MEASURING RIM THICKNESS

[oldfatguy]

Been measuring 22lr & 17 HMR rim thickness with the Hornady gauge. All well and good until I noticed that a.040” rim measures .041” or .042” when turned 180 degrees.

looking for a better mouse trap. Thanks.

OFG

 

[RTH1800]

Neil Jones Rimfire Gauge.
Fully adjustable.
I think I have an extra if you need one.

 

[oldfatguy]

Neil Jones Rimfire Gauge.
Fully adjustable.
I think I have an extra if you need one.

Thanks for the reply & offer. Set up a gauge using the cone shaped Hornady holder and a dial indicator. so far is consistent. Will look into the Neil Jones gauge.

OFG

 

[gkgeiger]

Waste of time with good ammo.

 

[lariat]

Something to note: if you are using calipers it’s a tricky thing: calipers have a +/- tolerance of 0.002”. If you happen to hit the radius on the shell between the case wall and the rim you could be even more off. When you really want to know, mics and tools that allow only for the rim to be measured are the best answer.

Also, I know it’s an expense that seems unnecessary but having the measuring equipment checked every so often (especially if dropped) is good insurance.

 

[oldfatguy]

Waste of time with good ammo.

Good ammo is a bit hard to come by these days so I’ll sort what I have.

OFG

 

[GetReal]

Good ammo is a bit hard to come by these days so I’ll sort what I have.

OFG

whatcha shootin ?

 

[oldfatguy]

Something to note: if you are using calipers it’s a tricky thing: calipers have a +/- tolerance of 0.002”. If you happen to hit the radius on the shell between the case wall and the rim you could be even more off. When you really want to know, mics and tools that allow only for the rim to be measured are the best answer.

Also, I know it’s an expense that seems unnecessary but having the measuring equipment checked every so often (especially if dropped) is good insurance.

Yes calipers are not the best for precision measurements. Makes the Neil Jones gauge look better.

OFG

 

[oldfatguy]

whatcha shootin ?

CCI SV and Wolf Match Extra in a CZ 453.

OFG

 

[justin amateur]

Silly question time...how does measuring the thickness of the cartridge rim,
in any way improve accuracy with rimfire ammunition?

Does it indicate the amount of primer in the case?

Does it verify the quantity of powder loaded?

Does it provide information regarding brass hardness or volume?

Does it do anything about the bullet damage incurred during manufacture?

Does it improve bullet seating depth or angle?

Does it affect primer/powder chemistry in any way?

Does it change external ballistics at all?

Just curious... I can't think of anything that measuring rim thickness can do
except, maybe, show just how poor the quality control is with rimfire ammunition.

I suppose it's something to do when the weather is lousy and ya' can't do anything else.

Could it be an exercise in quantum entanglement whereby the similarity of the actions performed
creates a subatomic resonance, causing all the cartridges so treated, to behave similarly?

Things that make me go, hmmmmm. Ya' know?

 

[AZ Dan]

Silly question time...how does measuring the thickness of the cartridge rim,
in any way improve accuracy with rimfire ammunition?

Does it indicate the amount of primer in the case?

Does it verify the quantity of powder loaded?

Does it provide information regarding brass hardness or volume?

Does it do anything about the bullet damage incurred during manufacture?

Does it improve bullet seating depth or angle?

Does it affect primer/powder chemistry in any way?

Does it change external ballistics at all?

Just curious... I can't think of anything that measuring rim thickness can do
except, maybe, show just how poor the quality control is with rimfire ammunition.

I suppose it's something to do when the weather is lousy and ya' can't do anything else.

Could it be an exercise in quantum entanglement whereby the similarity of the actions performed
creates a subatomic resonance, causing all the cartridges so treated, to behave similarly?

Things that make me go, hmmmmm. Ya' know?

Barrel headspace X may like rim thickness Y better than a rim thickness of Z. Thought to eliminate the odd flyer.

I've done it for a while on various ammo. Does it really end up making a difference? Maybe...sometimes.

For a cheap ammo like Rem Golden Bullet, it can make a significant difference. For ammo like Lapua Center-X, it does not.

From some moderate testing I did a while back, it turned a 2.5" group into a 1.5" group at 50 yards when I sorted out headspace for the Rem Golden Bullet.

Similar testing on Lapua Center X, some SK Rifle Match, and a few other high end brands....no visible difference....maybe a 0.05" difference.

 

[justin amateur]

I thought about it some more. Nope I can't see it helping.
It doesn't provide any information regarding the rest of the cartridge components.
No effect on atmospheric conditions, also as temperature changes
so do the dimensions of the cartridges and the receiver/breach.
After a bit of research on line, it appears to be a placebo.
Doesn't actually change anything, except increasing the optimism of the practitioner.

Theories, Myths, and Fables of Accuracy tested for 22 Long Rifle Ammunition

Blieker Test 3

 

[RTH1800]

Most of the research I read in past indicated improvement in accuracy with lower grade ammo. No improvement with high quality ammo. Attributed to consistent headspace.

