Im wanting to "assemble", meaning gather components, bed the rifle, mount the scope, a .308 to shoot to 800 yds. What am I looking at to build a 1/2 MOA rifle, including glass? Will probably build 4 almost identical, kind of a buddy project. Feel free to suggest components as well. Already leaning towards the SS 10x HD for the glass, budgeting $1,000 for glass either way. Pretty open after that. I learned to shoot on M40A1, so it will have those general charactoristics I suppose for familiarity, although im not trying to build a clone or anything like that. Looking for a minimum number here. Thanks for your input.
Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
- Thread starter dsb8541
- Start date
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
You first need to find a good smith to assemble the rifle. Don't cheap out here or you will really be sorry. 6mmbr.com has a top smith page available and thus far I have experince with Clay spencer and Bob green. Both do great work so it just comes down to a good smith thats not terribly backlogged. As for the rifle I suggest you pick up a Stiller tac 30 action. Its not much more than a trued Rem 700 and is a great clone and can ship with a rail and a trigger. If you want a DBM you can choose Seekins, Badger, Surgeon and not go wrong. Find a barrel contour that you like from a known company like Shillin kreiger ect. A Krieger MTU is nice or a conventional M40 contour will do. Pick up a nice blank with a 1/12, 1/11, or 1/10 twist. Then find a stock you like that can be inleted for your products. Mcmillan, Manners ect. Send it all to the smith and wait. after about 3 months and about 2,500 dollars later you have a kick ass rifle. PS. The smith will ask what type of chamber you would like so you may want to ask what they have in shop. 308 no neck turn match, with a short throat is probably what you would like.
You first need to find a good smith to assemble the rifle. Don't cheap out here or you will really be sorry. 6mmbr.com has a top smith page available and thus far I have experince with Clay spencer and Bob green. Both do great work so it just comes down to a good smith thats not terribly backlogged. As for the rifle I suggest you pick up a Stiller tac 30 action. Its not much more than a trued Rem 700 and is a great clone and can ship with a rail and a trigger. If you want a DBM you can choose Seekins, Badger, Surgeon and not go wrong. Find a barrel contour that you like from a known company like Shillin kreiger ect. A Krieger MTU is nice or a conventional M40 contour will do. Pick up a nice blank with a 1/12, 1/11, or 1/10 twist. Then find a stock you like that can be inleted for your products. Mcmillan, Manners ect. Send it all to the smith and wait. after about 3 months and about 2,500 dollars later you have a kick ass rifle. PS. The smith will ask what type of chamber you would like so you may want to ask what they have in shop. 308 no neck turn match, with a short throat is probably what you would like.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
dsb8541,
Although I agree with Bill, just buy factory LTR's and shoot the snot out of them, you asked for some numbers to build a LTR Clone, so here goes:
Actions: Naked Rem 700 actions are hard to come by, so instead buy a Rem 700 SPS Tactical for around $550. Sell off the Hogue stock, barrel, recoil lug, bottom metal and Mark X trigger. That should net you about $200., meaning you spent a net of $350. for the action alone. So, now let's run some numbers:
Action: $350
Barrel: Krieger SS $280.
Barrel Installation chambering/truing by Kreiger: $260.
Fluting: $95.
Recoil Lug Badger: $25.
Trigger: Timney: $120.
Stock: H-S Precision PSV-096 $313.
Skim Bedding Stock: $100.
Bottom Metal H-S Precision DBM: $280.
Scope Bases Seekins Precision 20 MOA: $100.
Scope Rings Seekins Precision: $110.
Cerakote barreled Action one color: $160.
Scope SS 10x42HD: $800.
Grand total: $2993. with optics, for a compete rifle package, and go shoot. This is a no single gunsmith type build. You part out the work. Kreiger does the all the barrel work, chambering, headspacing, installation and lug lapping. Then using Fosnaugh Customs to do the bedding and Cerakoting.
As a comparision: if you bought a factory LTR, your total would be $1935. broken down as follows:
Rifle: $925
Bases and Rings: $210.
Scope: $800.
