Mil value changes with range? How do you use it?

goodgorilla

goodgorilla

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Nov 16, 2013
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Lecanto, FL
#1
I am currently learning the mildot system the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAbaBYZa8iI it shows what a mil is at certain yards and their corresponding inches. For instance 1 mil at 100 yards = 3.6 inches. 1 mil at 200 yards = 7.2 inches, 1 mil at 300 yards = 10.8. Since the scope adjustment has .1 adjustment for mil radians, each click on the scope have different values at different ranges? Or does it all come down to bullet ballistics? I am having trouble putting the pieces together.

Edit: I can answer part of my question. When looking through the scope the distance between two dots is one mil, at variable distances the measurement of inches changes inside the mil. At 100 yards looking through the scope, the distance between the two dots (1 mil) translates to 3.6 inches. At 200 yards the distance between the two dots is 7.2 inches and so on. Also I should probably mention that you have to be on your true mil dot magnification for SFP, and any Magnification on FFP. I still don't see how the mil dot relates to the mil rads.
 
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#2
Who cares, a mil is a mil, there is no reason to translate it to its linear distance equivalent you don't use it.

If you have a mixed system, you're doing it wrong and most companies understand this so they basically no longer sell a mixed systems. The shortcut in this case is 1MOA per .25 mil. Round 3.6 to 4.

Its an an angle, all angles have a straight line distance but in shooting we have learned we don't Need to cloud the mind with that information. A mil at 100 is a mil at 300 is a mil at 833.3 yards. The answer is dial or adjust 1 mil the angle tells us this as the angle is what matters not the linear distance.

WYSIWYG....

If you see it that is the answer. Stop translating it you don't need it. Think pennies, nickels and a dime. A mil is 10, you have 10 pennies, or 2 nickels, it still equals a dime. Focusing on inches in a mil discussion is a waste of time and ineffective.
 
#3
Your scope adjustment value is mil scale in .1 increments; thus, each click has a value of .36 inches movement at 100 yards. 10 clicks would represent 3.6 inches at 100 yards. If you wanted to move the center of the grouping 3.6 inches at 100 yards for example you would take 10 clicks of windage. To adjust the sight from one distance to another known distance, then a ballistics chart for your particular loading will give you an idea of how many mils of adjustment will need to be taken to get from the zeroed distance to the new distance. Don't overthink it. The video you saw simply has too much information. That's what is likely confusing you.
 
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#4
Exactly, you don't need extra the information being relayed.

Mils are an Angle, that is all you need to know. The linear equivalent should be nothing more than a footnote and not the focus.

The focus is 1 mil equals 1 mil at every distance, dialed or held. End of story.

Read the reticle, it's a calibrated ruler, it does not care the distance, the target size, only the mils you see. If you see 1.2 Mils you dial or hold 1.2 mils. You can zero a scope at every distance without a single reference mark, all you need is your POA point and your reticle to measure the offset of the impact. It's how people can zero with 2 rounds.
 
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#5
I thought knowing the inches per mil at a given range would be good for corrections. Or does it really matter to know? I mean I read somewhere that if you miss, you can just use the POA as the cross hair.
 
#7
goodgorilla said:
I thought knowing the inches per mil at a given range would be good for corrections. Or does it really matter to know? I mean I read somewhere that if you miss, you can just use the POA as the cross hair.
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter really.

If you can see the impact (POI)-where you missed you use the reticle to measure how far away the miss was in mils from/POA and compensate in mils for the correction.

I use a ballistic app via smartphone in conjunction with the Kestrel wind meter to determine a average wind speed and from what direction it comes from. Input that data then program gives a solution in mils down to the .1/or click for how far out to holdoff. So I'm never thinking in inches or feet just in mils.
 
#8
steve123 said:
Doesn't matter really.

If you can see the impact (POI)-where you missed you use the reticle to measure how far away the miss was in mils from/POA and compensate in mils for the correction.

