Match primers versus regular primers

[ivankonev]

I thought I'd try a brick of Federal Match large rifle primers to try to tighten up my groups.

I have been using Winchester and Federal regular primers for many years.

Have match grade primers made a difference for you?

 

[nashlaw]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

Just went to WLRPs after using CCI BRest for years. In my heavy tac rifles, I have noticed no difference.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ivankonev</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought I'd try a brick of Federal Match large rifle primers to try to tighten up my groups.

I have been using Winchester and Federal regular primers for many years.

Have match grade primers made a difference for you?

</div></div>

9mm vs. 45acp ?

Take your pick.

I use them in my bolt gun loads and don't use them in my gas gun loads. I've never done an extensive A/B comparison, personally.

I do sleep better at night knowing that the US Army has speced the 210M for our 7.62x51 M-118LR carts.

Chris

 

[Rob01]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

I have tested Fed 210M and 210 as well as 215M and 215s and get no difference in group size or chrono numbers. I have some match primers left but after that I won't buy anymore.

 

[cyberpuppy42]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

AFAIK the match primers are simply regular primers that have been batch-tested to be somewhat more consistent than other lots. I doubt 99% of users will notice the difference.

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

same here, I am happy with 1/2 MOA and just about every primer i tried achieves that. These day buy whatever you can find though.

 

[rivemor]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

I know it's kind of funny but give Wolf primers a go. The only thing the Russians do well are primers due to the priming mix they use. They give me the best groups out of my bolt rifle and they are semi auto safe. I think they are way better than the Federal primers in my opinion.

When Federal created their Gold Medal Match primers some years back, they tried very hard to duplicate the Russian priming compound and production methods, including the dimple on the case head. They got close, but the original russian ammo was incredibly tough stuff to match, much less beat.

Wolf primers deliver very good accuracy and extremely low ES/SD with certain powders. (No guarantees–you need to test with your loads in your gun.)

Wolf recommends the Small Rifle Magnum primers for use in ARs and similar semi-autos because the Magnums have a slightly harder cup: “The Wolf Standard Small Rifle Primers have an all-copper cup, which is a little more sensitive than the brass cup magnum primers. If you are loading for an AR15 or Military-style semi auto rifle, or are loading high pressure cartridges in any other type of rifle, I would recommend the Magnum Small Rifle Primers. Both primers use the same amount of compound. The only difference is in the cup hardness.”

 

[lachoneus]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

Rives,

Do you know if other manufacturers (i.e., CCI) follow the same process -- just using harder cups for their magnum primers?

 

[ivankonev]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

Sorry but Wolf primers I will never use again. For a while after Obama was elected, Wolf primers were all that was available so I bought about 500 of them.

Out of several different rifles I had repeated hang-fires, click-bangs, and one outright squib. They are cheap and usually available, for a reason I suspect.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

I have the patriotic attitude. Fuck the Russians, I don't care how great their primers are, I'll never know.

As far as match primers, I heard, (don't know how true, but sounds believable) that they pick a day, maybe once a week? do the preventive maintenance, make sure al the tolerances are tight, and then run the production lines at half speed and take special care to make sure everything is as consistent and as precision as possible. The theory is that, although they are the same primers, they are made with extra care and should give exceptional reliable performance.

The above could an outrageous fairy tale, but it kinda makes sense to me. BB

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

A few years ago I read an article referencing Federal gold medal match primers. The author had taken a tour and amongst the other questions had asked what the difference was between FGMM and standard. As I recall what was stated was the FGMM are made the same as the standard but the employee making them has more experience and a track record showing a higher degree of consistency. That was it, no special dust or unobtainium was used.

I use Winchester primers almost exclusively and get decent ES/SD numbers and shots on target. But I am easy to please when it comes to group size. I suppose if I were shooting BR and trying for .00X groups I would play around with others more. But for what I do Winchester offers a good value/performance ratio.

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

A couple of weeks ago I talked to one of our Club's premier shooters. Several World Records and a regular winner of local Bench Rest matches.

I asked him what his choice of primers was. Answer, "Federal, just the regular ones".

Considering that "Bench Rest" CCI's are almost twice that of plain Federal primers---------

According to all the "press" I've read, Match or Bench Rest primers are supposed to be more Quality Controlled, not just in assembly but for composition of the priming compound itself. As for the "assembly", I wonder. I examined some Wolf Large Rifle, Winchester Large Rifle, and some CCI large rifle, the CCI's being BR-2's and the rest standard. The CCI's had all the same visible flaws as all the others. Cocked anvils, wrinkled primer material disc, and burrs on the cups. Go figure.

