Rifle Scopes mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

AXEMAN

AXEMAN

General Nuisance
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 17, 2009
5,037
6
kansas, topeka
#1
just curious. the scope i have turns out to be mil/moa. is the difference just in the markings on the knobs or is there some internal difference in the scopes construction? im just wondering if its possible just to swap the knobs marked in moa with ones marked mil instead. the same scope is offered both ways and i didnt know if its just the knobs or the knobs and some difference in the way its made. ill learn to use it either way, im just curious. thanks
 
#2
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

Grasshopper.....the road to enlightenment sometimes is a long and varied path.....first you must junk the savage and renounce them forever.......


report back here when this task is accomplished......hop to it !
 
#3
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

The internals are different, the thread pitch would not be the same to move the reticle .1 mil or .25 MOA with one click of adjustment. Depending on the scope make and model, the factory MAY be able to change that for you.
 
#4
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Grasshopper.....the road to enlightenment sometimes is a long and varied path.....first you must junk the savage and renounce them forever.......


report back here when this task is accomplished......hop to it ! </div></div>

lol, its not even the rifle Bolt, its the scope. if its not just the knobs then ill stick with it and learn with what i have. i was just curious. seemed too easy to be true anyway. it would only be the millett id junk, im keeping the Salvage, imm too broke to start over.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The internals are different, the thread pitch would not be the same to move the reticle .1 mil or .25 MOA with one click of adjustment. Depending on the scope make and model, the factory MAY be able to change that for you. </div></div>

cool Cory, thanks. i was just hoping. like i said, i can master this just as others have. its too late to exchange it since its already mounted, plus its been months ago that i bought it. i was thinking it may be like the BDC knobs that come on some scopes and it was more about the markings on the turret than about the click detents further in. kewl
 
#6
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 051F</div><div class="ubbcode-body">axeman, post less...shoot more </div></div>

as soon as i get my back unemployment, i will. i know in your own way you think your being helpful, but really your not. as i said i want all the variables accounted for and questions answered before i squeeze off that first round. i dont even have a cleaning rod for this rifle yet. if i could have changed out knobs that would have been something that may have made this easier on me. like i said this is my first bolt gun, first time at long range shooting. there is no internet at the range thats 80 miles from my house so i want to get things straight in my mind so i am comfortable when i do get there. i know i will still have questions, but i want as many answered as possible before i get there. play nice
 
#7
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 051F</div><div class="ubbcode-body">axeman, post less...shoot more </div></div>

as soon as i get my back unemployment, i will. i know in your own way you think your being helpful, but really your not. as i said i want all the variables accounted for and questions answered before i squeeze off that first round. i dont even have a cleaning rod for this rifle yet. if i could have changed out knobs that would have been something that may have made this easier on me. like i said this is my first bolt gun, first time at long range shooting. there is no internet at the range thats 80 miles from my house so i want to get things straight in my mind so i am comfortable when i do get there. i know i will still have questions, but i want as many answered as possible before i get there. play nice </div></div>
you are not hearing us.......SHOOT!
 
#8
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

axe,
it might sound smartass of me to say, but dont let my choice of words fool you, its sage advice. 99.9% of members here are going to tell you the same thing. no matter how much you read, someone who has been to the range even once will have an edge on you.

the only things you NEED to know at this point is how to load your rifle, and boresight.

get on paper at 25/50 and zero for 100. dont even ask about break in procedure...

all of these 'detail' questions you have will be answered instantly by practice.

if youre going 160 miles round trip to shoot, bring plenty of ammo and lots of paper to make the trip worth it.

im not being a smartass and im not a seasoned vet, but i cant stress enough how much more you will be able to learn and how much more it will sink in when you actually experience it. you WILL make mistakes, but thats part of learning.
 