I use a ballistic app via smartphone in conjunction with the Kestrel wind meter to determine a average wind speed and from what direction it comes from. Input that data then program gives a solution in mils down to the .1/or click for how far out to holdoff. So I'm never thinking in inches or feet just in mils.
Click to expand...

Seems like you need to know the inches part only if you are doing range estimation with known size. Also is appears possible to tell the size of something if you have a known distance.

I have the kestrel 4500v with applied ballistics coming in the mail, how can that (I want to say thing) tool tell the wind direction?

edit: How about this, you don't have a range finder or a known distance. You see a rodent hanging out off in the distance, wouldn't it be more accurate to estimate the size of the rodent opposed to the range of the object? Then use that to calculate a better range estimate?
 
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#9
The mil relations formula only needs to know the size of the target you are ranging and that can be in Inches, yards, Meters, Centimeters, etc. After that you need the "Mils" and not the inches a mil covers. The formula us not loose in the interpretation. Size of Target X Constant for the value / Size of target in the scope in MILS = the Range there is no inches unless you want to use the size of the target in inches.

Once you have a known distance you can work any formula backwards to get the size of the target. If you have the other parts of the formula, you can find out the missing part. This is basic math.

I would suggest a basic course in math, as you seem to not understand this part of it. If you know the Range you can figure out other elements in there.

Familiarize yourself with the formulas, it might shed some light on the subject, knowing the linear distance of a Mil does not figure in at all. It's unnecessary and you did not stumble on something new, by watching a poorly done video. Anyone can make a video, doesn't mean they know what they are saying or are explaining things correctly. Repeating numbers is easy... anyone can do it.

You bought a Kestrel and don't know anything about it ?

You hold in your hand at point it at the wind ... it doesn't know the direction, you do, it reads the velocity. You can use crosswind values, but I would suggest ignoring that part, you need to take a class first.
 
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#10
Lowlight said:
You bought a Kestrel and don't know anything about it ?

You hold in your hand at point it at the wind ... it doesn't know the direction, you do, it reads the velocity. You can use crosswind values, but I would suggest ignoring that part, you need to take a class first.
Click to expand...

I know a few things about the kestrel. I know it can get most of the environmental measurements I need to plug into the ballistics calculator it has onboard, and even blue tooth it to a smart phone (that I don't have personally) for ballistic applications. Some other cools stuff I have is a magneto chrono, leica lrf, reloading equipment and components for cartridges, seating depth tools, and some other stuff I can't remember at the moment. I have the tools, and now I am learning how to use them.

q knowing the linear distance of a Mil does not figure in at all. /q

edit: I think I got it, is not important to know the measurement between the mildot because that number is not in the equations. When you measure something in the scope you do it by mils, not by inches. If your target is measured in inches, you will still be measuring the thing in mils. If you use a known distance to calculate the size of something, the distance a mil covers still doesn't matter. Forgive me, lots of stuff going on at work. Why the hell did he write that triangle? It has nothing to do with range estimation. damn it.
 
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#11
goodgorilla said:
I am currently learning the mildot system the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAbaBYZa8iI it shows what a mil is at certain yards and their corresponding inches. For instance 1 mil at 100 yards = 3.6 inches. 1 mil at 200 yards = 7.2 inches, 1 mil at 300 yards = 10.8. Since the scope adjustment has .1 adjustment for mil radians, each click on the scope have different values at different ranges? Or does it all come down to bullet ballistics? I am having trouble putting the pieces together.

Edit: I can answer part of my question. When looking through the scope the distance between two dots is one mil, at variable distances the measurement of inches changes inside the mil. At 100 yards looking through the scope, the distance between the two dots (1 mil) translates to 3.6 inches. At 200 yards the distance between the two dots is 7.2 inches and so on. Also I should probably mention that you have to be on your true mil dot magnification for SFP, and any Magnification on FFP. I still don't see how the mil dot relates to the mil rads.
Click to expand...

