I can't seem to find the information that I am looking for!>? I have done alot of reading on Sniperhide and by far this is my TOP FORUM> But, what is the difference between full length and match dies? I think I may know, but want to be sure before ordering. I respect the info on SH before alot of the stuff you get on the internet.......sometimes!!!
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Micrometer Seater & Full Length Size Die Set
- Thread starter lobo56
- Start date
FL is how you size the cartridge. It has nothing to do if they are "match" or not. You have FL(full length), NK(neck size only) and the seating die(seats the bullet and puts a crimp on it if you want one or not). Match dies IMHO are overrated. I have a micrometer for bullet seating. But I don't have "match" dies. Someone's else chime in on the "match dies" if you can.
Thanks for finally chiming in Doc68! I was fixing to erase my post thinking maybe I had a brain fart or something. I just know that sometimes when I go on the net to look for full length seating die, it also has one called "match" available also, but never really stated any benefits over the "non-match" die. Bench rest and Ultra also........
Thanks
Thanks
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Most shooters wont ever notice the difference between match and regular dies. I'm one of that category.
In my opinion, if you want match accuracy from your dies, meaning benchrest type precision, then you have a few options.
For seating, you want a micrometer top seating die. Period. It's not necessarily more "accurate" than regular dies but making adjustments is infinitely easier and faster. Seating dies with a micrometer top tend to have seating stems that seat off the ogive instead of the bullet tip. True match bullets have tips that vary in length. Obviously, you want to always seat off the ogive (and measure oal from the ogive) when loading for consistency and accuracy. That being said, you have a choice between micro top dies for your normal single stage press or wilson micro top dies if you have an arbor press. Either will work great. Match rifle ammo does not get crimped. Ever. Neck tension is set to hold the bullet during sizing. Having a die labeled "competition, match, national match, etc" really makes no difference. The only place that die touches your ammo is the seating stem pushing against the bullet to align and seat it. What difference does internal polish make when the die isn't really doing anything other than just holding it in place? There is no force being exerted between the die and case like done in sizing.
For sizing, you have even more options. Neck size or full length size. As said before, the neck tension is set here so you want it consistent and precise. That can happen one of two ways. Either you use a Redding S type bushing die or you have your gunsmith make you a die using the reamer he chambered your barrel with. I prefer the redding dies in full length. We know that every so often you need to bump the shoulders back. So you set up the redding die to bump the shoulder back exactly where you need it to fit your chamber properly. Meanwhile, the bushing is properly sizing the neck because you've selected the appropriate bushing. (you will probably need to buy a few bushings) So now that we've got the die set to bump the shoulder back where we need it, that's what we use to full length size when needed. Using that die to neck size only is done by backing the die off .005 either by using shims, the PMA micro adjusting lock ring, or if you spent the money up front for the micro top sizing die.
That is what it takes to load the most precise ammunition possible. Of course, that's in addition to using the highest quality components. That being said, the question becomes: Will "competition, match, or national match" labeled dies do all of that? Obviously, that answer is no. The next question is: Is that really what your rifle wants/needs? Or can you afford to cut some corners/cost? The choice isn't really up to you. If your rifle is good enough to show the difference down range, then you give it what it needs.
For seating, you want a micrometer top seating die. Period. It's not necessarily more "accurate" than regular dies but making adjustments is infinitely easier and faster. Seating dies with a micrometer top tend to have seating stems that seat off the ogive instead of the bullet tip. True match bullets have tips that vary in length. Obviously, you want to always seat off the ogive (and measure oal from the ogive) when loading for consistency and accuracy. That being said, you have a choice between micro top dies for your normal single stage press or wilson micro top dies if you have an arbor press. Either will work great. Match rifle ammo does not get crimped. Ever. Neck tension is set to hold the bullet during sizing. Having a die labeled "competition, match, national match, etc" really makes no difference. The only place that die touches your ammo is the seating stem pushing against the bullet to align and seat it. What difference does internal polish make when the die isn't really doing anything other than just holding it in place? There is no force being exerted between the die and case like done in sizing.
For sizing, you have even more options. Neck size or full length size. As said before, the neck tension is set here so you want it consistent and precise. That can happen one of two ways. Either you use a Redding S type bushing die or you have your gunsmith make you a die using the reamer he chambered your barrel with. I prefer the redding dies in full length. We know that every so often you need to bump the shoulders back. So you set up the redding die to bump the shoulder back exactly where you need it to fit your chamber properly. Meanwhile, the bushing is properly sizing the neck because you've selected the appropriate bushing. (you will probably need to buy a few bushings) So now that we've got the die set to bump the shoulder back where we need it, that's what we use to full length size when needed. Using that die to neck size only is done by backing the die off .005 either by using shims, the PMA micro adjusting lock ring, or if you spent the money up front for the micro top sizing die.