#9
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">just curious. the scope i have turns out to be mil/moa. is the difference just in the markings on the knobs or is there some internal difference in the scopes construction? im just wondering if its possible just to swap the knobs marked in moa with ones marked mil instead. the same scope is offered both ways and i didnt know if its just the knobs or the knobs and some difference in the way its made. ill learn to use it either way, im just curious. thanks </div></div>
Axeman , you could look at changing out the vert and horozntal mechanism which could cost $400us or so or more cheaply change the reticle out which would cost maybe upto a couple of hundred-dont quote me on price .I looked at doing it but in New Zealand it would cost $800nz dollars-F--n extortion.with our set ups it is easy to change the dials and shoot rather than use hold overs -which would take a little more math.For me I am mostly shooting distance prone and arnt under pressure so it depends on what your'e doin I guess.Hope thats slightly helpful
 
#10
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

I don't really see the point in doing all that, replacing turret knobs and all. Just learn the mil values in MOA and be done with it. Unless your just dead set on having metric or miliradian click values...
 
#11
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

Axman,

I've got a friend that swears by the Millett with mil dots and moa knobs. Said it was the next Mark 4. He uses it competition and does pretty well.

With that said I don't believe you can get a great scope for 300 bucks and I surly would not want to spend more money fixing or trying to up grade a 300 scope.


I'm with you on the mil mil moa moa or mil moa thing. from what I've read MIL MIL would be the best way to go but I know some guys using mil moa and it will work just fine. As every else has said go out and shoot your rifle.

If you don't have any ammo go out and practice ranging and get used to the math.
 
#12
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

i have been using some of the online simulators to practice ranging, without a LRF i cant verify anything i would range with the reticle, so for now its online. this scope supposedly comes in mil/mil as well as mil/moa. i wouldnt pay to have it changed, but i was wondering if the mechanics were different or if it was like the BDC knobs they have for specific bullet weights. some come with 3 knobs, each for a different weight of bullet and you just change them out. in that case the markings on the knob are graduated differently. i wasnt sure if the mil knobs were marked different and used the same click stops of if it was calibrated different internally. its already been mounted, so i cant exchange it. i boresighted it last night. ill live with it the way it is.
 
#13
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

The values are different.

One MOA is 1.047 at 100 or 1/4 moa is .26175" at 100

One MIL is 3.6" at 100 or .10 mil is .36" at 100

I just went through all this, what are you trying to figure out?
 
#14
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

all i wanted to know was if there was a difference in more than the knobs between the 2 different versions on this millett scope. they offer this same scope in mil/mil and mil/moa. i wanted to know if the only difference was the knobs. i know what a mil is and what moa is. i just didnt know if the difference was the knobs or the internal mechanisms. like some BDC knobs are on a moa scope, just with different graduations in the marks on the different knobs. just for example, BSA has a sweet 22 that has knobs for 40g, 36g and 32g bullet weights, and they interchange on a 1/4 moa scope. each will dial out to 150 yards but the lines are spaced differently. thats all, just didnt know if it was an internal or external thing.
 
#15
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

Internal. As you know MILs and MOAs are on a different scale.

The BDC is a different measurement on the same scale and that scale could be mils or moas or what ever.
 
#16
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

The short version is that the "click value" for Mil, MOA and IPHY are all different to achieve the desired elevation or windage adjustment. Read that: The size of the gear teeth are different. If you were to put a Mil knob on an MOA scope you would probably find in short order that the "lines" would not line up anymore. BDC's are simply markings on the turret that correspond (roughly) to the correct elevation adjustment for a given yard line. The "clicks" will remain the same as a regular scope (1/4, 1/2, 1/10th etc.).

Cheers,

Doc
 
#17
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

cool. thanks. i didnt think it would be that simple, but i had to ask. ill live with what i have and learn to master it, if not love it. and im sure it will get easier when i shoot it more. had i known of the option i may have looked further for a mil/mil, but this is not the case. again, thanks
 
#18
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

Don't feel to bad. I just contacted a dealer and he has not seen any MIL MIL versions yet. Doesn't know when he will.

Millett has some piss poor info and a lot of miss information out there.
 
