Mk 12 mod1 ish question

AJB

AJB

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May 30, 2007
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#1
I'm looking to get an SPR upper for my M6A2. Is the exact build of the MK12 really that great, or will the other companies produce something just as good? I don't care that it is an exact replica of the mil issue stuff. I'm just looking for something that is accurate (preferably sub moa) and can get adequate groups for this kind of weapon system out to 800yds with 77gr. I'm kind of in a toss up between the BCM Mod1 and a larue stealth. Both are the same price.

If anyone who owns or have experience with either could please give there opinions and why it would be greatly appreciated.
 
#2
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ajb008</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm looking to get an SPR upper for my M6A2. Is the exact build of the MK12 really that great, or will the other companies produce something just as good? I don't care that it is an exact replica of the mil issue stuff. I'm just looking for something that is accurate (preferably sub moa) and can get adequate groups for this kind of weapon system out to 800yds with 77gr. I'm kind of in a toss up between the BCM Mod1 and a larue stealth. Both are the same price.

If anyone who owns or have experience with either could please give there opinions and why it would be greatly appreciated.</div></div>

I have read good reviews of BCM's and will pick one up in 2 weeks or so. I'm 200$ away from getting it. While i love Larue there are just not that many reviews out there IMO. From what i've read noone knows if they're product are mil spec or not or where they get them. I would go with BCM. And yes BCM will produce something just as good, the mk12 mod 1 isn't really going to do anything the same build with a DD or Larue rail wont due. Although there are differences in barrel twist BCM uses 1:8 original MK12 Mod 1 uses a douglas 18 SPR 1:7. But from what i've read with 1:8 your good from 60-80gr bullets just no going past 80, twist wont stabilize them. I'm looking at shooting 69gr Privi match or 75gr privi match out of mine when i get it.
 
#3
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

Not sure if the SPR variants were ever intended to be an 800 yards weapons system.

If you are looking for something SPR-ish, any 18" free floated barrel A4 upper will get you there.

The Mk12 actually has two main variations, MK12MOD0 and MK12MOD1. MOD0 utilizing PRI and ARMS components and the MOD1 built with KAC stuff. Both used the OPS Inc muzzle brake, collar and suppressor. Most were build with Douglas blanks, chambered at CLE. Original optic was the VARI-X III 3.5-10x40 LR mounted in ARMS #22 Medium rings on the #38PEQ rail for the MOD0 and the ARMS #35 with Medium rings for the MOD1. The TS-30 (MK4 MR/T 3-9x36) was designed specifically for the MOD1.

Are the exact builds all that great? It really depends on you. Do you want a SPR or do you want SPR-ish? Not knocking LaRue or BCM as they both produce quality gear, but neither provided components for the original MK12 variants.
 
#4
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 223Rem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure if the SPR variants were ever intended to be an 800 yards weapons system.

If you are looking for something SPR-ish, any 18" free floated barrel A4 upper will get you there.

The Mk12 actually has two main variations, MK12MOD0 and MK12MOD1. MOD0 utilizing PRI and ARMS components and the MOD1 built with KAC stuff. Both used the OPS Inc muzzle brake, collar and suppressor. Most were build with Douglas blanks, chambered at CLE. Original optic was the VARI-X III 3.5-10x40 LR mounted in ARMS #22 Medium rings on the #38PEQ rail for the MOD0 and the ARMS #35 with Medium rings for the MOD1. The TS-30 (MK4 MR/T 3-9x36) was designed specifically for the MOD1.

Are the exact builds all that great? It really depends on you. Do you want a SPR or do you want SPR-ish? Not knocking LaRue or BCM as they both produce quality gear, but neither provided components for the original MK12 variants.</div></div>

Forgot to mention the 800m part, and i agree not really the ideal platform for shooting at 800m but if his heart desires it can be done
wink.gif
.
BCM does make extremely close to spec MK12 Mod 0 and 1 uppers. Only difference being they're using 1:8 twist. Then they have further options as the mk12 with URX rails, DD, Larue, Vltor, etc. It's really an extension to the MK12 line in a sense or a modern version if you will. But they still offer the original build just with a 1:8 twist, which unless your shooting those extremely long tracers.. or 80gr+ bullets it's fine.
 
