Military not 100% mil.....?

[Texaslongshot]

I was having a conversation with my friend on Mil vs MOA. I know this had been debated to the death and i understand both sides. I said for me the military is 100% mil and i see most of the shooting community being mil.

My friend who is an LEO and much better shooter than me said. The army is still using MOA. He said the army and marines are different. Obviously there is more than those 2.

But my question is. is the military not 100% percent mill?

I am open to being wrong.

 

[TurboTrout]

I was having a conversation with my friend on Mil vs MOA. I know this had been debated to the death and i understand both sides. I said for me the military is 100% mil and i see most of the shooting community being mil.

My friend who is an LEO and much better shooter than me said. The army is still using MOA. He said the army and marines are different. Obviously there is more than those 2.

But my question is. is the military not 100% percent mill?

I am open to being wrong.

Do you also look to the fat black lady at the DMV for life advice?

Looking to .gov for how to do things seems like a lesson in futility

You’d also probably be a better shot if you could force your neighbors to pay for your ammo, training and equipment

 

[NiteQwill]

The real question: why does it matter?

 

[Texaslongshot]

The real question: why does it matter?

It does matter because my friend is basically 100% MOA. He couldn't convert or operate with mils if he had too.

I can't even convince him you ought to learn both because our military operates in mils. (and the rest of the shooting community for the most part )

 

[NiteQwill]

It does matter because my friend is basically 100% MOA. He couldn't convert or operate with mils if he had too.

I can't even convince him you ought to learn both because our military operates in mils. (and the rest of the shooting community for the most part )

There is no right or wrong. If your buddy shoots MOA, oh well... he can keep doing so.

The only time it becomes a disadvantage is if you have 2 parties trying to communicate a solution for a correction downrange.

And just fwiw, 21+ years Army here, I talk in mils.

 

[Texaslongshot]

Do you also look to the fat black lady at the DMV for life advice?

Looking to .gov for how to do things seems like a lesson in futility

You’d also probably be a better shot if you could force your neighbors to pay for your ammo, training and equipment

yea this is not helpful in any way. not saying .gov is the place to look but on snipers hide i feel like the vast majority are MIL based.

I am not looking for a mil vs MOA debate that has been hashed out to the death here many times.

I asked a simple question if the army is still using MOA which you did not answer. So not helpful. There was really no reason for you to post.

 

[Rob01]

It does matter because my friend is basically 100% MOA. He couldn't convert or operate with mils if he had too.

I can't even convince him you ought to learn both because our military operates in mils. (and the rest of the shooting community for the most part )

If he can use MOA he can use mils. Just a different number to dial or hold. People get way to wrapped up in this stuff.

 

[Mike Casselton]

I shot MOA up until 3 years ago.
After buying my first Mil/ Mil optic it became abundantly clear how simple Mil was.
There's a ruler in the crosshairs that matches the turrets.
It's that simple.

BTW, MOA/MOA is just as easy...

 

[Texaslongshot]

There no right or wrong. If you're buddy shoots MOA, oh well... he can keep doing so.

The only time it becomes a disadvantage is if you have 2 parties trying to communicate a solution for correction downrange.

And just fwiw, 21+ years Army here, I talk in mils.

thanks for this response. I agree with you. I am just trying to provide perspective. I think the inability to talk in mils is a problem.

the problem is i am not military or LEO so i don't come from a position of authority.

To even say most of the shooting world operates in mils is challenged.

Hence why i asked about the military and the army still operating in MOA

 

[Tictacticaltimmy]

Maybe instead of trying to argue by appeals to authority you could explain to him the actual advantages of Mil over MOA?

And if you are incapable of doing that, why should he listen to you, and further why should you care what system he uses?

 

[hafejd30]

3.43

 

[TurboTrout]

yea this is not helpful in any way. not saying .gov is the place to look but on snipers hide i feel like the vast majority are MIL based.

I am not looking for a mil vs MOA debate that has been hashed out to the death here many times.

I asked a simple question if the army is still using MOA which you did not answer. So not helpful. There was really no reason for you to post.

Fair enough, not seeing why you, or anyone cares what measurement unit the govs army uses, but I’m sure you’ll get your answer soon, lots of mil types here

 

[acudaowner]

yea another of these post mil vrs moa use bacon at least it taste good while your pondering on the mil vrs moa thing . still don't get it eat more bacon the answer will come to you .

