Marksmen issued better M14 rifles in Afghanistan

#51
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You say it's not what you would want for a DMR, but it's what we have right now and it works very well.
</div></div>

Works very well by who's standards? Yours?

Those who have served have already stated on here and on the other forum that the gun does not work "well", yet you, a man who has never served a single day in uniform is making a statement that you are unable to prove.

What is your agenda? Does it make you feel better about giving Ron Smith your money if you continue to tell everyone how awesome the M14 is? Get real.
 
#52
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">im sorry but why exactly is an ebr stock required for 1.5 moa. wont most springer m1a's do this out of the box? </div></div>

No
 
#53
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

I can't find the article, but I do believe the M16 by the mid 1990s had beat all the Service rifle records previously held by the M14, in fact I think Sinister is quoted in that article... but the records fell pretty easily if my memory serves me correctly.

I have to say, in the work I have done, I have only seen about 2 M14s being used and they didn't do very well accuracy wise, sure the reliability is there, but the accuracy is just not there, and I would consider 1.5 MOA to be below par by today's standard. It's not 1968, it's 2010.

Lots of day dreaming about the M14, but its' time is well past its prime and a properly build and driven AR10 type platform is much more desirable, at least in my experience. Heck we even seen the Rangers making solid hits to 800 yards with their SPRs using the 77gr round, so really, in an urban situaution supporting dynamic operations would you rather carry a heavy ass EBR or an SPR with all that entails, light, accurate, suppressed, & +30 rounds. More often we see the guys opt for the Mk12 and continue to sing its praises. I can say the SNOT guys are definitely using these over the 14.
 
#54
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

Looks like a lot of pros and cons for the M-14. I spent a lot of time behind an M21 and also shot quite a few M14 national match rifles. The thing I found wrong with the M21 was the mount and ART II scope. At the time it was the scope of choice, as you know today there are better rifles and optics.

sniper_team_zeroing_m21.jpg


AG2.JPG


m25.jpg


Later we updated some of our M21's with McMillian stocks, Brookfield mounts and Leupold M3A's. The rifles were still in our inventory and we slowly replacing them with the M24SWS. Before we got the M24's we were just trying to update what we have.

This debate will go on. Some will say the rifle works and others will say that there are better systems, but for now it is what it is.
 
#55
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmg308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">im sorry but why exactly is an ebr stock required for 1.5 moa. wont most springer m1a's do this out of the box? </div></div>

No </div></div>

They do 1.5MOA all day long.









































on the internet
wink.gif
 
#57
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

I had an M14/M1A while in Iraq 2005-2006. This is kind of old news. This is a picture I took in Baghdad between Abu Safin and Fahdel District on the East side of the river in East Baghdad.
3174778408_cf33189ff3_b.jpg
 
#58
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

FWIW,

The USCG was the second group right after NSW to get the MK14 Mod 0.
We have an armory full of them and none of them shoot under 2 MOA.
(They are not very popular with the members that use them.)

Comments are:
The accuracy sucks.
Too damn heavy.
Rattles like a baby's toy.
Super reliable platform.

No opinion intended here.
Just passing information from a unit that fields them.

I'm sure that a higher end gun smith could make one shoot after applying copius amount of TLC.
 
#59
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FWIW,

The USCG was the second group right after NSW to get the MK14 Mod 0.
We have an armory full of them and none of them shoot under 2 MOA.
</div></div>

I'm pretty sure those are the MK14 Mod 0s built by Crane and they defiantly had problems.
 
#60
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

They are all from Crane...
NSW was nice enough to hook us up with that and the Robar when were still using it.

The Coast Guard is real funny about caliber.
Size matters is definitely the prevailing mentality.
Good example being, Alexander Arms Beowulf .50 project.
The Mk14 Mod 0 was a good solution when it became painfully clear that the Beowulf project was not feasible.
 
#61
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

I shot the M14 in long range competition in the 80's. Among the many other things we had to do to it we also glued the action to the stock to get the needed accuracy from it.

I carried one on excercises, too. It was heavy, and awkward to carry and to use. I have tried the new ones with the plastic chassis systems and in my opinion the new stock mods make it even more awkward and less ergonomic than it used to be.

Unlike the AR platform there's still no way an M14 can remain at its peak of accuracy for any length of time under realistic conditions. It wasn't designed as, nor was it ever intended to be, a precision long range platform. It can get there, for a short time, after a lot of work, but then any free-floated AR with a good barrel will still still spank it handily.
 
