Moa conversions

[Graham]

Re: Moa conversions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, why not just answer the question?</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not just answer the question. Without understanding what size the block of wood is in constant linear terms, you do not have enough information to know what to do, even if you see the block of wood in mils or MOA through your scope. At some point, to understand what hold off or sight adjustment is necessary in mils or MOA you must first know what the constant linear size for this block of wood is.</div></div>That's still not correct,... </div></div>

 

[SHWILL]

Re: Moa conversions

Sterling---My post was for the OP. Just thought the video may be some help to him. I did not get caught up in all the post between the OP and now. Just trying to help.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Moa conversions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, why not just answer the question?</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not just answer the question. Without understanding what size the block of wood is in constant linear terms, you do not have enough information to know what to do, even if you see the block of wood in mils or MOA through your scope. At some point, to understand what hold off or sight adjustment is necessary in mils or MOA you must first know what the constant linear size for this block of wood is.</div></div>That's still not correct,... </div></div></div></div>

It appears you have realized that you can't answer the question without knowing the constant linear size of the target in inches yards, feet, meters, whatever. And, although you might believe the so called self contained MOA system is enough to properly compensate for trajectory and the effects on trajectory it is not always enough.

Graham, you appear to be a brilliant guy, and I have enjoyed this civil exchange of ideas. I understand your position and I even agree that in some scenarios the MOA reticle can be used without any consideration for conversion from MOA to inches or perhaps inches to MOA; however, this discovery has limitations. These are very apparent when attempting to shoot at an unknown size target at an unknown distance. To get distance to target the target must be appraised in linear terms. And, for folks who have used linear measurements to describe the size of things for most of their lives there's really no reason not to learn MOA from a linear basis of understanding. BTW, in the SDM program students are required to provide answers regarding necessary movement to correct impact in both MOA and in inches. Then they are properly prepared for any sort of sight.

 

[mrunge]

Re: Moa conversions

It all boils down to the inherent nature of men misjudging what 6 inches really looks like, or was that 6 MOA...

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Moa conversions

6 inches is always 6 inches. 6 moa changes in size.

6 inches is 6 inches at 600 yards. 6 MOA is 36 inches at 600 yards.

6 inches is 6 inches at 400 yards. 6 MOA is 24 inches at 400 yards.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Moa conversions

Close enough. That's basically my guestimation process.

 

[mrunge]

Re: Moa conversions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">6 inches is always 6 inches. 6 moa changes in size.

6 inches is 6 inches at 600 yards. 6 MOA is 36 inches at 600 yards.

6 inches is 6 inches at 400 yards. 6 MOA is 24 inches at 400 yards. </div></div>

+1 YEAP!

The "linear" measurement(inches) is constant. MOA/MIL changes due to the "Radial" measurement. Remember when you were told math would someday save you...lol

 

[Graham]

Re: Moa conversions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It appears you have realized that you can't answer the question without knowing the constant linear size of the target in inches yards, feet, meters, whatever.... To get distance to target the target must be appraised in linear terms.</div></div>That's not correct. And repeating it does not make it true.

For example, when:

A is the location of the FFP
B is the location of the OP or second FFP
C is the location of the target

c is the base line distance
b is the distance from the FFP to the target
a is the distance from the OP to the target

1. Establish point A and record the azimuth to point C (target)
2. Turn 90 degrees, run a baseline to point B
3. Place stake to secure cord, move to point B
4. At point B record azimuth to target
5. Solve for ‘b’, the range to the target.

When using the above method, the 'constant linear size' of the target is not necessary.

Even if I was not to use this method, in a real-world Designated Marksman scenario your example falls short of how a DM most effectively uses the Mil or MOA relation to hit a target of unknown size at an unknown distance: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's another example: you want to hit a block of wood at an unknown distance. At its distance it appears to be 3 mils in width. What information do you still need to hit the target. I've already told you it looks like 3 mils and you've already told me you see things in MOA so it would appear you'd have enough information to hit the target but you don't. You still need to know something else. What is it?</div></div>The amount of elevation I have already dialed on the rifle.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moa conversions

D'uh regardless of what unit you use, inches, mils or MOA if you don't' know the size of the object you can't figure the distance it is math. However if you know the size of the target, as in the 36" example, the answer is simple and in fact math free... there is no extra work to determine the range. In fact I use no math in the field because any math necessary is pre-determined ahead of time.

