Getting ready to darken up FDE H-series. I assume it will work. Anyone had any luck mixing H-series? I would call, but NIC is closed today.
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Gunsmithing Mixing Cerakote H-series Colors?
- Thread starter LowCountryCamo
- Start date
Re: Mixing Cerakote H-series Colors?
Steve,
You can mix Cerakote H-Series colors. To darken up FDE, Patriot Brown works the best as they are in the same tone range.
Good luck on your weekend project.
-Ernie
Steve,
You can mix Cerakote H-Series colors. To darken up FDE, Patriot Brown works the best as they are in the same tone range.
Good luck on your weekend project.
-Ernie
Re: Mixing Cerakote H-series Colors?
Any of the tan to brown colors will also darken the hotter you cook them. Try 300 for an hour and see the difference from 250 for 2 hours. I would be reluctant to mix them as each color is made from differernt ceramic materials rather than pigment like paint. You could get variations I'm sure very fine and most likely unnoticable as long as it is shook well. The different components do different things at different temperatures and it may be very hard to duplicate this shade later if you ever wanted to match it. I would call NIC and talk to at least Matt on your intentions.
<span style="color: #000099">The quick cure time for steel is now 300 for 45 minutes.</span>
Any of the tan to brown colors will also darken the hotter you cook them. Try 300 for an hour and see the difference from 250 for 2 hours. I would be reluctant to mix them as each color is made from differernt ceramic materials rather than pigment like paint. You could get variations I'm sure very fine and most likely unnoticable as long as it is shook well. The different components do different things at different temperatures and it may be very hard to duplicate this shade later if you ever wanted to match it. I would call NIC and talk to at least Matt on your intentions.
<span style="color: #000099">The quick cure time for steel is now 300 for 45 minutes.</span>
Re: Mixing Cerakote H-series Colors?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any of the tan to brown colors will also darken the hotter you cook them. Try 300 for an hour and see the difference from 250 for 2 hours. I would be reluctant to mix them as each color is made from differernt ceramic materials rather than pigment like paint. You could get variations I'm sure very fine and most likely unnoticable as long as it is shook well. The different components do different things at different temperatures and it may be very hard to duplicate this shade later if you ever wanted to match it. I would call NIC and talk to at least Matt on your intentions. </div></div>
This information isn’t correct.
First, 300 degrees for one hour is one of the standard recommended curing temps and procedures and if all is done properly and cured in the proper curing ovens you shouldn’t see any difference in color. Discoloration will occur in H-Series above 350 to 400 degrees, depending on color, or if placed too close to an exposed oven heat element (which proper curing ovens dont have)
Second, you should never try to darken colors through over baking, or baking beyond the recommended temps. Bad idea.
<span style="font-style: italic">(I helped write and edit NIC's Cerakote Applicator Traning Manual and can forward to you (anyone) if you need it.)</span>
Third, the H-Series is all made from the same ceramic compounds and base elements (same MSDS for all H-Series); and colors are mixed by applicators all the time. The key is knowing which colors to mix to get the desired results. Once you get a mix you like just note the ratios you mixed to get there, so that you can repeat it.
Feel free to contact Brandon, Matt or Brian @ NIC who will verify what I am saying is correct.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any of the tan to brown colors will also darken the hotter you cook them. Try 300 for an hour and see the difference from 250 for 2 hours. I would be reluctant to mix them as each color is made from differernt ceramic materials rather than pigment like paint. You could get variations I'm sure very fine and most likely unnoticable as long as it is shook well. The different components do different things at different temperatures and it may be very hard to duplicate this shade later if you ever wanted to match it. I would call NIC and talk to at least Matt on your intentions. </div></div>
This information isn’t correct.
First, 300 degrees for one hour is one of the standard recommended curing temps and procedures and if all is done properly and cured in the proper curing ovens you shouldn’t see any difference in color. Discoloration will occur in H-Series above 350 to 400 degrees, depending on color, or if placed too close to an exposed oven heat element (which proper curing ovens dont have)
Second, you should never try to darken colors through over baking, or baking beyond the recommended temps. Bad idea.
<span style="font-style: italic">(I helped write and edit NIC's Cerakote Applicator Traning Manual and can forward to you (anyone) if you need it.)</span>
Third, the H-Series is all made from the same ceramic compounds and base elements (same MSDS for all H-Series); and colors are mixed by applicators all the time. The key is knowing which colors to mix to get the desired results. Once you get a mix you like just note the ratios you mixed to get there, so that you can repeat it.
Feel free to contact Brandon, Matt or Brian @ NIC who will verify what I am saying is correct.
Re: Mixing Cerakote H-series Colors?
Ernie, Thanks for taking the time to get out the <span style="font-weight: bold">correct</span> information. A lot of what I have learned over the past year came from your posts. Your Tomahawk CQTC looks so nice I had to by that <span style="font-style: italic">AR Rifleman</span> issue.
Hired Gun might be right <span style="font-style: italic">if</span> we were making pottery.
Ernie, Thanks for taking the time to get out the <span style="font-weight: bold">correct</span> information. A lot of what I have learned over the past year came from your posts. Your Tomahawk CQTC looks so nice I had to by that <span style="font-style: italic">AR Rifleman</span> issue.
