Rifle Scopes Mil or MOA ?

[Inukshuk]

For a long time scopes were with mil reticles and MOA turrets. It seams times are changing. So now we have more options and wonder which way to go.
I've been using the Shooter ready program along with the mildot master up till now and very often have a spotter with me with the mildot master card.
Now to get a new scope it would naturally be better to have both the turrets and reticle compatible " so I'm led to believe", so which to choose:
Mil turrets and reticle or MOA turrets and reticle? and why?

With this I'm still undecided weather to go FFP or not. I do love to range and holdover most of the time. I rarely use the turrets.

 

[doc76251]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

IMHO,

I like MOA or more specificly IPHY (Inches Per Hundred Yards). The simple reasoning is that I think in inches. There is less room for error in my estimation skills if I am only "guestimating" a part of an MOA or IPHY vs a Mil or Half mil. As for FFP sv SFP. I have no use for a SFP scope and am quite comfortable with a smaller cross hair if I can range and subtent correctly at all powers it is an advantage to me.

In your case it may prove to be benicficial to go Mils IF you think metricly. There can be no doubt of the advantages of a mil reticle if you actualy think in metrics and measure in meters or centimeters.

Food for thought and I hope not too biased.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Inukshuk]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

Ah!
I should have noted that I'm old school and don't think very much in metric in a normal day. But for a scope I could probably adapt either way. I think.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

If you go with a Mil / Mil combination there is absolutely NO guessing, what you see is what you get. You have a calibrated ruler in front of your face, the smart money would be to use it. Why guess at anything...

if you read .3, dial .3, hold, .3 it doesn't matter if you are shooting something at 100 yards, 333.3333 yards, or 666.6666 yards, the answer is always the same thing. If you see .3 you use .3.

Mil / Mil

http://www.snipershide.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=30

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

Don't let people fool you, Metrics have nothing to do with anything...

 

[doc76251]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

Frank,

I didn' mean to insinuate that mils were metric. I'm well aware of that tired old argument, a Mil is a measure of angle, much as an MOA or an IPHY. Now with that said if you think in metrics (he is from Canada and there are folks there that do) mils is the way to go as it subtends nicely in meters.

Since he said he's an inch guy, IPHY.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[doc76251]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

FWIW,

When I get a guy that tells me he can think in inches or meters I as a simple question

"How big is a 2 X 4?"

If he answers 2" x 4" I know a. that he has never worked with wood and b. That he thinks in inches

If he answers 1 3/4" x 3 1/2" I know he works with wood and thinks in inches.

If he answers 45 X 90, he thinks in the metric tables.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[HHCF]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

Inu,
I was hesitant when a friend/competitor suggested my moving to a Mil/Mil combination, like most I guess, kinda stuck on what I'm already adjusted to. However, I pulled a Mil/Mil unit from stock and spent some time with it on the range, once I got it stuck in my head there was no looking back. Like Lowlight said, no need for guesswork and or unnecessary complications.

 

[montyb]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

doc, you keep bringing up meters or "metric" units into your arguments. mil works equally well in in inches or any other measure of distance.

i've used MOA all my life until a couple years ago. i bought a USO Canadian and had no problem whatsoever making the transition. my latest scope is a NF in mil/mil.

 

[doc76251]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

1sik,

Yes you are right and absolutly correct. The Mil is a measure of and angle and works well as inches, meters, atoparsecs or anything else. My point is not that it works well in everything but if your brain works in meters it is just as easy as working in IPHY for an Inches brain and there may be less learning curve.

I speak all three languages fluently and can do 27.778 math as well as 95.5 math or 100 math, For that matter I have in FFP all of the above optics. I can even translate on the fly and call corrections in Mils off my IPHY scope.

This wasn't supposed to be a rehash of the Mils Vs MOA contraversy. Just a method to a shorter curve.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

The reason I don't advocate MOA / MOA is because of the reticle / turret combination...

They don't match like a Mil Dot reticle and Mil Turrets do. Those use 1 MIL and you can break the reticle up into 10th, as well the adjustments is in 10th, so you get the right fraction for both the reticle and the turret. (Don't even bring up Leupy)

in MOA adjusted scopes, most are usually 1/4 MOA or 1/2 MOA, and there is no reticle that gives you an equal subtension. So between the center of the reticle and first measurement isn't spacing that equals the scope... and because the MOA spacing isn't in 10th, it's harder to say, what amount of a 1/4 minute you are looking at... sure it can be done, but the learning curve is nowhere as easy as with a Mil based system, if the MOA Reticles out there were as universal as the mil based system it would be a different story.

