clearance. Hunting rifles and tactical rifles will have more clearance to allow reliable operation under varying conditions such as dust, rain, snow, and ice.

Most Defiance actions are made with either .002” or .005” nominal clearance when the bolt is locked up with an additional .001” in the center section of the bolt for reliable cycling. The Rebel, Deviant, Ruckus, and anTi X are available with either a .697” or .700” bolt that fit into a .702” hole in the receiver. (And .747” or .750” that fit into a .752” receiver). The Tenacity and anTi are only available with .697” or .747” diameter bolts.

View attachment 7847666

How important is bolt clearance? It is very important and that can mean a very tight-fitting bolt for a target shooter or a reasonably tight-fitting bolt with ample clearance for a duty rifle.

The Defiance way is to give our customers options, and bolt clearance is no exception.

View attachment 7847663

@308pirate is gonna need a rag to clean himself up after this post….

 

[forthehunt]

Cool thingamabobs. Now get back to work, maybe design and make a prefit long action with a modified bolt so I can make myself a 300PRC, and swap the barrel and bolt and shoot 223.

Big fan. Have your Deviant GA Hunter in a heavier style 7RM all rounder.

 

[308pirate]

@308pirate is gonna need a rag to clean himself up after this post….

There's quite a few who will not understand the difference even after that simple explanation.

Just like there are a shitload of people who don't know how to measure runout and don't know the difference between circular (simple) runout, total runout, total indicator reading, and the "total indicator runout" term which is doesn't exist in ASME Y14.5 (the final word in dimensioning and tolerancing in the US) .

 

[Halfnutz]

@Defiance Machine

Do you or the installer utilize a Laser Interferometer? Most of the machine tool builders do this at thier factory but not at installation. I think very few shops do this ever.
On a 3 axis machine I will on a rare occasion find one axis that is within tolerance on positioning accuracy when checking with the laser.
Do you utilize a Ball Bar at installation and periodically?

I'm mostly curious which industries are adopting the practices.

Nice machines, They should give excellent service.

 

[gopherslayer]

I really like this forum as a former tool maker/prototype machinist to now being a engineer I love watching stuff being machined and the engineering behind it.

Same here! Well not exactly. I skipped the engineer part and went right to internet expert. Cuts down on my student loan debt. I do miss the tool and die shop.

 

[Surly]

That forklift though...

 

[Mech Eng]

Same here! Well not exactly. I skipped the engineer part and went right to internet expert. Cuts down on my student loan debt. I do miss the tool and die shop.

No student loan debt for me either I paid for school straight up and it amazed me when I went back to school how little they teach engineers about manufacturing like tolerance stack up or the best one "How to design for manufacturing".

 

[LeftyJason]

Keep on killing it guys! Love seeing different machine shop setups and machines arriving <3

- Josh

WOW!

I've only had the privilege to walk through 2 other facilities with that much tooling and equipment to turn hunks of metal into intricate pieces.

One at Boeing and the other at Lockheed Martin.

Keep up the great work!

If you haven't checked it out yet it's worth it to check out NYCCNC shop tours. All kinds of shops including Area 419 twice. (Playlist linked)

 

[Jigstick]

Instead of moving these fancy TVs and coffee machines around you should be on the shop floor making actions!

Ya'll need to make a EXACT copy of the Remington 40x rimfire with the clip/magazine floorplate where you can put it into any 700 SA stock.

I just thought I would be the first one to post that.

 

[gopherslayer]

No student loan debt for me either I paid for school straight up and it amazed me when I went back to school how little they teach engineers about manufacturing like tolerance stack up or the best one "How to design for manufacturing".

And they wonder why they aren’t well liked when they start a job after graduating.

Congrats on the real world experience beforehand. That’s a huge leg up on most of the others.

 

[JAS-SH]

Keep on doing! You guys are great. Love my BadRock 6mm ARC!

 

[Mech Eng]

I know this isn't a CNC machine but I still think it's pretty cool so I took a picture when at work. It's about 4ft thick.

 

[Defiance Machine]

We need a CT size action.1.45 --1.60 Dia., 9.5 -10" long with a Cheytac bf and Lapua bf. 1.250 barrel tenon both single shot and repeater .
750- .775 bolt dia,m16 mini extractor, integral lug,30-60 min integral base,load port 4.00 min....think i covered everything.

Name for action, The "'HAMMER"

When we get the current production lines caught up, a Cheytac size action is definitely on the list.

 

[Deets]

We're going to start backup with #MachinistMondays on our social media (although we're posting this up on a Thursday, lol), and we thought we'd share here as well with some recent additions to the shop as we continue expanding to meet increasing demand.

View attachment 7839903

The Nakamura NTRX Mill-Turns have been working out so well, we've just moved in #5. These machines are the top of the line and allow us to machine critical components in less operations, often only one. This helps us to produce the most precise actions we've ever made.

