Range Report Made to order ballistics program

R

Rider

Private
Minuteman
Oct 25, 2009
8
0
35
Indiana
#1
My semester project proposal to create a ballistic program has been accepted!

This program will be developed for Blackberry, to be complete by May.

Windows mobile 5, 6, 6.5, will be added later.

Iphone, Ipod touch, and Ipad (if you are so inclined..) versions will come in the fall.

Now there are a few slight problems.

1. I'm new at long range shooting. I've been reading here for a long time now, and ordered my first precision rig in February, but its not done yet so I don't have any range time beyond 100 yards. So in addition to researching all necessary data, I would like to ask the experts on the hide for your assistance to fill in the gaps.

Of course I will use search exhaustively beforehand, but if you have any relevant data or formulas handy their inclusion would be helpful.

2. This is where I really need you guys. As I have not shot at long range I have no experience using ballistic programs, so I am asking you folks what you want a program to do.

What features do you want?

What are some deficiencies you've seen in other programs?

What platforms do you want one on?

If I can make something worthwhile, I will distribute it here free of charge.

Thanks in advance
 
#2
Re: Made to order ballistics program

You might check with seankndy to see where to get the open-source ballistics library that he started with for his Android-based app. Also, I'd forget about any Windows Mobile version before v.7. AFAIK, nothing's been written for the Blackberry so you might be on to something there.

As for suggestions, you can come pretty close with the basic algorithms, esp. for distances under 500 yards. However, there are some advanced features you might see about implementing: spin drift and coriolis effect. These are minor compared to elevation or pressure changes, but have some effect at long distance. Also, make sure you understand the difference between station pressure and corrected pressure. Your algorithm must take altitude into account when using corrected pressure and not at all when using station pressure.

You may find http://www.appcelerator.com/ useful. Never used it, but they have a free cross-platform mobile development tool/SDK.
 
#3
Re: Made to order ballistics program

Thanks for the tips so far.

The current windows mobile's are definitely not the best platform in user base and capabilities but that also makes them under developed for, which is a reason I'd like to put something out. There are also quite a few legacy PDAs and stuff out there; last but not least the course is Microsoft sponsored and up until now we've done a lot of work for windows mobile so if I can make it useful, misguided as it may be I'll write it for there too.

Real research and work will start next week, this week I'm mostly doing requirements analysis to see what the best features to focus on would be.
 
#5
Re: Made to order ballistics program

The difficulty in making programs work on portable devices like the blackberry is solving the equations fast enough to not be annoying.

The equations are old and easy to solve, but pretty hard to optimize to solve quick on a mobile platform.

I wrote an open source ballistics engine in C code a couple years back, you might consider using it. It was optimized for an ARM9 processor at the time. I'm not sure what BB's are using these days but its probably an ARM7 or ARM9.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/ballisticslib/

Using such a library would allow you to focus on a good user interface and implementing new features, as opposed to slugging through trying to optimize a successive approximation solver.
 
#6
Re: Made to order ballistics program

I STRONGLY recommend having a "range from mil-dot" capability similar to that in the Palm-based "Pocket Sharpshooter's Friend", aka PSSF.

That one has to enter the observed mils of the target on one field, then input the size of the target in inches or whatever in the other field, then automatically outputs the range (distance). A checkbox copies that range value into the input field for calculating elevation and windage based on environmentals and the load characteristics.

Improvements would be allowing more "scales" (yards, cm, meters, 2-liter bottles, milk jugs, cinderblocks, etc.) for target size, and having an observed target on the reticle option for the MOA/MOA guys...and output in inches per 100 yards or true MOA (and maybe even a custom-entered figure for scopes whose clicks are a bit off...with an appropriately highlighted tag indicating non-standard clicks being used)
 
#7
Re: Made to order ballistics program

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: howdydoit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope you can get something done here. Id really like my blackberry to be more useful.

Howdy </div></div>

You mean you want more from your crackberry than just email and work stuff right!

Me too!..

RJ
 
#8
Re: Made to order ballistics program

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: richardj</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: howdydoit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope you can get something done here. Id really like my blackberry to be more useful.