I found this video series much easier to understand.................https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5AGsHSIsVo
 
#12
As Lowlight is implying - once you get it, it is far simplier than you think. The distance between mil dots is a mil. That's all that matters. Inches don't matter, use the reticle to measure how far off your impacts are an adjust accordingly. I have no idea how many inches is a .1 of a mil at 850 yards (I could easily calculate it, but why?), and there has only been one occasion that I wish I did.

There was a goofy COF at the Findlay Cup in 2012 where the target was hidden and the point of aim was 60 inches above at 550 yards - so I had to know how many mils was 60 inches at 550 yards to correct - that boggled me with a 30 second prep time, I'll admit.
 
#13
djskit said:
There was a goofy COF at the Findlay Cup in 2012 where the target was hidden and the point of aim was 60 inches above at 550 yards - so I had to know how many mils was 60 inches at 550 yards to correct - that boggled me with a 30 second prep time, I'll admit.
Click to expand...

I'm trying to figure this one out. So you would put the inches and yards into the equation which would give you the mils. Now the top of the mil value would have been the bottom of the target which is 60 inches above? Or was the center of the target at the top of the mil value? Point of aim is the center of the target?
 
#14
Yeah, so the answer was, 60 inches at 550 yards just about 3 mils. My dope at 550 was 3.3. So I dialed .3 and held center at the visable point of aim and hit the target.

To figure it out, I ended up using Ballistic AE's range finder ap and created a 60 inch target and scaled the mil slide util I got a 550 range, then read the mil value.

But I will say again, I've shot about 20 matches a year for the last 5 years (about 17 local club matches and 3 or 4 "away" matches) and that was the ONLY time I wished I was well versed in inches and mils.
 
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#15
djskit said:
Yeah, so the answer was, 60 inches at 550 yards just about 3 mils. My dope at 550 was 3.3. So I dialed .3 and held center at the visable point of aim and hit the target.
Click to expand...

I did the equation to get 3.03 mils, and your dope was 3.3. I don't understand dopes yet, but if your dope is higher than the answer, wouldn't you dial down .3? Or is it up?
 
#16
3.03 is correct...call it 3. So, 3.3 minus 3.0 is .3. I dialed .3 mils up.

Think of it this way - If I was using my mil reticle holding over (not dialing), I would hold .3 on the aiming point, but my 3.3 point would be on the target (if I could see it).

But we are diving in the deep end of the pool here...
 
#18
djskit said:
Click to expand...
I thought the aim point and the target point were .3 away from each other. If you had to dial up .3, wouldn't the target be around 3 low, and the aim point be at 3.3? So you would have to adjust up .3 so the aim point = the target?

Speaking of which, how can you tell if it's + or - mils? Like if your target was before your zero?
 
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#19
The point of the exercise in that particular match was that a visable point of aim was 60 inches above a hidden target at 550 yards. 60 inches at 500 yard is 3 mils so I adjusted my dope accordingly. That is the take-away.

We a little too deep in the woods at this point.
 
#20
djskit said:
The point of the exercise in that particular match was that a visable point of aim was 60 inches above a hidden target at 550 yards. 60 inches at 500 yard is 3 mils so I adjusted my dope accordingly. That is the take-away.

We a little too deep in the woods at this point.
Click to expand...

I was visualizing the problem wrong. I'm a noob super star. So what do learn next, dope or mildot master?
 
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#21
djskit said:
There was a goofy COF at the Findlay Cup in 2012 where the target was hidden and the point of aim was 60 inches above at 550 yards - so I had to know how many mils was 60 inches at 550 yards to correct - that boggled me with a 30 second prep time, I'll admit.
Click to expand...
Good drill but easily solved in five seconds with a Mil-Dot Master. Slide to the range on the left, look right to the target size and relative hold/adjustment.
 
#22
The past few days I was spotting for some other shooters who wanted their misses called in inches, while I was using a mildot spotting scope. I suppose I should have paid more attention to the inches per mil at different distances, or atleast wrote it down somewhere. anyhow my estimates were not so bad, but it would have been nice to be sure.
 
