F T/R Competition Meplat Uniforming and Tipping - experience thus far

[SWRichmond]

Shooting 185 Juggs in FT/R, noticed random but sometimes significant variation in the length of loaded rounds. Asked around a bit and learned that top competitors are sorting / uniforming / tipping bullets. This is something I had known about but was unwilling to dive into. I have decided to up my competition game starting this year so I bought what I need to sort by base-to-ogive, uniform meplats, and then re-tipping the bullets.

I have sorted about 500 thus far, from one lot. Statistics are very interesting. Most of the Juggs are quite uniform, but there are minor variations, and then the oddballs. My procedure is to sort by ogive to within 0.001", uniform the meplats, and then tip to a smaller tip diameter than the starting diameter.

At the same time I have switched from Re-17 to Varget, owing to actually being able to get some, and am early in the process of load development. Have not yet done any chrono of the Varget load but 100 yard results were very good: classic lower node, then opening up some, then closing again to a half inch. Based on recoil this load is not as fast as the Re-17 load was, and shooting it at 800/900/1000 proved this to be the case; I had to come up about 2 minutes to get there in spite of the tipping. I am going to look for a higher node. Saw somewhere that some of the top guys are loading so hard in FT/R that case life is 1 or 2 firings. I don't expect to go there, at least not yet. I DO want a higher node.

The initial results for the load I had time to develop, though, were quite good. Shot really very well, very little vertical compared to previous. Wind is still a bitch for me, but at 800 I had stable conditions I could see plainly and shot them, and managed to only drop one point; more than half were X's.

Back to the bullets: the oddballs are longer out of the box than the rest (base to tip) by 0.010" or more. The tips on these are noticeably smaller than the rest out of the box. After sorting by ogive and uniforming meplats, loaded rounds are all within 0.001" COL. I want to say that based on this preliminary "data" I can see the value of sorting and uniforming / tipping.

I am interested in the experiences others here have had with uniforming / tipping in F Class, and would certainly love some advice.

 

[XTR]

Saw somewhere that some of the top guys are loading so hard in FT/R that case life is 1 or 2 firings. I don't expect to go there, at least not yet. I DO want a higher node.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Someone in this forum posted that they were getting 2800 from a 22" barrel with 175s the other day.

The US F-TR team load last yr was 185Juggs in the upper 2700FPS range. If you have a throat that is long enough to seat the 185 above the neck shoulder junction (~0.168±) then you can load Varget in W-W brass in the 44 to 45.0gr range and be in the node you want. Trying to get to something higher is going to break your brass. Personal experience, it bites to start blowing primers in a match, esp. if it's the nationals or a state championship.

I don't believe that people who are pushing that hard are actually in a node, and I don't believe that the guys who are winning are running up there. I've played with brass killing loads and I couldn't get them to perform consistently.

I am interested in the experiences others here have had with uniforming / tipping in F Class, and would certainly love some advice.

I don't think that it is worth the effort for most of use to bother with it. That said, long time ago I started running my bullets in a Widden pointing die and I'm still doing it. It makes them all more uniform. Then again I shot a 600 yard match last week without pointing my 308s and put 10 out of 20 in the X-Ring. I don't thing you can see the difference in POI at 1000 yards with a 30 Cal, and I've watched a HM prone shooter shoot two strings on the same target with an RSAUM, half pointed half not, and there was not any discernible difference. Yes, I'm still pointing my bullets for 1000 yards, but I'm not bothering with trimming meplats. I don't think I could tell the difference. How much of an improvement in your precision do you expect to get from that? If you have the time and you want to do it by all means do, it can't hurt. I shoot several thousand rounds a yr. I have a hard enough time finding time to load as it is; I don't need another step in the process.

 

[Flat Tire]

I think you will have better luck with just sorting the bullets by weight. The meplat trimmers don't seem to change accuracy very much.

