McGowen Prefit Beware

[260284]

I waited until I got my barrel back to post this. Myself and @kswaterfowl ordered 6mm Creedmoor Tikka prefit barrels from McGowen this year. When I got mine, I had to put four pieces of scothc tape on a go gauge to get the bolt to not close. By my unscientific method of measuring the layers of tape (a Starrett dial caliper) my head space was .005-.006" too long. Made a call to McGowen and spoke with Dan who was very helpful back when I was deciding on a barrel contour. This time he wasn't so pleasant. He pretty much told me that this is why they recommend a gunsmith install their prefit barrels! I told him that I have 7 barrels between 3 different Tikka actions and they all interchange. He pretty much said he wouldn't discuss this with me, like I was below him. He told me to ship it back and I asked for a return label. He pretty much yelled and said I would get one. A week later I had to call back and finally got it.

In the meantime @kswaterfowl and I checked his barrel and it was headspaced long also. He called and Dan told him to take it to a gunsmith. Gave him the same story of guys like us building rifles in their kitchens and garages are the problem.

Sent the barrel back, they got it 11/18. It shipped out on 11/21 and I got it yesterday. Nothing had been done to it. Buy prefits from McGowen at your own risk.

Both of our barrels and actions are at a local Hide member's shop. The actions are within .001" of each other. My barrel is headspaced .007" long, @kswaterfowl is .005" long.

 

[db2000]

Wow, that’s disappointing.

 

[just browsing]

I have zero affiliation here, but .008 is technically considered the limit over SAAMI spec.

It’s definitely on the big side, and Lord knows how they would actually shoot, but it’s not really “out of spec” or dangerous. A lot of prefit makers (not saying all) will go on the big side to account for different types of brass, factory ammo, tolerance stacking, etc. FWIW, I have a friend with a McGowan 6 Creed prefit and it’s about the same.

Again, not saying it’s justified or anything, especially with how they treated you guys, but your brass would just form to take up the additional headspace.

 

[260284]

I have zero affiliation here, but .008 is technically considered the limit over SAAMI spec.

It’s definitely on the big side, and Lord knows how they would actually shoot, but it’s not really “out of spec” or dangerous. A lot of prefit makers (not saying all) will go on the big side to account for different types of brass, factory ammo, tolerance stacking, etc. FWIW, I have a friend with a McGowan 6 Creed prefit and it’s about the same.

Again, not saying it’s justified or anything, especially with how they treated you guys, but your brass would just form to take up the additional headspace.

I didn't feel comfortable shooting it when it would close with no resistance on a no go. Every other barrel I have won't close on a go with two pieces of scotch tape at the max.

 

[kswaterfowl]

I have zero affiliation here, but .008 is technically considered the limit over SAAMI spec.

It’s definitely on the big side, and Lord knows how they would actually shoot, but it’s not really “out of spec” or dangerous. A lot of prefit makers (not saying all) will go on the big side to account for different types of brass, factory ammo, tolerance stacking, etc. FWIW, I have a friend with a McGowan 6 Creed prefit and it’s about the same.

Again, not saying it’s justified or anything, especially with how they treated you guys, but your brass would just form to take up the additional headspace.

I was actually going to shoot mine to see how the brass looked, because the exact reason you just said. But I went ahead called Dan at McGowen and asked him his opinion. He told me that I would be dumb to shoot it like that, and I need to take it to a gunsmith. And he went on about how people like me shouldn't be assembling rifles. That's when I was done with McGowen. And I decided I would go ahead and pay someone I trust fix it.

 

[fdkay]

Disappointing for sure, as they make a pretty good barrel at a fair price.

 

[spife7980]

Sounds like an inspec barrel to me. Id be pissed if some idiot was wasting my time over that as well.

Im sure he cuts them mid long so that dumb asses dont complain that its a minimum chamber and then you have this guy come along and bitch about the opposite.

 

[kswaterfowl]

Sounds like an inspec barrel to me. Id be pissed if some idiot was wasting my time over that as well.