 

[stanley_white]

My friend who is an LEO and much better shooter than me said. The army is still using MOA. He said the army and marines are different. Obviously there is more than those 2.

But my question is. is the military not 100% percent mill?

I am open to being wrong.

How did your friend acquire this information?

Where did your friend acquire this information?

When did your friend acquire this information?

Are any of your friend’s answers to the above questions credible?

If your friend acquired the information from someone else, start the questions over again but focused on the someone else.

Chain of custody is important.

My gut tells me your friend is wrong, but that is my gut, and not information that I acquired from a credible source.

-Stan

 

[6.5SH]

Still plenty of Leopold Mk 4's with a Mil reticle and MOA adjustments in service (even though the M2 turret is a BDC).

 

[Trigger Monkey]

To answer the specific question regarding the Army still using MOA, yes they are. The Army's M110A1 SDM system is a paired with a Sig LVPO that has an MOA BDC reticle in it. Although a few years ago SOCOM selected a mil/mil NF ATACR as their new LPVO I'm sure some ACOG's and Elcans with BDC's can still be found in some arms rooms. However, sniper systems like the M2010, Mk13, and Mk22 use optics that are mil/mil, generally from S&B, Leupold, or NF. A couple of years ago Leupold announced their Mk5 in mil/mil form had been approved for the M110.

 

[Texaslongshot]

Fair enough, not seeing why you, or anyone cares what measurement unit the govs army uses, but I’m sure you’ll get your answer soon, lots of mil types here

Well this reason is if your going to invest money, training, and equipment into a system and you can either align with what military members are using in combat and if that aligns with what i would consider the top shooters in the county are using....prs....nightforce ELR i think that makes sense to align with everyone else is using if that makes sense. Once again this is not a MIL vs MOA debate this is what is the military and most of the shooting community using.

As as example if i am a house framer and i roll up using the metric system and i yell out measurements in centimeters and the rest of my crew is operating in inches thats a challenge. You can build a house using a metric tape measure but if your working with a crew using a different system its way more prone to error. my perception is the vast majority of the military and shooting community is using mils. correct me if i am wrong that the heart of my question.

 

[Rob01]

Well this reason is if your going to invest money, training, and equipment into a system and you can either align with

So are you going to go live in a barracks and have a foot locker because the military does it? Invest that money to align! Lol

 

[Texaslongshot]

To answer the specific question regarding the Army still using MOA, yes they are. The Army's M110A1 SDM system is a paired with a Sig LVPO that has an MOA BDC reticle in it. Although a few years ago SOCOM selected a mil/mil NF ATACR as their new LPVO I'm sure some ACOG's and Elcans with BDC's can still be found in some arms rooms. However, sniper systems like the M2010, Mk13, and Mk22 use optics that are mil/mil, generally from S&B, Leupold, or NF. A couple of years ago Leupold announced their Mk5 in mil/mil form had been approved for the M110.

thanks for your input. if i am reading this correctly concerning sniper type systems there are many legacy optics but our military is not currently purchasing MOA based "sniper/long range" optics

The LPVO is an MOA based BDC but we are not purchasing sniper scopes in MOA?

 

[hafejd30]

 

[cas6969]

Moalitery?

 

[6.5SH]

Moalitery?

It's MILOA, but we can only discuss it in February, see the Legendary thread list for details.

 

[MK20]

Mil is the superior system for ease of use and the ease of math concerning formulas developed recently for shooting.

All of SOCOMs long range guns are MIL AFAIK. I have never seen otherwise other than an ancient M107 and I have seen a bit. I am sure there are some legacy parts sitting in a room at Group somewhere but as far as what gets used, if it is dialed, it is almost always mils.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Does your buddy actually shoot along side of military members?
If not, why is that even part of the discussion with him?

MIL or MOA doesn't matter, except when someone in the group is using the opposite of everyone else. ^^^^ Refer to the house building analogy.
Yeah it can be done, but why?

Let your buddy try actually using a Mil/Mil optic while everyone else in the group uses the same.
Print out the reticle and explain how you dial and how you determine corrections. If you can trace the reticle on to a clear sheet and superimpose it over a simulated target, that's even better.
Make the callouts fast and make the shots fast. It won't take long to understand how it works.

Don't talk in inches, feet, yards, centimeters or meters for corrections. EVER.

The only time you should ever mention yards or meters is in LOS distance.

