I'm glad to see the military actually make a good selection on a important piece of gear. They seem to get it wrong way more often than right.
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I would not say they are "made to be" hand tight, they are just like any other steel barrel and need to be machined by a good gunsmith (unless you get a pre-fit); however, for the torture test they set it up to be easily removed and re-attached without torquing.I wished they would have used an AI to see if they could get better results since there barrels are made to be hand tight
Why would you want a discontinued scope to sit on the latest Marine Sniper Rifle? Many would argue that 15x is not "plenty" for 1000 and beyond, the only thing the 3.5-15 gets you is saving a little weight and bottom end FOV and you think 8oz extra to a Marine Sniper is going to hinder them more than having a better scope and how many shots will a Sniper make that will require a wider FOV at close range, there are other rifle systems suited better for those situations. The ATACR F1 series is NF's latest which has arguably better glass than previous generation and the 5-25 magnification is pretty much the standard for long range engagements which is what this rifle was designed for. Like my Pops used to tell me "you're entitled to your own wrong opinion"the 5-25 is too much scope anyways, much less the 7-35. the problem I see is they are adding so much weight to the system. not a big fan of the horus reticle either. 3.5-15 would have been my choice. plenty of scope for 1000 and beyond.
The ATACR F1 series is NF's latest which has arguably better glass than previous generation
Then why buy a 7-35x when 15x will doI shot the NF 7-35x this past weekend,
Never took it off 15x except to go to 10x to location the targets, shot everything around 15x
Then why to buy a 7-35x when 15x will doI get your point, a 7-35x doesn't necessarily mean it has to go on an ELR rig, it's nice to have it when you need it but not necessary.
I said I don't have an ELR rig, so I'm not doing any ELR shooting and you have a heck of a lot more experience than I do and appreciate your insight; however, I do have some questions about what you are saying. I understand when you say "ELR is about Elevation, not magnification" but wouldn't you say it is "more about elevation than it is about magnification" because it seems you're discounting magnification altogether. I realize that if you intend to shoot long range you don't just go pick up the highest magnification scope you can find, crank that lever all the way over and begin flinging lead, heck, sometimes I get thick mirage at close range depending on conditions so I get that it's not all about high magnification, but you also mentioned using 30x on paper at 100, so you verify there are situations where it's nice to have it which is what I was saying.Dude, I am not sure what ELR Shooting you are doing, but it's fuck all hard to see on high magnification especially in the summer.
ELR is about Elevation, not magnification.
Sure there are guys that like to shoot on high power, however, I want FOV and the ability to have options. On paper at 100 yards, I shoot on 30x, on steel, 12x -18x depending on the situation.
in competition when you are moving, when you have to locate the targets under time, you need FOV, when using alternate positions it's easier to open up the eye box and shoot on lower power and not have to hunt for targets.
I shot 4000 yards with an S&B 3-27x, I was probably on 18x most of the time. The reason to use that scope, elevation, vs magnification.
Okay, but since you don't need 27x the 3-20 would have worked just as well for you right?I used the other 3-27x, with more than 26 Mils of elevation, S&B sells a version with 34 Mils.
The old model is 26, there is a 34 Mil version
By saying I would use 30x or so to zero at 100 doesn't mean I do, means it's the only time I consider going over 20x with just about any scope. 24x, 25x, 30x, 35x... I still hover around 18x for steel and just above for zeroing.
You can say, "It's better to have it and not need it vs not having it at all" sure, but also I find with some of the higher magnification scopes the top end is not as good as powering down?
What that means:
In the case of the 3-20x vs the 3-27x, I think using 20x on the 3-27x looks better than the using 20x on the 3-20x it's not the same to me. Maybe it is for you, but not me. I feel the midranges are crisper to look at vs the max magnification setting on many of these optics. It might be a perception thing but in my mind I like powering them down and believe they resolve better doing so vs being at max magnification.
I try to keep up, but I'm Army so bare with meIt could have been,
Try to keep up Bill, I don't shoot on High Power, my normal shooting is all below 20x, I could have used the 3-20x, I could have used a Vortex but I feel it's a bit under-resolved vs the S&B. We have a lot of choices.
By saying I would use 30x or so to zero at 100 doesn't mean I do, means it's the only time I consider going over 20x with just about any scope. 24x, 25x, 30x, 35x... I still hover around 18x for steel and just above for zeroing.
You can say, "It's better to have it and not need it vs not having it at all" sure, but also I find with some of the higher magnification scopes the top end is not as good as powering down?
