I am currently trying to put together a .223 AR pattern rifle that I will be using out to about 750yards. Right now I have an LMT MLC (m lok MRP) chassis, stock barrel, and a Triji Accupower 1-8x. So as y'all can probably tell, this isn't a super precision rig, but I do want it to be a sub MOA rifle with good factory match ammo. I am having a 14.5" LaRue stealth barrel converted, but have recently figured out there isn't all that much love for LaRue around here. Is this a quality issue? Looking at Bartlein and Krieger barrels, they are about twice the price and the wait for the barrel to be made plus converted isn't that great for my lack of patience. Do y'all think this setup will do the job or do I really need to start looking into a different barrel. Remember the goal is 0.5-0.9moa with something like FGMM or mk262. Thanks
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Medium Range .223 Rifle
- Thread starter midSCarolina
- Start date
I have one AR that will consistently hold under a minute. It cost a fortune. The whole thing is billet milled, direct impingement, and the barrel is heavy varmint contour. It weighs twice what a regular Colt weighs.
That said, you don’t really need it to be THAT precise to have fun banging steel with one out to about 600yds.
My advice is to get a heavy, twisty (1:7) barrel for it. Chasing sub MOA is going to cost you more than it’s worth.
That said, you don’t really need it to be THAT precise to have fun banging steel with one out to about 600yds.
My advice is to get a heavy, twisty (1:7) barrel for it. Chasing sub MOA is going to cost you more than it’s worth.
You're going to be chasing your ass in circles trying to get a .5MOA semi auto in 5.56. Then it may not like FGMM or MK262 on top of that. Way too many variables.
Realistically 1 MOA that is CONSISTANT 1 MOA is doable. The ranges you are shooting at is where the wind will matter way more than a .5/1MOA gun difference. Just today I took my Mk12 Mod Holland (which is a very, very constant 1MOA gun) out past 700 with 15-20MPH wind and 25+gusts while a storm was coming in. It was kicking the rounds anywhere from 2 to 3.2MIL of wind. At 500 yards I can hit a MOA sized target 19/20 times on average with this gun.
For 5.56 you need velocity and you need a minimum 16" 1:7 barrel. But again, realistically, you need to think of a semi as a 1MOA-1.25MOA gun or you'll burn your barrel out trying to find a load and 'fix' the gun.
Realistically 1 MOA that is CONSISTANT 1 MOA is doable. The ranges you are shooting at is where the wind will matter way more than a .5/1MOA gun difference. Just today I took my Mk12 Mod Holland (which is a very, very constant 1MOA gun) out past 700 with 15-20MPH wind and 25+gusts while a storm was coming in. It was kicking the rounds anywhere from 2 to 3.2MIL of wind. At 500 yards I can hit a MOA sized target 19/20 times on average with this gun.
For 5.56 you need velocity and you need a minimum 16" 1:7 barrel. But again, realistically, you need to think of a semi as a 1MOA-1.25MOA gun or you'll burn your barrel out trying to find a load and 'fix' the gun.
Saying 0.5moa is definitely stretching it... i honestly just want it to average under 1moa... 0.9moa is fine with me but i want it to do a little better than 1.5 right now. I live in an apartment complex so I don't have the space to reload at the moment but if I try 5-10 factory loads, i would hope to find one that is consistently 1moa or less. It doesn't have to be the ammo I listed above... any will do... i just need to find the right one. Like i said, it is a 14.5" .223 so it isn't some super long range super precision rig, but I would like it to be able to get hits consistently out to 750y and be effective out to about 500y with the right ammo. I figured to Larue barrel was the best way to get there without having to spend 1k on a barrel (after having it converted to fit the chassis).
With a good barrel 1 MOA is easy, and 3/4 MOA is doable. We NRA highpower shooters who grew up with the AR-15 as our service rifle know how to get there pretty easily. Load development with quality match bullets in the 75 - 77 grain range and powders like Varget, Reloder 15, and 8208 is not that difficult to get 3/4.
Tighter than that, listen to the above who tell you it's a waste of time. If you want a consistent 1/2 MOA rifle, be prepared to pay for a really high quality bolt action rifle.
