Make Tactical Great Again

[Mechdesigner]

I was thinking the otherday, what if they turned the tactical class (308/223) into a class where people actually shot tactical rifles. By that I mean field weight <18 lbs outfitted. Chambered in any commercially available cartridge that meets the 30 cal 3200 fps rule (even the military is not stuck with just 308/223 anymore) only factory ammo allowed (no mil/leo agency would allow hand loads)and have a trigger that is reasonable for a fighting rifle say >1 lbs. This would create a class where actual mass produced rifles could compete out of the box with no big disadvantage and new guys could upgrade their Tikkas/Bergaras/RPRs and not get thrown in with the full on open guns.

 

[b6graham]

Now the MD has to monitor
Rifle weight
Trigger pull (2.5 pounds is more likely)
Somehow factory ammo

Mass produced guns have their own class. Production. Even if its been taken over by semi-custom rifles on the 2 day stage, not so much at local matches.

You're not losing out on anything upgrading a tikka to compete in open versus a custom.

You're already talking a very small percentage that shoot tactical (or production). Rule changes like this would open make that percentage smaller.

I will say though. I think tactical should be open to any bullet weight in 223/308. You're excluding a lot of factory ammo options (and even more reloading) by stopping at 77/178.

 

[308pirate]

No hand loaded ammo = zero interest. 99% of those who would be interested are hand loaders.

Restricting what the majority of your participant pool does to get ammo, because of what mil/le does or doesn't do, is stupid.

You must be relatively new to shooting sports if you think mil or LE people have any interest, in general, in competing with firearms.

For years now both USPSA and IDPA have allowed police and military to use their duty handgun belt/rig in level 1 matches and it's a miracle to see a cop ever take advantage of that.

 

[308pirate]

Now the MD has to monitor
Rifle weight
Trigger pull (2.5 pounds is more likely)

Oh the horror of it all. $30 worth of scales and 30 seconds to check per competitor.

However do other shooting sports keep up with stuff like that?

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

In all seriousness, have you seen the price of factory ammo lately, a hundred round match could easily top $200.00 in ammunition costs alone. That does not include practicing or sighting in. Just,100 rounds at $40.00 per 20. Most I have seen is more than $40.00.

There was a group of SWAT team members training at the range yesterday, and I will say the equipment they were using was pretty cool. But, If I can’t shoot reloads, I can’t shoot. (And even that is starting to get a bit eyewatering expensive.)

IHMSA has had weight regulations for decades. The rules require that they do weigh guns, and they do check triggers for safety. (IHMSA competitors use 2 to 3 once triggers on their handguns, so a modified drop test is mandatory ) But, maximum weight of an IHMSA bolt handgun is 6.5 pounds, length is 26 inches. A lot different from a 26” barreled rifle that weighs 15+ Pounds.

And, all that said, having competed for over 20 years in IHMSA, never once have I had a handgun weighed or a trigger checked (except by myself at home to make sure it was safe)

 

[308pirate]

In all seriousness, have you seen the price of factory ammo lately, a hundred round match could easily top $200.00 in ammunition costs alone. That does not include practicing or sighting in. Just,100 rounds at $40.00 per 20. Most I have seen is more than $40.00.

Even if factory ammo was down to a buck a shot like it used to be, fuck buying it when I can make for less and make it better.

Fact: cops and soldiers, as a rule, don't come to matches. Any matches. There are exceptions and they are few and far between. Catering particularly to them is a waste of time.

The two cops I know who regularly compete in USPSA all use gear dedicated for the game. Neither has ever bothered with their duty rig.

 

[Mechdesigner]

Most new shooters jump in with factory ammo, and all mil/Le shooters are running factory ammo that was my reasoning, but say lift the factory ammo requirements i think the rest are sound

 

[SonoranPrecision]

Most new shooters jump in with factory ammo, and all mil/Le shooters are running factory ammo that was my reasoning, but say lift the factory ammo requirements i think the rest are sound

Sooo basically just production class except you can run a full custom...

 

[308pirate]

lift the factory ammo requirements i think the rest are sound

Drop the factory ammo thing

Keep it 308/223

Eliminate all bullet weight restrictions, agree that is a stupid rule

 

[gconnoyer]

Why does everyone care so much about rifle weight?