 

[doc76251]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

I'll have to argue this point with you. Simply because you are referencing apples and oranges.

On a mil scope in RANGING you break your reticle down to 1/10's or less if well trained and that does correspond to the knobs. That being said there is significantly more White Space that has to be guestimated for, 3.6 MOA to be exact, or 1.8 if you have a Gen II. Granted with training and repitition the level of accuracy can be significantly improved.

On a MOA or an IPHY Scope for Ranging you can break your MOA/IPHY divisions down to 1/4's or 1/2's to match your knobs also. The error in ranging is significantly decreased in that you are dealing with a smaller White Space. If the best you can do is 1/2 MOA/IPHY in estimation at worst you will be off 1/4 of an MOA/IPHY.

To reference the idea that the Mil scope adjusts in 1/10 Mil clicks has no bearing on ranging. You range and determine your distance and then you dial or hold for the range based on your data book.

Doping a shot and dialing a shot have nothing to do with each other except that one tells you what to do with the other.

On corrections and follow up shots. The POI for a first round miss is a general approximation at best, possibly nothing more than a puff of dust. In similarly equipped scopes it matters not one whitt if it's 3.5 MOA or 1 Mil that you call for a correction.

The key to all this is to have matching reticles and knobs so that there is no misscommunication and there is no question as to what you are calling After OR Before the shot is fired. If you drive a Mil scope have Mil knobs. If you drive an MOA/IPHY scope have corresponding knobs. Having a MIL reticle and an MOA knob is simply inducing error into your firing solution either by long math or as the result of rounding or more commonly misscommunication.

As for ease of use I will only comment that it is purely subjective to the user and quite often driven by what they are given/issued or aquire first.

I find that adding two zero's to be exceptionaly easy compared to ANYTHING with decimals for ranging math. I combine that with an error of no more than 1/4 MOA/IPHY and find myself hard pressed to revert back to judging parts of round balls and guessing 1/10's.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

I have a MOA\MOA NSX, don't make the mistake I made, get MIL\MIL scope.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

I don't have a conceptual problem with MOA/MOA setups - save for the fact that I've never seen an MOA reticle which approaches the all-around usefulness of a Gen II mildot, including the ability to use it without illumination in low levels of light.

For those who are target or match shooters and don't anticipate having to operate in lowlight conditions, a reticle with large numbered hashmarks on the vertical axis every 4 MOA, with smaller unnumbered hashmarks between at 1 MOA intervals, and the same on the horizontal axis without numbers, would be just about as useful as a Gen II mildot.

But I want those dots in my scope.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

Doc, it has nothing to do with ranging and I absolutely dope my shots to the 1/10th mil for wind and follow up shots.

And while not everyone agrees with me, I also dial my dope past 600 yards to get the wind "fine tuned" with the turrets which makes my corrections easier and smaller.

I don't have to know anything about 3.5MOA or any combination of MOA or inches... I use 1/10th for everything, which is why it makes more sense my dials agree with my reticle readings.

So you are only referring to 1/2 of the equations, using the Mil / Mil combination as a complete system is easier to use than MOA or IPHY because people always want to assign a value to it like you did and that value has to be translated from the reticle to the dials, because they don't match in the same increments. Sure the numbers are the same, but they are not in the same order.

 

[Glen Seekins]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

when I try to explain mills i just tell people to forget about referring the MILLS to any other measurement. It doesn’t matter. Read the dope, dial and shoot. Its just simple to divide something into 10th's than it is 1/4's. It’s also easier to remember comeups when using mills.

Some guys just make easy stuff hard by thinking too much.
Its only as hard as you make it

 

[Lindy]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

You have to interpolate to a tenth of a mil, just as a person with a MOA reticle like I described would have to interpolate to, say, a quarter or a half of an MOA. So, a scope with that reticle and half or quarter MOA clicks would be an MOA equivalent.

I still want my dots, though.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

I do Lindy, but I pay no nevermind to how many MOA the Mils equal... I only read the mils, either in the scope or on the dials and use the same number for either.

