Rifle Scopes mils vrs. moa for scopes??

[KYS]

KYS go back and read my post.

The whole reason I said there are different radicals is because there are different venues of shooting. I compared NRA (you could include F-Class) with precission steel shooting. In precision I agree the MIL/MIL works best. In High Power the MOA works best.

If you only shoot one venue, then you only need to learn one radical, but if you switch from precision to high power and back and forth you need to learn both.

And again, if you read my post instead of just taking bits and pieces I explained why a MOA scope is better in NRA LR, because you shoot both iron sights and scopes. If you're shooting the same right, same target with two separate sighting systems then it would make since the two have the same type of adjustments. I really don't see how that is beating around the bush.

We all know there are different rifle shooting venues just as there are different pistol shooting venues and shot gun venues.

Kraig, go back and learn to read the whole post! You can't claim I am reading bits and pieces of yours when you clearly did not read the last line of mine.

I said that I believe different people will find different methods of adjustment will work for them. I may prefer MIL while the next guy in line prefers MOA. It's not right or wrong.
My preference is the MIL because it's easier to work with.

 

[KYS]

I just caught that. Odd Statement. Apparently you haven't shot many HP 1000 yard matches. We know the X-10 ring is 20 inches, we also know there aren't that many cleaned targets. I suggest you check the LR range scores at Perry and see how many people you'd have packing their bags. If you can shoot cleans at NRA LR matches every time you'd be in the record book.

And again, you are talking about iron sights..... in the 21st century we shoot long range with magnified optics. There is no way in hell you can look thru irons and be like "damn I sure need to correct 5" and make that adjustment at 1000 yards. You cannot see that far without the aid of optics. No arguing that.

Are you actually going to argue with a magnified optic and the correct conditions it is not possible to ring a 20" target @ 1000 yards with consistency?!

 

[kraigWY]

And again, you are talking about iron sights..... in the 21st century we shoot long range with magnified optics. There is no way in hell you can look thru irons and be like "damn I sure need to correct 5" and make that adjustment at 1000 yards. You cannot see that far without the aid of optics. No arguing that.

Are you actually going to argue with a magnified optic and the correct conditions it is not possible to ring a 20" target @ 1000 yards with consistency?!

No Sir.

I'm not talking about iron sights. I'm talking scopes ( or both)

When you shoot a HP LR 1000 yard matches you normally shoot "3" matches (4 if you are shooting the team match.

Match 1: Any Rifle/Any sights, scopes are normally shot in this match.
Match 2: Any Rifle/Iron sights, normally use the same rifle, removing the scope and attaching something similar to the Redfield International or Palma sights
Match 3: Service rifle, when I started out this was being switched from the M1 to the M14, now its shot with ARs mostly

Throwing out the 2 & 3 matches you still don't see that many "cleaned targets", if you can keep your shots in the X-20 ring every time, you're gonna be in the record books. You get cleaned targets, but they are rare.

There is no way in hell you can look thru irons and be like "damn I sure need to correct 5" and make that adjustment at 1000 yards.

Its done all the time, that's why we use spotting scopes.

 

[Lowlight]

This has evolved into a turbo stupid discussions with people going off into left field trying "prove" a point...

The fact is, we are talking about MODERN RIFLE SCOPES ... PERIOD!

How manufacturers make and market the scopes they currently sell, what that means.

Presently there is MOA, Mils and IPHY on the market. We clearly know there is a compounding error if you interchange MOA and IPHY, which can be as much as 20" @ 1000 yards for the average person shooting a 308. If you use more dope it is more, if you use less dope it is less. But the error is worthy of your consideration.

Mil based scopes are all made and marketed based off the same value, MOA scopes are marketed as MOA but can be mistakenly built as IPHY and not sold as such.

What this error can do for the shooter is incorrectly use a ballistic computer, incorrectly adjust corrections and incorrectly measure (range) distances. If you are a lone person doing it all yourself in your back 40, it does not matter, if you are attempting to take a class or compete in something other than NRA HP it can cause a miss for UKD shots.

When deciding what scope to buy, listen to people living in the modern era and not distracting from these basic facts. Matching the Turret to the Reticle is concern number 1, understanding the benefits and use is concern number 2, and not believing in the mythology that you "think" in specific way. We don't need to think we can simply read the reticle which should match your turrets. Target size is completely unnecessary, it only applies to ranging with a formula (reticle) You do not hold to hit a target based on its size, but on your accuracy. The goals is to hit center of your aiming point, and not within a measured distance laid out in inches. Adjusting Dope both windage and elevation are equally the same in Mils and MOA, there is no difference, you adjust the same way.

All this other personal justification for "why" is meaningless to the facts of the matter... and if anything have proven how convoluted MOA / IPHY can be because people automatically want to apply a linear value (line distance) to the angular form of adjustment. This is unnecessary and distracting. We have learned how to actually use these scopes in ways they did not 40 years ago. So dont fall into that trap.

 

[Lowlight]

LowLight - My last two scopes were MIl/MIL S&B and Vortex, but I was always curious why the course adjustment of .1mil per click. You mentioned there is one out with 0.05mil per click. Can you please post up what that scope is?

Thanks,
Bill

Leupold
March
Zeiss

S&B has the 12-50x56 which is .25CM also ...

 

[tylerw02]

Damn, lowlight can say the same thing as me and make it make so much more sense. I still don't think Kraig is going to get it. We've tried. Hopefully any new shooters won't be confused by what he's saying.