View attachment 8009845


Im sure he cuts them mid long so that dumb asses dont complain that its a minimum chamber and then you have this guy come along and bitch about the opposite.

Well Dan would tell you that your dumb also. Since you would shoot it that way.

 

[Evintos]

I didn't feel comfortable shooting it when it would close with no resistance on a no go. Every other barrel I have won't close on a go with two pieces of scotch tape at the max.

A Field gauge is the absolute maximum. A "No go" gauge is an arbitrary length dimension (that your gauge manufacturer decides) between Go and Field.

If you buy headspace gauges, 2 gauges you need, Go and Field. You can skip a No Go because you can make one using tape and a Go gauge.

 

[260284]

A Field gauge is the absolute maximum. A "No go" gauge is an arbitrary length dimension (that your gauge manufacturer decides) between Go and Field.

If you buy headspace gauges, 2 gauges you need, Go and Field. You can skip a No Go because you can make one using tape and a Go gauge.

I used a go and tape. It was closing on .006" of tape, more than any other barrel I have.

 

[just browsing]

This is why prefits have ALWAYS been a point of contention. You have guys that want their shit a certain way, and then others that don’t give a damn as long as it shoots.

Dan/McGowan/every other prefit maker probably get 100 of these exact calls every week, and at some point, the easiest response becomes “take it to a gunsmith.”

The barrels are not out of spec. But instead of spending their time trying to explain why they’re not to guys like you, he tells you to fuck off and go to a gunsmith. The gunsmith will either tell you 1) it’s fine or 2) it’s out of spec, ”fixes it,” and makes a quick buck off of something that wasn’t broken to begin with. Right, wrong, or indifferent, that’s exactly what happened.

Again, not saying he was right to be a dickhead about it. But it wasn’t worth his time to say anything otherwise.

 

[Evintos]

I used a go and tape. It was closing on .006" of tape, more than any other barrel I have.

Yeah but it still could've been within safe SAAMI spec headspace dimensions. That was my point. Field gauges are typically +0.010" (depending on cartridge) of Go and is the maximum limit. No-Go is arbitrary that means nothing other than it falls between min and max. A lot of people assume (wrongfully because of nomenclature) that "No Go" is the upper safety limit for rifle cartridges. It is not.

Had it closed on a Field gauge, it would not have been safe. If it did not close on a Field gauge but closes on a No Go, all that you would need to do is adjust your sizing die to compensate. Your case will expand to fit the dimensions of your chamber. If you use factory ammo, it would still be safe.

That's why people really don't need a No Go Gauge. Instead the Go + Field combo (plus tape if you really want to make a No Go) is the right gauge combo to determine if the chamber headspace is safe.

The only time I would recommend someone buying only a Go gauge without any other gauge is if they are setting headspace using a barrel nut.

 

[msgriff]

I understand that many use the scotch tape trick, but that, to me, is the definition of WECSOG.

 

[Taylorbok]

I used a go and tape. It was closing on .006" of tape, more than any other barrel I have.

@spife7980 posted the saami drawing 1.5410 - 1.5510 so that's .010". According to you, your barrel was with in spec. If you want a min spec chamber buy a blank, have it chambered and fitted by a good smith

 

[kswaterfowl]

When the barrel maker tells you that you would be dumb to shoot a barrel that closes on a no-go, you would go ahead and shoot it?

 

[Ledzep]

A depth mic and a GO gauge solves all of the confusion. You can measure depth from receiver face to bolt face, tennon length, and GO gauge exposure and get real numbers on all of it. No tape and/or guessing between GO/NOGO/Field.

 

[Taylorbok]

When the barrel maker tells you that you would be dumb to shoot a barrel that closes on a no-go, you would go ahead and shoot it?

You don't mention having a no go gauge. Sure you had tape on the go gauge but it still seemed to be in spec. I'm sure everyone of us has fired a factory gun with a long chamber with out ever knowing. He's sick of dealing with stuff like this, I thought I saw one of the larger pre-fit companies was asking people to send it actions for a prefit, which no longer makes it a pre-fit

 

[just browsing]

When the barrel maker tells you that you would be dumb to shoot a barrel that closes on a no-go, you would go ahead and shoot it?

