Mil & MOA scope nonsense

[Zatoichi66]

Hi all,

Like many FNGs to LRPR shooting, I purchased a NIB Leupold Mark 4 6.5-20x without realizing the reticle & turrets don’t match, specifically, due the the mil/MOA reticle/turret mismatch. Frankly, I bought it like 3 years ago beg I had a rifle. I suspect that’s why it was so cheap.....and I bought it before becoming educated on such things.

Does anyone have suggestions for an “easy fix?“ I contacted Leupold re: M5 turrets & factory tweaking, but the threads I read don’t sound very positive about a factory fix. OTOH, these threads were old, so maybe Leupold is better about it?

Should I just sell the scope & get a different one with matching reticle & turrets?

Or, just shoot it & adapt & overcome?

 

[Newbie2020]

I’m sure it would be fine for a hunting rifle that you didn’t need to dial in after getting zeroed for hunting season. But for dedicated long range dialing you’ll want them to match.

But depending on what reticle it has (Christmas tree-type), with sufficient vertical holdover, you may not dial as much at distance as you would with a conventional reticle so it might not be as big of issue.


I have a 223 that needs a scope that I will not shoot past 300 yds on paper and prairie dogs. If you decide to sell it PM me. I like Leupolds.

 

[Newbie2020]

But as you can see in my profile, I’m only a private in the hide! Haha So hopefully a more experienced member chimes in.

 

[Steel head]

I’d dump it or re task it to an AR or something.

If you plan on dialing having the dials and reticle not match Is a frustration I’d definitely avoid.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

In certain cases Leupold can switch out for M5 turrets. My shooting partner has had this done.

It depends on when your scope was made. You just have to call and find out.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Have the POS mil ret changed to a MOA tree. They use to do it for a buck 60, but now I think it's 200. That scope can be had from them built that way, as they have had so many calls for it. Many, many, Mk 4's now have MOA trees in them

 

[smoothy8500]

I purchased a NIB Leupold Mark 4 6.5-20x without realizing the reticle & turrets don’t match, specifically, due the the mil/MOA reticle/turret mismatch.

I contacted Leupold re: M5 turrets & factory tweaking,

Should I just sell the scope & get a different one with matching reticle & turrets?

One issue to consider is that after changing either the M5 turret or MOA reticle, you still have a second focal plane scope. Is it worth the final cost after Leupold is done with the work?

Pro's: matching reticle/turrets and decent glass.

Con's: SFP, cost/value


Another thing to consider is the Custom Shop is still not accepting new work. Maybe in a few months? It's been a while now.

 

[Zatoichi66]

It is on an Hbar AR Compass Lake build.

I guess I should shoot it & figure it out.

 

[Zatoichi66]

It is on an Hbar AR Compass Lake build.

I guess I should shoot it & figure it out.

One issue to consider is that after changing either the M5 turret or MOA reticle, you still have a second focal plane scope. Is it worth the final cost after Leupold is done with the work?

Pro's: matching reticle/turrets and decent glass.

Con's: SFP, cost/value


Another thing to consider is the Custom Shop is still not accepting new work. Maybe in a few months? It's been a while now.

it’s a FFP scope.

 

[smoothy8500]

it’s a FFP scope.

At least you have that going for it. With Mk4's, if you just remember the conversion of each mildot is "about" 3-1/2 MOA on the turret (M1 & M2) you'll figure it out until changing them out. I am a fan of the Mk4's and still have been using them on my F-class rifles for a long time.

 

[Zatoichi66]

It’s great glass, but since it’s for distance & groups....will wait to hear from Leupold

 

[Zatoichi66]

Thank you for all your responses

 

[Zatoichi66]

Just an update: Leupold’s shop is retooling, but they can swap M5 turrets & the innards/ reticle to Mil-rads.
No price& i’m on a wait list.

stay tuned. Will update once I send it in & get it back.

 

[1moaoff]

Just shoot moa bullets at a mil target. That way they average out.

 

[ilikebmxbikes]

i have a few mk12's with mOA turrets and Mil reticles. Once you get your dope they are really quick to dial out to 800 yards. It hasnt been too big of an issue, you can still range estimate, just remember that you need to divide the Mil hashes by 3.5 to get your MOA. For any rifle that is specifically for long range and has an optic above 10x, i would 100% want matching reticle and turrets. Leupold custom shop is pretty cheap. Last time I spoke to them, turret swap was $250-300ish if i recall correctly.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Just shoot moa bullets at a mil target. That way they average out.

I'm confused, both of mine are 5.56 & 7.62 mm so they must be shot at mil targets only? I can see that when the UN arrives but what do I practice on in the mean time?

 

[smoothy8500]

I dunno what is so hard to figure out....most ballistic programs can spit out solutions in either mils or MOA. Anyways, 1 Mil hashes or dots is pretty coarse for corrections at the longer distances.

 

[M8541Reaper]

It isn’t difficult to learn to use quickly and can help make you a well-rounded shooter. Is it the most ideal and efficient setup? Lol no. But if you can spell your own name and properly put on Velcro shoes, you can effectively run a MIL/MOA abortion.