#20
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

pyro, you arent kidding there. the manual is way off base. i get that they changed things during the course of development, but why didnt they change the manual? it makes me doubt the 90 MOA of vertical adjustment. even the PDF is still wrong. the millett guy on this site hasnt even opened my PM yet, but i think my questions are answered. as i said many times ill deal with it. maybe bushnell will help with these details
 
#21
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

Don't count on Bushnell for a lot of help. all they will do is read you the same literature you have all ready read.

You have to realize it's a 300 dollar scope. for that price point your not going to get Nightforce or USO customer service, quality or anything else.

Take the scope out and at least see what scale its really on. I looked for the post on how to do that with a yard stick but couldn't find it. I'm sure some here has it handy.

I'm kinda in the same boat. I can't afford what I want and think I need so I just might wind up with the Millett and have to get a Nightforce or USO later.
 
#22
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 051F</div><div class="ubbcode-body">axe,
it might sound smartass of me to say, but dont let my choice of words fool you, its sage advice. 99.9% of members here are going to tell you the same thing. no matter how much you read, someone who has been to the range even once will have an edge on you.

the only things you NEED to know at this point is how to load your rifle, and boresight.

get on paper at 25/50 and zero for 100. dont even ask about break in procedure...

all of these 'detail' questions you have will be answered instantly by practice.

if youre going 160 miles round trip to shoot, bring plenty of ammo and lots of paper to make the trip worth it.

im not being a smartass and im not a seasoned vet, but i cant stress enough how much more you will be able to learn and how much more it will sink in when you actually experience it. you WILL make mistakes, but thats part of learning.
</div></div>

Amen, and that's kind of what I was trying to say the other day when I said pretty much the same thing.

Actually the best way I've seen the concept posted goes to Jon Lester last week:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jon Lester</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Kinda like learning to Swim, You can be told a hundered different strokes but you wont understand how any of it works until you get wet. </div></div>
 
#23
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

actually sobr, your sig says it best

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pyrolater</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't count on Bushnell for a lot of help. all they will do is read you the same literature you have all ready read. </div></div>

i didnt mean help me really, i just meant help out with the way millett does stuff. they do have more time in the business. ive accepted what i have, ill deal with it and learn it. i have the yard stick trick in my favs, thanks for the tip. i know its not NF or USO but they could still update the literature. cant say anything about customer service, never got thru to them, always on hold
smile.gif

even now at this time the info is still out of date.
 
#24
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

Hello

To clear up the debate.

All clicks are the result of the tread pitch in the turret. so to have mils the thread has to be set for that pitch and differenct pitch for moa.

Many people like the mil to mil click and reticle. I have found it works well. it also works out to 1cm per click at 100m.

good shooting

Steve
 
#25
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

Not to rag Steve but AXEMAN is 100% right. the Millett literature sucks. I can see being behind on the paperwork but the web site and customer service center should be easy enough to update.

And your hold times to reach some one are like 20 min plus

I know cause I did order a TRS-1 mil moa. Your advertising the mil mil version but I couldn't find one to try out. Whats up with that?
 
#27
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

your tired. it sounds like <span style="font-weight: bold">pyrolater </span>wanted mil turrets, but couldnt find them, so he got what i have. my turrets are marked 1/4 so thats MOA isnt it? if it was mil they would be marked .01? its a mil reticle with MOA turrets. <span style="font-weight: bold">steve </span>just confirmed what others said, its not the knobs, its the internals that make the difference between the mil/mil and mil/moa.

but maybe you can check my math and help out a little. i bore sighted it, and checked the elevation travel. last time the windage wasnt centered and that may have affected elevation travel. now check my math on this. the dial is marked 0...|...2...|...4 all the way to 14...|...0 and back to zero. thats 16 moa per complete turn of the turret. so that one revolution is 64 clicks. turning it down all the way and then to the top til it stops, i only get 66 MOA. four reveloutions plus 8 more clicks. i may be wrong, but thats not 90 MOA as claimed unless there is something i dont understand about this. i sent a PM to the guy from Millett, he just replied.

sobrbiker, does that sound like 90 MOA of elevation to you or to anyone else? why ya breaking my balls man? lol, i am only seeking knowlege
 
#28
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

Axeman,

1. MOA/MIL and MIL/MIL are basically the same thing, just on a different scale thats all, learn how to use both, and learn the conversions.