So putting the rifle together in parts costs about $1K more, than off the shelf. For that $1K, you would get a much better barrel and stainless to boot, a better trigger, a DBM system, a bedded rifle, a trued action, and Cerakoted Metal .
YMMV.....
dsb8541,
Although I agree with Bill, just buy factory LTR's and shoot the snot out of them, you asked for some numbers to build a LTR Clone, so here goes:
Actions: Naked Rem 700 actions are hard to come by, so instead buy a Rem 700 SPS Tactical for around $550. Sell off the Hogue stock, barrel, recoil lug, bottom metal and Mark X trigger. That should net you about $200., meaning you spent a net of $350. for the action alone. So, now let's run some numbers:
Action: $350
Barrel: Krieger SS $280.
Barrel Installation chambering/truing by Kreiger: $260.
Fluting: $95.
Recoil Lug Badger: $25.
Trigger: Timney: $120.
Stock: H-S Precision PSV-096 $313.
Skim Bedding Stock: $100.
Bottom Metal H-S Precision DBM: $280.
Scope Bases Seekins Precision 20 MOA: $100.
Scope Rings Seekins Precision: $110.
Cerakote barreled Action one color: $160.
Scope SS 10x42HD: $800.
Grand total: $2993. with optics, for a compete rifle package, and go shoot. This is a no single gunsmith type build. You part out the work. Kreiger does the all the barrel work, chambering, headspacing, installation and lug lapping. Then using Fosnaugh Customs to do the bedding and Cerakoting.
As a comparision: if you bought a factory LTR, your total would be $1935. broken down as follows:
Rifle: $925
Bases and Rings: $210.
Scope: $800.
So putting the rifle together in parts costs about $1K more, than off the shelf. For that $1K, you would get a much better barrel and stainless to boot, a better trigger, a DBM system, a bedded rifle, a trued action, and Cerakoted Metal .
YMMV.....
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
I should mention that if you desire a rifle that shoots 4" at 800 all day then you need to reload. Also this may be a pipe dream with out a custom rig.
I should mention that if you desire a rifle that shoots 4" at 800 all day then you need to reload. Also this may be a pipe dream with out a custom rig.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
mine shoots under 1 MOA right out of the box... if I could get my fliers under control, which I'm pretty sure is just me screwing up, it would probably be very close to .5 MOA.
I paid $900 for the rifle, about $250 for base and rings, and $1200 for the scope... I'm sure it would shoot just as well with a $450 vortex viper though.
mine shoots under 1 MOA right out of the box... if I could get my fliers under control, which I'm pretty sure is just me screwing up, it would probably be very close to .5 MOA.
I paid $900 for the rifle, about $250 for base and rings, and $1200 for the scope... I'm sure it would shoot just as well with a $450 vortex viper though.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
A lot has been covered already but I will add what I think are bare minimums.
(1) a custom high quality barrel. Do not skimp here it is the majority of the rifles accuracy and repeatability.
(2) a good gunsmith to epoxy bed the action to the stock.
(3) a tuned or aftermarket trigger.
I think these are the bare minimum. A lot of the other features on custom rigs are creature comforts (except blueprinting). I had a factory remington action rebarreled with a match chambered .308, a tuned trigger, and epoxy bedded. I shot 40 rnds into 3/8" average. Total cost for everything above would be $600 on top of base cost of rifle. Get an sps and you would be $1100 into the rifle.
There is always the savage stevens route too with a prethreaded and chambered barrel if you need to save more money.
Whatever the case rebarrel with a good barrel, and gunsmith! This is most important! Everything else could be done incrementally as upgrades over time. I.e. stocks, aftermarket trigger, scopes, etc. This will give you a solid 1/2moa rifle. The rest will be up to you.
If you don't have reloading equipment I would suggest going the savage route and using the surplus of funds to buy reloading equipment. Much easier to tune your rifle to 1/2moa with handloads, and it can save you money on ammo in the long run.
The SS is a fine scope. Even the bushnell 3200 would work great to get you started.
A lot has been covered already but I will add what I think are bare minimums.