The current M40 is 19-20.5lbs. Is 20+/- lbs really "heavy" to people?
What if someone is a 300lb body builder? Should we discuss relative weight?
How much advantage/disadvantage is there between an 18 and 22lb rifle?

IMO if people want to shoot Tac, you need a .308/.223. That should be TAC/MIL/LEO class. Why there is a MIL/LEO class/trophy is beyond me.
Do whatever you want within that. Depending on shooting conditions, your 308 could weigh 30lbs andyou wont have any advantage.

 

[ChidJ]

First, I'm not an experienced competitor. That being said, if you design a match to make lightweight rifles an advantage, the rifles that show up will naturally go that way. At Mammoth, I did not see very many "heavy" rifles. If you make people carry rifles, climb with rifles, crawl with rifles, ruck with rifles, you won't need a weight limit. That being said, the sort of comp that involves all that may appeal to a smaller demographic. Just saying, if you really hate the "gamerweight" rifles, build a game where those rifles make their owners suffer.

 

[DJL2]

The NRL Hunter series seems to have figured out how to weigh rifle and manage power factors...presumably it‘s within the realm of the possible. That’s the most interesting division going right now in my opinion. Hell, even F-class has weight limits...and that’s not even a “practical” rifle discipline. I suspect that was OPs inspiration in part - a good chunk of your PRS guns wouldn’t meet spec for F T/R based on weight, I’d wager. USPSA has a weight limit on pistols too...almost like adding a bunch of weight makes the platform easier to shoot/more forgiving and some of those folks thought a reasonable upper limit needed to be imposed.

I will cherish forever that none other than TGO “liked” a comment I made about adding weight limits to PRS ;-).

 

[DJL2]

How much advantage/disadvantage is there between an 18 and 22lb rifle?

Luckily, this is easy to calculate. 178 grain bullet, 2750 fps, 45 grains of powder just to ballpark.
18 lb rifle: 9 lbf of recoil energy, 5.67 fps
21 lb rifle: 7.71 lbf of energy, 4.86 fps
22 lb rifle: 7.36 lbf, 4.64 fps

Just for giggles, here’s a couple to compare:
6CM, 18 lbs, 108@3050 w/41 grains: 5.03 lbf, 4.24 fps
6.5CM, 18 lbs, 130@2900 w/43 grains: 6.8 lbf, 4.87 fps

Given the difference in the two above was more than enough to kill the 6.5 CM as a competitive choice (not even getting into 6 BR), one could argue the difference between a 18 and 22 lb rifle is pretty significant.

Because you mentioned it -
30 lb rifle: 5.4 lbf, 3.4 fps

 

[THEIS]

Why does everyone care so much about rifle weight?

What if someone is a 300lb body builder? Should we discuss relative weight?

Hi,

I would hate to see the other members of that "Tac Team" if they have a damn 300lb body builder on the scoped rifle, lolol.

How about we just stop with all the BS "division" all together?
How about we just stop trying to make a "division" that fits where we think we can rank higher?
How about we just stop trying to put a box around something that evolves faster than damn cell phones?

IF you want to shoot a 10lb rifle, then shoot it. You do not need your own "division".
IF you want to shoot a 40lb rifle, then shoot it. Don't bitch that you timed out on stages that required 50ft of movement.
IF you want to shoot with 2 tripods, then shoot with it. Don't bitch that you weren't ready when stage starts.
IF you want to shoot with GI sock filled with sand, then shoot with it. You do not need your own "GI Sock" division.

Make competitions about Marksmanship again and not Division titles.............

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Texasflyer]

In all seriousness, have you seen the price of factory ammo lately, a hundred round match could easily top $200.00 in ammunition costs alone. That does not include practicing or sighting in. Just,100 rounds at $40.00 per 20. Most I have seen is more than $40.00.

There was a group of SWAT team members training at the range yesterday, and I will say the equipment they were using was pretty cool. But, If I can’t shoot reloads, I can’t shoot. (And even that is starting to get a bit eyewatering expensive.)