Tighter than that, listen to the above who tell you it's a waste of time. If you want a consistent 1/2 MOA rifle, be prepared to pay for a really high quality bolt action rifle.
Easy Button for a 600 yard x ring capable rifle:
20" White Oak barrel
Any forged upper
Any forged lower
QUALITY trigger (meaning Geissele)
24 - 24.5 grains of one of the powders I mentioned above
CCI BR / Rem 7/12 / Federal Gold Medal primers
Hornady 75 HPBT or Sierra 77 MK loaded to 2.25" + / - a few thou for best accuracy
20" White Oak barrel
Any forged upper
Any forged lower
QUALITY trigger (meaning Geissele)
24 - 24.5 grains of one of the powders I mentioned above
CCI BR / Rem 7/12 / Federal Gold Medal primers
Hornady 75 HPBT or Sierra 77 MK loaded to 2.25" + / - a few thou for best accuracy
I may do an 18" build like this soon and do the whole fixed stock and more magnification than 8x... something that is built specifically for accuracy, but I don't really want to stick that long of a barrel in my MRP chassis. I do agree that 18s are better suited for the AR version of "long" range precision.
I feel like I have seen Larue barrels that average in the .8-.9 range with stuff like FGMM, which honestly is just a .1 or .2 over what I am seeing from kreiger. But then I feel like there is the Larue sucks crowd, and didn't know if it was a personal thing or a legit issue with the products. I use geissele ssa-e's in my scoped ARs and geissele mounts, but I was hoping y'all would have some insight on the barrels are actually sub-moa capable or not.
This is initial load workup from this weekend. 16” BCM SS410 midlength with SAMR chamber, 73gr ELD-M and 8208xbr. Will probably chop the barrel to 14.5 since it’s usually suppressed. Seating depth test at 23.4gr is next... Handloading as opposed to factory ammo always helps.
No personal experience with Larue, but Rainer sells a Rock Creek AR barrel that should shoot well, as an alternative to krieger. In the grand scheme of things, a $350 barrel is nothing compared to gas going to the range/hunting. False economy in my opinion.
No personal experience with Larue, but Rainer sells a Rock Creek AR barrel that should shoot well, as an alternative to krieger. In the grand scheme of things, a $350 barrel is nothing compared to gas going to the range/hunting. False economy in my opinion.
Actually, that is pretty much THE description of a "Precision" rifle; and the the real question then becomes are you talking about <MOA of 3 shots, 5 shots or 10 shots & 10 is really all that matters....................& it's pretty tough to get there on a daily basis, & far harder than most either realize or will acknowledge. And you are also talking about factory loaded ammo, which rarely will equal the very best tailored handloads.
In other words, you are seeking the Holy Grail & you seem to be thinking it's an mundane & everyday occurrence, which it most surely ain't.
MM
OP,
Read MM's post just above.
Much of the above advice is very good. Get a good trigger. Get a good, not cheap barrel. Or, you can get real lucky. The further you shoot the less likely you are to get lucky.
Douglas makes a very accurate MK 12 barrel. Uniformly excellent for speed and accuracy. Kevin at HCS might be able to help if he still does that.
I shot two 5 shot groups at 400 meters last night to confirm zero. Could not see holes though scope. Walked out, looked and pulled target. Both were under 2". Very calm conditions near dusk. The best group was about 1.25". I did not measure them I was more concerned with getting a no wind zero. But all my parts are top end. Except the Douglas barrel which is slightly on the mid level price range. KAC, Geissele, S&B Ultra Short etc.
Read MM's post just above.
Much of the above advice is very good. Get a good trigger. Get a good, not cheap barrel. Or, you can get real lucky. The further you shoot the less likely you are to get lucky.
Douglas makes a very accurate MK 12 barrel. Uniformly excellent for speed and accuracy. Kevin at HCS might be able to help if he still does that.
I shot two 5 shot groups at 400 meters last night to confirm zero. Could not see holes though scope. Walked out, looked and pulled target. Both were under 2". Very calm conditions near dusk. The best group was about 1.25". I did not measure them I was more concerned with getting a no wind zero. But all my parts are top end. Except the Douglas barrel which is slightly on the mid level price range. KAC, Geissele, S&B Ultra Short etc.