(1) a custom high quality barrel. Do not skimp here it is the majority of the rifles accuracy and repeatability.
(2) a good gunsmith to epoxy bed the action to the stock.
(3) a tuned or aftermarket trigger.
I think these are the bare minimum. A lot of the other features on custom rigs are creature comforts (except blueprinting). I had a factory remington action rebarreled with a match chambered .308, a tuned trigger, and epoxy bedded. I shot 40 rnds into 3/8" average. Total cost for everything above would be $600 on top of base cost of rifle. Get an sps and you would be $1100 into the rifle.
There is always the savage stevens route too with a prethreaded and chambered barrel if you need to save more money.
Whatever the case rebarrel with a good barrel, and gunsmith! This is most important! Everything else could be done incrementally as upgrades over time. I.e. stocks, aftermarket trigger, scopes, etc. This will give you a solid 1/2moa rifle. The rest will be up to you.
If you don't have reloading equipment I would suggest going the savage route and using the surplus of funds to buy reloading equipment. Much easier to tune your rifle to 1/2moa with handloads, and it can save you money on ammo in the long run.
The SS is a fine scope. Even the bushnell 3200 would work great to get you started.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
To get to 1/2 MOA you will have to go beyond the rifle and take into account the quality of your ammunition.
The FN SPR actions work well, and are a good value for the kind of thing you are suggesting. A barreled action, non chrome lined, should get you to 1 MOA bedded correctly. Half MOA will require a custom barrel and load development.
To get to 1/2 MOA you will have to go beyond the rifle and take into account the quality of your ammunition.
The FN SPR actions work well, and are a good value for the kind of thing you are suggesting. A barreled action, non chrome lined, should get you to 1 MOA bedded correctly. Half MOA will require a custom barrel and load development.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
I have built numerous PSS and LTR rifles for shooters and here's what I did and the cost..
Use out of the box PSS, LTR or varmint rifle.
1) Rebarrel with quality aftermarket bbl
true action as need. ( some factory 700's are so good that they need Zero or little truing. I know many 1000 yard benchrest shooters that shoot untrued 700s and they have NO disadvantage whatsoever) Many gunsmiths will tell you that you Must true an action to achieve a certain degree of accuracy...BS. however...some 700's need a fair amount of work.
2) Trigger job- most 700's can simply have their adjustment screws turned and you can end up with a very nice trigger. A 40 trigger kit can be had for around $20 and you change a few parts over to your 700 trigger to get a nice triger.
If you use a factory stock or an inexpensive aftermarket stock, you "MAY" need to skim bed. I had a few PSS stocks where the bedding block was off so much, that you coud see the bbl way off to one side and on another the barrel was cocked so at the end of the bbl channel by the forend, the bbl was touching the stock and there was a big gap on the other side!
That's it. All of these rifle must shoot 4 consecutive 5 shot groups at 100 yards and the same at 200 yards and that's how I determine the rifle's acuracy. I don't do 1- 3 shot group at 100 yards and say it's a 1/4 moa rifle.
Total cost including new rifle purchase around $1500
sell takeoff bbl for $100 or so and you have a pretty sweet rifle for $1400
I have owned a number of SS scopes and would NEVER own another again. They are so hit or miss that it just isn't worth it. And try and get one repaired ...laugh
If you can afford a used quality scope, you are much better off.
If that's too expensive.. I have removed factory bbls, cut and rechambered with a match reamer, recrowned and lapped the bbls for around $200 and that has sometimes reduced groups significantly along with a trigger job.
Best of Luck
I have built numerous PSS and LTR rifles for shooters and here's what I did and the cost..
Use out of the box PSS, LTR or varmint rifle.
1) Rebarrel with quality aftermarket bbl
true action as need. ( some factory 700's are so good that they need Zero or little truing. I know many 1000 yard benchrest shooters that shoot untrued 700s and they have NO disadvantage whatsoever) Many gunsmiths will tell you that you Must true an action to achieve a certain degree of accuracy...BS. however...some 700's need a fair amount of work.