#5
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

If you are looking for a SPR upper, may I suggest Highcalibersales, one of the owners is a member here on the Hide KJO. I suppose you could say they produce one of the best if not thee best MK12 MOD1 and Mk12 MOD0 uppers out there. BCM and Larue make good products and you should be satisfied with either one. As for the 800 yards adequate groups may be obtainable in ideal conditions.
 
#6
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

Another one here who speaks very highly of High Caliber Sales. My Mod 1 upper is one of the nicest assemblies that I've ever seen. Kevin's attention to detail is top notch. I was really torn between HCS and BCM, as I already own BCM, but his and his products reputations sold me on him.

Ultimately, you'll have to decide whether you want a Mk 12, or just and SPR'ish type rifle. The Mk 12 is not the pinnacle of tactical accuracy in the AR platform, it's just a good example of how to get there. Let's be honest, there are better rail systems out there than KAC. Those of us who have built Mk 12 clones have done it because we wanted that style.

I too think that you're "aiming" too high for consistent accuracy with a Mk 12; you're just pushing that bullet too hard in my opinion. There are better calibers to reach that distance.
 
#7
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

I should rephrase about the 800yd thing. I just want the rifle to be able to reach out to 800 and be consistent. Im not looking for tight groups, just that the rifle can perform hitting steel targets without me doubting the rifles ability.
 
#8
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

If you don't really care about the Mk12 MODX look or the OPS INC mount, the Army's SDM-R is probably a better fit for what you are describing.
As a bonus, it is also much less expensive.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1747129
sdmr4441halfsizetrue.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Squad_Designated_Marksman_Rifle
741px-SquadDesignatedMarksmen.jpg


As a pure precision AR and not a SOCOM weapon, the SDM-R should as good if not better accuracy.

Accuracy in an AR starts with the barrel and barrel harmonics.
The US ARMY AMU developed the chamber / barrel that is in both of these rifles.
The design goal of the SDM-R was to take a rack grade M-16 and turn it into a precision capable platform at minimal cost.
They did this by using a barrel assembly that the AMU designed and then coupled it with a free floating rail assembly.

This article will get you up to speed on the SDM-R
http://www.scribd.com/doc/23922065/Infan...YOU-spring-2005

The SDM-R will allow you to shoot futher and more accurately than you would expect...
 
#9
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

Hmmmmm. I think im gonna call high caliber and price out a MK 12 Mod 1 without the ops inc brake. At that point I think them Larue and BCM are all the same price. Im probably just gonna use an AAC blackout flash hider for a M4-100 I have on the way.
 
#10
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

First off...I would NOT go to the expense of a true Mk12 MOD1 like those offered by High Caliber Sales unless you are going to try to replicate an original. While they are truly excellent and they will get you into the class of accuracy you are looking for, for your stated purposes, you can spend less money and get an excellent upper (or complete rifle) that will do the same thing. I mean, with the HCS upper, you are paying for parts/features that will go unused or get tossed to the side to make room for your setup. For example, you don't need the Ops Inc collar and brake setup when you are planning on running an AAC Blackout FH and AAC suppressor, thus, why spend the money for them. Similarly with the Mk12 barrels...you can get an excellent 1:7 twist match barrel with bolt for less than the Mk12 since you don't need the specific contour for the Ops Inc collar and brake. Those are just a few examples of why going with the true Mk12 MOD1 clone is just adding expense that you don't need/won't use.

