Military vs Civi

[-Nick-]

Re: Military vs Civi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know Coast Guard that have seen more combat than many service members.</div></div>If you're in the coast guard, then you're in the Service. That said, I know many ordinary people who have seen more combat than members of our services who serve in combat units.

As for taking that first step outside the wire... try doing it unarmed to the teeth, like journalists do, then tell me that doing the same thing while armed, with friends who are also armed, in armored vehicles, with radios, backed by artillery, and if necessary having aircraft on tap, feels anything unlike traveling with all the comforts of home. </div></div>

Technically they're Homeland Security Dept now and not DOD, but I still consider them military just the same. I was simply using them as a reference as they are mostly active stateside as opposed to overseas.

 

[shark0311]

Re: Military vs Civi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Did you even read what I said? Let me re-type it in bold so you can clearly understand... <span style="font-weight: bold"> Not everyone who serves see's combat or even comes close to combat. Ergo your statement "Taking that first step outside the wire armed to the teeth is unlike anything else." means nothing unless that service member actually does.</span> I know Coast Guard that have seen more combat than many service members.


</div></div>

Now to answer your question. "That being said does it make me less of an American, less of a patriot and less of a man for not serving?"

No not less of an American or patriot but what makes you less of a man is giving up something that you were ambitious about because mommy, daddy and girlfriend said no.

Cowardice as defined by the Merriam-Webster Dictionary: lack of courage or resolution.

Your life is your own to live as you see fit. A little self analysis can go a long way. Determine who you are and who you want to be. Then make it happen or don't; the choice is yours.

Broker:

Reading comprehension? (combat arms)it is in the post...

The military experience cannot be summed up in a few words. I was simply expounding on one minuscule experience to emphasize the point that there is much that you will never know unless you take action.

Combat or not the lowliest paint chipper in the puddle police shares a common experience and camaraderie with other service members that is lost on you. There are many bonds of friendship that can develop through shared experience but none quite so keen as those who have resigned their lives in military service to their country.

If it was not an important experience or one that was easily understood the poster would not come here asking for justification for his failure to fulfill an ambition.

 

[shark0311]

Re: Military vs Civi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

As for taking that first step outside the wire... try doing it unarmed to the teeth, like journalists do, then tell me that doing the same thing while armed, with friends who are also armed, in armored vehicles, with radios, backed by artillery, and if necessary having aircraft on tap, feels anything unlike travelling with all the comforts of home.</div></div>

Why? The question was about military experience not about who is the bigger hard ass. The two experiences simply do not correlate. One serves the purpose of recording the other of killing. Your logic is lost on me.

 

[Grimm]

Re: Military vs Civi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BLAKSUNZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Growing up on the Mississippi Gulf Coast I have had the honor to meet many who have served our country in the Armed Forces. The military has a great influence in my hometown so it is only natural that I would develop respect for those people who currently or have served.

No matter how hardi tried, however, I never could bring myself to go into the armed services. It was always an ambition for me but I could not work up the nerve to do it. Call me a pussy or whatever but I still have the utmost respect for those who serve and would defend my country if called upon to do so (think the "draft").

<span style="font-weight: bold">That being said does it make me less of an American, less of a patriot and less of a man for not serving? </span>

Note: This rant/question came about from watching a reality show where those who served would bash all who did not. Can I not serve and still have respect for what you did to ensure my rights and freedoms stay strong?
</div></div>
Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and James Madison never served in the military. Anyone who would argue against thier patriotism and place as Americans is a fool. Your own manhood is yours to decide. There is a rather pointed difference between "superior" and "different". In a room of strangers servicemembers from the most disparate backgrounds have something in common. A fraternity of warriors. It's not so much about a status above civilians but that the rather closed society of the service creates rift between "us" and "them" and creates that very mentality. Our current society places a positive value on service, it was not always so. It may not always be so.

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: Military vs Civi

Grimm,

There is always groups that the American public divide themselves into. There will always be a division among the populace in those regards.

Does it make any of us less American? Fuck no.

But as anyone who has served can tell you, "freedom is a little bit sweeter"(paraphrased), after you have served simply because those who have served have given their time, energy, and rights that the rest of those who have not served, haven't given.

Still I can't guess the hardships of a random person walking down the street so that's why I treat everyone with respect irregardless.