The idea that my 1 Mils covers "X" number of MOA makes no never mind, I don't consider the distance, only what I see...

 

[Rafael]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

What mil reticle has subtensions in 1/10th mil?
Does one exist?

The point is that this 1/10th mil number exists on the knobs, but not in the reticle and 1/10th mil must be estimated by the user.

If one makes an estimate of 1/10th mil in a mil scale reticle, this matches 1/10th mil adjustments. Even with 1/2 mil marks this is still an estimate the user must make.

If one makes an estimate as poorly as 1/4 of an MOA in a 1MOA scale reticle, this matches 1/4 MOA adjustments.

I don't see an advantage for either, other than the small improvement in resolution for 1/4 MOA over 1/10th mil.
Of course this can be negated with a finer mil scale.

 

[gyr]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

SB´ s P4 reticles break it down to 2/10 mil; and the Klein/ gen 2 mildot I think has a mark that subtends 1,5 1/10.

I agree that it is important to think in angles and not try to translate to inches; especially if you go from mils to inches.

 

[Inukshuk]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

Can somebody tell me why there are so few scopes out there that have matching turrets and reticles?
You know like the two I have now have the mildot reticle with MOA turrets.

 

[chad3]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

Not that I think everyone uses the US for their basis, but moa style turrets have been the norm for ever. This is why everyone talks about 1/4 inch at 100 yards, etc and try to back into the mil from there. Once the first Mil dot was done and the public wanted it, they still focused on those same turrets as that was what they understand.
My guess.

 

[Rafael]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gyr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SB´ s P4 reticles break it down to 2/10 mil; and the Klein/ gen 2 mildot I think has a mark that subtends 1,5 1/10.

I agree that it is important to think in angles and not try to translate to inches; especially if you go from mils to inches. </div></div>

Thanks, gyr. Was ignorant of those.
That would certainly require little guessing.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

I think the point you missed is, all Mil Dot Scopes regardless place something at the 1 Mil Mark. Hashes, Dots, etc... now some do have .5 Mil marks, .2, as well the dots are usually .2, whatever, but the major have a 1 Mil marking.

Now between center and 1 Mil you can break that up to 1/10th... with or without help of .2 or .5 marks... but you can count 1 to 10 with 10 being the full mil value. easy.

the issue is everyone makes a different MOA reticle, One 1 MOA, several 2 MOA and even 5 MOA marks between Center. Break that up in 1/4s. Not all MOA reticles are the same, and there is no universal 1 MOA mark, now instead of counting to 10, you have some that are 4, some 8, and some 20. that is my issue.

 

[Two Shoes]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

LL,
How, do you break a reticle into 1/10th's of a mil, with only 1 Mil markings?.............like a 10x SS?
Very few under $3k scopes come w/ anything else.

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What mil reticle has subtensions in 1/10th mil?
Does one exist?

The point is that this 1/10th mil number exists on the knobs, but not in the reticle and 1/10th mil must be estimated by the user.

If one makes an estimate of 1/10th mil in a mil scale reticle, this matches 1/10th mil adjustments. Even with 1/2 mil marks this is still an estimate the user must make.

If one makes an estimate as poorly as 1/4 of an MOA in a 1MOA scale reticle, this matches 1/4 MOA adjustments.

I don't see an advantage for either, other than the small improvement in resolution for 1/4 MOA over 1/10th mil.
Of course this can be negated with a finer mil scale. </div></div>

The reticle in the IOR 3-18 FFP is 100% based on 1/10th milrad.

The whole reticle is done in .1 milrad and you can brake any ranging, or holds to .05 milrad with just looking at it.

John

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

Shoes, you just look at it and read it as 10 equal spaces between the Center of the Crosshair and the Center of the Mil Dot. If you need to the "dot" is .2 so you can say the center to edge is .9, so you have an idea of what .1 looks like, 1/2 the "dot"

if something falls halfway between the center and the mil its .5, if halfway between the center and the edge of the dot, .4, etc...

Just look at it...

 

[Rafael]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the point you missed is, all Mil Dot Scopes regardless place something at the 1 Mil Mark. Hashes, Dots, etc... now some do have .5 Mil marks, .2, as well the dots are usually .2, whatever, but the major have a 1 Mil marking.