As shown here,

By eliminating the linear value in shooting, the student is quicker to learn and more effective, as well it eliminates the mistake many make by trying to "multiple" the number based on the range.

if you read 2 MOA on the reticle in your scope the answer is 2 MOA in adjustment on the turrets. Same with Mils, 2 Mils in the scope equals 2 Mils on the turrets.

In the past because people are taught the inches increase with each range they are constantly multiplying the number and then trying to figure what that adjustment equals on the scope.

it's not 1978, people are not using Irons sights to that degree and we have figured out a much more efficient way of doing business in the field.

Because a mil is 1/1000 of a distance, that means it works with anything, inches, ft, yard, miles

3.6 inches in 3,600 inches,
1 yard in a 1000 yards
3 ft in 3000 ft

That is a mil, plain and simple

if the target is truly of an unknown distance nature, or for that fact not in full view, you have a hard time figuring the miss hold based off an incomplete number.

If the Shooter runs behind a wall at 687 yards and is now using it for cover, I can simply measure the impact to get an exact second shot follow up on target, rather than trying to say,

"I see part of a head that is 6x9 inches in size (maybe) ", now you want me to guess how far away my hit was from the head guessing that distance from 687 yards away from the target. And who is to say the range is still 687 yards ?

With a closed system that matches, you simply read the reticle, make the adjustment, and fire. There is no estimation on the hold, it's exact. Doesn't matter the size of the target or the distance. If you never even range the object, if you simply guess, it looks 650 yards away and fire your first shot, you can then adjust the impact hitting exactly where you need to without doing anything at all.
In fact I can hit a target at 500 yards, transition to a new target by holding over some and then firing. See my impact and make the correction in less than 5 seconds.

At K&M Sterling, they had a stage, 5 target from 300 to 700 yards of varying sizes. You had to run up a tower, without ranging they gave you 6 shots for the 5 targets, I hit all of them with the run to the tower in less than 1 minute. 54 seconds.

Tell me how YOU would solve that with inches ? Remember you weren't allowed to range and were under time ?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moa conversions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">6 inches is always 6 inches. 6 moa changes in size.

6 inches is 6 inches at 600 yards. 6 MOA is 36 inches at 600 yards.

6 inches is 6 inches at 400 yards. 6 MOA is 24 inches at 400 yards.</div></div>

If you are using a scope and a close system, it doesn't change in size... it is exactly what you see is what you get.

6 MOA on the reticle is 6 MOA on the turrets,

2 Mils on the Reticle is 2 Mils on the turrets

In reality who cares how big the target is, and who says the target is going to give you a full view ?

If you see a block of wood and you want to hit it, you can visualize the range estimation and send a round. Measure the distance from the impact to the target and make exactly that correction to hit it. After you hit it go back and look at your data book to determine the range.

If the target is 6 inches and you miss, but see your splash, guessing what 6" away from something looks like is much less precise and if you are 600 yards away trying to hit a 6" target, missing 6 inches off of it might not appear to be 6 inches away.

When I stand to the side of shooters, and see them miss I figure the miss in mils, I know what it looks like in the reticle and can say, "hold a .5 mil more" without the aid of the reticle because I do it enough.

New shooters taught to use the reticle as a ruler and a tool are gonna excel over a shooter being taught to "guess-estimate" the distance.

This is precision rifle, the more we do to reduce the number of guesses the more accurate you'll be

 

[Chanonry]

Re: Moa conversions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
5 target from 300 to 700 yards of varying sizes. You had to run up a tower, without ranging they gave you 6 shots for the 5 targets, I hit all of them with the run to the tower in less than 1 minute. 54 seconds.