 

[SeanRT]

Re: Military vs Civi

I have no problem with those who haven't served in the military so long as they're not like this college-educated, piece-of-shit, douche-bag:

http://rhinoden.rangerup.com/writer-contest-douche-of-the-week-–-almost-joined-the-military/

Concerning those in the military who deride civilians about not having served: in my experience this trash-talking comes from those who are what I call "military cherries." These individuals think that they are the baddest SOB's on the planet just because they joined one of the military branches. Typically, I've found that the majority of these A-holes are males between the ages of 17 and 23. I used to be one of those A-holes (now I'm just an equal opportunity offender, against both military and non-military stupidity).

The problem with our society is that everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) is taken for granted; all of our (now dwindling) freedoms, education, etc. When you haven't personally invested anything into your situation/ government/etc., you have no reason to care about it. That's why I think that it should be mandatory for all males (AND ONLY MALES) to serve in some service-type role for a minimum of two years (either civil servant or military).

I know that this next statement is overused and something of a cliché, but freedom is not free. So if freedom isn't free this implies that there is some sort of cost associated with freedom (the movie Starship Troopers has a scene about this exact subject). So how does the average citizen pay this "cost." I my humble opinion, you can "earn" your freedom in many different ways, not just by being in the military. That being said, what have you done to earn your freedom?

 

[Grimm]

Re: Military vs Civi

Arma,
I agree with everything you said. I rather poorly was just trying to put forward the point that the current status afforded those of the Armed Services is quite positive. This country has all too often fallen back on the Tommy Atkins syndrome.

I agree the most with your last point.

Mr300
Mandatory service works for some countries, I think perhaps not this one. But that's a pretty hefty discussion of the pros and cons of professional versus conscripted military forces.

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: Military vs Civi

Grimm. You made some valid points as well, most specifically the former presidents still being influencial, without having a military background.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Military vs Civi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimm17</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and James Madison never served in the military. Anyone who would argue against thier patriotism and place as Americans is a fool. Your own manhood is yours to decide. There is a rather pointed difference between "superior" and "different". In a room of strangers servicemembers from the most disparate backgrounds have something in common. A fraternity of warriors. It's not so much about a status above civilians but that the rather closed society of the service creates rift between "us" and "them" and creates that very mentality. Our current society places a positive value on service, it was not always so. It may not always be so. </div></div>

I personally was ready to concede that people who didn't serve had equal standing until this.

The above mentioned presidents were great Americans, and patriots, BUT I personally ( and most Ameicans, if you ask them to name our past presidents ) don't think these men have quite the same status as say George Washington. If you'll all stop and think about it, right up until recently ( and I'll explain that in just a few ), even at the presidential level, those remembered the best were true warriors. Ask random people to name America presidents, ones that lived before said person was born. you'll get George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin D. Roosevelt, John F. Kennedy, even Dwight D.Eisenhower. with 2 exceptions these men all served in the military and the two that didn't were President of the United States during a time of great conflict, Lincoln during the US Civil War, and FRD during WWII, as Commander in Chief, during times, that it can be argued that those whole generations were serving in some way, but even as CinC of the Armed Forces, it's not a stretch to say that the POTUS damn sure does, Lincoln was killed because of the Civil War, WWII basically ran FDR into his death bed.

Then after WWII, the American public had this idea that everyone sacrificed for freedom, freedom was won, and they didn't want their children to have to fight anymore. Military service became almost taboo, something only the poor unfortunates had to be subject to.

Well, that was a pipe dream, we still have wars, Korea, Vietnam, so forth and so on. But none of these conflicts hit home, so people of means figured out how to keep their babies out of it. Even Gulf War 1, which is when I enlisted, this is when we were starting to see a different attitude toward service. People I knew wouldn't enlist, but were proud that I did.

Then comes September 11th 2001, BAM it hits home, before long the military is turning people away, and not people who were looking for a way to improve their economic lives, people who just wanted to "do their part".

If you really don't think it elevates your status to serve your country in uniform, you just don't really get it, even male members of Britain's royal family serve in the British Military, and not always because they want to. This is how you get the "well, just serving doesn't mean you're not still a shitbag" statements. People JOIN for many reasons, pressure from family, lack of better opportunity, COLLEGE MONEY, etc.

BUT, they only SERVE for one reason, and people who find excuses not to SERVE, will never understand.

Not serving in the Armed Forces doesn't make you a NON American, or NON Patriot, but I don't see how you can say that anyone who wasn't even willing to sign up for a remote chance of bleeding for freedom is as much of a patriot.