Howdy </div></div>

You mean you want more from your crackberry than just email and work stuff right!

Me too!..

RJ </div></div>

yes, I wish id went with andriod. lol. but if someone is willing make a program then im in, ill help all i can.
 
#9
Re: Made to order ballistics program

Last I heard, there is nothing for the Windows Mobile platform that uses the G7 drag model. If you did something with all of the characteristics of Exbal + the G7 drag model with option for spin drift calcs it would be pretty desirable.
 
#11
Re: Made to order ballistics program

So far my frustration with all of programs for a mobile platform and most of the computer based models are in the MOA/MIL/IPHY output area.

Explained - Most scopes don't actually track exactly as stated i.e. 1/4 MOA = .262" @ 100 Yards - I've seen several that are .249 to .278". 1/4 IPHY (Many USO scopes) = .250" - mine is actually .239" @ 100 yards.

When all of these programs output the MOA/MIL/IPHY they output if for true measurement. Some programs let you adjust your click adjustment but that does not change the MOA/MIL/IPHY output. It only changes the number of clicks required to reach the correct elevation setting.

I think a program for serious shooting should show the output (come ups) with the adjusted Click Value. Nobody, well, not many count clicks and who cares how many clicks it is. Tell me what to dial my scope to.

Real world example - My Rock River A4 Varmint (5.56) shooting Hornady 55 grain TAP. Muzzle Velocity 2927.5 @ 63 degrees. BC .235 Station Pressure 29.53

This guns has a USO 1.8x10 Tpal that is suppose to adjust in 1/4 (.25") IPHY clicks. In reality is adjusts .2399" per click. Well lets just go right to 1000 yards. Bullet drop at 1000 for this round is roughly 670 inches. Well to adjust up for 670 is 67 IPHY or 268 Clicks. For my scope to reach 670 inches @ 1000 is roughy 279 Click which actually corresponds to 69.82 (or 69.75) on the scope turret. 2.75 IPHY off of the scope setting if it tracked TRUE IPHY.

I just discovered JBM actually has a way of adjusting for this and it seems to be very good at it.

I have talked to RSilvers, the creator of Bulletflight (Knights Armament Co.) about this and have not seen anything from anyone concerning this.

Even Patagonias LoadBase has a click adjustment field but it does not change anything in the output area unless you are looking solely at clicks.

Make one with generic "come up" field and let the user input his own click adjustment values.

Off soap box now!

Bash away!
 
#13
Re: Made to order ballistics program

rider....i'll cut to the chase.....i use one that don't got batteries, and is specific to the boolit i shoot in the boolit launcher i shoot.
its won matches already and it can be used anywhere on the planet you can breath unassisted.
all you need to know is the DA in the AO you are to use the system.

savvy the DTAC card system.

no need to re-invent the wheel
 
#14
Re: Made to order ballistics program

Bryan,

do the results carry over to output in the form of "clicks" or for your "come up" value matching your turrets as in MOA?

If so, good for the Android users. I thought I was stepping up with an Iphone!
Maybe some of the others will follow!

Thanks for the info!
 
#15
Re: Made to order ballistics program

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sniper1*</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bryan,

do the results carry over to output in the form of "clicks" or for your "come up" value matching your turrets as in MOA?

Thanks for the info! </div></div>

Shooter, the program Sean Kennedy developed for Android devices, will do that. It is stil undergoing further refinements as well.
In each gun profile you enter you can specify MOA, IPHY, or Mil along with the fraction-per-click or even whole numbers for each of the elevation and windage adjustments......even mil for one and MOA or IPHY for the other if your scope is set up that way. There is an additional field for decimal percentage of base value if your adjustments don't exactly fit any of those.

Yes, output data in "clicks" remains true to the system, fractional increments, and percentage of base value. When you get to large adjustments, though, that number gets pretty large and cumbersome.
The fat that the output data exactly matches your adjustments values, even non-standard ones, leaves me less interested in "clicks".

Another thing I like is that you always see elevation and windage corrections in IPHY, MOA, Mil, and "clicks"....though your preferred selection is displayed in a larger font to keep you from getting confused. This means that you will be able to interact with a fellow shooter or spotter who is using a scope with different systems.