X10, and I know my match AR would not shoot under a minute without ammo tuned to it. I sort of feel the same way I do about rimfire. If you're not hand loading you're just trying to get lucky and find an ammo the rifle likes.
That little 5-20 Ultra Short is really the perfect blending of precision optic and compact light scope. The NF 2.5-10x24 is the other scope I use in the field. It's my Ray Charles , "What they won't get, I don't need." 
The NF's have the Mil-R reticule and the US's have P4F or H59 depending on use.
The NF's have the Mil-R reticule and the US's have P4F or H59 depending on use.
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I typically shoot 5 round groups but I’ll start going for 10 now that you are making me feel like a chump haha. I am fairly new to precision shooting so there is definitely a degree of ignorance there but I do feel like averaging 1” at 100 yards with 5 round groups is an obtainable goal, even with a semi. But maybe it isn’t. It is somewhat frustrating when I can get a box of 140gr Hornady Match and hammer out 4 sub-MOA groups in a row through a Bergara HMR without really thinking too much about it and then pull out an AR that costs twice as much and struggle to get results that are even remotely similar. It was shooting about 2moa with surplus ammo (PPU and Wolf Gold) but actually put out several 1.5” and one 0.8” (@100y with PPU). Then I ran some mk262 and Hornady through it and was getting 3-6” groups. I know a lot has to do with finding the right ammo for your barrel, but still, it can be frustrating.
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The moa to 750 yards is what’s going to be the problem. Not a easy task for any rifle let alone a gas short barreled 223 running factory ammo. Moa to 300 yards is more obtainable for sure. But you never know until you try the stars just might align.
Through a 14.5” 1:8, about how far out do you think a 77gr can go before starting to destabilize?
The range for a 77 gr in a 14.5” barrel and factory imi ammo should be supersonic to about 800 yards. I shoot a target regularly off of my back porch prone from bipod 785 yards. It is not a easy shot when the wind is blowing. When the wind is calm it is easy to ring it with a 6.5 Creedmoor. Honestly I have never tried a 223 on that 785 yard target. But I intend to once I get my origin 7.5 twist Mullerworks assembled. Will be shooting the 75 eld if I can get it to group. I do however have experience with 50 gr vmax bullets at long range at prairie dog sized targets. The 50 gr vmax at 3400 fps at the muzzle is running out of accuracy for me right about 550 yards.
This is an inexpensive off-the-shelf WOA varmint upper. 18" 1:12" twist, Wilson SS button rifled bull barrel. 10-shot group was made in under 60 seconds at 100 yds and measured ~0.83" center-to-center. In the other picture, left group is 100 yds, right group is 200 yds. 52 gr Berger match bullet, 23.7 gr LT-32, Nosler brass, CCI BR-4 primers loaded to 2.260" COAL. This just isn't that hard. Buy decent stuff from vendors that are well known for accuracy and ignore the tacticool peer pressure - that is, if you care about accuracy and precision.
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I have a 14.5" KAC that I love. It shoots around .75 moa at 100 with 3 different loads. Some groups are a little smaller, and some are a little bigger, but .75 is about where it is at. When I mentioned this to a friend at KAC, he said they could not guarantee that level of precision, but that most of their 5.56 carbines are around an inch to an inch and a quarter. Seems pretty reasonable to me for a lightweight short 5.56. Beats my heavier longer Noveske everyday, though I would love to try a WOA sometime.
That little 5-20 Ultra Short is really the perfect blending of precision optic and compact light scope. The NF 2.5-10x24 is the other scope I use in the field. It's my Ray Charles , "What they won't get, I don't need."
The NF's have the Mil-R reticule and the US's have P4F or H59 depending on use.
The NF 2.5-10x42 is my field scope on a SCAR-17. Nice and light, holds up to abuse, fine for a 1 MOA 600 yardish rifle and I like the bigger objective as my shots are usually dawn/dusk at pigs or deer. Or flip on the PEQ2 for pigs and predators in between lol.