Just one guys humble opinion, but unlike a LOT of people, I bled to earn the right to state mine... hell, I bled to earn YOUR right to state your's.

Jeff

 

[Zebra644]

Re: Military vs Civi

Blacksunz, my .02 worth.
If you want to get your college knocked out by all means go ahead,nothing wrong with that at all. See if they offer a ROTC Program, if not at least you have your degree and possibly seek military service afterward.The fiancee' well if she wants you stuck up her butt and not allow you to make decisions,especially with the economy being the way that it is, well whats that tell you. Whatever branch you look at see which one can offer you a job related field based off of your degree. And there are non combat related jobs that are also important. The guys in that are enlisted, you dont know what they are like as soldiers, They may be great friends but may lack in other areas. And as previously stated not everyone is suited for military service. You'r momma dont want her son to go off and be away, and of course your dad aint gonna piss momma off by telling you the opposite.
Not trying to sound like an A$$ and I appologize if I did. NOW
if you dont serve does that make you less of an American, I dont think so. Just as you said NRA membership, remember to take your hat off and place your hand over your heart when you hear the National Anthem, remember the Pledge of Allegiance, donate every now and again to various military related orginzations, thank a vet when you see one, be a law biding citizen. But I will say this, what is a few years out of your life? Lets say you get your degree in say Engineering? you can go say Navy be a SeaBee or be attached to ship as an Engineering Officer, spend 6 years in have all of your college paid for by the goverment, get experience, travel and see the world, if you dont like it leave, and you are debt free from college loans,and have been working in the field of your degree, and when you apply for a job as a civillian, who do you think they would hire? A kid straight out of college and no experience or a young man with both his degree and experience. If you do stay in,you can have a carrer with a retirement plan and helath care when you retire.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Military vs Civi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shark0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Did you even read what I said? Let me re-type it in bold so you can clearly understand... <span style="font-weight: bold"> Not everyone who serves see's combat or even comes close to combat. Ergo your statement "Taking that first step outside the wire armed to the teeth is unlike anything else." means nothing unless that service member actually does.</span> I know Coast Guard that have seen more combat than many service members.


</div></div>

Now to answer your question. "That being said does it make me less of an American, less of a patriot and less of a man for not serving?"

No not less of an American or patriot but what makes you less of a man is giving up something that you were ambitious about because mommy, daddy and girlfriend said no.

Cowardice as defined by the Merriam-Webster Dictionary: lack of courage or resolution.

Your life is your own to live as you see fit. A little self analysis can go a long way. Determine who you are and who you want to be. Then make it happen or don't; the choice is yours.

Broker:

Reading comprehension? (combat arms)it is in the post...

The military experience cannot be summed up in a few words. I was simply expounding on one minuscule experience to emphasize the point that there is much that you will never know unless you take action.

Combat or not the lowliest paint chipper in the puddle police shares a common experience and camaraderie with other service members that is lost on you. There are many bonds of friendship that can develop through shared experience but none quite so keen as those who have resigned their lives in military service to their country.

If it was not an important experience or one that was easily understood the poster would not come here asking for justification for his failure to fulfill an ambition.

</div></div>

The topic in question wasn't about "camaraderie" or "friendship" as you (and others now) try to change direction into what are the benefits of Service and why he should join. The issue at hand was the elitist attitude that many service members take against civilians. And nothing is lost on me. You know nothing about me or my past so you're making an assumption...

<span style="font-weight: bold">The question he asked was "That being said does it make me less of an American, less of a patriot and less of a man for not serving?"</span>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Concerning those in the military who deride civilians about not having served: in my experience this trash-talking comes from those who are what I call "military cherries." These individuals think that they are the baddest SOB's on the planet just because they joined one of the military branches. Typically, I've found that the majority of these A-holes are males between the ages of 17 and 23. I used to be one of those A-holes (now I'm just an equal opportunity offender, against both military and non-military stupidity).

The problem with our society is that everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) is taken for granted; all of our (now dwindling) freedoms, education, etc. When you haven't personally invested anything into your situation/ government/etc., you have no reason to care about it. That's why I think that it should be mandatory for all males (AND ONLY MALES) to serve in some service-type role for a minimum of two years (either civil servant or military).