The fact that you even had to call and be told that is more of a “what else could you possibly fuck up by installing this barrel” type of thing.

Same reason he said take it to a gunsmith instead of offering to take it back or exchange it.

 

[kswaterfowl]

You nailed it buddy!

 

[db2000]

This is why prefits have ALWAYS been a point of contention. You have guys that want their shit a certain way, and then others that don’t give a damn as long as it shoots.

Dan/McGowan/every other prefit maker probably get 100 of these exact calls every week, and at some point, the easiest response becomes “take it to a gunsmith.”

The barrels are not out of spec. But instead of spending their time trying to explain why they’re not to guys like you, he tells you to fuck off and go to a gunsmith. The gunsmith will either tell you 1) it’s fine or 2) it’s out of spec, ”fixes it,” and makes a quick buck off of something that wasn’t broken to begin with. Right, wrong, or indifferent, that’s exactly what happened.

Again, not saying he was right to be a dickhead about it. But it wasn’t worth his time to say anything otherwise.

Put it in huge bold writing on your website then. (Maybe they have I don’t know). Shaw barrels does this I know.
Also, formulate a proper response and simply email it giving your explanation AND stating this was explained in bold print on the website before you ordered.
To me it’s that simple.
Be a dick if you want if it’s your company. Also get called out on public forums for being a dick.

 

[260284]

From Brownells learn section on gunsmithing and how to use headspace gauges. Our chambers may be within tolerance, but look at what Brownells says. I am strictly reloading for this barrel.

Trigger Times | Brownells

Trigger Times | Brownells

www.brownells.com

Under normal commercial circumstances, a gun whose bolt closes completely on a NO-GO headspace gauge (even if it does not close on a FIELD gauge) should not be put out for sale or returned to a customer as being suitable for use, until the headspace situation is corrected. Keep in mind that a firearm may have perfect headspace, but may have other chamber problems or action problems that could keep it from being used safely.

There are normally three types of gauges made; GO, NO-GO and FIELD. The GO gauge corresponds to the SAAMI (Sporting Arms & Ammunition Manufacturer’s Institute) minimum chamber length, while the FIELD gauge usually matches the maximum chamber depth, or slightly less. NO-GO gauges are an intermediate length between minimum and maximum, that, technically, is a voluntary dimension. A firearm that closes on a NO-GO gauge and does not close on a FIELD gauge may not give good accuracy and may have very short cartridge case life from the ammunition re-loader’s standpoint.


Case head separations are a possibility with a gun that closes on a NO-GO gauge. It may also fail to fire or suffer from misfires, depending on the firing pin dimensions.

Open and close the stripped bolt on an empty chamber several times to get a feel for the amount of resistance the bolt has to closing. Slip the GO gauge into the chamber and with the pressure of only one finger, attempt to close the bolt. If you are working with a Remington rifle, or any rifle where the extractor cannot be readily removed, slip the rim of the gauge under the extractor on the bolt, and push the bolt and gauge forward to chamber the gauge. Attempt to close the bolt handle. IMPORTANT: If you feel any resistance to closing greater than you had with the chamber empty, stop right there. Don’t force the bolt closed. The bolt handle gives you a tremendous amount of leverage, so to avoid damage to the gauge or rifle, use only minimal pressure to close the bolt. If the bolt closes with no feel to the handle with a GO gauge in the chamber, open the bolt, remove the GO gauge, and replace it with a NO-GO gauge. Again, gently attempt to close the bolt. The bolt handle should stop or show resistance to closing at some point before it fully closes. DO NOT force the bolt handle closed. Even if the bolt handle closes 98% before you feel resistance, the headspace is normally considered to be within specs.

The complete lack of the vendor wanting to talk anything was a bigger problem than anything. I was told by Dan to not shoot my rifle with this barrel on it. Then they do nothing to it after having me ship it back.