750 yds isn't mid-range but yes, 52 gr bullets aren't good for 750 yds. 22" 1:8" twist, bull barrel, fluted WOA varmint upper with carbon fiber float tube. This one is not inexpensive, but it will shoot 0.6 MOA 5-shot groups at 200 yds with 77gr Sierra TMK, 25.3 gr 2520, CCI BR-4, and LC brass. Supersonic to 1k yds. Dtech 20P - also sub MOA and supersonic to 750 yds.
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Yeah, I've got 3 KAC's & what they are saying is about par, on average............but they are very, very consistent & generally don't throw fliers unless I jerk one or 2, or 3 as I just don't shoot all that much anymore & it shows on the targets at long range.
And yes, anyone who thinks 750 yds is mid-range is somewhat misled.........maybe it's mid-range for a highly accomplished military shooter or high end competitor, but it's surely not mid-range for the average Mall Ninja with a mid-range AR (pun intended).
It takes pretty good equipment & a pretty good shooter to CONSISTENTLY shoot MOA at 100 yds or any range further. IMO.
Here are targets from 3 different guns, & it's obvious on at least 2 of them that me, the jerk behind the trigger, is the weak link; the 3rd rifle with a 16" Rise barrel is a very light carbine with only a 6x scope, so likely those targets could be improved a little with more mag on the scope.
MM
Mensajd,
Posting about 750 yard MOA AR’s and showing 200 yard groups is foolish and unrelated.
When you first started on this thread you did not even know it was about shooting at 750 yards. Your now edited smart assed replies proved it. If you have no expirence with your 5.56 AR’s at 750 yards, why post or criticize those who do?
Posting about 750 yard MOA AR’s and showing 200 yard groups is foolish and unrelated.
When you first started on this thread you did not even know it was about shooting at 750 yards. Your now edited smart assed replies proved it. If you have no expirence with your 5.56 AR’s at 750 yards, why post or criticize those who do?
Okay. So first, I know some of what I will say may have been covered, albeit in a different way. But here's this...
750 yards is a long goddamn way for a 22. You need to gitcher head straight on that, or you're setting yourself up for frustration. 600 yards was about the designed limit of effectiveness of the round and 20" platform; despite the intervening decades and technological improvements, 600 yards is still where shits starts to get hurriedly hairy.
I shoot the round in high level competition at 1,000 yards, and do so pretty regularly. The rifle I use is probably an 8" gun out there, if I get ideal conditions....then again, I'm only an 8" holder, so wtf...
What is also no bullshit is that it took the last 1% of specialization of EVERYthing the industry can muster to bring me to that point. The barrel and chamber got everything that can be had, smithed by a man who has himself won what I aspire to win. The loads are Benchrest grade... Custom Arbor dies, pin gauges, PMA Turned Lapua, 3x sorted Berger 90s...quite literally ad nauseum. The shooter also has somewhere north of 14,000 trigger cycles on this rifle.
The loads I use at long range are good enough for groups at 100 yards with verticals in the zeroes and teens, and overal groups in the threes.
I'm not bragging, I'm stating truths so you understand what a pain in the ass long range .223 AR-15's can be.
I'm also gonna tell you---against some of the things in this thread---that Long Range ARs can be just goddamned brilliant at times. Truly laugh-on-the-drive-home shit, right? Just yesterday, I punched a ~1.8" group at 300, from magazine, with 77 Sierras that are jumping probably 0.200".
That rifle and I are best of friends, but she was a costly bitch.
So now this:
I think German here is being a little conservative. Maybe he doesn't have a rifle that will do it, or maybe he doesn't choose to build handloads at a level to get it done, but either way, his advices are not too terribly off.
If you intend to use FACTORY ammunition, then you damned well better be custom chambering for THAT round. The trouble, then, is that building a reamer for a given round is predicated on the idea that you actually KNOW what the round needs.
You, presumably, do not know that for any of the above match-ish grade rounds.
Now, it CAN be done. Look what Mike Rescigno pulls from 168 GMM .308. But to do that, he has had to accumulate a fair pile of knowledge on WHAT to do to the reamer for an INDIVIDUAL type of barrel blank...who's, nobody knows.
Man, it's a helluva lot easier to just load for one.
Montana, maybe you read what I said above. Don't sell yourself short...750 is not mid-range for anybody. Not military, not competition. Not for this cartridge, nor this rifle. "Mid" range ends at 5-600 yards for a 20" AR.