Then, switch him back to his rig with the MOA and hand him a sheet of paper, a pencil and the conversion formula.

Go back to shooting the same way as above and ask him to keep up.

He can't.



Going back to the discussion of military use. The government and the military in general has always been very slow to change doctrine, tactics and even worse, equipment. Between the services, some are much slower to adopt change, even when proving that the change is totally to their benefit.
Look how long it's taken to finally agree that optics (of any type) on the M-16 makes for better marksmen. Sheesh!!

The problem with adopting to change is not the troops on the front line, it's in the leadership. It's the "Well, we never had it and did fine" attitude that causes most of the reluctance to change. Add in that most of the military leadership doesn't want to take the necessary time to learn something new because it'll cut into coffee and donut time.

If your friend doesn't want a Mil/Mil optic, don't push it on him. Just have everyone else go about their business shooting and calling out in Mils.

Don't cater to him anymore.
^^^^^^^
Read that again.

Don't cater to him anymore.

Let him ride the Struggle Bus until HE decides it's time to switch buses.

 

[PlinkIt]

....Legendary thread list for details.

Is that actually a thing? ...

I usually just randomly find ridiculous threads here

 

[308pirate]

I was having a conversation with my friend on Mil vs MOA. I know this had been debated to the death and i understand both sides. I said for me the military is 100% mil

As has been explained already, the military is not 100% mils when it comes to sight adjustments

and i see most of the shooting community being mil.

Wrong. What you see here is a tiny, tiny slice of the shooting community. The majority of rifle shooters in this country have no idea what a milliradian is, and most don't even know how to use minutes of angle even though they think they do.

My friend who is an LEO and much better shooter than me said. The army is still using MOA. He said the army and marines are different. Obviously there is more than those 2.

Who cares?

 

[308pirate]

Well this reason is if your going to invest money, training, and equipment into a system and you can either align with what military members are using in combat

That's a stupid reason. We can buy better stuff than most of what the USG issues. Sig M17/M18, for example: trash.

and if that aligns with what i would consider the top shooters in the county are using....prs....nightforce ELR i think that makes sense to align with everyone else is using if that makes sense.

Top benchrest shooters don't use mils. Top NRA Palma and F class shooters don't use mils. You can shoot ELR with a MOA/MOA scope just fine.

 

[308pirate]

the problem is i am not military or LEO so i don't come from a position of authority.

I consider neither of those groups as authoritative when it comes to marksmanship or firearms.

Certain very small sub-groups within the military and police...........maybe.

The common grunt or beat cop? EL OH EL.......

Serious civilian enthusiasts and competitive shooters are more often than not far more knowledgeable and skilled than anyone in uniform.

 

[308pirate]

It does matter because my friend is basically 100% MOA. He couldn't convert or operate with mils if he had too.

The people who can't move from one system to the other don't understand the system they're using as well as they think they do. Simple as that.

I used to be all MOA and learning how to use mils was dead easy because I understand how angular measurements work. I also understand unit conversions (been doing them all my life).

 

[308pirate]

Does your buddy actually shoot along side of military members?
If not, why is that even part of the discussion with him?

MIL or MOA doesn't matter, except when someone in the group is using the opposite of everyone else. ^^^^ Refer to the house building analogy.
Yeah it can be done, but why?

Let your buddy try actually using a Mil/Mil optic while everyone else in the group uses the same.
Print out the reticle and explain how you dial and how you determine corrections. If you can trace the reticle on to a clear sheet and superimpose it over a simulated target, that's even better.
Make the callouts fast and make the shots fast. It won't take long to understand how it works.

Don't talk in inches, feet, yards, centimeters or meters for corrections. EVER.

The only time you should ever mention yards or meters is in LOS distance.

Then, switch him back to his rig with the MOA and hand him a sheet of paper, a pencil and the conversion formula.

Go back to shooting the same way as above and ask him to keep up.

He can't.



Going back to the discussion of military use. The government and the military in general has always been very slow to change doctrine, tactics and even worse, equipment. Between the services, some are much slower to adopt change, even when proving that the change is totally to their benefit.
Look how long it's taken to finally agree that optics (of any type) on the M-16 makes for better marksmen. Sheesh!!

The problem with adopting to change is not the troops on the front line, it's in the leadership. It's the "Well, we never had it and did fine" attitude that causes most of the reluctance to change. Add in that most of the military leadership doesn't want to take the necessary time to learn something new because it'll cut into coffee and donut time.