 

[Evintos]

The bolded portion in regards to accuracy and shorten cased life would only typically apply if you're setting your shoulder back significantly in your sizing process. You're not required to do so. You can bump the shoulder back .002" from fired case dimension and not see an issue with case life. If you're bumping the shoulder back to cartridge min spec every time of course you'd have shortened case life. All cases will be fire formed when fired and if it's within spec, it'll be ok. Anneal to extend case life.

Other chamber problems would be throat length, chamber neck diameter, and chamber body dimensions, none of which headspace gauges will measure. The misfires is more of a factor of inadequate firing pin protrusion or excessive cartridge movement before the cartridge stops at chamber shoulder. There is a min and max allowable.

Headspace gauges will only ensure if the breech face to chamber shoulder distance is within spec. Again, field gauge is the max spec for safety. Everything between min and max is acceptable.

From the same Brownells link -

Edit - Yes, I agree about the vendor attitude, it's terrible. However, attitude aside, he's sort of right. Not trying to throw shade your way but too many people probably call him up with incomplete knowledge for the exact same "non-issue." Had you known for sure the chamber spec exceeding SAAMI max, no one (including Dan) would be able to give you shit for it. On a positive note - you're probably learning a bunch about headspacing and SAAMI specs.

 

[StaveyIL]

Issue aside. How you treat customers is key. Especially after the sale. Sounds like your typical all nice before the sale, but no time after with a change of attitude . Whether he does good work or not . If your an asshole it doesn’t matter.

 

[kswaterfowl]

Issue aside. How you treat customers is key. Especially after the sale. Sounds like your typical all nice before the sale, but no time after with a change of attitude . Whether he does good work or not . If your an asshole it doesn’t matter.

My thoughts exactly. Life's to short to be an asshole, and this world already has plenty of them.

 

[Ksracer]

I measured both of the mentioned actions and barrels in my shop last night. One of them was go +.005 and the other one was go +.007.

I spoke with McGowen a few minutes ago and went over the measurements. Both receivers are on spec. They said it sounds like they simply missed their mark because they aim for go +.002-.003, which is pretty much industry standard for everybody that I know of.

When I said one was .007, the response was "Wow. That's extreme. That needs to be fixed."

All of this talk about Field gauges on NEW barrels is non-sense. The only thing a field gauge guarantees is that it won't blow up, but you've got other problems long before the bolt will close on a field gauge.

 

[dirtytough]

My McGowen prefit made up fine and the headspace was good. The muzzle threads were so bad I couldn’t screw anything on though.

Dan said it was probably the CNC cut to shallow. I sent it back on my dime. Dan called and said nothing was wrong. I was probably trying to screw on a 1/2x28 suppressor instead of a 5/8x24. When I told him the 3 different items I had tried threaded on halfway then locked up. He said they would take another look but everything was in spec.

The next day I got a shipping notice that it was getting sent back. Now everything makes up just fine. Either Dan was lying, or his shop is lying to him.

I understand nothing is perfect. But don’t tell me that your CNC probably didn’t cut deep enough and make me pay for shipping back. Then tell me nothing is wrong and I was trying to thread stuff on with the wrong size threads.

Then when it shows up the threads are smoother and everything makes up now. Just tell the truth. I won’t use them for a prefit again.

 

[kswaterfowl]

I have to give a big thanks to Ksracer for taking the time out of his day to fix our barrels for us. He already has a lot on his plate, and he was willing to fix something that should be taken care of by McGowen. Stand up guy right there.

 

[db2000]

In my best Ebonics voice as I show up to McGowan to drop off my busted ass barrel.

Where Dan’s lyin’ ass at?!?
Say sumpin’ Dan.
Bring Dan out here.

 

[fdkay]

Seems like Dan is a bit of an asshole:

Mcgowen customer service?

Firstly sorry for the long post but its a long story... Anyone have trouble getting emails or good customer service from McGowen on Yahoo or Gmail!? I have had what seems to be a rather rude experience so far... I put in an order for about a $700 full custom barrel and I had noticed that after I...

www.snipershide.com

 

[super_poot]

Yeezuss, Dan needs to chill out a little, sometimes a little patience can go a long way with your customers. No one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes, it’s all about how you fix them.