#23
To me it sounds like you have not grasped the basics for measuring angles with radians. It's really simple. Angle (in radians) = length of arc / radius of arc. At small angles you can say that the linear distance is equal to length of arc. For us shooters that means that the formula is angle = target size / distance to target or angle = miss distance / distance to target.

So far very simple. Now one need to realize that the mil reading is 1/1000 of a radian and if you don't use the metric system then you need to convert between inches and yards or whatever stupid unit you are using.


The formula is still simple if you use the same units for target size (or in this case miss distance) and distance to target.

Miss distance = mil reading x distance to target / 1000.

If you use inches and yards you need to add a conversion factor to the equation.

It's linear so if you know inches per mil att 100 yards then you just multiply with 8.3 at 830 yards.
 
#24
goodgorilla said:
The past few days I was spotting for some other shooters who wanted their misses called in inches, while I was using a mildot spotting scope. I suppose I should have paid more attention to the inches per mil at different distances, or atleast wrote it down somewhere. anyhow my estimates were not so bad, but it would have been nice to be sure.
Click to expand...

It's easy. Just remember a mil is 3.6" at 100 yards. For calculations good enough for your friends, just remember 3.5" per 100 yards, or you can very roughly divide the space between markings into quarters for 1" per hundred yards per quarter mil. If they are shooting at 800 yards and the splash is half a mil to the left, then 2(quarters = half) x 8(00 yards) = approximately 16". The true correction would be 14.4", which would be a 1.6" error.

If the splash is about 1 3/4 mil from the target, then 1 mil is ~3.5, as you now remember, and the additional 3/4 mil is another 3(quarters), making the multiplication factor of 6.5 (3.5 + 3). So, again at 800 yards, 6.5 x 8(00 yards) = approximately 52". The error would be 1.6" (again) from the true correction of 50.4".

In short, and roughly speaking, consider each full mil to be 3.5" per hundred yards, and each additional 1/4 mil is approximately one inch per hundred yards.
 
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#26
OP,

Get a data book. Before shooting, record your no-wind zero for X distance. This is called a starting zero. Then, determine sight adjustment believed necessary to counter for effects of wind and weather conditions. This is called your zero used. While firing, plot both calls and strikes; and, if shots are off call, indicating the need to correct sight setting for conditions, adjust sight to what appears needed, as sensed from the data book's visual representation of the call/strike corollary. After finished with shooting, record the setting on the sight which corrected the initial zero used. This is called the corrected zero. By annotating the data book at every range session, you will build confidence in your ability to range distance and counter for wind and weather, when observing conditions appearing similar to those earlier recorded.

The point is get out and just do it. Knowledge of what to do is not enough, you must practice.
 
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#30
I don't have a problem with calling mils, some shooters I was with wanted their misses called in inches. What I am thinking about doing until I get proficient is making a chart for inches per mil fractions per hundred yards. I understand that each 100 yards the inches per mil increases by 3.6, and after that I can use some math to get the inches. like 1.25 mils at 200 yards is 1.25 mils X (3.6 x 2) inches = 1.25 x 7.2 = 10.8 something (inches). I think it has already been said that there are 3.6 inches in a mil at 100, and each 100 yards the inches increase by 3.6.

The formula goes like this 3.6 inches x yards/100 x mils = inches missed

Like if you were shooting at 800, and missed by 2.5 mils:
3.6 x 800/100 x 2.5 = 3.6 x 8 x 2.5 = 72 inches missed.

I could just build some tables using this.

Damn, they might want it in feet at that point, not sure.
72/12 = 6 feet.
 
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#31
The easiest way to call misses for others using different angles of measure than you are is to call out using the target as the standard. That way it doesn't matter what the size of the target is. In other words say... you missed half a target right and even with the bottom. Another example/ or say - you hit 2 targets left but elevation was good. That way they aren't trying to think in inches or feet. Some poor saps are still using duplex or dot reticles and haven't got the foggiest idea where they should aim for wind in the first place.
 