2) Trigger job- most 700's can simply have their adjustment screws turned and you can end up with a very nice trigger. A 40 trigger kit can be had for around $20 and you change a few parts over to your 700 trigger to get a nice triger.
If you use a factory stock or an inexpensive aftermarket stock, you "MAY" need to skim bed. I had a few PSS stocks where the bedding block was off so much, that you coud see the bbl way off to one side and on another the barrel was cocked so at the end of the bbl channel by the forend, the bbl was touching the stock and there was a big gap on the other side!
That's it. All of these rifle must shoot 4 consecutive 5 shot groups at 100 yards and the same at 200 yards and that's how I determine the rifle's acuracy. I don't do 1- 3 shot group at 100 yards and say it's a 1/4 moa rifle.
Total cost including new rifle purchase around $1500
sell takeoff bbl for $100 or so and you have a pretty sweet rifle for $1400
I have owned a number of SS scopes and would NEVER own another again. They are so hit or miss that it just isn't worth it. And try and get one repaired ...laugh
If you can afford a used quality scope, you are much better off.
If that's too expensive.. I have removed factory bbls, cut and rechambered with a match reamer, recrowned and lapped the bbls for around $200 and that has sometimes reduced groups significantly along with a trigger job.
Best of Luck
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
Most LTRs that I've seen are pretty good out of the box, you might see 1/2MOA with handloads after you skim bed it and either work the trigger down or put a new one on.
With a $1K cap on a scope you could also look into a USO ST-10. I just spent a few sleepless nights between fixed 10x scopes. Finally settled in on the USO. Hit John III up if you are still in, he will hook you up.
Most LTRs that I've seen are pretty good out of the box, you might see 1/2MOA with handloads after you skim bed it and either work the trigger down or put a new one on.
With a $1K cap on a scope you could also look into a USO ST-10. I just spent a few sleepless nights between fixed 10x scopes. Finally settled in on the USO. Hit John III up if you are still in, he will hook you up.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
Wow, thanks for all the information guys. Trying to absorb it all. More questions to follow. I should note, I didnt really mean build an LTR, just an LTR like weapon. A tactile rifle, is what I should say. Thanks again.
Wow, thanks for all the information guys. Trying to absorb it all. More questions to follow. I should note, I didnt really mean build an LTR, just an LTR like weapon. A tactile rifle, is what I should say. Thanks again.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
At RO last year there was a Rem LTR that shot real well out of the box. It needed trigger work and glass, otherwise it was just about what you want.
You can do the trigger and skim bed the rifle and get a high quality optic.
I would spend the money on threading the barrel and get a silencer. It has made my shooting more enjoyable by a mile. Plus when you get into hand loading, as you will certainly do if you are looking for 1/2moa at 800, you can make up some subsonics. They are just about more fun to shoot than anything.
At RO last year there was a Rem LTR that shot real well out of the box. It needed trigger work and glass, otherwise it was just about what you want.
You can do the trigger and skim bed the rifle and get a high quality optic.
I would spend the money on threading the barrel and get a silencer. It has made my shooting more enjoyable by a mile. Plus when you get into hand loading, as you will certainly do if you are looking for 1/2moa at 800, you can make up some subsonics. They are just about more fun to shoot than anything.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
I picked up an SPS Tactical (.223 though) for around $550. Bedded it in a McMillan stock and worked the trigger down. It shoots about MOA with FGMM 69gr, but damn near half that with a good handload. Granted though, this was at 100yds, and not long range. Total cost after selling off the Hogue stock and adding the McMillan is right at $1050.
If you really want consistant accuracy at longer ranges though you will probably have to have an aftermarket barrel screwed on after you have had your action and bolt trued by a 'smith.
I picked up an SPS Tactical (.223 though) for around $550. Bedded it in a McMillan stock and worked the trigger down. It shoots about MOA with FGMM 69gr, but damn near half that with a good handload. Granted though, this was at 100yds, and not long range. Total cost after selling off the Hogue stock and adding the McMillan is right at $1050.
