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MK vs LRI follower for ARC mags
- Thread starter bjay
- Start date
If a pain = 5mins then sure, but its a once in a mag thingy. I have found the MK followers are a dream for the dasher. Didnt have any issues with the standard ARC follower with my TL3 dasher, but the MK just made it a bit smoother. Love em
I didn’t think the mk was bad to install and it feeds like butter works great with the area 419 mag extension as well!
Well if you guys can tell me the trick I would appreciate it. I can't seem to get them to be straight or for the spring to stay in the hole. The spring gets so bent installing the follower it doesn't align correctly in the mag.
Yep. Same for me. Easy install. I didn’t have issues with the TL3 either but wanted it to be “better.”
I have now run about 400 rounds of 6.5 CM using the LRI follower without a single issue. Very happy as I would have occasional problems with the factory one. No experience with MK.
Installed the LRI follower and had a dirt jam within an hour of use on a windy day. Dirt got in between the mag wall and side of follower.
I have four mags, bought four followers and Needless to say I am over $400 in.
I am also running a mausingfield with ptg bottom metal and I have to force the mags up to seat.
In the box of do not use they go. Flush that money away.
I have four mags, bought four followers and Needless to say I am over $400 in.
I am also running a mausingfield with ptg bottom metal and I have to force the mags up to seat.
In the box of do not use they go. Flush that money away.
One other thing, if you have a surgeon action you need to dremel off the front of the follower at a 45 degree angle so it doesn't hit the feed ramp. Otherwise the last round will nose dive into the ramp and it won't feed.
I am running a mausingfield in a KRG Bravo chassis. Put another 150 rounds thru it today in windy / dusty conditions. Not one single issue.
Concerning other comments above...I also have another mausingfield with PTG bottom metal. The mag latch on the bottom metal needs to be filed down slightly to fit the ARC mag. Had to do this to get them to latch in the bottom metal properly. No big deal
Concerning other comments above...I also have another mausingfield with PTG bottom metal. The mag latch on the bottom metal needs to be filed down slightly to fit the ARC mag. Had to do this to get them to latch in the bottom metal properly. No big deal
Tried both followers in a Curtis Axiom/Mpa chassis chambered in 6.5 creed. Neither work. Rounds are always getting caught under feed ramp. Seems a follower won’t solve the issue of the rounds moving forward and not clearing the feed ramp.
Wish I could help out here. We don't have any ARC mags around to take a pic. Have been waiting on more for....a while. Ted wanted us to buy a LOT LOT LOT in order to be a dealer, far beyond the amount of mags I could ever hope to move. I planned on selling them with our follower installed.
That's actually exactly what the follower is supposed to help, have you tried messing with feed lips at all though?
Contact us. Taking money for nothing is not how I do stuff. Never have. Lets fix this.
There is a fix. One that I've chatted about off/on since the intro of the ARC magazines.
Gotta look at the feedlip geo to get a feel on this. The ARC magazine moves the cartridge in an arc like movement from sidewall to center. Where's the AI stuff is straight up, then over. The arc motion can cause magazine box geometries in receivers to cause the projectile nose to catch. As you are experiencing.
The ramp needs a slight modification. Not really "Dremel tool" level as to get it correct involves a little work.
CAD image of what I am referencing.
It's a service we've done now to quite a few actions. The ghist here is to avoid going "Blackwater" on the feed ramp as it does serve as a lug abutment also.
Happy to help.
C.
I would advise not playing with feed lips. The ARC magazines are heat treated. They are not easy to push around and a few have broken the things off.
To all who've posted here, here's an attempt at some help on this stuff:
Case presentation to the bolt face is a big deal on a repeating bolt action. Any action for that matter. On a bolt gun using staggered stack, center feed magazines the best luck I've had is to follow the "upside down figure 8" rule.
Meh?
Draw a big circle. Now stick a smaller one under it where the two arcs just touch on the bottom of the big one and the top of the small. This represents the bore of the action (big circle) and the primer pocket of the case. (small arc).
If you pull the bolt and insert a gassed up magazine, you want to be able to see the very top of the primer pocket just barely invading the receiver bore. This will provide the required case overlap to ensure reliable feeding in almost any circumstance.
ARC Magazine particulars:
This magazine was designed with shorter feedlips to lend well to actions using controlled round feeding. Short feedlips "advance" the timing of when the bolt gets to purchase the case. In this case, earlier in stroke. Doing so gives plenty of time for the rim to get on the bolt face and be retained by the extractor claw.