#62
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

I'm currently working on an article on the TACOM M14EBR-RI for Guns & Ammo. I had a rare invite to visit Rock Island and spend a day with the TACOM team to watch them convert hundreds of M14s (they were using Winchester receivers (for the most part) brought out of storage and test them on their indoor range facility. They put the target in the box with the rifle before shipping out to deploying units. Then they slap two stickers certifying the MOA measurement. The reject is 1.5 MOA at 100 yards, but in the course of the last few years, only one rifle ever failed their tests. I saw more than 100 rifles in boxes and the worst MOA measurement was something like .92. The best was .60. That ought to draw some interests. We took detailed pictures through the entire process (including our range time) and are going to get some good quality shots of an escorted sample in our photo studio.
 
#63
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FWIW,

The USCG was the second group right after NSW to get the MK14 Mod 0.
We have an armory full of them and none of them shoot under 2 MOA.
(They are not very popular with the members that use them.)

Comments are:
The accuracy sucks.
Too damn heavy.
Rattles like a baby's toy.
Super reliable platform.

No opinion intended here.
Just passing information from a unit that fields them.

I'm sure that a higher end gun smith could make one shoot after applying copius amount of TLC.
</div></div>
That sucks.
The things that I didn't like is maintenance with the EBR stock is a pain!
The rifle is very, very front heavy (but it looks darn cool:)).

What I liked about it is that it did shoot actualy pretty good. I cleaned up the trigger and after some polishing it was relatively good. I like having a little extra ooommmmpppppfffffff for longer range and barrier penetration where letting my M240B's and M2HB rip loose in Baghdad streets would be detrimental/a bad idea.
My M4 worked damn well in about every situation however and with the MK 262 Mod 0 77grn Sierra Matchkings it was extremely functional so honestly I really didn't need the M14 in Baghdad except in maybe a couple of instances where people hid behind barriers and a couple of roof top long shots but then an M24 would have been really nice!!

Either way its another tool for the kitbag! I kept mine in the HHMWV ready to go incase it was needed and carried the M4. If I was going to pull roof top then I would pull out the M14.
 
#64
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunslinger2111</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm currently working on an article on the TACOM M14EBR-RI for Guns & Ammo. I had a rare invite to visit Rock Island and spend a day with the TACOM team to watch them convert hundreds of M14s (they were using Winchester receivers (for the most part) brought out of storage and test them on their indoor range facility. They put the target in the box with the rifle before shipping out to deploying units. Then they slap two stickers certifying the MOA measurement. The reject is 1.5 MOA at 100 yards, but in the course of the last few years, only one rifle ever failed their tests. I saw more than 100 rifles in boxes and the worst MOA measurement was something like .92. The best was .60. That ought to draw some interests. We took detailed pictures through the entire process (including our range time) and are going to get some good quality shots of an escorted sample in our photo studio. </div></div>

That is awsome!!!
 
#66
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">guess ive only fired the good ones then. </div></div>

All springer models are iffy out of the box where accuracy is concerned. You might get a base model that shoots an 1", you might get a national match that shoots 1.5". That doesn't mean they all can't be accurate, just the way it is.
 
#67
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It wasn't designed as, nor was it ever intended to be, a precision long range platform. It can get there, for a short time, after a lot of work, but then any free-floated AR with a good barrel will still still spank it handily.</div></div>

It is possible to drop the M14 barreled action into a stock which results in both a free-floated barrel and ties the action solidly to the stock without using the trigger guard.

Such a system will certainly enhance accuracy.

The M14 will have an advantage in barrier penetration over the 5.56 platforms using 77 grain SMKs.

I'd prefer an AR10 in .308 over the M14, though. It's relatively trivial to get an AR10 under a MOA, and harder with the M14, and the AR10 looks more like an M16/M4 platform than the M14 does.
 
#69
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EBRbuilder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gunslinger,

Hope to see you at the building of #5000 tomorrow.

Until then </div></div>

I hope to see lots of pictures that document this milestone.
 
#70
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

What barrier will you be shooting through that will defeat M855 but not M80?

And why not put an M240 on a tripod and hammer it?
 
#71
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

...was at Benning last year on the neighboring range while they ran the DM demonstration where the M16 spanked the EBR. </div></div>
sinister,
I'd like to know more about the M16 that was used at the DM demonstration.

Was it a rack grade USGI M16?

Was it a full blown target rifle?

No bullshit - just the facts please.
 
#74
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunslinger2111</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hell yes H20 MAN. I'll figure out a way to get the pictures we don't use for the article one the TACOM M14EBR-RI build online for all here to see. I have a about 100 decent pics. </div></div>

BurnsExcellentSticker.jpg
 
#76
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joey762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...the telescoping stock will bend out of place if you use the cheekrest properly. </div></div>
That was true with the early EBR stocks and the problem was due to the hand made assembly the telescopic stock rode in.
The problem was fixed with a new, more robust assembly. Old (black) and new (NSG) are pictured below.