The real issue comes down to tracking, not the reticle/turret. If the turrets track true to their stated UOM, then there’s no issue other than being out of fashion. Dial, shoot, hit. Oh you want to do holds? Can you memorize more than one set of numbers at a time or just look on a DOPE chart? Then you can run an MOA/MIL combo for dials and holds. Too easy man.

As long as it tracks, I say learn it and shoot it. You can always save up to eventually get yourself something more modern (better glass, matched turrets, more elevation travel, etc).

If it doesn’t track, sell it and get something else. You can play the game of self testing/calibrating the data in your book, but it isn’t worth the hassle at that point. A scope that doesn’t track is like trying to use a tape measure that is nothing more than a thin piece of paper that your toddler put random lines and numbers on.

 

[supercorndogs]

I shot Mil/MOA scopes for a long time, it works. I wouldn't go back unless I had to.

 

[Cm308]

Throw the whole thing away. No one needs that kind of bs in their life

 

[mmahoney]

If it doesn’t track, sell it and get something else. You can play the game of self testing/calibrating the data in your book, but it isn’t worth the hassle at that point. A scope that doesn’t track is like trying to use a tape measure that is nothing more than a thin piece of paper that your toddler put random lines and numbers on.

I agree that accurate tracking is the real issue. Mil/Moa bothers me more than it should. It is the thought that ghey aren't the same that irritates me more than the lack of practicality.

 

[FLguy55]

What's there purpose of ever having turrets and reticle different? This has always baffled me.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Laughing at the amount of B/S about mis-matching,...Do any of you know why they were mismatched in the first place, an what forced matching later on?
Hint, always follow the money, always. No matter if it's on the drawing board, production floor, or shelf. Many were using what some of you call shit scopes an gear long before it was cool, or now a days what is known as Tacticool.

 

[308pirate]

Have the POS mil ret changed to a MOA tree.

File this under advice to ignore

 

[Matches Malone]

Hi all,

Like many FNGs to LRPR shooting, I purchased a NIB Leupold Mark 4 6.5-20x without realizing the reticle & turrets don’t match, specifically, due the the mil/MOA reticle/turret mismatch. Frankly, I bought it like 3 years ago beg I had a rifle. I suspect that’s why it was so cheap.....and I bought it before becoming educated on such things.

Does anyone have suggestions for an “easy fix?“ I contacted Leupold re: M5 turrets & factory tweaking, but the threads I read don’t sound very positive about a factory fix. OTOH, these threads were old, so maybe Leupold is better about it?

Should I just sell the scope & get a different one with matching reticle & turrets?

Or, just shoot it & adapt & overcome?

If you want to adapt and over come.
Moa/ 3.438= mils
Mils*3.438= Moa

 

[Matches Malone]

What's there purpose of ever having turrets and reticle different? This has always baffled me.

Nutshell history:
The military (specifically the USMC as developed by a Capt jack Cuddy) used the mil reticle exclusively for ranging using the mil formulas. The end. The adjustments in the turrets were in moa for fine adjustment. The real reason is because it was common at the time.

Also at the time, shots were not 174892929749392958 yards/meters away. A 600-800y shot was considered long range.
Tech has changed, our understanding of shooting with telescopic sights have changed as well as our understanding of ballistics as related. Thus gear has changed to fit this. To included matching reticles. Not to many people are throwing a range est out in the field anymore in any practical purpose, WITH exception.

 

[Zatoichi66]

Still waiting re: Leupold. They said they can fix it once their retooling is done.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Clear indication that someone has no clue why something was really the way it was: they attempt to ask a rhetorical question to prove their point instead of just saying it

Clear indication that someone doesn’t understand how to properly embrace technology: they cite examples of how we used to use something.

I used to use a phone book to look up phone numbers and map book for directions. It worked at the time because it was the most efficient and/or the only means necessary. You don’t see anyone trying to tell us we shouldn’t take 2.5sec to google it.

 

[Huskydriver]

Laughing at the amount of B/S about mis-matching,...Do any of you know why they were mismatched in the first place, an what forced matching later on?
Hint, always follow the money, always. No matter if it's on the drawing board, production floor, or shelf. Many were using what some of you call shit scopes an gear long before it was cool, or now a days what is known as Tacticool.

I'll take what is shit you don't know for 500 Alex....


There are a bunch of reasons why back in the day... You don't call for fire in moa do you? No it's done in mils... It's nice if you can direct fires with your rifle reticle and everyone's speaking the same units

Mismatched turrets is gayier than aides but only second behind a pure moa moa scope especially if it's a pos leupy...?

 

[Long Range 338]

You could consider this a temporary fix while you wait for Leupold or if you get it right it could be a decent long term solution. Run a tall target test on your scope and figure out how much movement you are getting in MILS. The reason to do this is because of the issue with MOA scopes using different standards. Once you know how much travel you are getting in MILS per click (7MOA should be roughly 2MILS) you can build a custom turret marked in MOA and MILS or MILS and Yards/Meters. You can have an actual turret made or you can just get the strips. You're only into it about $40 and you now have a MIL/MIL scope. Yes its not going to be exact but out to 1000 yards this should be a viable solution at least temporarily. I did this on an old SWFA MIL/MOA scope I have mounted on a varmint rifle and it is accurate on prairie dogs past 550 so it at least gets you in the ball park.