2. 66MOA or 90MOA, matter of fact is the maximum adjustments you are ever going to need is not even a fraction of that. with a .308 you can accurately shoot 50yd to 1000yds without even having to touch the turrets. Plus on a $300 scope I wouldn't put too much faith in the accuracy and reliability of the turret adjustments any how.

3. Buy/load quality ammo, goto the range, zero at 200yds, chrono the gun, work out your ballistics, verify ballistics with actual shooting, and put in time honing your shooting techniques.

A few thousand rounds down the pipe and everything will fall into place.

My 2 cents..
 
#29
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

There you go, save you $30 on Mil-dot master. Use this to trace your bullet path to match the Mil-dot reticle and MOA turrets.

MIL-DOT Bullet Drop MOA
5.0 18.0 17.2
4.9 17.6 16.8
4.8 17.3 16.5
4.7 16.9 16.2
4.6 16.6 15.8
4.5 16.2 15.5
4.4 15.8 15.1
4.3 15.5 14.8
4.2 15.1 14.4
4.1 14.8 14.1
4.0 14.4 13.8
3.9 14.0 13.4
3.8 13.7 13.1
3.7 13.3 12.7
3.6 13.0 12.4
3.5 12.6 12.0
3.4 12.2 11.7
3.3 11.9 11.3
3.2 11.5 11.0
3.1 11.2 10.7
3.0 10.8 10.3
2.9 10.4 10.0
2.8 10.1 9.6
2.7 9.7 9.3
2.6 9.4 8.9
2.5 9.0 8.6
2.4 8.6 8.3
2.3 8.3 7.9
2.2 7.9 7.6
2.1 7.6 7.2
2.0 7.2 6.9
1.9 6.8 6.5
1.8 6.5 6.2
1.7 6.1 5.8
1.6 5.8 5.5
1.5 5.4 5.2
1.4 5.0 4.8
1.3 4.7 4.5
1.2 4.3 4.1
1.1 4.0 3.8
1.0 3.6 3.4
0.9 3.2 3.1
0.8 2.9 2.8
0.7 2.5 2.4
0.6 2.2 2.1
0.5 1.8 1.7
0.4 1.4 1.4
0.3 1.1 1.0
0.2 0.7 0.7
0.1 0.4 0.3
0.0 0.0 0.0
 
#30
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Acttacus</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Axeman,

1. MOA/MIL and MIL/MIL are basically the same thing, just on a different scale thats all, learn how to use both, and learn the conversions.

2. 66MOA or 90MOA, matter of fact is the maximum adjustments you are ever going to need is not even a fraction of that. with a .308 you can accurately shoot 50yd to 1000yds without even having to touch the turrets. Plus on a $300 scope I wouldn't put too much faith in the accuracy and reliability of the turret adjustments any how.

3. Buy/load quality ammo, goto the range, zero at 200yds, chrono the gun, work out your ballistics, verify ballistics with actual shooting, and put in time honing your shooting techniques.

A few thousand rounds down the pipe and everything will fall into place.

My 2 cents.. </div></div>

i may not ever need to or get to shoot 1000 yards, but others on this site have said that with 90 moa, i would just barely have the elevation i needed to get to 1000 and may want to get a 20 moa base. id like to have the gun set up from the start and not have to change anything down the road and have to re-learn. if i read what you said, your suggestion is to not use the target knobs, but to just hold over for any range corrections using bullet drop data? i get the mil/moa, mil/mil aspect, i have been reading up on it, ill adapt to what i have. at this point i guess im just playing out the hand dealt me. i was sold a scope with 90 moa that only has 66 moa. either its broken or its a false claim, or my logic and math skills suck and i shouldnt be trying to do range finding math. i do appreciate the data, but oddly enough i just got a MDM for $12 from a member here. im not really sure what to make of the string of numbers you posted. i know what they are, that i get, but with no frame of reference, its kinda just numbers. i know you were trying to help by posting them and i thank you for your effort. ill call millett/bushnell in the AM and see what comes on the turn. if i had bought a scope that had 66 moa and i later found out i needed 90 moa, id say crap, its my fault. but to buy a scope that claims 90 and only has 66, thats a little different.
 