If your friend doesn't want a Mil/Mil optic, don't push it on him. Just have everyone else go about their business shooting and calling out in Mils.

Don't cater to him anymore.
^^^^^^^
Read that again.

Don't cater to him anymore.

Let him ride the Struggle Bus until HE decides it's time to switch buses.

In truth, a skilled shooter with an MOA/MOA scope is at zero disadvantage. It's just as easy to self spot and self correct with that scope as it is with an equivalent mil/mil scope.

And if someone gives you a correction in mils, just multiply x3 in your head for an approximate answer that will get you on target 99% of the time. Hey, shift right 1.5 mils............instant 4.5 MOA correction right. Go 2.7 mils left: 9 MOA left and boom.

 

[Mike Casselton]

I don't disagree with any of that

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

thanks for this response. I agree with you. I am just trying to provide perspective. I think the inability to talk in mils is a problem.

the problem is i am not military or LEO so i don't come from a position of authority.

To even say most of the shooting world operates in mils is challenged.

Hence why i asked about the military and the army still operating in MOA

This will really blow your mind.

The military and Law Enforcement are not the leading or cutting edge of shooting sports/discipline. They follow (By years or decades) what the civilian shooters are doing.

So no one gives a fuck about what the Military is doing or using, even those of us who spent a large portion of our life in uniform.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

That's a stupid reason. We can buy better stuff than most of what the USG issues. Sig M17/M18, for example: trash.



Top benchrest shooters don't use mils. Top NRA Palma and F class shooters don't use mils. You can shoot ELR with a MOA/MOA scope just fine.

I think it has more to do with fine adjustments than anything. 1/4 or 1/8 MOA is finer to dial in than 1/10 mil, although there are some .05 mil scopes out there.

The other thing is people shooting those diciplines are old as fucking dirt. Most are on fixed income and have no idea what the market is. Their options are worthless IMO, no matter how good of a shooter they are. Palma, Fclass, benchrest,ect are like watching paint dry. A appointment with the desntist would be more interesting.

The reality is, Anyone who is up to date with the last 20 years, is best served going with Mil based and FFP.

Mil is a superior system for a number of reasons and there is zero reason to not use it, unless you are too dumb to count to 10.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

In truth, a skilled shooter with an MOA/MOA scope is at zero disadvantage. It's just as easy to self spot and self correct with that scope as it is with an equivalent mil/mil scope.

And if someone gives you a correction in mils, just multiply x3 in your head for an approximate answer that will get you on target 99% of the time. Hey, shift right 1.5 mils............instant 4.5 MOA correction right. Go 2.7 mils left: 9 MOA left and boom.

More clicks

 

[6.5SH]

Is that actually a thing? ...

I usually just randomly find ridiculous threads here

Legendary Thread Reference

Figured it'd be nice to have a place to go to find some of the Legendary threads. They can be old ones (like gecko45), newer ones (like buddly or recoil control bipods), or even as a place to check what looks like it might turn into a Legendary thread. I've seen a few times where different...

www.snipershide.com

 

[hafejd30]

This will really blow your mind.

The military and Law Enforcement are not the leading or cutting edge of shooting sports/discipline. They follow (By years or decades) what the civilian shooters are doing.

So no one gives a fuck about what the Military is doing or using, even those of us who spent a large portion of our life in uniform.

Even less so with LE. If anyone thinks LE has the latest greatest they’re poorly mistaken. Most grants for LE departments are for stuff the military is getting rid of. Our departments latest and greatest were A2 M16’s. Stamped General Motor Company. Still in the box from Vietnam era.

Even if LE got the best there is 95% of them still wouldn’t know what to do with it. Most LE suck at shooting and many don’t have extensive weapons knowledge for what they carry everyday

If someone wants latest and greatest they should pay attention to ELR and PRS for cutting edge long range gear. Fclass and benchrest for pure accuracy and hog/coyote hunting for the latest in NV and thermal. At least the stuff available to civilians

 

[bohica17]

I was issued scopes that had mil adjustments, but turrets were in moa lol. Army has gotten their shit together somewhat since I got out. Shit was fun trying to explain to new guys.

 

[308pirate]

The other thing is people shooting those diciplines are old as fucking dirt. Most are on fixed income and have no idea what the market is.

You clearly have no idea of the money that goes into those sports. I get they don't interest you but don't make your biases show how ignorant you are.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

You clearly have no idea of the money that goes into those sports. I get they don't interest you but don't make your biases show how ignorant you are.