 

[justin amateur]

RT, the actual testing results done under controlled conditions,
large sample sizes, not a single box of 50, all show no statistically relevant improvement.
If you test a single box, base y'er results on a single 5 shot group, y'er gonna pull an incorrect conclusion.
That's what I see on most of the supposed "tests" posted on line.

You know how much I like my "large" sample sizes when testing.

 

[RTH1800]

You can look it up and decide.
You are simply guessing with no testing.
How is that a valid conclusion?

 

[justin amateur]

RT...what makes you think I haven't tried it?

B14R Ammo testing, to sort or not to sort, THAT is the question....

Ammo test, to sort by weight, rim thickness or both? I just got in a new batch of SK Long Range Match so first I sorted 250 rounds by weight, then I took all the ones of a mid-range weight and rim thickness sorted them. Went to the 50 yd range today and first shot unsorted, 5 groups of 3 rounds...

www.snipershide.com

I'm so OCD I've even tried weight sorting a few times...

Weight sorting 17hmr

2.5 hours and 500 rounds of 17 gr v-max weighed, bottom end is 39.6 grains,top end is 41.0 grains weight ...number...muzzle velocities grains ...................feet per second 39.6..........3.....2723, 2704, 2677 39.7..........2.....2559, 2578 39.8..........3....2496, 2549, 2510...

www.rimfirecentral.com

 

[RTH1800]

Justin,
Excellent, thanks. I am not surprised you have tested it. I tried it on Eley ammo with no discernable result. I did not test the common ammo that it is reputed to provide improvement upon. I'll take your word for it.
Thanks.
RTH

 

[AGrizz]

Been measuring 22lr & 17 HMR rim thickness with the Hornady gauge. All well and good until I noticed that a.040” rim measures .041” or .042” when turned 180 degrees.

looking for a better mouse trap. Thanks.

OFG

Just buy better ammunition and spend your limited time shooting.

 

[oldfatguy]

Just buy better ammunition and spend your limited time shooting.

Limited time? No, time is something I have plenty of. CenterX and anything SK not so much to be found right now.

OFG

 

[RTH1800]

OK, here is a plan. I will ship you a Jones RF gauge for 25.00. You get with Justin and work out an acceptable test criteria. Test it and report back. I think these gauges cost about 70 plus shipping new.

 

[spife7980]

I dont myself but I bought the hornady stuff to do it last christmas for my dad as I thought he might like to do something like that once he is done cracking pecans at night infront of the tv. He hasnt yet either. We shoot standing rest and offhand so we wont gain anything from it.

BUT we do shoot at that rimfire club and the member that drives to raton every year for their benchrest contests rim and weight sorts his. He says out of a brick of 500 tenex he may only find 1 or 2 outliers. But thats 1 or 2 that wont ruin his groups without notice.

So really its mater of what are you willing to put up with.

 

[RTH1800]

Did he test the outliers? I would like to see that.
Thanks

 

[spife7980]

Did he test the outliers? I would like to see that.
Thanks

Im know he did at some point as hes been doing rimfire br for 40 years or something ridiculous to me but whether he bothers at this point anymore of just uses them in offhand or practice Im not sure.

 

[justin amateur]

Test criteria?

1 brick of what is available.
ID the cartridges 1-500 (sharpies work well for that, yes, been there done that)
Sort by weight, record by ID number
Sort by overall cartridge length, record by ID number
Sort by rim thickness, record by ID number
Sort by visual defects(dents, dings, chips, scratches, crimp problems, seating), record by ID number

If y'er gonna go OCD, go all the way.

Shoot indoors from a one piece rest at 50 yards, one dot-one shot
recording both point of impact relative to point of aim,
as well as the muzzle velocity of each cartridge, record by ID number.

Load into a spreadsheet for data mining.

Results will show sorting by culling visible cartridge defects, will provide the most consistent trajectories

Me? I'd rather just buy better ammo.

 

[SporterII]

I have this set from my rimfire days
50.00 plus mail if you need

 

[RTH1800]

Even is a some wanted to do this an indoor range is going to be an issue for most folks.

 

[justin amateur]

I hear ya' RT.
But if y'er really going to test by cartridge dimensions/weight/appearance
y'er gonna have to do so in a manner which excludes atmospheric conditions and the shooters lack of skill.
Doing it outdoors at 200 yards will provide general information, but might be affected by extraneous variables.
Ya' think?

 

[RTH1800]

Wind and temp effect RF at 200 yards? Really? I had no idea. Need to test more I guess.

 

[justin amateur]

Welcome to the 'hide, where wise-assery is not just an attitude, it's a philosophy.

 

[RTH1800]

Yes, but it's all in good natured fun!
Not sure you saw the thread but I have about a mile of 32" pipe and was considering building a bit of tunnel but the small dia and alignment issues made it seem inadvisable. But 50 yards could be a cool deal. Thinking.....

 

[Gleedus]

Test criteria?

1 brick of what is available.
ID the cartridges 1-500 (sharpies work well for that, yes, been there done that)
Sort by weight, record by ID number
Sort by overall cartridge length, record by ID number
Sort by rim thickness, record by ID number
Sort by visual defects(dents, dings, chips, scratches, crimp problems, seating), record by ID number

If y'er gonna go OCD, go all the way.