A push feed generally responds to this better later in the cycle. Here you want the bullet to run up the ramp and get inside the arc circle of the breech ring. This way when it's popped off the feedlips, it has the "funnel effect" well in play. Guys running flat breech type actions are probably having better luck with short cartridges like the Dasher, BRX, etc because the bullet gets captured sooner. M700's with rebated breech rings are the one's more likely to be little shit heads. There's just too much room for the case to flop around too soon in the delivery.
Bighorns run the flat breech setup where's most 700 knock offs do not. The Creeds and other 2.8" family of SA cartridges seem to work fine.
As for latches not working. This has been a reality in this game for a long time. Stocks get inletted by one guy and fitted up and bedded by another. The margin allowed isn't all that big. Its also very, very, VERY common for magazines to hang up on the back side of the receiver's magazine mortise. (between the Mickey ears) Tuned actions often get plauged with this as cutting the receiver ring effectively pulls everything forward. If the magazine is hitting the bottom of the action, the latch will be problematic.
Just some FYI. Hope this helps.
Case presentation to the bolt face is a big deal on a repeating bolt action. Any action for that matter. On a bolt gun using staggered stack, center feed magazines the best luck I've had is to follow the "upside down figure 8" rule.
Meh?
Draw a big circle. Now stick a smaller one under it where the two arcs just touch on the bottom of the big one and the top of the small. This represents the bore of the action (big circle) and the primer pocket of the case. (small arc).
If you pull the bolt and insert a gassed up magazine, you want to be able to see the very top of the primer pocket just barely invading the receiver bore. This will provide the required case overlap to ensure reliable feeding in almost any circumstance.
ARC Magazine particulars:
This magazine was designed with shorter feedlips to lend well to actions using controlled round feeding. Short feedlips "advance" the timing of when the bolt gets to purchase the case. In this case, earlier in stroke. Doing so gives plenty of time for the rim to get on the bolt face and be retained by the extractor claw.
A push feed generally responds to this better later in the cycle. Here you want the bullet to run up the ramp and get inside the arc circle of the breech ring. This way when it's popped off the feedlips, it has the "funnel effect" well in play. Guys running flat breech type actions are probably having better luck with short cartridges like the Dasher, BRX, etc because the bullet gets captured sooner. M700's with rebated breech rings are the one's more likely to be little shit heads. There's just too much room for the case to flop around too soon in the delivery.
Bighorns run the flat breech setup where's most 700 knock offs do not. The Creeds and other 2.8" family of SA cartridges seem to work fine.
As for latches not working. This has been a reality in this game for a long time. Stocks get inletted by one guy and fitted up and bedded by another. The margin allowed isn't all that big. Its also very, very, VERY common for magazines to hang up on the back side of the receiver's magazine mortise. (between the Mickey ears) Tuned actions often get plauged with this as cutting the receiver ring effectively pulls everything forward. If the magazine is hitting the bottom of the action, the latch will be problematic.
Just some FYI. Hope this helps.
There is a fix. One that I've chatted about off/on since the intro of the ARC magazines.
Gotta look at the feedlip geo to get a feel on this. The ARC magazine moves the cartridge in an arc like movement from sidewall to center. Where's the AI stuff is straight up, then over. The arc motion can cause magazine box geometries in receivers to cause the projectile nose to catch. As you are experiencing.
The ramp needs a slight modification. Not really "Dremel tool" level as to get it correct involves a little work.
CAD image of what I am referencing.
It's a service we've done now to quite a few actions. The ghist here is to avoid going "Blackwater" on the feed ramp as it does serve as a lug abutment also.
Happy to help.
C.
I fully understand what you are trying to explain and understand the modification you are showing. My only hang up is modifying a $1k+ action to make a certain brand magazine work. I don’t know that I’d be comfortable doing such a modification. Just my opinion on it.
Thanks for taking the time to type that out and explain it very clearly though.
FWIW these things do seem to be working. 2 weeks ago I ran a couple hundred as the "litmus test".
Were down to four left. The Kitty (Kitamura) is running more now.
The business is greatly appreciated.
Were down to four left. The Kitty (Kitamura) is running more now.
The business is greatly appreciated.
Just an update on my end, I tried them in a Mausingfield/MPA setup chambered in 6.5x47. They worked great. I had previously had the Mausingfield in a KRG W3 with the stock followers and it wouldn’t work so definite improvement there.
I know you guys are always standup in what you do. You are just trying to solve a bad problem that seems to be at best intermittent. Some magazines they just run and others not so much.