IHMSA has had weight regulations for decades. The rules require that they do weigh guns, and they do check triggers for safety. (IHMSA competitors use 2 to 3 once triggers on their handguns, so a modified drop test is mandatory ) But, maximum weight of an IHMSA bolt handgun is 6.5 pounds, length is 26 inches. A lot different from a 26” barreled rifle that weighs 15+ Pounds.

And, all that said, having competed for over 20 years in IHMSA, never once have I had a handgun weighed or a trigger checked (except by myself at home to make sure it was safe)

I have a buddy that owns a gunshop, he took a bunch of ammo to sale at some event or gunshow or something, he accidentally mismarked some hornady 223 varmit ammo at like 56 bucks for 20 and he said his wife sold 4 cases worth before he found out his mistake. I cant believe people are paying whatever for ammo.

 

[DJL2]

I don't care what @THEIS says...I want a sock division!

 

[Meety Peety]

Oh look we haven't beat this horse in a while glad we didn't let this one fall by the wayside

 

[NoLegs24]

Hi,

I would hate to see the other members of that "Tac Team" if they have a damn 300lb body builder on the scoped rifle, lolol.

How about we just stop with all the BS "division" all together?
How about we just stop trying to make a "division" that fits where we think we can rank higher?
How about we just stop trying to put a box around something that evolves faster than damn cell phones?

IF you want to shoot a 10lb rifle, then shoot it. You do not need your own "division".
IF you want to shoot a 40lb rifle, then shoot it. Don't bitch that you timed out on stages that required 50ft of movement.
IF you want to shoot with 2 tripods, then shoot with it. Don't bitch that you weren't ready when stage starts.
IF you want to shoot with GI sock filled with sand, then shoot with it. You do not need your own "GI Sock" division.

Make competitions about Marksmanship again and not Division titles.............

Sincerely,
Theis

Holy S*... Yes!! 100%!!

S*, nobody knew I was shooting my 30gay at last years NRL Rifles Only Brawl match (besides the people I went with) Till after they saw me sitting in 2nd after day 1. I did it for bragging rights . Screwed the pooch on both mover stages (F* your mirage, TX!!!) which dropped me to 12th. 9pts behind 1st.

But like @THEIS said, bring whatever the f* you want to bring. Unless you want a participation trophy. As that’s what the Tac class/ division has been all about lately. #fightingwords


And no, the NRL doesn’t have a tac class/ division

 

[308pirate]

It's as if this "run whatever you brung" no equipment divisions thing has never been tried before and what inevitably happens after is an unknown..............

To quote G. David Tubb: If a fly grows up in a jar of vinegar, it thinks it's the sweetest place on Earth.

 

[hondo1312]

Hi,

I would hate to see the other members of that "Tac Team" if they have a damn 300lb body builder on the scoped rifle, lolol.

How about we just stop with all the BS "division" all together?
How about we just stop trying to make a "division" that fits where we think we can rank higher?
How about we just stop trying to put a box around something that evolves faster than damn cell phones?

IF you want to shoot a 10lb rifle, then shoot it. You do not need your own "division".
IF you want to shoot a 40lb rifle, then shoot it. Don't bitch that you timed out on stages that required 50ft of movement.
IF you want to shoot with 2 tripods, then shoot with it. Don't bitch that you weren't ready when stage starts.
IF you want to shoot with GI sock filled with sand, then shoot with it. You do not need your own "GI Sock" division.

Make competitions about Marksmanship again and not Division titles.............

Sincerely,
Theis

Exactly. Every time this division conversation comes up, it just seems like a new way for someone to get to the prize table faster. When it will it end? Do we eventually get to caliber/chamber/bullet/powder/primer/case division? Can we go that far?

I can see the post-match FB posts already...

"PRS Championship is in the books! So stoked to have taken home first place in the 6GT/Lapua case/110 A Tip/H4895/CCI 450 division. Competition was super tough, but me and the second place guy shared wind calls all weekend and really smoked the 6GT/Lapua case/105 Hybrid/H4895/CCI 450 guys. I'd like to thank my sponsors and be sure to check Snipers Hide BST Monday for my prize table sale!"