</div></div>

Good range estimates or was there more to it than that?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moa conversions

5 Targets from 300 to 700

No distance given, no ranging device allowed

No target size given (Personally I didn't care how big they were)

6 shots maximum allowed

You start from about 10 yards from the base of the tower, under time run up to the deck, locate, and engage the targets. This was your first look at the targets as they are down a lane in the woods.

I know what my solution was, (I hit them all) I want to see what Sterling's would be or even Kraig's for this problem ?

54 seconds was my time, and I fired 6 shots.

 

[Graham]

Re: Moa conversions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">5 Targets from 300 to 700
No distance given, no ranging device allowed
No target size given (Personally I didn't care how big they were)
6 shots maximum allowed</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tell me how YOU would solve that with inches ? Remember you weren't allowed to range and were under time ? </div></div>That's a better question; I wish I had thought of it.

 

[mrunge]

Re: Moa conversions

Oh hellz yeah, I LIKE that chart Lowlight!

One can see where a Mil-Dot scope with MOA turrets can jack with you. If 1 Mil is 36" at 1000yds and you dial 1 "MOA" well you know the outcome.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moa conversions

Ian from Shooting Voodoo made it, I didn't

 

[UIUCPPQ]

Re: Moa conversions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">5 Targets from 300 to 700

No distance given, no ranging device allowed

No target size given (Personally I didn't care how big they were)

6 shots maximum allowed

You start from about 10 yards from the base of the tower, under time run up to the deck, locate, and engage the targets. This was your first look at the targets as they are down a lane in the woods.

I know what my solution was, (I hit them all) I want to see what Sterling's would be or even Kraig's for this problem ?

54 seconds was my time, and I fired 6 shots. </div></div>

I'd be interested to hear what you did to successfully hit all the targets in this course. I can think of at least one method but it's fairly reliant on size of the targets / guesswork

 

[Lcpl Hinson]

Re: Moa conversions

Yeahhh u answered my question a long time ago. But didn't mean to make a big controversy post. Didn't know so many ppl felt different ways about stuff. I've been instructed on military manuals from the military so I understand trajectory and wind/humidity/pressure etc. I was just confused cause I was too it had to be converted back to inches. But it was cleared up and easy now lol. When I go home on leave I'm gonna set up my range and post something about my results. I've only been instructed to shoot up to 500 yards. So 1000 yard range should be interesting.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Moa conversions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">5 Targets from 300 to 700

No distance given, no ranging device allowed

No target size given (Personally I didn't care how big they were)

6 shots maximum allowed

You start from about 10 yards from the base of the tower, under time run up to the deck, locate, and engage the targets. This was your first look at the targets as they are down a lane in the woods.

I know what my solution was, (I hit them all) I want to see what Sterling's would be or even Kraig's for this problem ?

54 seconds was my time, and I fired 6 shots. </div></div>

Lets see: Unk distance, unk size of the target, no range finding device????

No sir, I'd be hard put to pull it off. For me, I'd have to know something that isn't listed, whether I used Mil Dot, Mils, MOA, Inches, range finder... Something. If I had the distance I can figure the size of the target, if I had the size of the target I could find distance, either of the two or some sort of range finder.

Kind of like math, if you have A & B you can find C, but its hard to find C if you don't have A nor B.

Short of bracketing the target as in mortars or arty, I couldn't do it. Not allowed with 6 shot limit on 5 targets.

Now I've used mils in laying in guns (machine guns) using fingers 'n such (to est. mils), but that was grazing or searching fire, not rifle fire.

Something is missing and I don't know what it is unless you have a super flat trajectory and big targets that fits the ordinate between 300 and 700 yards.