#32
Wow! Stop, Just Stop. So much mental masturbation here.
If you are using Mils, FORGET ABOUT INCHES!! Erase inches from your shooting. They are not needed. Use Only Mils. Why use 2 different units of measure??
Are you really going to be using your scope to estimate ranges? Or how about just buy a rangefinder.
 
#33
DirtyDave said:
Wow! Stop, Just Stop. So much mental masturbation here.
If you are using Mils, FORGET ABOUT INCHES!! Erase inches from your shooting. They are not needed. Use Only Mils. Why use 2 different units of measure??
Are you really going to be using your scope to estimate ranges? Or how about just buy a rangefinder.
Click to expand...

I would prefer to use mils, but what if you were with a group and everyone you were with were like, Mils? How many inches is that?
 
#34
goodgorilla said:
I would prefer to use mils, but what if you were with a group and everyone you were with were like, Mils? How many inches is that?
Click to expand...

You tell them that Mils have nothing to do with inches. (neither does MOA in fact).
Dont mix 2 units of measure like Miles and Kilometers, or Grams and Ounces, or Gallons and Liters. Pick ONE and stick with it. No math or conversions needed. Inches are for tape measures, not shooting. Even if you are shooting MOA, and you are talking about inches, you are doing it wrong.
 
#35
If a shooter is using irons, such as the BDC sight on an M4 or M16A4, MOA will need to be converted to inches for a hasty windage favor. The shooter can quickly calculate by dividing distance by 100 times MOA. For example, 5 MOA at a 600 yards would look like this: 600 divided by 100 times 5 equals 30 inches. Also, understanding conversion from inches to MOA or mils is useful for making sight adjustments when using irons or a scope. My thought is a marksman would be smart to learn how to adjust sights in both mils and MOA, as well as convert to inches. It's all too easy to limit comprehension. Seeing when there is not a need to convert will become self evident. The objective is to learn how to adjust a sight to distance/conditions. Learn it all for what ever type of sight you have. Using a data book to record zeros used and corrected zeros from call/strike corollary will build confidence. See post #26.
 
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#36
Convert it from Mil into Moa then into meters, from meters I then convert into cubits, then into furlongs by fortnight next to leagues.....

Or, Just use a Mil for how it was intended. IMHO.
 
#37
It's pretty obvious at this point that some aren't reading through the thread before posting. The situation now is....

goodgorilla said:
The past few days I was spotting for some other shooters who wanted their misses called in inches, while I was using a mildot spotting scope.
Click to expand...

What I'd like to know is what are the shooters doing with your correction calls in inches? Do they even have a way to correct in inches using their reticles? Or are they just guessing by the apparent size of the target? The post mentioning giving corrections in relation to target size is right on if the latter is the case.
 
#38
M40_A1 said:
It's pretty obvious at this point that some aren't reading through the thread before posting. The situation now is....



What I'd like to know is what are the shooters doing with your correction calls in inches? Do they even have a way to correct in inches using their reticles? Or are they just guessing by the apparent size of the target? The post mentioning giving corrections in relation to target size is right on if the latter is the case.
Click to expand...

I really don't have a damn clue, they just didn't know mils. I'm not trying to be rude, I really don't know. But there is enough on this tread to keep me busy for awhile.
 
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#39
The novice is confused when he is told he does not need to convert. After all, using a mil relation formula for range finding, the shooter will need to know the size of target in inches, yards or meters, then he will multiply it by an appropriate constant to be divided by mils to get what, knowledge of distance to target in yards or meters. Just show the formula and leave the student alone with it to solve a dozen or so problems using the formula. He will eventually understand what is needed and what is not to get the job done.
 
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#40
OK, I am going to jump in here with a question at the risk of an ensuing beating! Yes, I am new at this.

I have a second focal plane mil dot scope with .1 increments. The manual says the following:

The scope is variable from 4X to 16X power.
The Mil-Dotbar is set to be 1 mil at 10X on the Zoom Ring. At this position, the Mil-Dot
and Mil-Dotbar is 3.6 inches at 100 yards. There is an indent at the 10X setting on the
Zoom Ring to aid in finding this position.