Now between center and 1 Mil you can break that up to 1/10th... with or without help of .2 or .5 marks... but you can count 1 to 10 with 10 being the full mil value. easy.

the issue is everyone makes a different MOA reticle, One 1 MOA, several 2 MOA and even 5 MOA marks between Center. Break that up in 1/4s. Not all MOA reticles are the same, and there is no universal 1 MOA mark, now instead of counting to 10, you have some that are 4, some 8, and some 20. that is my issue. </div></div>

There are certainly more similarities in the Mil reticles I know of than the MOA reticles I know of, though there are a very few MOA/IPHY reticles anyway.
I don't know that that is a negative for me. I would only purchase the ones that are layed out 1 MOA or IPHY anyway. I understand your point, though.

 

[Rafael]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.Boyette</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What mil reticle has subtensions in 1/10th mil?
Does one exist?

The point is that this 1/10th mil number exists on the knobs, but not in the reticle and 1/10th mil must be estimated by the user.

If one makes an estimate of 1/10th mil in a mil scale reticle, this matches 1/10th mil adjustments. Even with 1/2 mil marks this is still an estimate the user must make.

If one makes an estimate as poorly as 1/4 of an MOA in a 1MOA scale reticle, this matches 1/4 MOA adjustments.

I don't see an advantage for either, other than the small improvement in resolution for 1/4 MOA over 1/10th mil.
Of course this can be negated with a finer mil scale. </div></div>

The reticle in the IOR 3-18 FFP is 100% based on 1/10th milrad.

The whole reticle is done in .1 milrad and you can brake any ranging, or holds to .05 milrad with just looking at it.

John </div></div>

I forgot that one too, John.
That is pretty fine.

 

[lukus10000]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

i like moa better it just seems less complicated to me. but i have never used a mil.

 

[nhunt003]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

I like the ranging formula for the moa/moa better, but there is a much greater amount of Mil/Mil product availabile.

That being said, moa/moa is great, but you will have a hard time finding spotting scopes and binoculars that have moa reticles.

When thinking of an entire system the Mil system is probably the way to go.

If you are doing some long range hunting, think in inches, and just want something to bullet drop compensate with and maybe do some ranging the moa system is hard to beat.

I hope that helps.

 

[radmcg]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

I like the mil/mil but would not turn down a great deal because of the MOA. But I think getting everything on the same system is more important than which you pick. I have a leupold with mil dot and MOA turrets and always seem to confuse myself. Bought the scope used love it and will probably keep it forever, great scope and well used. It's really no big deal until you get way out but it does make a difference. I have a USO on order and everything is miliradian.
Rad

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: radmcg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like the mil/mil but would not turn down a great deal because of the MOA. But I think getting everything on the same system is more important than which you pick. I have a leupold with mil dot and MOA turrets and always seem to confuse myself. Bought the scope used love it and will probably keep it forever, great scope and well used. It's really no big deal until you get way out but it does make a difference. I have a USO on order and everything is miliradian.
Rad </div></div>

That is the best post to date!!!!

I think both systems work, both have there place, and the only one is better than the other is in the shooters head.

Of all the things for us to talk about, this one is on the bottom of the chart for me.

No one system is better, they both suck.

John

 

[Matt in Virginia]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do Lindy, but I pay no nevermind to how many MOA the Mils equal... I only read the mils, either in the scope or on the dials and use the same number for either.

The idea that my 1 Mils covers "X" number of MOA makes no never mind, I don't consider the distance, only what I see... </div></div>

fwiw,
Concur in spades...

Regards, Matt.

 

[Lt. Arclight]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

Once you use a mil/mil scope and actually understand the relationship between the reticle and what you are viewing-mil is the only way to go IMO. Switching ALL my glass away from MOA has made my long range shooting easier.

 

[CoCaDoRi]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

Damn fine conversation/thread actually.
Great article Frank.

I think I'm going to convert to Mil/Mil. It is making more sense than moa.

 

[pc3]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

So a person has probably made a mistake if they bought S&B PM11 P4 with MOA turrets ?? as the P4 is in Milrads ??

whats the simplest eqauation to convert how many "mil hash" marks a target takes up to moa is it simply say 2 mils x 3.48 = your MOA ??