#31
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

In all of the matches I went through, unless I'm running a NF, USOptics or other high end scopes, I never trust the turrets. most Mil-dot scopes have vertically 10 to 12 MIL you can play with. Most of the guns I own, I zero 100yd on the bottom mil-dot, and the 12th (top) mil-dot will put me close to 1050yds.
If I only have 10 mil-dot reticle, then I get around 850yds to play with. You get the idea. Turrets are mechanical, but mil reticles, if the scope holds zero, it an't gonna change.

I understand how you can be frustrated with scope only having 66MOA when the manufacturer stated 90MOA, should've got a SS16x42, same price, awesome scope.
 
#32
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

i bought the scope when i didnt have the net. it seemed like a good value for my first bolt gun. i am limited to 300y at the private range. they have public matches, but otherwise you cant go there unless you are a member. i get what your saying though about how you do it. i really wanted a mk 4 leupold, and i was gonna trade a nice pistol for it at a gunshow, but they were sold by the time i got there. a local gun dealer suggested this millett. live and learn. i do credit this site for schooling me on whats what. i may have never know i had 66 moa had the stuff i read here not made me curious. thanks again.
 
#33
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

AXEMAN,

I did want MIL MIL but Bigriver did not have any and didn't know when they would get any.

Just to be a pain it the ass I called Millett/Bushnell again to see if they had any or knew where I could get one. All the customer service guy could do was read the brochure I already had down loaded from their site.

Towards the end of the conversation, I could tell he was getting a little tired of me trying to pin him down on the the mil mil thing, he told me to down load the owners manual and it would tell me how to change the operation from mil moa to mil mil.

So in conclusion there are no mil mil scopes out there yet.
 
#34
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

how long did it take to get thru? i am hoping to get some dialog with Steve the Millett guy thats on this site. someone else checked their TRS-1 and it had a bit under or over 5 complete revolutions or about 80 moa which while better than mine is still short of 90. its crazy stuff huh? any old school computer guys out there recall the last thing named TRS?
 
#35
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

Simple solution is to do the quick math in your head,
.3 Mils = 1 MOA (rounded)
3.5(3.438 exact)= 1 Mil
So if you read .6 mils in reticule its 2MOA dialed adjustment
These numbers are rounded for ease of in the head math.

Hope it helps
 
#36
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

everything helps, i appreciate any i get. thanks. right now its more about getting a scope that works as promised, but i am keeping all the suggestions in a file for future reference.
 
#37
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

AXE, I wasn't breaking your balls, I was referring to Millett's post, I found it interesting that Steve posted that he found that the 1cm/100m(.1mil) turrets work well, but didn't suggest if or when his scopes had them available.

I referenced you because I thought you had previously posted that you were hoping yours were mil/mil.
 
#38
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

my favorite guy, lol. you keep me honest man. i respect that. its kinda funny (in a sick way) that both myself and another guy had less than the claimed 90 moa. at least he has 80, id love 80, lol. i slept all day so i didnt get to call millett. tomorrow i will get it done
 
#39
Re: mil/moa to mil/mil: is it just the knobs?

well after a breif 10 minutes on hold with bushnell, milletts new masters, i was told by customer service that i could send the scope to them in Lenexa for repair or replacement. strangely enough that is just about an hour from my house and my buddy was just there last week buying scopes. in a second call to tech support to ask about the issue, i was told that less than 1% of these scopes had issues. ill see where this takes me. funny part is this being my first foray into long range shooting, i went the extra step of getting some loctite (purple) for the screws in the rings. this ought to be fun. stay tuned sports fan.
 
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