It's an excellent program!
 
#17
Re: Made to order ballistics program

I have given some thought to putting my dope book into eXcel and having eXcel compute a 5th-6th order polynomial (solver) that fits all the data to a (ahem) simple equation (well for a calculator it would be simple).
 
#18
Re: Made to order ballistics program

I am heavily considering getting one of these. As of yet I do not have a phone running Android, but I was also considering upgrading to one and running shooter.

I know this has already been asked Brian, but are you still considering a group buy for Moball? I've been planning on buying your book, but am holding off while I decide what ball. calc I want (So I can do the combo deal on the book and moball, should I decide on Moball.
 
#19
Re: Made to order ballistics program

I appreciate all the feedback on my issue/suggestion. I use IPHY for my work guns and wish they had a program that would run on Iphone that worked this way. Like I said earlier, I contacted rsilvers about modifying bulletflight and was told that there had not been enough interest in IPHY or the Custom setting.

Maybe this will help persuade him and Johnathon from Ballistic to make some changes!

BTW - I stopped counting clicks back in 1997 when I attended my basic school.

I get to go back to teach now and we strongly urge the students to get away from click and talk MOA/MIL.

Bulletflight and Ballistic are great programs just a little limited in fine tuning in this particular area.
 
#20
Re: Made to order ballistics program

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sniper1*</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So far my frustration with all of programs for a mobile platform and most of the computer based models are in the MOA/MIL/IPHY output area.

Explained - Most scopes don't actually track exactly as stated i.e. 1/4 MOA = .262" @ 100 Yards - I've seen several that are .249 to .278". 1/4 IPHY (Many USO scopes) = .250" - mine is actually .239" @ 100 yards.

When all of these programs output the MOA/MIL/IPHY they output if for true measurement. Some programs let you adjust your click adjustment but that does not change the MOA/MIL/IPHY output. It only changes the number of clicks required to reach the correct elevation setting.

I think a program for serious shooting should show the output (come ups) with the adjusted Click Value. Nobody, well, not many count clicks and who cares how many clicks it is. Tell me what to dial my scope to.

Real world example - My Rock River A4 Varmint (5.56) shooting Hornady 55 grain TAP. Muzzle Velocity 2927.5 @ 63 degrees. BC .235 Station Pressure 29.53

This guns has a USO 1.8x10 Tpal that is suppose to adjust in 1/4 (.25") IPHY clicks. In reality is adjusts .2399" per click. Well lets just go right to 1000 yards. Bullet drop at 1000 for this round is roughly 670 inches. Well to adjust up for 670 is 67 IPHY or 268 Clicks. For my scope to reach 670 inches @ 1000 is roughy 279 Click which actually corresponds to 69.82 (or 69.75) on the scope turret. 2.75 IPHY off of the scope setting if it tracked TRUE IPHY.

I just discovered JBM actually has a way of adjusting for this and it seems to be very good at it.

I have talked to RSilvers, the creator of Bulletflight (Knights Armament Co.) about this and have not seen anything from anyone concerning this.

Even Patagonias LoadBase has a click adjustment field but it does not change anything in the output area unless you are looking solely at clicks.

Make one with generic "come up" field and let the user input his own click adjustment values.

Off soap box now!

Bash away! </div></div>

Truly disappointing when those scopes don't track the values that they are suppose to. I understand that much and fully agree with it.

I only wanted to express that LoadBase 3.0 (Desktop and Mobile) has a “TRT” feature that does exactly what you are looking for.

You just enter the true value that your scope is adjusting for and when selecting between choices: (CLK,IPHY, MOA, MRAD or TRT); you choose TRT

which will truly make a difference!

25pnwrb.jpg
 
#21
Re: Made to order ballistics program

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">rider....i'll cut to the chase.....i use one that don't got batteries, and is specific to the boolit i shoot in the boolit launcher i shoot.
its won matches already and it can be used anywhere on the planet you can breath unassisted.
all you need to know is the DA in the AO you are to use the system.

savvy the DTAC card system.

no need to re-invent the wheel</div></div>

+1
 
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