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pc3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So a person has probably made a mistake if they bought S&B PM11 P4 with MOA turrets ?? as the P4 is in Milrads ??

whats the simplest equation to convert how many "mil hash" marks a target takes up to moa is it simply say 2 mils x 3.48 = your MOA ??</div></div>

I don't think is a a huge mistake, and yes you can convert how you posted. It been used that way for a long time and many people are familiar with the two different system, its just not very efficient and requires more math to convert things back and forth.

but there is never anything wrong with buying good equipment and frankly the people advocating Mils the way I do is pretty small when you consider the different shooting disciplines. So, it's not like its been out there looking you in the face, it's been mostly a grassroots movement.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

As Frank said, yes, you can just multiply mils by 3.438 to convert them to MOA, if that's what you need to know.

The real disadvantage to a mil/MOA scope is that you have to convert them when doing holdover/holdunder calculations. And here's how to do that with a mixed system scope:

Calculating Holdovers and Holdunders

 

[p8re8]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

this is a newbie question, but i understand mixing the two. the guys i shoot with all use mildot reticles and moa turrets. if i wanted to stay with moa, i would be better off with a moa reticle and be able to correct with adjustment or hold over without correcting for the switch. is that correct?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

You can but then you lose the ability to spot along with everyone else.

using the ruler in the scope is still the best way to call the correction, if you use an MOA reticle and the guys around use mil dots, you're back to square one, as well if you use a spotting scope like a Leupold, you have a Mil reticle there.

the MOA thing is fine if its just you, but when dealing with others, most have a Mil dot reticle and the follow up shoot really should be held, and not dialed. So calling that based on the reticle is preferred.

Fortunately for most there is no right or wrong answer, nor is there a standard, so you can do pretty much anything. However you should look at how, where and with who you will be shooting with, that should factor into your decision.

 

[Inukshuk]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

True that there is no official standard, but as some have mentioned there are several companies making mil rangers " spotting scopes, binos, monoculars with a mil reticles, but none for the MOA system.
So just from that I think it kind of says it all on which has the most options.
But it's still a preference. No rule but your own

 

[regency]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

I use MOA because I am american

 

[Graham]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

I use Mils because I can't do math worth a sh-t.

 

[Smokin]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

I HAD a MOA/MOA reticle on my USO that I just sold. Worked great. I didnt really see the 1/4 or 1/2 MOA as an issue versus reading the actual values on my reticle. Like most Americans I think in terms of inches and yards. The MOA system seems to be a bit more intuitive. That being said, MOST other shooters are using Mil based reticles. I was often the only guy that was reading my reticle based off of MOA instead of MIL.

 

[p8re8]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

here's my next dumb question. if i jump on the mil bandwagon, i can call shots with my mildot buddies and adjust without computing, correct? i have looked at nightforce's website and saw where mil turrets are an option but can't find any dealers showing those turrets. money is an object and more for the nf is an issue. are mil turrets more? do i have to send it to nf for a conversion?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

If you own an existing MOA adjusted NF you can have it converted by them, depending if you also order the Zero Stop feature it can cost as much as $450 for the conversion. $280 I think without the zero stop to convert.

To order a NF directly as a mil adjusted scope they were charging an extra $185 on top of the retail price, but I am not sure if that has changed.

If you shoot and your buddy calls your shot 1 mil low you simply dial the 1 mil. If you shot and impact .5 mils to the left of the target you can dial a .5 correction or simply hold the reticle .5 and fire... range doesn't matter.

The Nightforce set up is probably your best bang for your dollar in my opinion. And you can simply call your dealer and say you want a 3-15X 50 with mil dot reticle and MRAD turrets and you are good from there. Zero stop is optional. Now the only asterick is the NF needs to be on max power, but they are also coming out with a FFP scope this quarter so you can get that but it is more money and not a item you can convert.

 

[regency]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

Lowlight, do you have a website you would recommend that talks in great detail about the Mil?

I have a general knowledge about it but if you handed me a Mil scope I wouldn't know what to do with it hardly...

 

[regency]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

nevermind, saw your linky

 

[chad3]

Re: Mil or MOA ?

Again, Mil/Mil is the SH&T. You spot your hit, adjust without thinking with either the reticle or the turrets and fire. If you don't have a Mil/Mil scope try one and come back and say what you think. Even better, just sight in a new rifle and scope with it. The steps:
Shoot, read, adjust, on target.
What is easier than that?
Chad