Revise that to about 400 yards for a 14" door-kicker.
Last bit for the OP: Build a rifle to do what you are asking. Or don't.
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Natdscott,
Great post & I completely agree with everything that you said; I was trying to be somewhat diplomatic.
The OP is thinking that 750 is more or less routine & a given, which for sure, it ain't.
MM
Sorry... yes, I would consider 750 "long range" for this particular rifle. I honestly believe 750 is toward the edge of its effective range. Also hitting a 10" plate at 750 with some degree of consistency is probably as much as I could ask for. For me, my short range is my 10.5" w/ Aimpoint (0-300), my mid range is something 14.5-18" with LPVO (300-750), and then long range is 750+ and that is for my 6.5 CM bolt action. I wasn't expect to just plink around at 750 with a 14.5" barrel... I said medium range bc this rifle will fill that 300-750y role.
14.5" barrel = 3=400 yards, maybe 500 at a big stretch; definitely not 750.
JMHO, YMMV
MM
JMHO, YMMV
MM
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In 2004, with stock M4's (14.5") and green tip, we routinely brought new operators to 600 yards on the green men. Not 100%, obviously, and the target is pretty big by today's standards. They were also using either irons or aimpoints/Trijicon reflex's or occasionally, an ACOG.
At 500, hits were a given, and they had to qual at that distance too.
Now, these guys were not amazing marksmen, but none of them were first learning to shoot either.
I would never build a 14.5" for extended range shooting, but don't sell them short either. Todays guns and ammo are way better then what we were using back then.
eta: some of those M855 rounds did enter the target sideways...we always chalked it up to very worn guns, but maybe not.
At 500, hits were a given, and they had to qual at that distance too.
Now, these guys were not amazing marksmen, but none of them were first learning to shoot either.
I would never build a 14.5" for extended range shooting, but don't sell them short either. Todays guns and ammo are way better then what we were using back then.
eta: some of those M855 rounds did enter the target sideways...we always chalked it up to very worn guns, but maybe not.
I've pushed several 14.5s out to 400 and it really isn't that bad to hit a 10" plate at that distance even with the shorter barrel. I think you are selling the AR a little short. Not me but just a random vid VVV
I’d be happy to hit 500-600 to be honest, but 750 is really stretching it. Especially with that short of a barrel. But I’m not that good of a shot either way. The math just doesn’t add up for me, but I’m sure the truly dedicated can pull it off. It’s just a matter of asking yourself if it’s worth it.
OP - Pay attention to the posts by people who actually shoot at 700+ yards, not someone who is extrapolating based on their 100 yard groups. At 700 yards any kind of wind, particularly if it is variable is going to screw up your groups, particularly if you are shooting out of a 14.5" barrel. Plus semi-auto are just harder to shoot than a bolt gun. You have to have excellent fundamentals or you are going to be a contributing factor to your failure to achieve MOA. Your Trijicon 8x scope is also going to hold you back, if you're trying to achieve sub MOA at 700+ yards, as will the fact that you don't reload. Honestly, if you can get fairly consistent hits on a 12" plate at 700 yards with an AR, you (and the gun) are doing pretty well and, as a practical matter, your rifle is giving you all the accuracy you need.
Agreed that you can't extrapolate short range (100/200 yd) results to long range shooting, though they are correlated. But if one can't shoot small short range groups with a particular gun, then forget about shooting long range. Reread @natdscott's post to see the level of short range precision he requires to get the long range results he achieves.
I agree... I would be happy with that. I typically don't get wrapped up in groups but as you get out to that 600-750 range, a 2moa rifle is shooting 12-15" groups which makes hitting a 10-12" plate just as much luck as skill. I just want to make sure the rifle is capable of hitting 10-12" plate at that distance IF I do my part. I agree that going out and shooting for 5" groups at 750y is going to be a frustrating and pretty futile endeavor. I also understand that 8x isn't ideal for that distance, but again, the intended purpose is effectiveness and not really shooting groups. The center crosshairs are .75moa as it is but i typically just dial 1 or 1.5 mil short and use one to the thinner hashmarks if I need to be more precise.
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