A week or so ago I had sent some info and questions via FB messenger about the jam.
Its just frustrating especially since I am running a mausingfield and had my gunsmith (mile high shooting) do the modification to the rifle etc.
I'll just stick with AICS for competition and mess with these over the winter.
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I think the problem lies in inconsistencies with the mag and spring itself. Maybe the new MDT mags will be better, they look similar.
Okay could someone post some pic's of a mag in a surgeon I have 2 and love the idea of 10 rounders but am having a metric shit ton of problems trying to get them to feed, my bolt goes over the top of the round when the mag is full and then when the mag is almost empty they nose dive.
What caliber are you shooting? Put one round in the mag and look into the chamber when you insert it. Does the nose dive when you do this? Also is there a lot of slop when the mag is inserted if you push on the bottom? As in is the mag sitting too low?
Surgeons seem to have problems with stock mags, and improved followers. All other stuff for the most part seems very reliable.
I got your follower to work in the Surgeon by taking a dremmel and removing the material in the front of the follower at a 45 degree angle. Works great now. I noticed that the last round was nose diving and so i watched as a put the mag in. Sure as shit the front of the follower was hitting the feed ramp and getting pushed down. 2 min with a dremmel and we were golden. I think that the other issue is with 6.5 Creedmoor due to the length of the bullet. It gets caught under the ramp because for some reason the get pushed forward in the mag as the spring tension lessens as rounds are feed and ejected.
I'd be highly surprised to see these magazines "inconsistent". That is a problem I've not experienced and we'ved handled a mess of them. The physical dimensions are very carefully controlled and springs are made on automated equipment. If there is one thing manufacturing knows how to make well in quantity its a spring as they are used all over the place and have been for centuries.
I would be very curious to see exactly what you are eluding to.
Read my opening statement in this regarding case presentation. If your bolt is running over the cases then I'm almost 100% certain its not a follower issue. Its been my experience that no follower will solve that problem. Based on what your stating it sounds more of an issue with how far your magazine is "reaching" into the bolt circle of the action. "Figure 8" rule... (mentioned earlier in this thread)
First thing to check, make sure you cannot see or feel the back of the magazine mortise in the action. Look straight down the length of the DBM's internal box. Nothing other than the release lever should be extending/reaching into that envelope. If the back of the action is, that is the first problem to solve. This prevents the magazine from reaching inside the action like it needs to. The back of the mag box will hang up on the action.
Next, make sure you can see some primer extending into the bolt circle.
If your cases still nose over, then I would call that a follower issue. Sometimes fiddling with the spring will help this, but the better answer is having a follower that's not inclined to behave this way.
Good luck.
Sure. The big issue with the OEM ARC follower is foriegn matter. They just don't respond well to dirt and funk. The other is the nose diving behavior they are susceptible to. Those are the two big problems the aftermarket followers are trying to solve. Take a moment and look over my earlier posts regarding the design, intent. See if it fits your needs.
Remember, a lot and I mean A LOT of guns get fitted with DBM's incorrectly. Buzzing the sidewalls with a dremel and stabbing it in the bottom may very well be a way to get it to fit in the stock, but unless you have at least a manual mill, it's going to be a challenge to set the case rim presentation properly. The "blacksmith" practice(s) of beating on feed lips does not usually end well and should be avoided in 9/10 circumstances. Its really only relevant when taking a magazine and setting it up to run a bigger case like a WSM. Even then you have to be very, very careful.
That kind of stuff is the #1 cause for drama in my experience and the first thing we look at when attempting to resolve a DBM related feeding issue on a rifle built somewhere else.
I can't speak for firsthand measurements, but have had several customers state after feeding issues, talking directly with ARC that they were told spring or mag seemed out of spec, and to send it back for a replacement, after which feeding was better for them.
A second potential inconsistency may be customer error, but numerous times I've been told the spring was "flipped" already, with our follower we recommend the spring be turned 180* to help put more pressure on the front of the follower.
Lastly, some customers report one mag feeding well, another not.
Again, I can't speak directly about something I've measured/seen myself, but I have sold quite a pile of followers and above is some information reported back that I hope is useful.
Thank you.
Moon @ crescent customs is my Smith, so no worries of me taking a dremel his builds. I'll give him one to make sure it's properly fit when he fits everything up.
Thanks again.
No I would not say that,. I have a mausingfield with the lri follower and the gunsmith modification and still have issues with dirt jams.
I am sure they will get it figured out eventually and if you are a betting man it would probably work. Just buyer beware.