Luckily there are plenty of other good options out there.

 

[502Chevelle]

Dang it, I was getting ready to order an AR barrel from them. Now you have me wondering.

 

[kswaterfowl]

I was going to order more from them, if this barrel turned out good. But after this incident, I won't buy anything else from them. I ended up ordering two prefits from preferred barrels instead. Hopefully they turn out better than mcgowen.

 

[Ape_Factory]

Man, y'all need to post this stuff BEFORE Black Friday. Just ordered an AR barrel from them based on the fact I could get 5/8x24 threads on a fluted 16" 5.56 barrel without spending $600. I have a CarbonSix barrel, McGowan blank, on my Cross and it shoots extremely well. Fingers crossed this turns out well.

 

[Haney]

Scotch tape bubba move and you come on here to slander a well known barrel maker .? Now that's a dick move .

 

[kswaterfowl]

Scotch tape bubba move and you come on here to slander a well known barrel maker .? Now that's a dick move .

You obviously didn't read a thing in this thread.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Well Dan would tell you that your dumb also. Since you would shoot it that way.

What do you think he is going to tell you? A guy with the potential liability even if its a small remote chance, is not going to recommend you shoot it.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Issue aside. How you treat customers is key. Especially after the sale. Sounds like your typical all nice before the sale, but no time after with a change of attitude . Whether he does good work or not . If your an asshole it doesn’t matter.

One side of the story. Who knows what else was said or happened.

 

[kswaterfowl]

One side of the story. Who knows what else was said or happened.

You got the whole story. It's pretty straight forward deal. Anyone that knows me, will tell you I'm about as laid back as they get. And I'm not going to make waves for no reason. But I will not tolerate people who are assholes.

 

[Badfinger]

 

[Ksracer]

Scotch tape bubba move and you come on here to slander a well known barrel maker .? Now that's a dick move .

Scotch tape, later confirmed by a no-go gauge, and then mics. The barrels are out of spec. Per McGowen, they should be go+.002".

One side of the story. Who knows what else was said or happened.

As far as I know, the barrels were purchased and had excess headspace when they arrived. (If the one that was sent back truly had .003" removed, it would have closed on a "Field" gauge, which is a joke itself.) McGowen is suggesting that the purchaser should pay a smith to fix them, instead of fixing them themselves. That's the story in a nutshell. I don't know what happened after that, buts it's pretty irrelevant.

Yeezuss, Dan needs to chill out a little, sometimes a little patience can go a long way with your customers. No one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes, it’s all about how you fix them.

Exactly.


They were friendly and polite when I spoke to them. But I can imagine telling someone that their new Pre-Fit needs an additional $100 worth of work to correct a defect would change the tone of that conversation.

McGowen fully agreed that they needed to be fixed and was fully on board with me doing it. "It's easy" was the reaction. Yes, it is easy, if you have $30k worth of machine tools and know how to use them. If these were pre-fits I had made I wouldn't want or expect anybody other than myself to fix them.

I've got no dog in this fight, but some of these reactions and accusations towards the OP seem a little off base.

 

[Taylorbok]

Go +.002" seems pretty tight for a pre-fit especially considering these actions are .001" different, not to mention maybe they are long in comparison to others.

 

[Evintos]

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/6mm-Creedmoor.pdf
Within SAAMI spec, it's safe for factory loads. Case will be fire formed on first firing and and sizing is controlled by the reloader after first firing. People shooting factory loads in what could possibly be millions of firearms with slightly longer but in spec chambers aren't dying by the millions. Wildcatters ain't dyin by the thousands. Handloaders playing with neck thickness, bullet seating depths, etc. ain't dyin by the thousands.

 

[st1650]

I've ordered a couple of blanks from them. Hopefully won't run into QA issues ...

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Scotch tape, later confirmed by a no-go gauge, and then mics. The barrels are out of spec. Per McGowen, they should be go+.002".