Check with the folks at Specialized Dynamics (custom AR rifle shop) and see what they can build for you using the best components/parts in mind for your ultimate goal of steel out to 800yds. http://www.specializeddynamics.com/

On a side note...if 800yds was my range threshold (whether on steel or otherwise)...I would skip the .223/5.56x45 altogether. I am not saying that it cannot be done because it certainly can...BUT, you are really hamstringing yourself with the .223 at that kind of extended range because of the inability to load the longer bullets at longer OALs because of mag limitations (unless you load singles), etc., etc.

If you want to stick to the AR-15 platform, have a look at the 6.5 Grendel or one of the many 6mm "super rounds" for the standard AR-15 platform. They will give you superior performance at all ranges the .223 will reach, as well as out to 1k and beyond with the right bullets.
 
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#11
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Birddog1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Those of us who have built Mk 12 clones have done it because we wanted that style.

I too think that you're "aiming" too high for consistent accuracy with a Mk 12; you're just pushing that bullet too hard in my opinion. There are better calibers to reach that distance.</div></div>

Agreed if you want a replica go for KAC and whole deal but if you want a rifle that will provide the same function for less and possibly better lighter rails, the get something of BCM which offers tons of setups. The Vltor setup is using the MUR upper which is awesome. The exact reason i'm paying for the BCM MK12 with the KAC rails is because i want a mk12 mod 1 and nothing else. Will it have all the exact parts of the original..no will it perform to the same extent... i have no doubt.
 
#12
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

If prone my 10.5 can get me to 500 hitting a torso sized steel target. Im sure most 18 match barrel uppers will get me to 800 with 77 grain. BCM, Highcaliber, ADCO, ect are all about the same price. If i call them and they bring down the price for not including the ops inc parts than its simpley a choice on which barrel. Its a choice between the mil barrel and bcm's.

Also I know the KAC is a bit of a beast but I dont mind weight. I do like the look of the KAC rails.
 
#13
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ajb008</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If prone my 10.5 can get me to 500 hitting a torso sized steel target. Im sure most 18 match barrel uppers will get me to 800 with 77 grain. BCM, Highcaliber, ADCO, ect are all about the same price. If i call them and they bring down the price for not including the ops inc parts than its simpley a choice on which barrel. Its a choice between the mil barrel and bcm's.

Also I know the KAC is a bit of a beast but I dont mind weight. I do like the look of the KAC rails.</div></div>

It's not the necessarily velocity thats the problem it's the cartridge in general. It's very possible to shoot 5.56 @ 800. Just with low BC, and it being a lighter cartridge it's affected by the wind much more. @ 800yds a 77gr @ 2800fps has 29 MOA drop (243.3in) and with a 10mph wind drift 10.6 MOA (88.9in) and only 232 ft/lb of energy. If you wanna shoot 800m steel then i suppose it really doesn't matter. It would be accomplished better with a .308 is all. No big deal I'm not trying to steer you away from it at all, just pointing out the facts.
 
#14
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

I like the SPR and it is effective for what it was made for, but as stated above I wouldn't waste my money on it.
I have accurized a few ARs for myself and my friends. I used sabre defence industries barrels and krieger barrels. I can vouch for both of them.
All I did was buy a good barrel, be sure to true your reciever. Freefloat the hand guard and go to work. Drop in a match trigger and that is pretty much it. As long as you are shooting good ammo.
The bad thing is that after doing all of that I took away all my excuses for missing. Now I only have myself to blame.
I'm thinking of creating another scapegoat for misses. So until they build a ballistic application for unstable,rising green house gasses and excessive ozone in my bullets flight path, that will be my excuse!
 
#15
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

Blackops_2, thx or the insight on the BCM line. I'm thinking of a BCM Mk 12 Mod 1U-Bravo (KAC/URX). I've searched for feedback and really didn't find any. Seems that this will be just fine for a black gun build.
 