Gray5.JPG

Gray6.JPG


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joey762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hate that rifle!</div></div>
laugh.gif




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joey762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Honestly, the M110 SASS needs to be fielded for DMs.</div></div>
laugh.gif
laugh.gif

 
#79
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monteboy84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's your agenda H2O?

-matt </div></div>

matt,

I don't know that I have any agenda, but I do share my experiences and what I know to be true.
I learn from others that are willing to do the same.
 
#80
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: monteboy84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's your agenda H2O?

-matt </div></div>
What makes you think he has an agenda?
grin.gif
 
#83
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

The agenda looks pretty clear... well once you get that crotch out of the way.


You have to admit is somewhat smart, pushing a specific product from a certain vendor without the appearance of direct sales, that just happen to be against the rules of the board.
 
#84
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The agenda looks pretty clear... well once you get that crotch out of the way.


You have to admit is somewhat smart, pushing a specific product from a certain vendor without the appearance of direct sales, that just happen to be against the rules of the board. </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">The smart thing is for you to back-up your accusation with unimpeachable proof.</span>


BTW: the only thing I'm selling is listed in "Optics & Accessories For Sale" here on this forum.


 
#85
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'm pretty sure those are the MK14 Mod 0s built by Crane and they defiantly had problems. </div></div>

How about you to backing-up your accusation with unimpeachable proof.

Alan
 
#87
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJ Brown</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'm pretty sure those are the MK14 Mod 0s built by Crane and they defiantly had problems. </div></div>

How about you to backing-up your accusation with unimpeachable proof.

Alan </div></div>
I'm pretty sure the story is documented in Lee Emerson's book... read it.

Lowlight, where is your proof?
 
#88
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, this is getting good. I have a supply of popcorn.
</div></div>

I'm on my second bag with extra butter.
 
#89
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, this is getting good. I have a supply of popcorn.
</div></div>
yeah well, I don't have popcorn or a microwave here in Iraq!!! This would be more entertaining if you guys didn't mention food (I'm starving)!
 
#90
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This would be more entertaining if you guys didn't mention food (I'm starving)! </div></div>

Sorry about that!

Stay safe.
 
#91
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

Hmm, impeachable proof... we'll forget the site linked on here dedicated to the EBR system, or the fact your posts are pushing a particular rifle for a particular purpose and you're arguing for your preferred system more than most casual users would. We have the insider information, the fact shortly after starting this thread the owner of the company is here right along with you... it all sort of adds up to a viral marketing strategy, which I happen to know something about.

What we can't forget is, I ultimately have the final word on anything written on this board, and I don't have to provide "unimpeachable" proof of anything, and being called out by someone who clearly has an agenda, is really not very smart. Although it can be an effective short term strategy.

But then again, continuing on and on, answering your own post, you know when you have more than one response to yourself, that sort of lends to an agenda. I mean, were you searching the net for those pictures or were they given to you to post ? This is an important point because I suspect you were handed those images... So even if you financially gain nothing from your efforts, the appearance alone is enough, at least enough for me if I felt that was all I needed to enforce my rules on the subject.

So, now, argue your point with me...
 
#92
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmm, impeachable proof... we'll forget the site linked on here dedicated to the EBR system, or the fact your posts are pushing a particular rifle for a particular purpose and you're arguing for your preferred system more than most casual users would. We have the insider information, the fact shortly after starting this thread the owner of the company is here right along with you... it all sort of adds up to a viral marketing strategy, which I happen to know something about.

What we can't forget is, I ultimately have the final word on anything written on this board, and I don't have to provide "unimpeachable" proof of anything, and being called out by someone who clearly has an agenda, is really not very smart. Although it can be an effective short term strategy.

But then again, continuing on and on, answering your own post, you know when you have more than one response to yourself, that sort of lends to an agenda. I mean, were you searching the net for those pictures or were they given to you to post ? This is an important point because I suspect you were handed those images... So even if you financially gain nothing from your efforts, the appearance alone is enough, at least enough for me if I felt that was all I needed to enforce my rules on the subject.

So, now, argue your point with me... </div></div>

I think h20 is just an M1A fanboy.
 
#94
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I mean, were you searching the net for those pictures or were they given to you to post ? </div></div>

Hmmm, the first picture came from the ArmyTimes article I linked to. The second one is from someones imageshack file... I have no idea who owns the file and I took the the close-up pictures with my own camera. These pictures feature side by side comparisons of the Old (black) and New (NSG) butt stock assembly. The black one is the very first EBR stock that I purchased from a private party back in 2004 and the 1 of 25 made full length NSG EBR stock that I purchased from Clyde Armory. This rare stock currently holds my MK14 SEI Crazy Horse Mod 0 pictured below.
MK14SEICHMod0.jpg



BTW, anyone can read about my 1 of 25 stock in Lee Emerson's book.



