Rifle Scopes MOA or MRAD for first scope?

[cowzrul]

I read through the sticky on Optics Selection and changed my mind from the SWFA SS 10x to the 6x. Now I am just down to the option between MOA or MRAD. Any tips or things I should think about when deciding between the two?

Mounting on Savage 10FCP-k in .308 for shots under 500 mostly in 150-300 while deer hunting for now.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

Matching reticle and adjustments makes it easier on the mind... I would go Mrad... and have.

 

[NachtKracht]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

Just depends on what you used to. If you prefer working with moa because you got a moa reticle and always have been using minutes of angle with al your shooting, stick to the moa.

In the end, it does not really matter, although if you have some sort of moa reticle, i'd also stick with the moa clicks. A mildot reticle with moa clicks, is do-able, but requires just a little more calculating, same as a moa reticle with mrad clicks.

Personally i prefer the mil mil stuf, Mildot reticle with 0.1 mil clicks. But than again, i am euro trash so we are kinda used to everything metric.

What does make me more curious, is your choice of a non-variable scope of 6x. It is more than enough for your kind of hunting and shooting, however, with todays quality scopes i never understand why someone would not buy a variable of lets say, 5-25x. Unless ofcourse it is a financial matter.

Kind regards,

NK.

 

[Graham]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

Mils. Why do the extra math with that scope?

 

[SPfeiffer]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

If you are dead set on a mil dot scope I would go with mils on the adjustment. and buy a mil dot master!

 

[JC189]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

personal prefrence, what are you used to, and how are you gonna use the rifle? If its mostly gonna be a hunting rifle and not a long range gun, I like moa. you said your shots are between 150&300 yds. I would just zero it at 200 yds. and adjust from there.

 

[ORD]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

+1 on the above re: the "collars and cuffs" matching.

If you go with a mil-based reticle...stick with mil-based adjustments/turrets. Same thing with an MOA-based reticle and MOA-based adjustments/turrets. No sense making life any more complicated!

 

[Jethro3898]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

I had this same question about a year ago.
I'd suggest MRAD with matching turrets.

 

[Jhnmdahl]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

If you're learning from scratch, stick with radians rather than minutes of angle as a base unit.

 

[42769vette]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

as long as its moa reticle and moa adjustment, or mil reticle and mil adjustments the rest is preferance

 

[StayHidden]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

I would start with mil for sure if you're just starting out. Can be more precise than MOA.

It's really all what you prefer though. Would you rather be calculating in meters or feet/inches?

Always save yourself the trouble and go with matching reticle/turrets no matter what.

 

[Mile High Shooting]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StayHidden</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would start with mil for sure if you're just starting out. <span style="color: #FF0000">Can be more precise than MOA.
</span>
It's really all what you prefer though. Would you rather be calculating in meters or feet/inches?

Always save yourself the trouble and go with matching reticle/turrets no matter what.</div></div>

How are mil-radians more precise than MOA? Why go mil-radian? Everyone lists someone should go with it but nobody lists why.

-Sean

 

[427Cobra]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

MRAD all the way, there is nothing easier simpler or more effective for this type of shooting, some people stick with MOAs and there is nothing wrong with MOAs, but every single scope maker on the planet makes a Mildot or Mildot based reticle scope, and most offer .1MRAD knobs, no 2 scope makers on the planet make the same MOA reticle, and then you gotta figure out if your knobs are SMOA TMOA or incorrectly marked IPHY.

 

[ANGLICOMarine]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StayHidden</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would start with mil for sure if you're just starting out. Can be more precise than MOA.

It's really all what you prefer though. Would you rather be calculating in meters or feet/inches?

Always save yourself the trouble and go with matching reticle/turrets no matter what. </div></div>

I think that you have a point as far as the math goes...always easier to math in factors of ten. How is MRAD more precise than MOA? .1MRAD, which is the finest adjustment I've seen equals 3.94 inches at 1K. .25 MOA, which is the finest PRACTICAL adjustment (except in the case of target rifles...there you can get .125 MOA adjustments), equals 2.5 inches (about). What am I missing? I really would like to know as I'm thinking about an MRAD scope myself...but with my understanding, you get finer adjustment with a MOA unit scope....

 

[Rob01]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ANGLICO Marine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I think that you have a point as far as the math goes...always easier to math in factors of ten. How is MRAD more precise than MOA? .1MRAD, which is the finest adjustment I've seen equals 3.94 inches at 1K. .25 MOA, which is the finest PRACTICAL adjustment (except in the case of target rifles...there you can get .125 MOA adjustments), equals 2.5 inches (about). What am I missing? I really would like to know as I'm thinking about an MRAD scope myself...but with my understanding, you get finer adjustment with a MOA unit scope....</div></div>

Actually .1 mil at 1000 yards is 3.6" and .25 MOA at 1000 yards is 2.6". If you can shoot inside 1" to see the difference at that distance then you are a better man than me.