ETA: here are a couple links:

Custom Turrets – Kenton Industries

kentonindustries.com

Custom Turret Systems | Affordable Custom Turret Labels

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I'll take what is shit you don't know for 500 Alex....


There are a bunch of reasons why back in the day... You don't call for fire in moa do you? No it's done in mils... It's nice if you can direct fires with your rifle reticle and everyone's speaking the same units

Mismatched turrets is gayier than aides but only second behind a pure moa moa scope especially if it's a pos leupy...?

Laughing, your not a business person are you? Which is easier to make, a ret or erector? Lets say you have a huge stock of erectors because that is 100% of your line. The "cool guys" want mill, so to fill the gap while you are tooling for mil erectors you don't install the cool rets so as not to lose money on the erectors stocked, as the hunt scopes are not selling as fast as the "cool stuff". If you think the old scope mfg's can change direction like the wind they chase, your dreaming. They are in it to make money, not chase what could be brain farts, like some. All Mfg's use stop gap methods at some point.
Who else but Leupold was moving forward back then? When it became Tacticool, with all the money flowing from safe queen owners, an range commandos, everyone jumped into the game to be like, XXX. If we could reread some of the scope threads from back when I first got here, many would see the progression. This place,... that Frank built,... has had a huge impact on the scope market, but tacticool is not the main stay for many scope mfg's like most here think.


As far as calling for indirect fire, I've always done it using a map, an a Mk one eye ball for shifting of same, if required. For shifting fire when nothing but shoulder weapons were in use, the head dog always used 100% tracers to mark the new fun place.

Lastly if you think only xxx will work for xxx task you'll never get out of the box you live in. Much like all those who never knew or will never know, how to use a duplex ret in reverse to range a target, or use it as a BDC. Is it the best way, no it's not but you fight with what you have when the fight starts, not what you wish you had.

 

[Zatoichi66]

Thank you for the link for the turrets. I’ve emailed them. My understanding is Leupold M5 turrets will help the problem. I’m happy to just buy something rather than waiting on Leupold.

i May be building a lily, as a newb, but why make this more complicated for me?

I like the Leupold glass—why change it?

 

[Huskydriver]

Laughing, your not a business person are you? Which is easier to make, a ret or erector? Lets say you have a huge stock of erectors because that is 100% of your line. The "cool guys" want mill, so to fill the gap while you are tooling for mil erectors you don't install the cool rets so as not to lose money on the erectors stocked, as the hunt scopes are not selling as fast as the "cool stuff". If you think the old scope mfg's can change direction like the wind they chase, your dreaming. They are in it to make money, not chase what could be brain farts, like some. All Mfg's use stop gap methods at some point.
Who else but Leupold was moving forward back then? When it became Tacticool, with all the money flowing from safe queen owners, an range commandos, everyone jumped into the game to be like, XXX. If we could reread some of the scope threads from back when I first got here, many would see the progression. This place,... that Frank built,... has had a huge impact on the scope market, but tacticool is not the main stay for many scope mfg's like most here think.


As far as calling for indirect fire, I've always done it using a map, an a Mk one eye ball for shifting of same, if required. For shifting fire when nothing but shoulder weapons were in use, the head dog always used 100% tracers to mark the new fun place.

Lastly if you think only xxx will work for xxx task you'll never get out of the box you live in. Much like all those who never knew or will never know, how to use a duplex ret in reverse to range a target, or use it as a BDC. Is it the best way, no it's not but you fight with what you have when the fight starts, not what you wish you had.

So was Leupold retooling the line for 30 years? Cuz I got issued brand new leupys from 2008-2011 with mismatched turrets in the army. Sure you can call for fires with your eyeball and map or you could be way more accurate providing your data to fdc using mils but it's cool maybe they didn't do that back in the day when you were slaying.

OP there is nothing wrong with moa or mil or leupy although I like to give them crap. But why make your shooting experience harder instead of easier? Get the right tool for whatever job your trying to do.

For alot of us that means a mil mil or moa moa scope. Keep it simple

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Uncle buys on bottom line vs mission task. Just like he did long ago when Ball powder was much cheaper than extruded. Although no one wants to admit it,... there is a number assigned to a GI life vs end game cost,...

 

[Long Range 338]

Thank you for the link for the turrets. I’ve emailed them. My understanding is Leupold M5 turrets will help the problem. I’m happy to just buy something rather than waiting on Leupold.

i May be building a lily, as a newb, but why make this more complicated for me?

I like the Leupold glass—why change it?

Glad to help. You have to roll with what you have and can afford. Watch out, this game gets in your blood... and your pocketbook

 

[aggiez28]

I would sell and get something that matches. Just my personal opinion.