If you really want consistant accuracy at longer ranges though you will probably have to have an aftermarket barrel screwed on after you have had your action and bolt trued by a 'smith.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BillPrudden</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello -
I'd buy four LTRs from the cheapest dealer you can find, perhaps even lightly used ones, and shoot them right out of the box - my wager would be that all four will be 0.5 moa for you... LTRs have a hell of a reputation for factory precision and, since 800 yards is your top-end, the short barrel won't hamstring you.
If you ain't gotta do nothin' to the rifles but unpack them, it would leave more money for glass (and ammo)!
Bill </div></div>
Bingo.
My LTR is .5 MOA out of the box.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BillPrudden</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello -
I'd buy four LTRs from the cheapest dealer you can find, perhaps even lightly used ones, and shoot them right out of the box - my wager would be that all four will be 0.5 moa for you... LTRs have a hell of a reputation for factory precision and, since 800 yards is your top-end, the short barrel won't hamstring you.
If you ain't gotta do nothin' to the rifles but unpack them, it would leave more money for glass (and ammo)!
Bill </div></div>
Bingo.
My LTR is .5 MOA out of the box.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My LTR is .5 MOA out of the box.</div></div>Not quite.
When all best and worst groups average 1/2 MOA, or you shoot five consecutive five shot groups around 4" at 800 yards, then I'll concede you may have a 1/2 MOA rifle.
Problem is, in order to to do that, the best the rifle can do must be 1/4 MOA and the best its ammo can do must also be 1/4 MOA. If this is the case, whether out of the box or not, the result on target will be groupings right around 1/2 MOA. Assuming, of course, that you can hold that well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My LTR is .5 MOA out of the box.</div></div>Not quite.
When all best and worst groups average 1/2 MOA, or you shoot five consecutive five shot groups around 4" at 800 yards, then I'll concede you may have a 1/2 MOA rifle.
Problem is, in order to to do that, the best the rifle can do must be 1/4 MOA and the best its ammo can do must also be 1/4 MOA. If this is the case, whether out of the box or not, the result on target will be groupings right around 1/2 MOA. Assuming, of course, that you can hold that well.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
But I've got that one group I shot that one day out of my LTR that's cut out and around here somewhere.......just ignore the shot I pulled, that was a "called" flyer.
But I've got that one group I shot that one day out of my LTR that's cut out and around here somewhere.......just ignore the shot I pulled, that was a "called" flyer.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
I'm not picking on him, just making the point that one shouldn't get caught up in all the MOA hype and advertising.
In the practical rifle game, and unless you also shoot benchrest with the rifle, under 1 MOA you just end up arguing semantics and numbers theory.
Build a good gun, one that shoots better than the driver, and get to know it.
That's why I still shoot .308: when not having the latest 6.5 chambering means consistently losing first place in all the matches, then I guess I'll need one.
I'm not picking on him, just making the point that one shouldn't get caught up in all the MOA hype and advertising.
In the practical rifle game, and unless you also shoot benchrest with the rifle, under 1 MOA you just end up arguing semantics and numbers theory.
Build a good gun, one that shoots better than the driver, and get to know it.
That's why I still shoot .308: when not having the latest 6.5 chambering means consistently losing first place in all the matches, then I guess I'll need one.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
I have an LTR that was sent to Jered at Patriot/APA.
He used the stock barreled action but pillar/skim bedded it in a Manners T4. Fluted the bolt beautifully, installed a BO DBM, Rifle Basix trigger and did a few other things.
It is an honest, 5 shot 1/2" shooter at 100 yards. I define this by more 5 shot groups are under 1/2" than over. It shoots amazingly for a factory tube.
I have an LTR that was sent to Jered at Patriot/APA.
He used the stock barreled action but pillar/skim bedded it in a Manners T4. Fluted the bolt beautifully, installed a BO DBM, Rifle Basix trigger and did a few other things.
It is an honest, 5 shot 1/2" shooter at 100 yards. I define this by more 5 shot groups are under 1/2" than over. It shoots amazingly for a factory tube.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
EDIT: just saw the "800 yard .5 MOA".... yeah, I'm not claiming anything at that range....
EDIT: just saw the "800 yard .5 MOA".... yeah, I'm not claiming anything at that range....