Just get matching reticle and knobs in whatever unit floats your boat.

 

[ANGLICOMarine]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

Just talking math and adjustments responding to someone saying Mils is a finer adjustment than MOA. So are you saying that there really is no benefit if the as long as the reticle unit matches the adjustment unit?
So I'm understanding that functionally virtually no difference, but the math is easier with Mils, is that correct?

 

[cowzrul]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

I appreciate all the discussion. The big take-away for me is to have matching reticle/turrets.

NK asked why not got with a variable 5-25x -- After buying 2 long guns and the scope for my sons Vanguard I would prefer to keep this purchase somewhat inexpensive. Besides I have fired 1000 yards at Quantico and Camp Perry with open sights. So I don't see myself going beyond 500 at all. This rifle will be for an occasional deer hunt and some practice with my PD's Tac Team. If I don't get the SWFA SS 6x I will probably get a variable 2.5-10x.

 

[Jethro3898]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowzrul</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I appreciate all the discussion. The big take-away for me is to have matching reticle/turrets.
</div></div>

Absolutely!
With today's scope choices, there isn't much reason to NOT have matching reticle/turrets.

 

[Rob01]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ANGLICO Marine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just talking math and adjustments responding to someone saying Mils is a finer adjustment than MOA. So are you saying that there really is no benefit if the as long as the reticle unit matches the adjustment unit?
So I'm understanding that functionally virtually no difference, but the math is easier with Mils, is that correct?</div></div>

Yup no real advantage although as mentioned some MOA scopes can be in IPHY or SMOA where the MOA is rounded to 1" at 100 yards. A mil is a mil in scopes so you don't have to worry about it.

Also having a scope in the same graduation as your shooting partner or whoever will be spotting for you helps as well for calling faster corrections.

 

[teerex]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

My first tactical scope was a nightforce, and I got MOA/MOA. I now have more decent optics, that are MIL/MIL. I wish I would have gotten the nightforce that way to start with.

 

[slowkota]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

I'm switching to a mil/mil after playing around on ShooterReady... The math seems easier, should of switched a long time ago!

 

[AzNooB]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

Mil/Mil ftw.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AzNooB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mil/Mil ftw. </div></div>

+1

Decided I will piggy back your posts so I can get to 5k in no time and get the SH gift basket

 

[hiddenmongoose]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NachtKracht</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> But than again, i am euro trash so we are kinda used to everything metric.

NK. </div></div>

mil/mil scopes are not metric.its an angular measurement and does not make a difference if your shooting meters or yards or measuring cm or inchs. a mil is a mil regardless of units involved.

get a scope with matching turrets as already stated.get it in the unit that the majority of your buddies are shooting so you can all talk the same 'language'.if you get moa then check to see if its IPHY .Personnally i prefer mil/mil

 

[rwleonard]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

For my use (LR groundhogs) MOA is better. Mil dots are worse than useless as they cover the entire hog and then some, if you are using them for hold-off. None of them range a hog well at LR.

For deer? Whichever you like or think is cool.

I whole-heartedly agree with having the reticle and turrets match.

FWIW,

Rick

 

[paulL01]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

So, one could also say that moa would be better for lr target
shooting as well because if the mil will cover up a ground hog
at lr it would also cover a lot of the target?

 

[The Busby]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

Not sure where the data is coming from on some of these post's....but it's pretty far off.

1 mil (milliradian) is equal to 3.6" at 100 yards
1 mil (milliradian) is equal to 36" at 1000 yards

1 moa is equal to 1" at 100 yards
1 moa is equal to 10" at 1000 yards

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...646#Post3379646

 

[Rob01]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: send-it</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure where the data is coming from on some of these post's....but it's pretty far off.

1 mil (milliradian) is equal to 3.6" at 100 yards
1 mil (milliradian) is equal to 36" at 1000 yards

1 moa is equal to 1" at 100 yards
1 moa is equal to 10" at 1000 yards

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...646#Post3379646</div></div>

Right on mils, wrong on MOA. 1 MOA is 1.047" at 100 yards and 10.47" at 1000 yards.

ETA: Shooter MOA(SMOA) or IPHY is 1" at 100 and 10" at 1000. That's where confusion with MOA comes in. What is your scope in? Mils are mils.