As far as I know, the barrels were purchased and had excess headspace when they arrived. (If the one that was sent back truly had .003" removed, it would have closed on a "Field" gauge, which is a joke itself.) McGowen is suggesting that the purchaser should pay a smith to fix them, instead of fixing them themselves. That's the story in a nutshell. I don't know what happened after that, buts it's pretty irrelevant.



Exactly.


They were friendly and polite when I spoke to them. But I can imagine telling someone that their new Pre-Fit needs an additional $100 worth of work to correct a defect would change the tone of that conversation.

McGowen fully agreed that they needed to be fixed and was fully on board with me doing it. "It's easy" was the reaction. Yes, it is easy, if you have $30k worth of machine tools and know how to use them. If these were pre-fits I had made I wouldn't want or expect anybody other than myself to fix them.

I've got no dog in this fight, but some of these reactions and accusations towards the OP seem a little off base.

Well dont buy shitty/cheap prefits if you don't want shitty/cheap service is the lesson learned here.

There is a reason the quality smiths charge what they charge and people are lined up to pay them.

But if it was within spec it was within spec. I doubt there would be any issues other than maybe pre-mature brass failures after 10+ loadings.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I measured both of the mentioned actions and barrels in my shop last night. One of them was go +.005 and the other one was go +.007.

I spoke with McGowen a few minutes ago and went over the measurements. Both receivers are on spec. They said it sounds like they simply missed their mark because they aim for go +.002-.003, which is pretty much industry standard for everybody that I know of.

When I said one was .007, the response was "Wow. That's extreme. That needs to be fixed."

All of this talk about Field gauges on NEW barrels is non-sense. The only thing a field gauge guarantees is that it won't blow up, but you've got other problems long before the bolt will close on a field gauge.

McGowen is pretty well known for making a decent blank, completely fucking up the chamber, and then blaming the customer. +.007 is kind of a lot for an aftermarket bolt action barrel but also still with in SAAMI spec. This thread has the feel of "when assholes collide". McGowen exemplifies mediocrity and Tikka prefit buyers don't seem to understand headspace. If the headspace were exactly 1.551" (.005" larger than the OP's) the barrel wouldn't have "other problems long before the bolt will close on a field gauge"...unless it had other problems. The specification is the specification and Tikka built the action to function with the headspace range.

Cut the tenon and shoulder back .005" if you want but you're only doing it to make yourself feel better, not make the gun function better. Seems ridiculous just so you don't have to size your brass back a little more.

Also, quit being cheap and you won't get third tier quality and service. McGowen sucks, if you'd done even a little research you would have bought from someone else. You should be high fiving each other because the cartridges even fit, instead you're complaining the barrel is in spec. All I can do is shake my head.

 

[kswaterfowl]

It's all taken care of. Thank you for your advice

 

[FuhQ]

I talked to Dan over 10 years ago about chambering a barrel blank for a wildcat cartridge that he had a reamer for, and nobody else. He acted the exact same way. Fuck him. I'll never buy anything they offer, or have them perform any work for me. I never forget, same with how Weatherby fucked me over, and so did Criterion. None of the listed will ever get my money, or from anyone else I know.

 

[jbell]

I talked to Dan over 10 years ago about chambering a barrel blank for a wildcat cartridge that he had a reamer for, and nobody else. He acted the exact same way. Fuck him. I'll never buy anything they offer, or have them perform any work for me. I never forget, same with how Weatherby fucked me over, and so did Criterion. None of the listed will ever get my money, or from anyone else I know.

Agreed, it is not that there is a problem but rather how they are handled. I bought a prefit from PVA back when Josh was first getting going and the chamber was quite large (OD) at the base. Josh was great about it, he truly went above and beyond. He made a customer for life. I have had several of these interactions in this industry.

 

[Pootyng]

The 2 tikka profit barrels I got from McGowen last year each had something out of spec. I called got a return slip and a month later had one new barrel and the other was corrected. The new barrel had really tight threads and the action wouldn’t start. Called got another return slip and sent it and an action to Dan. Got a call from Dan a week later that the action and barrel were together headspaced and on the way back the following week. No complaints from me.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I think I will stick with getting well known good smith's to chamber my bartlien blanks and not deal with any of this crap.