I guess the true answer is what works best in your rifle on the day you are shooting it.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

Yeah, come to think of it, I heard that too. More experienced operators. Whatever, but the difference in price is probably out of line for essentially the same product. That's like saying McDonald's will sell you a cheeseburger off the shelf for a dollar, but if you want to wait while they fry one special, they are three bucks. I'm pretty sure we anal folks are being taken for a ride, but I'm helpless to do anything about it. I just bought 3,000 210M for $37 a thousand at one of the very few local gun shops left, just so I wouldn't have to pay that ridiculous hazmat fee. Are they now charging $27 for hazmat, jacked up from $20? I don't know at what point I will refuse to pay what they ask? First born? I have to think about it. BB

 

[dmpowder]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

I always use the regular primers as I have never seen a gain from using match/BR/super duper primers. Why pay more when you can't see any benefit??

Buzz I agree with the Hazmat fee and some company's won't let you ship powder and primers together so now you out 2 hazmats. First born no now the second born...... that one I will think about! LOL

 

[RoosterShooter]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

Want to know the difference between Match and Regular Primers?

The label!

I swear. That's the only difference. They all go Pop, and 99.99% of the time they all throw out the same pressures. The only difference is with the Mag, Standard, and MilSpec Primers.

Mag are loaded hotter.

Standard are loaded standard. This includes all Benchrest and Match primers.

MilSpec are loaded with thicker cups.

Bottom line.

 

[Skip1eagle]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

These photos may prove interesting:
http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmpowder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Buzz I agree with the Hazmat fee and some company's won't let you ship powder and primers together so now you out 2 hazmats. First born no now the second born...... that one I will think about! LOL </div></div>

That's because those companies are not able to ship powder and primers from the same location. Midway is a good example. They may tell people "it's the rule" but in actuality it's because of their location they have to drop ship each from their supplier and the customer gets shafted with two hazmats.

Powder Valley, which I use, is happy to ship both in the same box and will help you max out the amount of powder/primers they can fit in the box so you don't end up with two charges.

I just order a years supply (or what I guess will be) at one time and that makes that evil hazmat charge about $0.50 per unit (pound of powder or box of primers).

Beats having to get bent over the counter by the local shops and then hosed out by the State to the tune of a Sales Tax approaching 10% where I live.

When I was buying "Match or Benchrest" primers from PV, they were almost half the price of what the local shop was demanding (when he had them).

Only thing I have to watch out for is when I receive my order. I may exceed the max allowed primers and powder for storage in a residence. When that happens they just get stored in another building.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I may exceed the max allowed primers and powder for storage in a residence. </div></div>

Maybe we should have a law that allows the local authorities to have unannounced inspections?

I'M NOT SERIOUS.

But, who are the people making the rules for us, the lowly subjects. Who says seven pounds is the max? 2000 primers is all that are allowed? Okay, I'm making up the numbers, just like the Fire Department does. Let's just say, I don't like authority. I don't like those in authority making rules they cannot justify.

Such as. For years we did not have hazmat fees. Now we do and it is considerable money. Can the "AUTHORITIES" point to a single incident where a package blew up in transit? I think not.
BB

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RoosterShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Want to know the difference between Match and Regular Primers?

The label!

I swear. That's the only difference. They all go Pop, and 99.99% of the time they all throw out the same pressures. The only difference is with the Mag, Standard, and MilSpec Primers.

Mag are loaded hotter.

Standard are loaded standard. This includes all Benchrest and Match primers.

MilSpec are loaded with thicker cups.

Bottom line. </div></div>

Well Speer uses their most consistent primer cup 'fillers' to make their BR (Bench Rest) primers and the filling line, runs at a slower pace, to ensure more inspection time.

CCI 41/34s achieve their lower sensitivity to a change in anvil geometry, IIRC, not necessarily a harder cup.

Chris

 

[rkaires]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

After 15 plus years of using Fed 210m and 215m primers I purchased I brick each of Wolf. No difference in group sizes with all other components being the same.

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Who says seven pounds is the max? 2000 primers is all that are allowed? Okay, I'm making up the numbers, just like the Fire Department does. </div></div>

Thank God those aren't the actual numbers or I'd be neck deep in the stuff that runs downhill.

I can keep 25k primers and 50lbs of powder, all I need to do is make sure it's in a proper cabinet which appears to just be a 3/4" plywood "box". When I get close to the max or over, I just load up more. Got lots of 50 cal boxes that I have stashed all over that are filled with ammo. (don't bother trying to put anything under the back seat in my truck).