I know that this next statement is overused and something of a cliché, but freedom is not free. So if freedom isn't free this implies that there is some sort of cost associated with freedom (the movie Starship Troopers has a scene about this exact subject). So how does the average citizen pay this "cost." I my humble opinion, you can "earn" your freedom in many different ways, not just by being in the military. That being said, what have you done to earn your freedom? </div></div>

+100...

 

[Grimm]

Re: Military vs Civi

Actually Jeff it's rather incidental that all three of those men were Presidents. I chose them because they are the ultimate patriots. Framers of the Declaration of Independance and the Constitution, men who rebelled against the most powerful intercontinental empire of their age. They also ushered our nation through revolution into a stable nation, much unlike France.

It's mostly just food for thought that military service does not always make a man. Few people actively remember presidents like Grant and Taylor who were not just military men but highly successful leaders. Americans are quite selective in their memory. So too are the British. While it an excellent point that members of the royal family and indeed most of the hereditary aristocracy of the UK to serve. Thier service is often a requirement of the state, endemic to thier title. That's why privates are called private soldiers, their service requirement is not contingent to their role in society.

In return for being disagreeable I'll say that in private and in the deep recesses of my heart I do believe that serving raises your status, and that I can fall into the trap of looking down on civilians.

 

[stefan73]

Re: Military vs Civi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BLAKSUNZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Growing up on the Mississippi Gulf Coast I have had the honor to meet many who have served our country in the Armed Forces. The military has a great influence in my hometown so it is only natural that I would develop respect for those people who currently or have served.

No matter how hardi tried, however, I never could bring myself to go into the armed services. It was always an ambition for me but I could not work up the nerve to do it. Call me a pussy or whatever but I still have the utmost respect for those who serve and would defend my country if called upon to do so (think the "draft").

That being said does it make me less of an American, less of a patriot and less of a man for not serving?

Note: This rant/question came about from watching a reality show where those who served would bash all who did not. Can I not serve and still have respect for what you did to ensure my rights and freedoms stay strong?
</div></div>

I'm writing this from Afghanistan and will tell you that the military is for some and not for all!!
We all have a part to play in the betterment of our country, society and the military is not the only way! Just being a good person is enough to make a positive difference.

 

[11B101ABN]

Re: Military vs Civi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shark0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since when did serving entitle one to a status above others? </div></div>

There is no entitlement to a "status" change created by military service. That being said people place a value on it. Just like anything else the value that the individual places on it can be swayed by the masses. The real question is what does it mean to you?

Military service (combat arms) cannot be replicated in the civilian world. The trials and tribulations are well outside the scope of what most would consider normal. In many cases it is a life changing event that follows the individual for the rest of their days. </div></div>

I beg to differ. It's all subjective on what one does in the Military. Just because one is in the Military doesn't mean they've seen combat and that their position can't be replicated in a civilian roles. I think LAPD, NYPD, FBI, CIA, and any Bouncer in SEAL alley would disagree with you as well.

I highly respect anyone that's served, but serving does not imply Combat, does not imply Excellence, and definitely does not imply Character. The Heroes that have fought and died for our Country weren't of less character prior to service. The service simply helped to provide them the tools and opportunity to excel as well as open their eyes to the potential of being greater than themselves.

"The Ultimate measure of a Man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and

convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." - Martin Luther King Jr.


</div></div>



Spoken like sopmeone who has no idea what he is talking about.

There is NO civilian equivelent to Combat Arms. None.

 

[stefan73]

Re: Military vs Civi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimm17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually Jeff it's rather incidental that all three of those men were Presidents. I chose them because they are the ultimate patriots. Framers of the Declaration of Independance and the Constitution, men who rebelled against the most powerful intercontinental empire of their age. They also ushered our nation through revolution into a stable nation, much unlike France.

It's mostly just food for thought that military service does not always make a man. Few people actively remember presidents like Grant and Taylor who were not just military men but highly successful leaders. Americans are quite selective in their memory. So too are the British. While it an excellent point that members of the royal family and indeed most of the hereditary aristocracy of the UK to serve. Thier service is often a requirement of the state, endemic to thier title. That's why privates are called private soldiers, their service requirement is not contingent to their role in society.

In return for being disagreeable I'll say that in private and in the deep recesses of my heart I do believe that serving raises your status, and that I can fall into the trap of looking down on civilians.
</div></div> There are other ways to serve!
There is a difference between lines of work when you are willing to put your life at risk on a daily basis.