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
eleaf said:
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
best score at 300 was 50X and 600 so i would not worry to much about moa havent seen to many 1/2 moa guns, or mabey 1/2 moa shooters that do it all the time, read about a lot, go to a match and look the scores 1/2 moa will win every time if drove right, so dont worry about moa i have seen very few clean targets, i have about 2300 in a bat 338 lapua repeter wo optics
best score at 300 was 50X and 600 so i would not worry to much about moa havent seen to many 1/2 moa guns, or mabey 1/2 moa shooters that do it all the time, read about a lot, go to a match and look the scores 1/2 moa will win every time if drove right, so dont worry about moa i have seen very few clean targets, i have about 2300 in a bat 338 lapua repeter wo optics
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: criver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: criver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
eleaf said:
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: criver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: criver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
eleaf said:
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
I shoot 1/4moa at 800yds all the time. Piece of cake
I shoot 1/4moa at 800yds all the time. Piece of cake
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyle1974</div><div class="ubbcode-body">with 168 grain Amax, my LTR will shoot .5 when everything goes right.
sobrbiker. This group was shot with my LTR with factory loaded hornady TAP.
What's wrong with this group?
is this rifle not accurate, or is it the ammo, or was it me? I didn't call the "flier". It just seems that "shit happens" but with about 50% of my groups looking similiar to this, I have to think the weak link is my own shooting skills. I don't feel like I'm being misleading when I say my gun shoots well under MOA...
</div></div>
Nothing wrong with that group. If it'll put ten rounds under MOA or five 5 rd groups on the same target that are under MOA I'd say it shoots sub-moa. Or hit 10 .50" dots on the same same sheet of paper with one shot each.
I'm just a realist when it come to accuracy claims.
The combo of my rifles, loads and me shooting hangs right around moa. I'm pretty sure I have 1/2moa rifles, but I rarely shoot 1/2 moa consistently enough to call it average.
I just think that true 1/2 moa factory rifles are very few and far between, if one's standards are consistent accuracy. I think there are millions of "holy crap, that's a great group" images out there, and its a shame that the two get mixed up.
LTR's are usually very good factory rifles. If you make a LTR into a true 1/2moa rifle, you won't have an LTR anymore.......
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kyle1974</div><div class="ubbcode-body">with 168 grain Amax, my LTR will shoot .5 when everything goes right.
sobrbiker. This group was shot with my LTR with factory loaded hornady TAP.
What's wrong with this group?
is this rifle not accurate, or is it the ammo, or was it me? I didn't call the "flier". It just seems that "shit happens" but with about 50% of my groups looking similiar to this, I have to think the weak link is my own shooting skills. I don't feel like I'm being misleading when I say my gun shoots well under MOA...
</div></div>
Nothing wrong with that group. If it'll put ten rounds under MOA or five 5 rd groups on the same target that are under MOA I'd say it shoots sub-moa. Or hit 10 .50" dots on the same same sheet of paper with one shot each.
I'm just a realist when it come to accuracy claims.
The combo of my rifles, loads and me shooting hangs right around moa. I'm pretty sure I have 1/2moa rifles, but I rarely shoot 1/2 moa consistently enough to call it average.
I just think that true 1/2 moa factory rifles are very few and far between, if one's standards are consistent accuracy. I think there are millions of "holy crap, that's a great group" images out there, and its a shame that the two get mixed up.
LTR's are usually very good factory rifles. If you make a LTR into a true 1/2moa rifle, you won't have an LTR anymore.......
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
It's a relatively new rifle... only shot 3 & 1/2 boxes of amax out of it so far.
the winchester silvertip in 168 grain shot about 1.25", hornady BTSP shot over an inch, (I've been looking for a hunting bullet during deer season).
Right now, I'm just stock piling brass that I will start reloading.
what I dont understand is what causes a flier, it literally happens on half my groups... is it an issue of the bolt not locking up the same? differences in brass? Me? I wish I knew...
EDIT: I deleted my photos per the forum rules....