View attachment 7839906
View attachment 7839905

Kitamura also makes some of the best milling machines out there, and we've used them to make actions since day one. This new compact model, is small in size and huge on performance. It's a nice upgrade for our scope mounts and small parts area, that also gives us more room on the floor to expand. We're installing a twin spindle 4th axis rotary table, so we can increase production and quality, while still offering custom options.

View attachment 7839907
View attachment 7839908
View attachment 7839909

Looks like union IW’s moving those machines in.
Woots!

 

[forthehunt]

I hope I can get my hands on one fairly early.

 

[Defiance Machine]

@Defiance Machine

Do you or the installer utilize a Laser Interferometer? Most of the machine tool builders do this at thier factory but not at installation. I think very few shops do this ever.
On a 3 axis machine I will on a rare occasion find one axis that is within tolerance on positioning accuracy when checking with the laser.
Do you utilize a Ball Bar at installation and periodically?

I'm mostly curious which industries are adopting the practices.

Nice machines, They should give excellent service.

I'll have to ask Glen and Mike. We've pretty much got it down to a science now, but they would know the finer details on that better than I.

 

[BuLLet]

Wow, you captured 308 in the middle!

View attachment 7848375

 

[Defiance Machine]

#MachinistMonday question: "What all machines do you use?"
When you machine hardened steel for a living, you can’t have cheap, light duty machines. You need the best.
Here’s a list of the machines we have and a brief description of their application.

5x Nakamura NTRX Mill Turn
· These machines can do everything from lathe-turn and mill bolts out of pre-hardened 4340 in one operation, mill receivers to completion, and make small parts in “lights out” mode after everyone has left the building: all with extreme accuracy.

4x Kitamura Mycenter 5-axis milling machines
· With 50 Taper tool holders, robust box ways, and custom fixturing, these machines can take heavy cuts in hard steel with precision and ease. 5 axes minimize operations.

4x Sodick Wire EDM
· Wire EDM uses an electrically charged wire to accurately produce intricate profiles through long parts with no added stress, tool deflection or tool-wear issues.

Hardinge T65 High Performance and Nakamura Tome AS-200 lathe
· High level rifle accuracy is dependent on critical features of the receiver being square, parallel, and concentric. We use these two lathes to gun-drill the bolt bore, single-point turn the barrel threads, and cut the receiver face and locking lug abutments. We do this all in a single operation to minimize variability.

Yama Seiki CNC lathe
· This machine is set up with high pressure oil coolant and a gimble-chuck.

Tsugami SS 327-5 AX and Ganesh Cyclone 32CS screw machines
· These machines continuously make small parts like bolt shrouds, bolt stops, cocking pieces, firing pins, etc. out of bars of metal, sometimes 12’ long.

2x Sodick Sinker EDM
· Some features just can’t be properly generated with conventional lathes and mills. Sinker EDM uses electricity to burn a mirror image of the electrode’s shape into steel.

Omax Waterjet
· Our Deviant and Rebel bolts begin as a rectangular block of pre-hardened 4340 with two bolts nested in each block. We use the waterjet to cut these out into a rough shape.

2x Sunnen Hone
· These honing machines bring the bore of every receiver to the finish dimension, measured to 1/10,000 of an inch.

2x Minilase Laser engravers
· Adding laser engraving took machine time out of the Kitamura’s while adding finer detail to the finished parts.

Other machines:
· Kitamura 3020G 4 axis Mill
· Zeiss Contura CMM
· Okuma Multus Mill-Turn
· Fryer CNC toolroom lathe
· Fryer CNC toolroom mill
· Haas VF5 5 axis mill
· Haas VF4 SS
· Haas VF4
· Haas TL1
· Zoller Tool Presetter
· Hemsaw automatic bandsaw set up for 12’ bars
· Manual mills, lathes and grinders
· Heat treat oven
· 5x Tumblers for metal finishing

 

[ShtrRdy]

This simply amazes me to no end! Is there software that helps the machinist come up with the program to operated these multi-function machines?

 

[kyzim311]

what taper do you have on the Nakamura's? Capto? or......

 

[MK20]

No student loan debt for me either I paid for school straight up and it amazed me when I went back to school how little they teach engineers about manufacturing like tolerance stack up or the best one "How to design for manufacturing".

Or how about "design for use and easy repair"?

that is why my heavy equipment is 63 years old

 

[MK20]

April 1946 vintage.

 

[LeftyJason]

This simply amazes me to no end! Is there software that helps the machinist come up with the program to operated these multi-function machines?

Known as CAM software. Have to make sure the post processor is set up for the machine correctly. Lots of companies make all sorts. That should be enough for you to start down that rabbit hole. It can get deep.

 

[Defiance Machine]

what taper do you have on the Nakamura's? Capto? or......

Capto C6 for the Nakamuras, and our Kitamuras are mostly CAT 50