That is what it takes to load the most precise ammunition possible. Of course, that's in addition to using the highest quality components. That being said, the question becomes: Will "competition, match, or national match" labeled dies do all of that? Obviously, that answer is no. The next question is: Is that really what your rifle wants/needs? Or can you afford to cut some corners/cost? The choice isn't really up to you. If your rifle is good enough to show the difference down range, then you give it what it needs.
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M
milo 2.0
Guest
Lobo, I can only speak of Redding, but their Match dies just mean that they come with a bushing sizer die, fl or neck, neck ones have a body die included, and a competition seating die. The sizer is no different from one you purchase separately, or the one that comes in a reg set of dies.
Now they're making a hunter series, reg size die with comp seater????
Download their catalog and it will all fall into place, just a marketing ploy, mind you at it's best!
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M
milo 2.0
Guest
I'm a Redding guy, I just bought a 3 die set, 22-250, fl, neck and seater, but bought that add on Micro top, it's slick. It can't possibly be as good as a comp seater without the sliding sleeve, but will work for me as to what I have planned for the gun.
But honestly, any die brand you buy will make great ammo.
But honestly, any die brand you buy will make great ammo.
If you want "Match" quality buy a Redding Type S die set with the competition seater, Forster set with the micrometer seater, or get a custom made die. In my opinion buy FL only. As stated above it can neck size if needed. I have the Redding set and you will need a few sizing bushings depending on the brass you use due to thickness of the brass or the amount of tension you want. Then do yourself a favor and buy Hornady locking rings for your dies. (Forster locking rings are not bad)
If you only need regular dies that don't use bushings most brands are the same but I would buy Hornady for 2 reasons. You can buy a micrometer top for the seater as an option if you want and they already come with the Hornady locking rings.
If you only need regular dies that don't use bushings most brands are the same but I would buy Hornady for 2 reasons. You can buy a micrometer top for the seater as an option if you want and they already come with the Hornady locking rings.
You have some good comments and some half (or less) truths here. Bottom line first, all dies are, on average, quite good and usually produce ammo of better quality than most rigs or shooters can notice, the difference on targets between 'good' dies and the very best is often measurable in thousanths of an inch. All manufactured products have a range of acceptable tolerances and it seems all our makers use the same SAAMI tolerance ranges so what we actually get in any individual die is luck. Individual dies of the same brand will vary as much as between brands
So called "competition" dies can but don't automatically give any better results than standard dies; part of that depends on the dimensions of your own chamber(s). Micrometer seater head gimmicks are modest user aids and they don't add a thing to the accuracy/concentricity of the ammo. ALL seaters have cups that are designed to press on the ogive. Any individual FL die is, on average, as good as any others. It's quite rare for any neck sizers other than Lee's collet neck dies to actually produce some what better case necks and, on average, will give slightly longer case life but ONLY if the die is used correctly (and they often aren't used correctly)!
At the same tolerances, true comp seater dies usually load a little straighter than others but even they have tolerances and a good conventional seater and good cases can beat a more costly but loose comp seater. IMHO, Redding Competition and Forster BR seaters can, on average, be depended on to do a little better than conventional seater dies but that's more due to their "straight line" full length case and bullet alignment sleeve than any supposed 'tighter' tolerances. A "good" conventional seater and good cases can beat a sloppy costly so-called 'comp' seater.
Bottom line, individual dies vary even within a single die set and there can easily be as much variation between die types of the same brand as between brands and price is no guide to what will be in a box of any color. Every truly experienced reloader I've ever known has a variety of tool brands on his bench, each selected for features and retained or sold according to how well the individual tool actually works. Every die set I use for my truly accurate rifles is a mixture of brands.
So called "competition" dies can but don't automatically give any better results than standard dies; part of that depends on the dimensions of your own chamber(s). Micrometer seater head gimmicks are modest user aids and they don't add a thing to the accuracy/concentricity of the ammo. ALL seaters have cups that are designed to press on the ogive. Any individual FL die is, on average, as good as any others. It's quite rare for any neck sizers other than Lee's collet neck dies to actually produce some what better case necks and, on average, will give slightly longer case life but ONLY if the die is used correctly (and they often aren't used correctly)!
At the same tolerances, true comp seater dies usually load a little straighter than others but even they have tolerances and a good conventional seater and good cases can beat a more costly but loose comp seater. IMHO, Redding Competition and Forster BR seaters can, on average, be depended on to do a little better than conventional seater dies but that's more due to their "straight line" full length case and bullet alignment sleeve than any supposed 'tighter' tolerances. A "good" conventional seater and good cases can beat a sloppy costly so-called 'comp' seater.
Bottom line, individual dies vary even within a single die set and there can easily be as much variation between die types of the same brand as between brands and price is no guide to what will be in a box of any color. Every truly experienced reloader I've ever known has a variety of tool brands on his bench, each selected for features and retained or sold according to how well the individual tool actually works. Every die set I use for my truly accurate rifles is a mixture of brands.
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