As for "making up" the numbers most of the time it comes from NFPA guidelines or NFC. Thankfully the "locals" have not decided to go more stringent on their own but that's why I don't (and won't) live in a place like California.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

I'm no more a fan of The Land of The Fruits And The Nuts , than anybody else. If I could afford to move, I'd be gone. But, I "think" that 7 pounds is, or used to be correct? That's as far as the stores go. And, the cans they display are empty, the merchandise is locked up, in the back room. One store keeps it in an actual gun safe. I always thought that safe would make a dandy bomb. BB

 

[oldfatguy]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

Seven pound limit? Isn't a standard jug 8 pounds?

OFG

 

[noz455sd]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

Um no more than 7lbs of ammo in checked luggage on an airplane ride I believe

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

I don't know about that? It used to be 5 pounds on International flights, but I heard they changed it to a specific number of cartridges. <shrug> My wife checked 5 pounds through to Johannesburg, as did I, although she wasn't hunting.

In the stores in my area, they do not display 8 lb jugs on the shelves. I was referring to one pound cans or bottles, and that may have been a store policy, I don't fucking know? But, good catch! Who cares?
BB

 

[Boomholzer]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skip1eagle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These photos may prove interesting:
http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html </div></div>

That's an interesting comparison, there is more flash in open system. Is it meaningful in a closed system with a propellant not requiring an external oxidizer? In a closed system, would compressing the powder column from the ignition-end blast produce ultimately less or equal pressure much like conventional loading techniques?

Are lighter loads more responsive to primer difference, Yes. Are filled powder columns more responsive to mag vs std primers? No. Are compressed powder columns more responsive to mag vs std primers? Yes.

My experience. Nothing is linear.

 

[noz455sd]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

maybe it was airline specific because I remember 7lbs particularly flying from Montana to Texas with no shell limit...But things change daily in the war on terror

 

[Pappasniper]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

Wolf small rifle primers are tops for my reloads. Fed, win are fine for the magnum.

 

[KelsonAK]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

Alaska Airlines allows up to 50lbs of ammunition in their 'original factory packaging.' I've come close to that a couple of times as we get close to duck season.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

Don't make me laugh. I went all through that crap about "original factory packaging" It turned out those ticket agents don't have a clue what original factory packaging looks like. You should have seen the trouble I went to, scrounging for empty boxes at the range to package my handloads. But they don't look at a headstamp and go; "Whoa, the box says 308, and these are 30'06". In the end, all they care about is that the stuff is in containers, like MTM plastic cases and not loose rounds, mixed with your underwear and socks. Never mind that every agent you talk to on the phone has a different idea.

But, I imagine that Alaska has to have a realistic policy because some people will be in the bush for a very long time. In fact, flying to Cabo, Alaska is very liberal on fishing rod tubes and ice chests, golf clubs and surf boards. At least, they USED to be? Who knows, maybe they don't allow fifty pounds of ammo anymore? You could call them, but the only thing that matters is when you get to the airport and check in. That's the agent you are dealing with and what somebody else told you doesn't mean shit.
BB

 

[KelsonAK]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

That is really the best thing to do - check the airline's web site and talk to someone at the desk before you show up at the airport. I tell people all the time - get off your ass and go talk to someone. Same same.

Current AK Air allows for 1 gun case, no limit on number of firearms in the case. 50lbs of ammo domestic and 11 lbs for international. A recent change (since I last looked 3 months ago) is that instead of factory packaging they are now accepting "a container designed for ammunition and of sufficient strength to protect it from accidental crushing or discharge (i.e. wood, fiber, plastic, or metal)." Damn - that makes sense.

 

[flashhole]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

I see a difference in performance (accuracy) with small powder capacity cases (221 Fireball). Mild primers that don't have sufficient umphhhh (highly technical term umphhh) to dislodge the bullet and allow the powder to dislodge the bullet provide more accurate rounds. My opinion is CCI BR4 primers (mild) are the best for accuracy in the Fireball but not so much as to warrant double the money.


FWIW - I also see an accuracy benefit in my 25-06 using magnum primers over standard primers with 120 grain bullets over a full case of Retumbo.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

I was with you until that last paragraph. I have owned three different 25'06's and not once have I needed a mag primer. For 57/58 grains of whatever powder you prefer, that's still about 20/25 grains below a (my) threshold for mag primers.....unless you are dealing with subzero temperatures? Whatever, I suppose you have your reasons? Where's Owego? BB

 

[texastonk]

Re: Match primers versus regular primers

I just bought a box of FGMM last night. Same price as the CCI large rifle. $3.25 ber 100. Never tried the FGMM, but for the same as CCI why not.