Shoot indoors from a one piece rest at 50 yards, one dot-one shot
recording both point of impact relative to point of aim,
as well as the muzzle velocity of each cartridge, record by ID number.

Load into a spreadsheet for data mining.

Results will show sorting by culling visible cartridge defects, will provide the most consistent trajectories

Me? I'd rather just buy better ammo.

Soooo.... we have this little ELR competition in canada......
One of the guys has had opportunity to test significantly more ammo then I have and he likes excel as much as I do lol. Note his testing is geared to ELR ok.
Rim thickness on eley sport level ammo shows smaller ES in velocity after throwing the thick and thin rims out. On eley match and better rim thickness is extremely consistent and sorting is pointless.
Now weight.
Sorting by weight has merit not for velocity but for consistent drop. He pulled light and and heavy cartridges apart and weighed the case powder and both the cases and the powder charge are consistent but the bullets were giving the overall weight difference.
1gr heavier bullet is the same as a 18 fps variation in velocity.
To put this into perspective at 100 yards 18 fps or 1 gr bullet weight is 0.1" go to 500 yards this becomes 0.4 MIL
Sorting ammo can have its place but at the distances that most people are shooting we probably are not good enough to shoot the difference. You would also need to shoot a lot of ammo to prove the difference. At ELR some of these details show up. But perhaps not because of what people think they are accomplishing by sorting.
Now we also have to consider BC variation too 3% is the same at 500 yards as 18 fps and 1gr. Brian Litz work would show a BC SD of 3%+ on average with a 22lr so a 6%+ ES in BC...... hmm so the BC variation can mask any gains I may have had. I can also have a run of bullets with the same BC and I think my sorting helped. BC variation can come from a bullet engaging at a slight angle to the bore because lead is so soft so any cartridges that are crooked or bullets that are deformed would cause BC fluctuation.

We want to go for the biggest gains first. Sort out all the damaged crooked dont look like the rest first. We want our BC to be consistent. Then if your shooting cheaper ammo sure sort rims and get you ES down. Weight? You have no idea if the case is causing the variation or the bullet so unless its therapy forget it. If your shooting quality ammo. Sorting rims? Therapy. Weight? Doing ELR or OCD yes ok go for it. Dont get tied up in knots trying to do something that the gains are less then you are able to shoot day to day.

Now having said all of that I will back track slightly. Shooting has a lot of mental to it. If sorting your ammo gives you peace of mind you likely with shoot better with sorted ammo.

Most important have fun doing what ever your doing!

 

[justin amateur]

Rim thickness on eley sport level ammo shows smaller ES in velocity after throwing the high and low out.

No, I will not throw out the high and the low....what? Didja think I would let that slip by?

All those numbers are part of the data, no selective editing allowed.
That's like showing a 3 shot group at 100 yards after cropping out the 2 fliers and claiming "all day long".
Not on my watch. I've got my eyes on you, all four of 'em.

Trying to slip that one past me...ain't happening.

 

[Gleedus]

Rim thickness on eley sport level ammo shows smaller ES in velocity after throwing the high and low out.

No, I will not throw out the high and the low....what? Didja think I would let that slip by?

All those numbers are part of the data, no selective editing allowed.
That's like showing a 3 shot group at 100 yards after cropping out the 2 fliers and claiming "all day long".
Not on my watch. I've got my eyes on you, all four of 'em.

Trying to slip that one past me...ain't happening.

Lol no no if you take the thick and thin rims out!

 

[justin amateur]

Hey, wasn't me that left one hanging over the net.
Do that here at the 'hide, ya' gotta expect the spike, eh?

 

[Gleedus]

Thats what I enjoy about a few of the guys on here! Keeps everyone on track. Why take it personal may as well have fun eh? Whats the point if we cant have a bit of comradery?



Note: I have edited my post .....

 

[justin amateur]

You may have edited y'ers, but I'm not.
What happens on the 'hide, stays on the 'hide.

And the wise-assery goes on and on and on....

 

[AGrizz]

Limited time? No, time is something I have plenty of. CenterX and anything SK not so much to be found right now.

OFG

Step up a little bit https://goodshootinginc.com/rimfire-ammuntion/lapua-ammunition/

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For all your shooting needs, browse the full collection of ammunition and accessories at Killough Shooting Sports. Same day dispatch on orders before 2 pm.

www.killoughshootingsports.com

Keep an eye on these for a while.

Ammunition | Rimfire Rifle Ammunition | Creedmoor Sports

Creedmoor Sports carries a variety of .22 rimfire rifle ammunition for the competitive smallbore shooter.

www.creedmoorsports.com

 

[1bamashooter]

Limited time? No, time is something I have plenty of. CenterX and anything SK not so much to be found right now.

OFG

Check out https://www.killoughshootingsports.com/107-eley-ammunition
Dan will hook you up

 

[oldfatguy]

AGrizz and 1bamashooter thanks for the sources to add to the usual suspects.

OFG