Hired Gun might be right <span style="font-style: italic">if</span> we were making pottery.
Re: Mixing Cerakote H-series Colors?
Steve,
Why are you wanting to darken up a color? I would assume it's to match something else. Cerakote comes in so many shades I am always able to buy whatever I need to without resorting to experimenting. I gave you an accurate respectful response. If you don't agree then don't follow it. The pottery crack is out of line.
Ernie,
With respect to your experience and talent with Cerakote I gave the exact same cure schedule you did. So when you say it is correct and when I say it I am wrong? No where did I suggest going outside of recommended cure schedules.
What I stated was fact observed by me, other certified applicators and confirmed by being duplicated in house at NIC. Some of the colors will change shade depending on the currently approved cure schedules. Some darken, some lighten, some change color entirely when using the different published cure schedules. Some are stable to over 400 degrees. NIC is in the process of amending the cure schedules for certain colors.
I need consistent results. When I use the color samples people expect that to be what they get. When they don't it cost me time and money.
“Third, the H-Series is all made from the same ceramic compounds and base elements (same MSDS for all H-Series)”
If this is true please explain the difference in weight of the different colors. Have you ever wondered why not mix catalyst ratio by weight? I did, while I was there, in training and when we were in the lab where the base components are ground up and mixed it was shown to me that each color is made from totally different base elements and due to the weight differences the ratio's would not be consistent. 4 ounces of gunmetal gray are a lot less volume than 4 ounces of black. They use different amounts of each chemical to compensate to make the ratio come out by volume. Mixing them yourself undoes some of NIC's chemical engineers careful work.
As a certified applicator I am bound to stick to published and recommended NIC procedures in order to maintain my factory support. If I were to experiment it is understood I am on my own.
Steve,
Why are you wanting to darken up a color? I would assume it's to match something else. Cerakote comes in so many shades I am always able to buy whatever I need to without resorting to experimenting. I gave you an accurate respectful response. If you don't agree then don't follow it. The pottery crack is out of line.
Ernie,
With respect to your experience and talent with Cerakote I gave the exact same cure schedule you did. So when you say it is correct and when I say it I am wrong? No where did I suggest going outside of recommended cure schedules.
What I stated was fact observed by me, other certified applicators and confirmed by being duplicated in house at NIC. Some of the colors will change shade depending on the currently approved cure schedules. Some darken, some lighten, some change color entirely when using the different published cure schedules. Some are stable to over 400 degrees. NIC is in the process of amending the cure schedules for certain colors.
I need consistent results. When I use the color samples people expect that to be what they get. When they don't it cost me time and money.
“Third, the H-Series is all made from the same ceramic compounds and base elements (same MSDS for all H-Series)”
If this is true please explain the difference in weight of the different colors. Have you ever wondered why not mix catalyst ratio by weight? I did, while I was there, in training and when we were in the lab where the base components are ground up and mixed it was shown to me that each color is made from totally different base elements and due to the weight differences the ratio's would not be consistent. 4 ounces of gunmetal gray are a lot less volume than 4 ounces of black. They use different amounts of each chemical to compensate to make the ratio come out by volume. Mixing them yourself undoes some of NIC's chemical engineers careful work.
As a certified applicator I am bound to stick to published and recommended NIC procedures in order to maintain my factory support. If I were to experiment it is understood I am on my own.
Re: Mixing Cerakote H-series Colors?
Hired Gun,
I was out of line. I apologize.
Last week I attempted a desert camo on a rem 710 stock. I used Flat Dark Earth and Federal Brown. While it looks good, the Fed Brown seems too red in tone next to FDE. I thought a "monotone" desert cam would look better.
3 color Example:
FDE
FDE + Graphite Black 10/1
FDE + Graphite Black 10/3
Maybe I am over thinking it, but I was an art major in college. Thanks for the help.
Hired Gun,
I was out of line. I apologize.
Last week I attempted a desert camo on a rem 710 stock. I used Flat Dark Earth and Federal Brown. While it looks good, the Fed Brown seems too red in tone next to FDE. I thought a "monotone" desert cam would look better.
3 color Example:
FDE
FDE + Graphite Black 10/1
FDE + Graphite Black 10/3
Maybe I am over thinking it, but I was an art major in college. Thanks for the help.
Re: Mixing Cerakote H-series Colors?
No problem.
Before you redo it have you shown it to your customer? Chances are they will love it as is. I still second guess every one of these and want to do the very best I can.
I like the camos with subtle changes too.
I just got out my color samples and Fed Brown 212 is pretty harsh against FDE 265. Nothing wrong with it. It just makes for a very distinct pattern.
Have you considered changing the Fed Brown 212 for a Patriot Brown 226 and a 3rd color of Coyote Tan 235?
This is Coyote Tan-235/Patriot Brown-226/FDE-265
Just a thought and it may not be your taste as we are all individuals.
If you mix in the black please post some pictures and test it for durability on a piece of steel.
No problem.
Before you redo it have you shown it to your customer? Chances are they will love it as is. I still second guess every one of these and want to do the very best I can.