 

[gstaylorg]

The more individuals you talk and/or shoot with, the more things you will hear that they do to gain a competitive edge. IMO, some probably work, some may not do much more than a slight confidence improvement between the shooter's ears. If you have a .308 load shooting less than or equal to .5 MOA at 100 yd with the velocity to maintain mach 1.2+ at 1000 yd, ask yourself the question of where/how most of your points are being lost in a match. For the vast majority of us that are not up at the top of the leader board, the answer is almost universally going to be missed wind calls. Bullet sorting/trimming/pointing are great if you have the time to do it, and may gain you a point here and there during a match, which can be critical for someone contending for the win. However, improving wind reading skills will generally pay much larger dividends if you're losing most of your points to missed wind calls.

 

[XTR]

yea, what he said

 

[Down South]

Like XTR and Greg stated, if you have the time it won't hurt but realistically I don't think it makes that much difference. I trim and point and to be honest my scores in matches and groups in load work don't seem to show much difference than before i started trimming and pointing.

 

[Killshot44]

Pointing does increase BC slightly which can decrease wind drift.

The biggest benefit from bullet sorting is measuring bearing surface length, weight is not as big a factor.

 

[SWRichmond]

without a doubt most points are being lost due to wind calls. however, the odd out vertical result that used to crawl inside my head and make me wonder what was going on isn't happening now. I noticed that now I am shooting more confidently with respect to where the bullet go and I know when I see a bad result its horizontal and it's wind so I have eliminated a variable in my head if nowhere else.

I have spoken to shooters who tip but do not uniform meplats first.

how many of you at least sort by base to ogive? part of this is me experimenting with and learning about treating bullets as raw material rather than as a finished product.

 

[XTR]

how many of you at least sort by base to ogive? part of this is me experimenting with and learning about treating bullets as raw material rather than as a finished product.

Again this is my personal opinion and I don't have the data to prove it, but if you are jumping 15 to 30, or jamming, then I don't think the base to ogive variations that you get in Bergers makes a difference. If you are seating close, like inside of 10thou then it could begin to get critical.

If you are jamming it 10 or 15 it's stuck in there and the variation is moot. If you are jumping far enough its going fast enough that the small difference in jumps won't effect MV. It's when you are seating close where a couple of thousandths represents half the jump or puts one bullet into the lands and another not that it can make a big difference.

I jump everything. The biggest variation I've ever seen from Bergers was almost 10thou between lots, but it didn't make any difference in the base to ogive of the assembled bullet. The ogive shape was the same and the seater put them all at exactly the same length. I guess the difference was in the thickness of the base of the jacket. I noticed it when i was pointing the new lot and they were longer and I had to move the pointer setting.

I don't mix lots during a string of fire.

 

[SWRichmond]

Thanks everyone for the replies!

 

[Killshot44]

how many of you at least sort by base to ogive?

As I mentioned, I sort not by base-to-ogive but by bearing surface length. Using two comparators on the caliper.

Bearing length differences show themselves on the chrono as well as on target at 1K. Sorting BTO is only giving you half the measurement.

Even with the Berger 6mm 105Hybrids there's a small variance in bearing surface lengths.

 

[LSandBinc]

It's my understanding tipping and uniforming is to increase BC which should also help with wind.

 

[clmayfield]

It's my understanding tipping and uniforming is to increase BC which should also help with wind.

Pointing increases BC. Meplat trimming makes the meplats more uniform, but lowers BC. Doing both is supposed to give you the best of both worlds, but I stopped doing it because I wasn't really seeing the results on paper. Who knows, I might try it out again.

Sometimes, when you get the odd flier, you have to admit that maybe it was you and not the ammo.

 

[SWRichmond]

Another range session today, found what I hope will prove to be another node at a higher powder charge.

These loads are over Berger's max recommended so do not duplicate, posted for entertainment purposes only. Don't sue me.