It's a relatively new rifle... only shot 3 & 1/2 boxes of amax out of it so far.
the winchester silvertip in 168 grain shot about 1.25", hornady BTSP shot over an inch, (I've been looking for a hunting bullet during deer season).
Right now, I'm just stock piling brass that I will start reloading.
what I dont understand is what causes a flier, it literally happens on half my groups... is it an issue of the bolt not locking up the same? differences in brass? Me? I wish I knew...
EDIT: I deleted my photos per the forum rules....
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
Try shooting 1 shot in 3 groups in a round robin method. Keep advancing through the groups until you have 3 5 shot groups. Maybe that pulled shot is you psyching yourself out.
Try shooting 1 shot in 3 groups in a round robin method. Keep advancing through the groups until you have 3 5 shot groups. Maybe that pulled shot is you psyching yourself out.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
I gotta tell ya... I am Not saying that a stock LTR, PSS or other rifle under a Grand can't shoot consistent 1/2 moa, but if this is such a common thing...why the hell do so many shooters spend many THOUSANDS on customs? Many factory rifles will shoot well with handloads. I have probably owned a solid 50-60 700 based heavy barreled rifles in my time and have NEVER had one that will shoot FACTORY ammo into a solid/consistent 1/2 moa out to 300 yards. My testing is minimum of 4 consecutive 5 shot groups at 100 yards and then 200 yards. No cleaning between groups. If it can't hold that..it ain't a CONSISTENT 1/2 moa rifle. Now handloads are different. I had a 223 PSS with 1/12" that shot 52 Sierras into a ragged hole at 100 yards and sub 1/2 moa at 200 and around 1" at 300 yards (under calm conditions) In fact..whoever I sold that to here, I'd like to buy it back!
P.S. Maybe if shooters posted 1 target with the 4 or 5 groups on the same paper with at least 5 shots per group...consistent moa would be more believeable.
I gotta tell ya... I am Not saying that a stock LTR, PSS or other rifle under a Grand can't shoot consistent 1/2 moa, but if this is such a common thing...why the hell do so many shooters spend many THOUSANDS on customs? Many factory rifles will shoot well with handloads. I have probably owned a solid 50-60 700 based heavy barreled rifles in my time and have NEVER had one that will shoot FACTORY ammo into a solid/consistent 1/2 moa out to 300 yards. My testing is minimum of 4 consecutive 5 shot groups at 100 yards and then 200 yards. No cleaning between groups. If it can't hold that..it ain't a CONSISTENT 1/2 moa rifle. Now handloads are different. I had a 223 PSS with 1/12" that shot 52 Sierras into a ragged hole at 100 yards and sub 1/2 moa at 200 and around 1" at 300 yards (under calm conditions) In fact..whoever I sold that to here, I'd like to buy it back!
P.S. Maybe if shooters posted 1 target with the 4 or 5 groups on the same paper with at least 5 shots per group...consistent moa would be more believeable.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
An accurate rifle is one that puts a bullet hole at the position of the sights everytime. The more accurate the rifle, the more influence your hold will have on the bullet impact on target. And that's what we strive for. If the holes on the paper match where the sights were when we pulled the trigger, that tells us what we need to know about the rifle and ammo.