The challenge I have is talking to civilians. We talk different and look at things diferently in many instances. On my way back from my first tour in Iraq a gentleman asked me how Iraq was. I realy didn't know how to respond! I told him the tea was great and then left it at that. How could I explain combat to him??? Hell us soldiers can't even explain it to each other. It a unique beast which means different things to each of us. For me it was the greatest rush ever, almost like skydiving. Tell that to most civilians and they think your a freakin nut. Tell that to miitary mental health pro's and they will think the same.
Its a strange world.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: Military vs Civi

back when I was a grunt we used to say the civilian equiv is a unique and by the smell, distinct blend of ditch digger, pack mule, and due to a distinct lack of constitutional rights, convict chain gang.

Fun times, fun times...

 

[Esselbach]

Re: Military vs Civi

Military service shouldn't be a requirement nor be a prerequisite to be a patriotic American. I enlisted while I was 18 to do something useful and serve my country while I decided what to do with my life. I even got to spend an eventful year conducting route clearance ops around Ramadi in '06-'07 that changed my life in more ways than I know.

Since I got out, I've gained a better understanding of American history, current events, and the fundamental values/principles that our country were founded upon. Because of this, my opinions on our foreign policies have changed. I did my best to serve with honor and pride. But politics aside, I'm losing the pride I once had in my status as a combat vet, to the point where I have been unconsciously trying to unassociate myself from my military past.

Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for the troops. It is the politics and policies at the top that I disagree with. Unfortunately, some people can't separate the two. I have been told nasty things, even from guys I deployed with because they misrepresented disagreements with foreign policy as a personal attack on them.

But anyway, pardon me for going off topic...

Even though I no longer serve in the Military, I will continue serving my country by working hard, being responsible and independent, to become active and involved in my community, by striving to be an informed citizen, and ultimately trying make the world around me a better place.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Military vs Civi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 11B101ABN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shark0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since when did serving entitle one to a status above others? </div></div>

There is no entitlement to a "status" change created by military service. That being said people place a value on it. Just like anything else the value that the individual places on it can be swayed by the masses. The real question is what does it mean to you?

Military service (combat arms) cannot be replicated in the civilian world. The trials and tribulations are well outside the scope of what most would consider normal. In many cases it is a life changing event that follows the individual for the rest of their days. </div></div>

I beg to differ. It's all subjective on what one does in the Military. Just because one is in the Military doesn't mean they've seen combat and that their position can't be replicated in a civilian roles. I think LAPD, NYPD, FBI, CIA, and any Bouncer in SEAL alley would disagree with you as well.

I highly respect anyone that's served, but serving does not imply Combat, does not imply Excellence, and definitely does not imply Character. The Heroes that have fought and died for our Country weren't of less character prior to service. The service simply helped to provide them the tools and opportunity to excel as well as open their eyes to the potential of being greater than themselves.

"The Ultimate measure of a Man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and

convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." - Martin Luther King Jr.


</div></div>



Spoken like sopmeone who has no idea what he is talking about.

There is NO civilian equivelent to Combat Arms. None. </div></div>

As you speak like a typical Soldier that believes you're in some elitist service that no civilian could ever understand. I know plenty of Private Contractors that were never in the Service and see just as much if not more than 1/2 the army. Only difference there is they can't call for air or artillery support and have no protection under the Geneva Convention (Not that the enemy observes it anyways).

Either way, it still does NOT make you more of a Patriot, a better American, or above anyone else in any way. It only means you have a different skill set.

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: Military vs Civi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Broker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 11B101ABN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Spoken like sopmeone who has no idea what he is talking about.

There is NO civilian equivelent to Combat Arms. None. </div></div>

As you speak like a typical Soldier that believes you're in some elitist service that no civilian could ever understand. I know plenty of Private Contractors that were never in the Service and see just as much if not more than 1/2 the army. Only difference there is they can't call for air or artillery support and have no protection under the Geneva Convention (Not that the enemy observes it anyways).

Either way, it still does NOT make you more of a Patriot, a better American, or above anyone else in any way. It only means you have a different skill set.
</div></div>

This is a decent topic, and there is an outstanding amount of brainstorming between the members.