What that means:
In the case of the 3-20x vs the 3-27x, I think using 20x on the 3-27x looks better than the using 20x on the 3-20x it's not the same to me. Maybe it is for you, but not me. I feel the midranges are crisper to look at vs the max magnification setting on many of these optics. It might be a perception thing but in my mind I like powering them down and believe they resolve better doing so vs being at max magnification.
I use a lot of 4-16x scopes too both NF and S&B
but also I find with some of the higher magnification scopes the top end is not as good as powering down?
What that means:
In the case of the 3-20x vs the 3-27x, I think using 20x on the 3-27x looks better than the using 20x on the 3-20x it's not the same to me. Maybe it is for you, but not me. I feel the midranges are crisper to look at vs the max magnification setting on many of these optics. It might be a perception thing but in my mind I like powering them down and believe they resolve better doing so vs being at max magnification.
I'm a consultant and am often involved in situations where a RFP is sent out to multiple vendors meeting a requirement by the client; however, often times the decision has already been made and the other vendors are more a formality than they are of serious consideration, but just hearing the words Barska and military together make me cringe.Barska 4-16x50mm Illuminated Mil-Dot Sniper Rifle Scope
Was anyone aware that extensive testing was attempted on this scope before the ATACR F1 was chosen ?
Well that might ruffle some feathers, but an interesting observation none-the-less. I'd really like ZCO to get their scopes out (ZC527 and ZC420) as I'm hoping the ZC420 brings ultra shorts to a whole new level, plus it matches with my ideal magnification range.I find myself visually seeing the same things sometimes. I compared my 7-35 vs my TT525 both at 25x and I actually liked the picture of the 7-35 better in that situation. I like to go towards I have extra if I need it.
That's an interesting observation. I'll have to put my ATACRs side by side at 25x -- top end for one, mid for the other -- and see what the image looks like.
This is much better news than the Sig Tango6 1-6 selection!
what in the world do the Marines know that the Army is missing ?![]()
*twoUmmm...
1. That every person is ultimately a rifleman.
2. That changing unfoirms every three years is asinine.
3. That we don't need air assault badges, since that shit is part of boot camp.
4. That occupation of territory is boring as shit, and best left to cops (cue the Army).
5. That our brothers in the Army come in too flavors, really sharp and really dull. Not a lot of middle ground there.
6. That the Army's lack of discipline is both a blessing and a hazard. The sharp ones adapt quickly, disregarding dogma and policy. Sometimes that adaptation isn't well thought out though, and gets people killed.
7. That the Army typically trains for exercises that simulate combat. Marines just train for combat (still conduct artillery live fire over our own barracks to this day).
8. That Army uniforms look like fucking a Christmas tree decorated boy scout uniform.
9. That they get all the new gear, often finding all the fuck ups, long before the Corps ever acquire it.
10. That when the shit hits the fan, we'll be there to help, and likewise, when we're in need, so will they.
![]()
It could have been,
Try to keep up Bill, I don't shoot on High Power, my normal shooting is all below 20x, I could have used the 3-20x, I could have used a Vortex but I feel it's a bit under-resolved vs the S&B. We have a lot of choices.
By saying I would use 30x or so to zero at 100 doesn't mean I do, means it's the only time I consider going over 20x with just about any scope. 24x, 25x, 30x, 35x... I still hover around 18x for steel and just above for zeroing.
You can say, "It's better to have it and not need it vs not having it at all" sure, but also I find with some of the higher magnification scopes the top end is not as good as powering down?
What that means:
In the case of the 3-20x vs the 3-27x, I think using 20x on the 3-27x looks better than the using 20x on the 3-20x it's not the same to me. Maybe it is for you, but not me. I feel the midranges are crisper to look at vs the max magnification setting on many of these optics. It might be a perception thing but in my mind I like powering them down and believe they resolve better doing so vs being at max magnification.
I use a lot of 4-16x scopes too both NF and S&B
the 5-25 is too much scope anyways, much less the 7-35. the problem I see is they are adding so much weight to the system. not a big fan of the horus reticle either. 3.5-15 would have been my choice. plenty of scope for 1000 and beyond.
LOL! Fixed it (was heading out the door to a customer site, so was in a rush).*two
Are you kidding me Frank
Honestly, the pre-historic S&B 4-16x42 is probably one of my favourites. There is just something about that scope.