An accurate rifle is one that puts a bullet hole at the position of the sights everytime. The more accurate the rifle, the more influence your hold will have on the bullet impact on target. And that's what we strive for. If the holes on the paper match where the sights were when we pulled the trigger, that tells us what we need to know about the rifle and ammo.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chrisj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
P.S. Maybe if shooters posted 1 target with the 4 or 5 groups on the same paper with at least 5 shots per group...consistent moa would be more believeable. </div></div>
Lowlight has already made his opinion on posting groups and its pretty clear:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=779312#Post779312
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chrisj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
P.S. Maybe if shooters posted 1 target with the 4 or 5 groups on the same paper with at least 5 shots per group...consistent moa would be more believeable. </div></div>
Lowlight has already made his opinion on posting groups and its pretty clear:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=779312#Post779312
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
I have a rem 700 ltr with a 20" tube that shoots half a min with handloaded 175 sierras right out of the box, but ymmv, maybe I got a magical one
I have a rem 700 ltr with a 20" tube that shoots half a min with handloaded 175 sierras right out of the box, but ymmv, maybe I got a magical one
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chrisj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
P.S. Maybe if shooters posted 1 target with the 4 or 5 groups on the same paper with at least 5 shots per group...consistent moa would be more believeable. </div></div>
Lowlight has already made his opinion on posting groups and its pretty clear:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=779312#Post779312 </div></div>
Thanks Sobr. I wasn't far off then from lowlight. However...I see groups posted here that certainly don't adhere to that standard.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chrisj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
P.S. Maybe if shooters posted 1 target with the 4 or 5 groups on the same paper with at least 5 shots per group...consistent moa would be more believeable. </div></div>
Lowlight has already made his opinion on posting groups and its pretty clear:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=779312#Post779312 </div></div>
Thanks Sobr. I wasn't far off then from lowlight. However...I see groups posted here that certainly don't adhere to that standard.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jerseymike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a rem 700 ltr with a 20" tube that shoots half a min with handloaded 175 sierras right out of the box, but ymmv, maybe I got a magical one </div></div>
Not impossible, but more of the exception rather than the standard.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jerseymike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a rem 700 ltr with a 20" tube that shoots half a min with handloaded 175 sierras right out of the box, but ymmv, maybe I got a magical one </div></div>
Not impossible, but more of the exception rather than the standard.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
Why the hell do so many shooters spend many THOUSANDS on customs you ask? Its because cash buys skills man, come on..
Why the hell do so many shooters spend many THOUSANDS on customs you ask? Its because cash buys skills man, come on..
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chrisj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am Not saying that a stock LTR, PSS or other rifle under a Grand can't shoot consistent 1/2 moa, but if this is such a common thing...why the hell do so many shooters spend many THOUSANDS on customs? </div></div>
For competitive shooters it's about squeezing that last .001" of performance in order to win competitions. For others it's about telling everyone else that their equipment is not good enough. For yet others, it's about having what they perceive is the best gear.
That said, in the end, most shooters here do not shoot competitively (in so far as a multi-thousand dollar gun would be <span style="font-style: italic">the</span> difference). I can bet that any of the top flight shooters here could shoot my rig, an LTR with HS Thumbhole stock and Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x50 (though it is soon to be a NF NXS) better than I can shoot theirs despite the cost or quality of the gear.
If a gun can't kill people, and I think that most of us would subscribe to the idea that people kill, not guns, it can't win a competition either. It's all about the guy squeezing the trigger whether he is shooting an intricate custom rig, or a basic Remy 700 out of the box with modest glass.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chrisj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am Not saying that a stock LTR, PSS or other rifle under a Grand can't shoot consistent 1/2 moa, but if this is such a common thing...why the hell do so many shooters spend many THOUSANDS on customs? </div></div>
For competitive shooters it's about squeezing that last .001" of performance in order to win competitions. For others it's about telling everyone else that their equipment is not good enough. For yet others, it's about having what they perceive is the best gear.
That said, in the end, most shooters here do not shoot competitively (in so far as a multi-thousand dollar gun would be <span style="font-style: italic">the</span> difference). I can bet that any of the top flight shooters here could shoot my rig, an LTR with HS Thumbhole stock and Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x50 (though it is soon to be a NF NXS) better than I can shoot theirs despite the cost or quality of the gear.
If a gun can't kill people, and I think that most of us would subscribe to the idea that people kill, not guns, it can't win a competition either. It's all about the guy squeezing the trigger whether he is shooting an intricate custom rig, or a basic Remy 700 out of the box with modest glass.
Re: Minimum costs to assemble a 1/2 MOA LTR
I guess you guys didn't understand my sarcasm. I know why shooters spend the big bucks...consistency from day 1 and the customs and AI's, Sakos etc are not luck of the draw like a 700, Savage etc..
I guess you guys didn't understand my sarcasm. I know why shooters spend the big bucks...consistency from day 1 and the customs and AI's, Sakos etc are not luck of the draw like a 700, Savage etc..
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