Does this mean that I must be at 10X to call the mils? Is a mil a mil at any power on a second focal plane scope?:confused:

Thanks
 
#41
Diver160651 said:
Yes, you need to be at 10x to make accurate calls without math. You'll have to use a modifier at other ranges.. That's why "first" focal plan scopes can be so nice. -- BTW all scopes should be calibrated my the end user. Litz's has some good stuff on this..

Jt
Click to expand...

Thanks.

I plan to get a first plane scope after I learn more. I am at the crawl stage. I have a REM 700 with a Millett scope. I think I need to learn the basics before I put more money into the scope. Cart before the horse and all...
 
#43
TimeOnTarget said:
OK, I am going to jump in here with a question at the risk of an ensuing beating! Yes, I am new at this.

I have a second focal plane mil dot scope with .1 increments. The manual says the following:

The scope is variable from 4X to 16X power.
The Mil-Dotbar is set to be 1 mil at 10X on the Zoom Ring. At this position, the Mil-Dot
and Mil-Dotbar is 3.6 inches at 100 yards. There is an indent at the 10X setting on the
Zoom Ring to aid in finding this position.

Does this mean that I must be at 10X to call the mils? Is a mil a mil at any power on a second focal plane scope?:confused:

Thanks
Click to expand...
No it mean that it should be calibrated at 10X. You need to confirm it.
 
#44
I spent many hours making a excel sheet in open office. The sheet has every inch measurement for every 25 yards from 25 to 1275 in .1 mil increments to 1.5 mils. The inches are rounded off to the .1 inches. After looking at the chart, I think if I rounded off all the inches to the inch, I could probably put on another .5 mils. The damn thing looks silly, but if you want it pm me your email, it looks pretty good for range finding.
 
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#46
T2CH said:
So you made a mildot master?
Click to expand...

Probably, I don't know how to use a mildot master. It looks decent for range finding, but that can be done with a calculator just as fast I would think to index it. I was thinking I could use this chart to see how accurate I am at judging mils. Like I could fire some rounds at a target and guess how many mils it was, then measure it to find out how close I was.
 
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#47
Diver160651 said:
One of the quotes I read (paraphrased here) -- my friends want calls in inches

I think the OP's confusion comes from thinking & visualizing shooting at short range. Sounds like he is trying to take things seen at your typical 100y range and work them further out. Inches have no real place in long range -- it is either MOA or MIL calls.

Here is an example: wind 0-30mph, 270-degrees with a typical 308 - shooter misses the wind call and pulls in the wrong gust

100 yards - you miss R by 2"
800 yards - you miss R by 170.6"


It is easy to see that inches are fine to use at super short ranges.. But who the hell is able to know what 170.6" looks like much less quickly hold or dial???

Learning and using the correct technique @ short range, and using MOA or Mill, you are prepared for when it really maters.

It is much easier if you think like this- And of course quickly & easily adjusted for with the mil sub-tensions in the scope:
100 yards - you miss R by 2" .56mil
800 yards - you miss R by 170.6" 5.9mil

Remember you don't need to know it was 2" or 170.6" just need to use your sub-tensions.

Now for ranging, were you need to know formulas-- that's different. As pointed out over and over both systems need constants..and both can use inches, yards or meters in the mix.

For most shooters, 99% of the time sub-tentions and turrets are used for drop and wind..... No formulas needed. OK, I lied, cosign (look angle) is needed on either system more often than is used ;)

Jt

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Click to expand...

I personally understand there is no reason to call inches, the shooters I was with wanted inches called out.
 
#48
goodgorilla said:
I spent many hours making a excel sheet in open office. The sheet has every inch measurement for every 25 yards from 25 to 1275 in .1 mil increments to 1.5 mils. The inches are rounded off to the .1 inches. After looking at the chart, I think if I rounded off all the inches to the inch, I could probably put on another .5 mils. The damn thing looks silly, but if you want it pm me your email, it looks pretty good for range finding.
Click to expand...

You'll never get that time back......
 
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