It's worthy of NOT becoming locked, and I would hate to call in a Moderator, just because the two of you started a little hissy fit, based off of the inability to trade your beliefs without a personal attack.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Military vs Civi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimm17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually Jeff it's rather incidental that all three of those men were Presidents. I chose them because they are the ultimate patriots. Framers of the Declaration of Independance and the Constitution, men who rebelled against the most powerful intercontinental empire of their age. They also ushered our nation through revolution into a stable nation, much unlike France.

It's mostly just food for thought that military service does not always make a man. Few people actively remember presidents like Grant and Taylor who were not just military men but highly successful leaders. Americans are quite selective in their memory. So too are the British. While it an excellent point that members of the royal family and indeed most of the hereditary aristocracy of the UK to serve. Thier service is often a requirement of the state, endemic to thier title. That's why privates are called private soldiers, their service requirement is not contingent to their role in society.

In return for being disagreeable I'll say that in private and in the deep recesses of my heart I do believe that serving raises your status, and that I can fall into the trap of looking down on civilians.
</div></div>

Grimm,

My point was that there ARE several ways to serve, and military service doesn't make you more American.

People who serve for the right reasons, not the ones who just want the college money, or who are required to serve by the state, or are serving because they have no other opinion in life, even though people who start service for these reason may serve for the right reasons later. People who serve for country, community, family, friends, and even strangers. Politics be damned, because I even served so that people could be on welfare, even though I politically disagree w/ welfare. People who serve to serve, who say "I'm here to kill or DIE because people may need me to", those people are something special.

The only other people who have this status in my opinion are GOOD cops and firefighters.

You're right about the founding fathers, but not really, because any one of them would have been hanged as a traitor, in fact several had to flee the British forces. So my arguement there is that they were in fact standing and putting their lives on the line.

I guess we'll just disagree about what Presidents are remembered, even if you did name a couple more warriors, doesn't mean they wouldn't be remembered by others.

 

[Graham]

Re: Military vs Civi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shark0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your logic is lost on me. </div></div>The strategy of modern warfare requires integration of the complexity of reality.

Terrorists truly believe that killing themselves for their cause is a form of love. But the 'love' shown by the killer is limited and destructive.

When we fight an ideological enemy it is our humanness that becomes our power: When we expend our energy as a nation to prevent the subjugation of others the fight is already won.

It is only lost when we ourselves give up. Why? Because ours is a collective form of love that transcends self-interest and hatred.

It's the difference between builders and destroyers.

So, what's important is who you are when you step outside the wire, not what you are carrying or what you are planning to do.

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: Military vs Civi

Now while looking, I came across this poster. Which is more relevant to the topic at hand and shows you the humility that most service members have.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Military vs Civi

actually just the opposite of who I'm talking about

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: Military vs Civi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: force_multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">actually just the opposite of who I'm talking about </div></div>

My mistake. I changed my post. I had a specific problem on my end when I was in the service, to that degree.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Military vs Civi

Serving or not serving has no bearing on if you are a proper citizen or patriot. I have seen service members who left the service and became a shit sandwich. Rape, theft, murder, drug dealing, etc. Their ill-doing undid any good they did for our country when in uniform.

Now I do feel that placing your life on the line in defense of freedom, human rights and our home is one of the highest honors there is. It doesn't matter if you do it as a member of the armed forces, law enforcement or humanitarian service. All are noble and needed.

However, be VERY, VERY careful about the choices you make now. I am very lucky in the fact that if I die going through a door tomorrow I will do so with no regrets other than leaving my family behind. I can't imagine what it would be like to always live my life wondering "what if". I have spent most of my adult life in one uniform or another serving our country. If I could do it all over again, I would.

Dare to be great, or die wishing you had.

 

[-Nick-]

Re: Military vs Civi

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Serving or not serving has no bearing on if you are a proper citizen or patriot. I have seen service members who left the service and became a shit sandwich. Rape, theft, murder, drug dealing, etc. Their ill-doing undid any good they did for our country when in uniform.

Now I do feel that placing your life on the line in defense of freedom, human rights and our home is one of the highest honors there is. It doesn't matter if you do it as a member of the armed forces, law enforcement or humanitarian service. All are noble and needed.

However, be VERY, VERY careful about the choices you make now. I am very lucky in the fact that if I die going through a door tomorrow I will do so with no regrets other than leaving my family behind. I can't imagine what it would be like to always live my life wondering "what if". I have spent most of my adult life in one uniform or another serving our country. If I could do it all over again, I would.

Dare to be great, or die wishing you had. </div></div>

Exactly...