#17
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I used sabre defence industries barrels and krieger barrels.
The bad thing is that after doing all of that I took away all my excuses for missing.
I'm thinking of creating another scapegoat for misses.flight path, that will be my excuse!
</div></div>
Here is your new excuse:
shocked.gif

Sabre Defence Executives Indicted on Illegal Gun Running Charges, and Company Assets Auctioned Off
 
#18
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ECHO4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Blackops_2, thx or the insight on the BCM line. I'm thinking of a BCM Mk 12 Mod 1U-Bravo (KAC/URX). I've searched for feedback and really didn't find any. Seems that this will be just fine for a black gun build.
</div></div>

I've only found one review for their SPR. But looking at the barrel reviews i see good results just as all their products. From their reputation of their carbine i wouldn't hesitate to get their MK 12. The slightest problem i have with it is their 18" SPRs are 1,000+. But after looking at the specs a SPR is going to be a pricey upper anyway you look at it. Same as the 20" SAM-R. The regular 18" and 20" uppers are a bit more fairly priced.
 
#19
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

The best price that I can find is an ADCO MK 12 Mod 1. Everything looks great with them, but I cannot find a review of their MK12 upper anywhere. Anyone on here have one from them?

I'm also really leaning towards the 1/7 twist. I know the 1/8 out of the BCM's will work. I just want that 1/7 when this is only going to be using 77 gr.
 
#21
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

1:8 is fine all the way up to 80gr from what i read. The 1:7 is supposedly to stabilize the Long tracer rounds in the military. I'm not 100% positive but that sounds like a good reason.
 
#22
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ajb008</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best price that I can find is an ADCO MK 12 Mod 1. Everything looks great with them, but I cannot find a review of their MK12 upper anywhere. Anyone on here have one from them?

I'm also really leaning towards the 1/7 twist. I know the 1/8 out of the BCM's will work. I just want that 1/7 when this is only going to be using 77 gr. </div></div>

The ADCO Mk12 MOD1 uppers are nowhere near the real Mk12 MOD1 uppers, BUT...they are excellent uppers and capable of good accuracy with good ammo and if the shooter does their part.

Personally, if I were in the market for a Mk12 upper, I would...WITHOUT A DOUBT...spend the extra $250 and get an upper from High Caliber Sales. For $1510 from HCS, you get the single most capable, accurate reproduction of the Mk12 MOD1 available!
 
#23
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The slightest problem i have with it is their 18" SPRs are 1,000+. </div></div>

Build your own upper then, or find someone to do it for you. Rainier has uppers for 100, bolt carriers for ~120, and white oak SPR barrels for 280. As long as you don't get stupid and put bling bling parts on it you can have a good shooter for 750 or so.
 
#24
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The slightest problem i have with it is their 18" SPRs are 1,000+. </div></div>

Build your own upper then, or find someone to do it for you. Rainier has uppers for 100, bolt carriers for ~120, and white oak SPR barrels for 280. As long as you don't get stupid and put bling bling parts on it you can have a good shooter for 750 or so.</div></div>

Well After figuring it up i'm only saving 100+ when building it myself with what i want. So i figured i'd settle with BCM.
 
#25
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

BCM makes good stuff, fret not about buying from them. So as long as you know going in that you're not getting a mk 12 spec build, then it's a non-issue. If you want a mk 12, go to High Caliber... and if not, then just buy the BCM or whatever other quality build suits your fancy. My "SPR" is a noveske... I didn't need a mk 12 and it shoots lights out, so i'm plenty satisfied. YMMV.
 
#26
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

IMO if your SPR is sporting an 18" barrel of a quality manufacturer, Ops. Inc. Brake, and KAC RAS rails it's a MK12 clone/look a like or intended to be.
 
#28
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

It's all in the barrel. Use a high caliber sales SPR barrel or Compass lake engineering barrel with a quality bolt, some form of freefloat forend and a match trigger.

I was super impressed with my CLE barrel. I bet that an SPR contour from them made from a krieger blank would be even better. (Kinda like a short SAM-R).

What's nice about the SPR is that the contour is really well balanced. Something like a noveske at the same weight but with it's taper contour, ends up feeling front heavy.