 
#95
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

Interesting thread. Us Brits are going through a similar process now and have bought the LM7 from Law Enforcement International. Although I've seen the press release pics, I know nothing about the rifle or its reputation?

When the MOD made the announcment, a lot of ex soldiers here sort of sniggered and said "Bet you wished you'd kept the SLR now"...Personally, and trying to be objective, I think for run of the mill operations the SA80AS is probably a more effective weapons system now its come of age....
 
#96
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

H20 MAN,

Whats your experience with M14's?

The reason I ask, you seem to be pimping a system upgrade/adder to a problem I've never ran into, with my limited M14 experience. Most likely, I've missed something somewhere, and I'd like to know what it was.
 
#97
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WHY WAS I NOT ALERTED ?????? </div></div>
The thread looked promising from the very beginning, we though you knew
smile.gif
 
#99
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

I don't know what you guys are worried about. H20 has given us a ton of great information, is defending his product not selling it--we all know he's invested, and has been very kind to a lot of baseless attacks.

I think the discussion is great, I'm learning a lot and hope he keeps posting here.
 
#100
Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">H20 MAN,

Whats your experience with M14's?

The reason I ask, you seem to be pimping a system upgrade/adder to a problem I've never ran into, with my limited M14 experience. Most likely, I've missed something somewhere, and I'd like to know what it was. </div></div>

Pimping
laugh.gif


My M14 experience stated in the late 70's when I was able to shoot my friends fathers M1 Garand. I loved that rifle, but ended up buying AR type rifle for myself... time passed.

Following the advise of my friend that served on Enterprise, I went shopping for an M14 type rifle and purchased a Springfield Scout in 2001. My Scout must have been made on a Friday because it had zero USGI parts and it was a problematic POS that required four trips back to the factory for warranty repairs. I ended up with a National Match Scout with all TRW parts, but my confidence in it was low.

With the sunset of the AWB I began looking for something different and found the black SAGE EBR stock pictured below.
30+ years of shooting ARs had me wanting a pistol grip.
ebrbuild.JPG


My research lead me to the military MK14 Mod 0 and then to the military MK14 SEI. Crane does not build rifles for civilians, but SEI does.
Lee Emerson suggested that I contact Ron Smith and enquirer about the MK14 SEI and I thank him for that. "In 2003, Ron Smith and Smith Enterprises Inc. created its own version of the M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle (MK14 SEI Mod 0), which was more widely favored than the rifle made by Rock and Ribordy." Wikipedia

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">upgrade/adder to a problem I've never ran into</div></div>

The reliability problems I ran into with my Springfield are one thing, but if you plan to own an M14 that is AK reliable and capable of extreme accuracy you may learn from my experience and be able to avoid known problems. No glass bedding and no unitized gas system are part of the SAGE chassis. Permanent tension bedding, a shimmed gas system and a barrel that is semi free floated forward of the op rod guide block all help with accuracy and having the action built by SEI didn't hurt a thing.

I fired less than 800 rounds from my Scout and it required four warranty repairs to make it that far.

I have fired about 1800 rounds from each of my two MK14 SEI rifles (3600 total) and I have not experienced a single problem with either rifle.

The M14 is like a big block American Muscle car that responds extremely well to an engine that has been balanced and blue printed and a suspension that is set up for daily use/abuse. SEI balanced and blue printed the action and SAGE supplied the suspension... my M14s are set-up to tolerate daily use and abuse... more than I'll ever dish out.

The closest thing I have to the TACOM M14EBR-RI would be one of my Poly Tech rifles with a GI bolt conversion, stock Poly barrel bolted into the correct SAGE stock... I may build one this way sometime next year.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He is "invested" in the platform

Linky

Just sayin.....

</div></div>

Yes, that is my personal M14HDW homepage with links to my favorite M14 related forums and web sites. You will also find a YouTube video of me shooting my MK14 suppressed and a link to "The M14HDW Forum" plus a link to "The History and Development of the SAGE Enhanced Battle Rifle (EBR) chassis stock system". I own and moderate the forum (LAW483 is also a moderator there) and I put together and maintain the History a Development page. If you want to know something about the SAGE EBR stock and the rifles that go in them I have a ton of information to share or I can direct you to the person with the answer rather quickly. All of this is available at no charge to you and yours.


cool.gif


I'm a firearm fanboy and I'm proud of it.
 
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