I like the camos with subtle changes too.
I just got out my color samples and Fed Brown 212 is pretty harsh against FDE 265. Nothing wrong with it. It just makes for a very distinct pattern.
Have you considered changing the Fed Brown 212 for a Patriot Brown 226 and a 3rd color of Coyote Tan 235?
This is Coyote Tan-235/Patriot Brown-226/FDE-265
Just a thought and it may not be your taste as we are all individuals.
If you mix in the black please post some pictures and test it for durability on a piece of steel.
Re: Mixing Cerakote H-series Colors?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steve,
Why are you wanting to darken up a color? I would assume it's to match something else. Cerakote comes in so many shades I am always able to buy whatever I need to without resorting to experimenting. I gave you an accurate respectful response. If you don't agree then don't follow it. The pottery crack is out of line.
Ernie,
With respect to your experience and talent with Cerakote I gave the exact same cure schedule you did. So when you say it is correct and when I say it I am wrong? No where did I suggest going outside of recommended cure schedules.
What I stated was fact observed by me, other certified applicators and confirmed by being duplicated in house at NIC. Some of the colors will change shade depending on the currently approved cure schedules. Some darken, some lighten, some change color entirely when using the different published cure schedules. Some are stable to over 400 degrees. NIC is in the process of amending the cure schedules for certain colors.
I need consistent results. When I use the color samples people expect that to be what they get. When they don't it cost me time and money.
“Third, the H-Series is all made from the same ceramic compounds and base elements (same MSDS for all H-Series)”
If this is true please explain the difference in weight of the different colors. Have you ever wondered why not mix catalyst ratio by weight? I did, while I was there, in training and when we were in the lab where the base components are ground up and mixed it was shown to me that each color is made from totally different base elements and due to the weight differences the ratio's would not be consistent. 4 ounces of gunmetal gray are a lot less volume than 4 ounces of black. They use different amounts of each chemical to compensate to make the ratio come out by volume. Mixing them yourself undoes some of NIC's chemical engineers careful work.
As a certified applicator I am bound to stick to published and recommended NIC procedures in order to maintain my factory support. If I were to experiment it is understood I am on my own. </div></div>
Hired Gun,
There are differneces in weight between metalic and non-metalic colors, due to the elements needed for the metalic colors, but all are made from the same base compounds.
It has not been my experience that there will be perceptible color shift if baked within the guidlines in a proper curing oven, but there is clearly many variables that could account for your experinece being different than mine.
I called Brian, NIC's Preident over the weekend to double check that the facts in my post were correct and he verified that they are.
You are correct in that NIC does not as a general rule recommend applictors mix colors, but thir position is you can if you are careful and know what your doing. I also agree with you that given time to do so, it never hurts to call NIC and ask thier advice on a particular mix you were looking to do. Sometimes they may even have a color close to that which isnt on the list.
-Ernie
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steve,
Why are you wanting to darken up a color? I would assume it's to match something else. Cerakote comes in so many shades I am always able to buy whatever I need to without resorting to experimenting. I gave you an accurate respectful response. If you don't agree then don't follow it. The pottery crack is out of line.
Ernie,
With respect to your experience and talent with Cerakote I gave the exact same cure schedule you did. So when you say it is correct and when I say it I am wrong? No where did I suggest going outside of recommended cure schedules.
What I stated was fact observed by me, other certified applicators and confirmed by being duplicated in house at NIC. Some of the colors will change shade depending on the currently approved cure schedules. Some darken, some lighten, some change color entirely when using the different published cure schedules. Some are stable to over 400 degrees. NIC is in the process of amending the cure schedules for certain colors.
I need consistent results. When I use the color samples people expect that to be what they get. When they don't it cost me time and money.
“Third, the H-Series is all made from the same ceramic compounds and base elements (same MSDS for all H-Series)”
If this is true please explain the difference in weight of the different colors. Have you ever wondered why not mix catalyst ratio by weight? I did, while I was there, in training and when we were in the lab where the base components are ground up and mixed it was shown to me that each color is made from totally different base elements and due to the weight differences the ratio's would not be consistent. 4 ounces of gunmetal gray are a lot less volume than 4 ounces of black. They use different amounts of each chemical to compensate to make the ratio come out by volume. Mixing them yourself undoes some of NIC's chemical engineers careful work.
As a certified applicator I am bound to stick to published and recommended NIC procedures in order to maintain my factory support. If I were to experiment it is understood I am on my own. </div></div>
Hired Gun,
There are differneces in weight between metalic and non-metalic colors, due to the elements needed for the metalic colors, but all are made from the same base compounds.
It has not been my experience that there will be perceptible color shift if baked within the guidlines in a proper curing oven, but there is clearly many variables that could account for your experinece being different than mine.
I called Brian, NIC's Preident over the weekend to double check that the facts in my post were correct and he verified that they are.
You are correct in that NIC does not as a general rule recommend applictors mix colors, but thir position is you can if you are careful and know what your doing. I also agree with you that given time to do so, it never hurts to call NIC and ask thier advice on a particular mix you were looking to do. Sometimes they may even have a color close to that which isnt on the list.
-Ernie