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Moa conversions

If (and this is a big if because that info isn't available to any readers of this thread) the closest target was large enough, you ought to be able to make an educated guess as to the range. At somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 yd per LL's post, the odds of a 1st round hit are much better on the closest target. If the target was big enough, you should be able to compare POA and POI to the elevation setting and come up with a pretty good range estimation almost instantly if you know the dope for your system really well. After that, it seems that there would be at least a couple different ways to determine the hold for the remaining targets, but I'm only guessing at this point, and the biggest limitation was obviously time. I would appreciate hearing the explanation of how it was actually done.

 

[takeaim1st]

Re: Moa conversions

Having read this thread, I have not ( may of missed it ) , read anywhere at what range the rifle is zeroed. Unless you are some kind of wizard you have to know at least one constant and, that is the one I would want to start with . To go along with that , know the PB trajectory. If the target size is within the limits of a PB strike, for me that would be the fastest solution. Beyond that, for me I would have to see POI so that I could reference it to POA . Then I could use the increment markings of the reticle or the turrets as long as I know what the value of each are marked in. Now if you don't know your zero and, you aren't lucky or good enough to make an impact and be ale to see it. Wave your magic wand and pitch some fairy dust.

 

[wrhunter]

Re: Moa conversions

So were the 5 targets all the same size? I could see this working if that is the case by spotting a miss and using the reticle to correct and get size of Target based on a good center mass second round hit.

 

[Graham]

Re: Moa conversions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lcpl Hinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been instructed on military manuals from the military so I understand trajectory and wind/humidity/pressure etc.</div></div>You may have been instructed incorrectly regarding humidity, depending on which military manual you used.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moa conversions

The rifle is zeroed at 100 yards, but that is not necessarily the dope I used, and the Targets were not all the same size, they varied in size and distance from 300 to 700 yards, and I have yet to see anyone offer up a solution, especially from the thread's resident experts.

It was really quite simple and I didn't dial once the clock started I will give you that clue.

 

[Graham]

Re: Moa conversions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...and I have yet to see anyone offer up a solution, especially from the thread's resident experts. </div></div>You shot the whole thing with a reverse image zero and less than your 840 yard dope on the rifle.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moa conversions

Damn I knew you would figure it out, but to get a reverse image zero from a traditionally zeroed rifle I had to hold the rifle upside-down which was tricky.

 

[Graham]

Re: Moa conversions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn I knew you would figure it out, but to get a reverse image zero from a traditionally zeroed rifle I had to hold the rifle upside-down which was tricky. </div></div>LOL!

I just mount my scope backwards, which does the same thing. Of course, if you are using iron sights this method is much more dangerous.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Moa conversions

Actually it was quite simple... and since it not rocket science and its been hanging here so long...

Think, 5 targets,

300 - 1
400 - 2
500 - 3
600 - 4
700 - 5

So you know you have roughly 100 yards between each target, so really the only range estimation you have is from target to target.

Moving 100 yards at a time you need approximately 1 mil, give or take but thankfully not enough to miss vertically. So you know you have to hold at least 1 mil per target, but if the targets appears to be more than 100 yards, you can fudge it and hold a bit more.... not much more than 1.5 mils which is certainly not going to be taller than the target.

So before starting I put my 300 yard dope on the rifle, I consulted my range card and my range card had the danger space, so I knew just how much I could get away with, one target was further than 100 yards from the next, and each target I saw my impact, so I was able to overlay that "look" to the other targets.

The answer, hold a mil over, and by a mil over that is from "center" and not the head... and fire, if the target looked farther I held 1/2 the size of the target more.

 

[chansen49]

Re: Moa conversions



Jeez Frank, That matches the Bulletflight dope for the 09 SH rifle with 142 smk..

2.1,3.1,4.1,5.1 I gonna guess this aint your first rodeo..?

Ch

 

[Graham]

Re: Moa conversions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chansen49</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that matches the Bulletflight dope for the 09 SH rifle with 142 smk... </div></div>LMFAO!
I just KNEW someone was going to bring up the 2009 Sniper's Hide build.

 

[chansen49]

Re: Moa conversions



Why is that funny? The wound is still open..


Ch

 

[jolofree]

Re: Moa conversions

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