2nd node, the one I was using, was at 44.0 gr Varget. Went to 44.3 (still good but only loaded / shot 5), 44.6 (10 rounds, opened up 30%), then to 44.8 and put ten rounds into a nice round hole 0.6". For now, I'll take it. I know that ten rounds is not a statistically significant sample. Right now I don't have time to shoot more before the next match. Might use the 44.0gr load for midrange. These were all bullets that had been sorted by ogive, uniformed and tipped. The rifle has 2100 rounds on it; it used to like Juggernauts jumping about 0.040" and now it wants them against, and that probably accounts for a good portion of the regaining of group size I have achieved (the rifle shot very well last year with me following the throat with seating depth, then suddenly started shooting badly).

Shot the old Re-17 load and the previous 44.0 gr Varget load for comparison purposes and with expected results (Re-17 load was half group and half scatter). Note: the Re-17 rounds I shot had not been sorted, uniformed or tipped, they were leftovers, but had been reseated to be against.

Measuring each bullet has shown me the variation; it's mostly small, but there are the oddballs that are further out. I am going to continue to sort by ogive, and do trimming and pointing for 800/900/1000. I expect to wind up with some small number of culls (too short, ogive measurement puts them in a small quantity group).

What tolerances do you guys who sort, sort to? I am basically finding about 0.003" difference in base-to-ogive will encompass 95% or more of the bullets I have measured so far (all within one lot). Then there are some small number which are outside that group that are going to be used for practice, etc.

Thanks again for the helpful information and replies.

I've got another question: I am new to using Varget, and this turn at load development I think I am noticing that the powder...how do I say this, seems to be linear? A little more gets you a little more, and I haven't experienced any "peakiness" yet, where a little more gets you a lot more pressure signs. Make sense? Anyone else notice this?

I also know that at least some of this could certainly be happening inside my head.

 

[rjnallie]

My experience with pointing is somewhat limited. I mainly shoot 600 yds., berger 185's, and cannot tell the difference there. However, shooting 1000 yds. using my ballastics program, which in the past was dead on with the comeups, I am shooting higher with the pointed bullets, almost 1/2 minute. I still worry about what the process is doing to the overall bullet shape when it goes thru the die.

 

[Down South]

My experience with pointing is somewhat limited. I mainly shoot 600 yds., berger 185's, and cannot tell the difference there. However, shooting 1000 yds. using my ballastics program, which in the past was dead on with the comeups, I am shooting higher with the pointed bullets, almost 1/2 minute. I still worry about what the process is doing to the overall bullet shape when it goes thru the die.

Hey Ray, im with you on the 600 yard theory, i usually trim and point for all matches no matter what the distance but i didn't for the regionals as i was busy and didn't feel like fooling with it......At the LA. regionals in FTR at the beginning of the month with bullets i did NOT trim or point (185 juggernauts) i shot my highest score ever 1184/1200 58X for a two day match......I dropped 16 points total for the weekend and i can't remember loosing a single point to vertical (so much for my trimming and pointing reduces vertical theory....lol....), my waterline was fantastic all weekend......Guess what i wont be doing for 600 yard matches from now on!......Im still not sure bout 1000 yards, im kinda thinking about not taking the time to trim and point at all to be honest......Next 1000 yard match i shoot i won't trim and point and i'll see what happens.

 

[SWRichmond]

My experience with pointing is somewhat limited. I mainly shoot 600 yds., berger 185's, and cannot tell the difference there. However, shooting 1000 yds. using my ballastics program, which in the past was dead on with the comeups, I am shooting higher with the pointed bullets, almost 1/2 minute. I still worry about what the process is doing to the overall bullet shape when it goes thru the die.

I unfortunately couldn't tell about my own improvements in BC because I was also in the middle of load changes. I definitely saw an improvement in vertical consistency, though some of this is possibly also due to the load changes. As far as damaging the overall bullet shape is concerned, I have read where guys have tried to "over"-point bullets and bulged the body of the bullet. I have recently increased the amount of tipping force I use, but I am still not fully closing the meplats and I was warned clearly against trying to do so by the gent I bought the tipping die from. I don't have frequent enough access to long range to be able to put together and perform a better experiment.