Also, the Ops Inc 12th model is an amazing suppressor. I have no POI shift on either of my SPR builds. It's quieter than any of the other 223 cans I've tried. I've accidentally hit it against rocks when hanging targets and it had no POI change. It's also got a really impressive projected lifetime.

What amazes me is that both my CLE and HCS barrels shoot XM193 really well. 1.5-1moa. This is a no BS grouping, 5 shots and over, multiple outings. I have shot a tiny .25MOA group with xm193 and the HCS SPR bbl, but it was most likely a fluke since I didn't repeat it.

I've also made over 70% hits on a 13"x24" steel plate at 750yds with the xm193 and the HCS bbl. This was on a VERY nice day with virtually no wind. If I had a bit better spotter info I might have been able to get a few more hits. You can see that my grouping was offset to the left of the plate.

Steel.jpg


Here are my 2 SPR type builds. I don't see any reason in building a spec build. Just build yours with the concept in mind and use the best quality components and a mindset of what exactly you'd like from the build.
SPR_Suppressed.jpg

SPR_2nd.jpg
 
#30
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

Here is a somewhat current price list for a 'contract' mk12 mod 1 upper. You can replace with cheaper parts to save some money. A decent amount can be saved with a cheaper barrel and rails. With that said, I went with a HCS upper and couldn't be happier. With 1/2" groups and better, I'm not sure I'd want to change anything.

sprbuild.jpg
 
#31
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcw1284</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BCM is making a mk12 collar & brake now too...</div></div>

Yeah but they've been put on hold now for another year. They were due last year this time and now they're "coming spring 2011" But who knows when they'll be here.
 
#32
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bcw1284</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BCM is making a mk12 collar & brake now too...</div></div>

Yeah but they've been put on hold now for another year. They were due last year this time and now they're "coming spring 2011" But who knows when they'll be here. </div></div>

I wonder if using these would void the warranty of the ops inc can? Well for all those dorks out there sucking up these mounts to make "spec builds" without an actually 12th model, I guess this will leave more of the real thing for those of us with the 12th model. (Sometimes they can be out of stock for a long ass time!)
 
#33
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Salmonaxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I wonder if using these would void the warranty of the ops inc can? Well for all those dorks out there sucking up these mounts to make "spec builds" without an actually 12th model, I guess this will leave more of the real thing for those of us with the 12th model. (Sometimes they can be out of stock for a long ass time!)</div></div>

I wouldn't think it would. Hopefully they will be out this spring because it's 80$ cheaper than the Ops. Inc. Brake & Collar.
 
#35
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pwerstroke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I went with the Centurion Arms MK12 Mod 1 upper with OPS Inc. 12 model because I wanted the closest possible upper to the Crane:

http://www.centurionarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=116&Itemid=138

Too bad NF stop selling the correct optic to the public for this rifle. </div></div>

What scope is the correct one, the 2.5-10x24? I thought that I'd heard that the .mil is now using the x32 as well.
 
#36
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

Kevin at HCS can get you the details and the gear.
The most accurate AR's I have ever seen or shot are the Les Baer's. Nothing else has come close. I have tried over a dozen others. They will uniformly out preform the stated gaurentee of .5 moa and hold it to long range. JMO
 
#39
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

I ended up assembling a bunch of great components to come up with a Mk12-ish rifle. It works just great and the Tubbs flat wire action spring really damps down the recoil. The Surefire can is very effective and my POI shift is 2" straight down at 100 yards. The Geissele two stage trigger is also excellent, probably the best AR trigger I've ever used.

556spr_900.jpg

556spr_can_900.jpg
 
#41
Re: Mk 12 mod1 ish question

I have decided to get the upper from High Caliber minus the ops inc and install a blackout comp for my M4-1000 that's on the way.

Thanks for the advice guys.
 
#44
High Caliber Sales (kevin) built my upper, have to say well worth the money, I know he's closing shop soon so now would be the time to get one from him if he still producing. The fact that he actually had his hand in building these back in the day adds a little nostalgia IMO. Douglas barrel hard to beat.
 
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