On 3-20x vs 3-27x at 20x: there are several things at play. The most obvious one is the larger objective. Exit pupil at 20x is perceptibly larger with the 3-27x which makes things a little easier. Another is the way the objective is built. Since S&B wasn't dealing with the same overall length constraints, it was easier for them to extract higher image quality out of the 3-27x and as you go up in magnification, you start seeing that. At 20x, I already see it, although both are very nice scopes.
I am definitely with Lowlight on the magnification choice: I only dial up above 20x to look at the conditions or, when shooting paper, to look for bullet holes. I am going to head to the range in about 15 minutes and although it has cooled down a little today, it is still well in the 90s, so high magnification will likely not do anything for me today.
ILya
Give it time....Hey look, a non retarded equipment decision!
Sorry, but I am having a real hard time getting on board with the spending that it is going to take for the Navy to have and maintain a 355 ship fleet.
"The Congressional Budget Office estimates that ramping up to 355 ships over the next 20 years could cost upwards of $26 billion annually — not including associated increases in operation and support costs. That would be more than 60 percent above what the Navy has received on average for shipbuilding in recent decades, and more than 25 percent higher than the amount appropriated in fiscal year 2017, according to CBO "
Greatest. Feature. EverBecause that lever for the .1 is retarded. Yeah I said it.
I agree, FOV is an often overlooked spec and the NF 5-25 doesn't have the best low magnification FOV but it does pick up by 25x to compare more favorably with other 25x top end scopes. Are there better scopes than the NF 5-25, arguably so; however, the NF is a solid choice. SOCOM picked the 300 Norma Magnum but have they picked a scope for the ASR?There are 2 things pointed out above, that will most likely get lost in all of the chatter, but when it comes to a Military optic these days, they matter!
View attachment 6929346
LOW END FOV
Take a look at the chart above, and there are 2-3 optics that really stand out.
S&B PM II at 3-20 & 3-27 at 3 Power = 42.7 feet
Vortex Razor Gen II 3-18 at 3 Power = 37.8 feet
Leupold Mark 8 at 3.5-25 at 3.5 Power = 32.5 feet
In the real world of combat:
- Real targets are very dynamic, and you need the ability to keep up with that movement.
- A combat zone is extremely dynamic, and you need as much situational awareness as you can maintain.
Looking at the 15-20 foot "window" that most scopes are providing for their low end, is going to be very limiting and challenging. Having a 30-40 foot window does matter, and can make a big difference.
TOP END MAGNIFICATION
Take a look at the chart above, and there are 2-3 optics that really stand out.
Nightforce ATACR 7-35
S&B PM II at 3-27
Vortex Razor Gen II 4.5-27
In the real world of combat:
- Engagement distances are getting pushed further & further out. If you can't find or see the threat, then you can't shoot it.
- With current more stringent ROEs, you can no longer just put the crosshair center mass and pull the trigger. Per comments above, you have to positively ID an actual threat, and that could be something as small as a cell phone or remote detonator.
While you may not be able to run the high end of the magnification range all of the time, bottom line is you can't dial up magnifcation that you don't have.
In the past it was always pick one or the other, because you couldn't have good low end and high end performance in the same scope. Take a look at some of the scopes above, and that is obviously no longer the case.
When you look at both of those critical items in a scope, there is a clear winner in both, the S&B PM II 3-27.
The choosen Nightforce ATACR 5-25 is just in the middle of the pack, there are worse, but there are also better!
Honestly it is Military Procurement, so I am actually somewhat surprised that they did as well as they did!
Good News, the USMC will be taking some steps forward with their new rifle and scope, but once again they are still not running the best that is out there.
have they picked a scope for the ASR?
Oh... right, so this is what they have so far, well, it's a good startThey haven’t even picked a rifle yet.
Lots of people who know would debate this title... he's a very good salesman we can all agree on that, not much else.
The T3 came about because the T2 was a complete failure, unfortunately it takes a while for the spell and the shine to wear off, those Ah Shucks are tricky, and with enough fog, it's hard to see the truth.
It works in some cases, but not in others, if we deployed to South America, the Philippines, or place with a lot of vegetation the Tremor and Horus would quickly be found to be lacking. As long as we fight in theses dry places they will continue to fool people into thinking the are the answer... but trust me, you can learn to do the same thing just as fast with any reticle without the clutter, or confusion.
It's bad for marksmanship, it's bad for wet or places with a lot of vegetation, it's bad when people expect one result and they don't get it, but otherwise it's just mils, and we all know mils work.
A Good Salesman, a few favors to the right people, and anything can seem like magic. But trust me, it's not what it appears, like all magic misdirection is a big part of the trick.