Oh i understand the money and anal retentiveness to be competitive in those disciplines. It would be like collecting rocks or painting warhammer figures on the fun scale.

Shooting Fixed KD targets and all that.

 

[smoothy8500]

The other thing is people shooting those disciplines are old as fucking dirt.

Well, OK you are ( maybe?) 98% right. However, for the other 2% I believe the Army Marksmanship Unit is still using Nightforce MOA. The last All Navy West/PAC Fleet matches I shot at Camp Pendleton the Navy Marksmanship and MCRD San Diego Teams still use moa scopes. Yeah, its a very small slice of the shooting sports: Square range, fixed distances, formal positions, blah, blah.....

And yes, as an avid participant of those disciplines, I have to agree that a game of golf has a faster pace....

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Well, you are ( maybe?) 98% right. However, for the other 2% I believe the Army Marksmanship Unit is still using Nightforce MOA. The last All Navy West/PAC Fleet matches I shot at Camp Pendleton the Navy Marksmanship and MCRD San Diego Teams still use moa scopes. Yeah, its a very small slice of the shooting sports: Square range, fixed distances, formal positions, blah, blah.....

And yes, as an avid participant of those disciplines, I have to agree that a game of golf has a faster pace....

Not the ones shooting PRS and other civy comps. I shot with 2 Army AMU guys at a PRS 2 day earlier this year and both were running mil/mil.

 

[smoothy8500]

Yes, but I was talking about the boring fixed KD stuff....So yes, it can be argued that the military is not 100% mil/mil. But it's a small percentage.

 

[NewsShooter]

Even less so with LE. If anyone thinks LE has the latest greatest they’re poorly mistaken. Most grants for LE departments are for stuff the military is getting rid of. Our departments latest and greatest were A2 M16’s. Stamped General Motor Company. Still in the box from Vietnam era.

Even if LE got the best there is 95% of them still wouldn’t know what to do with it. Most LE suck at shooting and many don’t have extensive weapons knowledge for what they carry everyday

If someone wants latest and greatest they should pay attention to ELR and PRS for cutting edge long range gear. Fclass and benchrest for pure accuracy and hog/coyote hunting for the latest in NV and thermal. At least the stuff available to civilians

When I bought my first long range rifle it was a Savage LRP 6.5CM with a vortex viper scope. I had a couple friends on the local LEO sniper squad. The let me come out on a practice day to zero it. When I opened the case they were all drooling, Most had wood stock rem 700 and leupold scopes. Foam and tape were used to set the correct cheek weld. This is in a department with nearly 500 officers.

 

[hafejd30]

When I bought my first long range rifle it was a Savage LRP 6.5CM with a vortex viper scope. I had a couple friends on the local LEO sniper squad. The let me come out on a practice day to zero it. When I opened the case they were all drooling, Most had wood stock rem 700 and leupold scopes. Foam and tape were used to set the correct cheek weld. This is in a department with nearly 500 officers.

Last I knew even state boys here had Rem 700 308 police models with Leupold MK4. One even had a VX 3 or something like that. Older scope. Mil dot reticle and covered tall moa turrets.

One PD which is about a mile from where I sit had (probably still has) a Rem 700 SPS Varmint with 20” 308 barrel. With a cheap Tasco or Simmons scope. They knew I was into long range and showed me where it was. I basically said (what’s the plan with that?) the answer was “its there if we need it.” Not assigned to anyone. Nobody knows if it’s even sighted in. And I didn’t see any ammo with the rifle

They aren’t shooting AI rifles, NF optics, most don’t even own a rangefinder, their NV is what most people give their kids to play with so they don’t break the good stuff. I’ve seen bushnell (knockoff eotech 512) that literally fell off the gun it was attached to. Which was mounted on a heat rail on a mini 14

You see the police responses lately to active shooters. Which should tell you the public is evenly equipped (or better) than those coming to stop the situations. Start adding people who are trained and adding distance as a factor and you’ll see LE shortcomings

Regardless if the optics are MIL/MOA or how many punisher skull stickers are plastered across their equipment

Now this isn’t every PD and every officer. Around here many own and carry their own weapons. Pending you qualify with it. Some of those guys are better prepared as they follow sites like this as gun enthusiasts, like everyone else here, and actually keep up with the current equipment and latest greatest as a hobby outside of work