 

[RobertB]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

Everyone says mil/mil is easier but I still would rather have moa/moa. I have both and maybe just maybe since I started with MOA I have a biased opinion. I just work with MOA better. I have 2-3 mil/moa scopes but they are hunting scopes that I hardly ever take a cap off of. And if I do the reticle could be a duplex as far as I care. Those are not meant for long range shots. And of my dedicated LR rifles all have moa/moa or mil/mil. If I was heading to a comp or something. The moa/moa is what I'm loading up. Likemyself and bunches of others have said. Your doing the same exact thing with either system. Neither are more precise systems, clicks may be but not the system. We use both in surveying and I can alternate between the 2 at the drop of a dime. As long as you get matching turrets and start shooting your allready light years ahead of your self debating which ones and such. One deciding factor for me is if you have some shooting buddies that you will be with alot. See what system they use. Good luck and keep us updated.

 

[RobertB]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

I don't know much about the SMOA but say I don't know which one I have. All my scopes are NF but I'm saying for the people that don;t know. Whats worse case at dialing or shooting at 1000 yds. is it 1/2" Because they are so close. And what maker puts out SMOA scope? Just wondering. WHo has MOA and SMOA and what kindof of trouble do you have?

 

[Graham]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

NF uses actual MOA for the adjustments. The last NF I tested adjusted .2638 per adjustment.

Leupold uses true MOA for the adjustments. That last Leupold I tested was mismarked and broken.

MOA or Mils should not be that big an issue because if you know what you are doing you understand and can use both.

 

[paulL01]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

So......does mil cover up more target area at long range
than moa? And does Vortex use actual moa?

 

[paulL01]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

From what I can tell its not much difference at all.....

 

[Rob01]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobertB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know much about the SMOA but say I don't know which one I have. All my scopes are NF but I'm saying for the people that don;t know. Whats worse case at dialing or shooting at 1000 yds. is it 1/2" Because they are so close. And what maker puts out SMOA scope? Just wondering. WHo has MOA and SMOA and what kindof of trouble do you have?

</div></div>

That's true if you are dialing a small correction when already on target but if you have to dial 35 true MOA to get there and you are in Shooter MOA then you are missing low by about 15" because that's 36.6 Shooter MOA. 35 x 10.47= 366.45 or when divided by 10 for Shooter MOA 36.6 MOA. Those little .047s add up.

You won't have trouble with shooter MOA if you know you have it but that's the thing. People don't.

How much of the target is covered by the reticle has nothing to do with if it's in MOA or Mils but how the reticle is designed. How thick the maker spec'd the lines in the reticle. You can make a 1 MOA thick reticle and it will cover anything or you can make a .025 mil reticle and it won't.

As for the dots themselves covering targets then that again is another design issue. Don't like them then get a hashmark reticle in the system you want.

 

[BillyGoatMachine]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

If it's your first scope then you should go with mil/mil for the simple reason that if you ever decide to get a top tier scope down the line, you will actually be able to find them in stock. I started with moa/moa and love the system. Only problem is I own 3 NF in moa, but am ready to invest in a S&B or a Premier in moa/moa. They are never in stock and not available anywhere. I've been searching the classifieds for 6 months now with no luck. And vendors do not have them in stock. Go with the masses, go mil/mil. I would like to make the switch, but with 3 NF's already that's going to suck donkey balls trying to sell all them and get new ones in mil...

 

[paulL01]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

Awesome thread.

 

[pmclaine]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

The math of the two scope types confused the crap out of me when I strarted looking for what I want.

Ive come to an understanding that math doesnt matter.

My belief is that I will be able to take the shot, use the reticle scale to measure the correction needed, dial or hold the changes, shoot - Bullseye!

Is this correct assuming the scale and turrets match?

Granted its simplistic and doesnt consider how I will make a quick follow on shot at a different range but in that case my ammo will be a factor in that math problem.

 

[The Busby]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

Does MOA take up more of the target ??

MOA and MIL are simply measurments of angles. Consuming the target is "ONLY" an issue when the reticle stadia (lines) are too thick and consume or cover an object intended as the target.

Think back to middle school....remember the proctractor ?

Think of looking at someone who is prone and ready. Now imagine a laser is projecting through the barrel of his rifle and PERFECTLY level and impacting a paper target. A MIL or milliradian is 1 of 3600 degrees or radii. So if the shooter raises the laser's point of impact on the paper 1 MIL, the laser will be impacting 3.6" higher than before.

1 MOA is 1/60th of a degree and there are 360 degrees in a circle, so, 1 MOA is equal to 1/21,600 of a rotation. Which at 100 yards away, is roughly 1" of height on paper. (or 1.047 inches)

 

[tylerw02]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

You're over-thinking it, send-it. If you're referring to reticle thickness, there are different thicknesses for different scopes. Some are thick, some are thin. It has nothing to do with graduations being mRad or MOA.

 

[The Busby]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

I understand the reticle stadia thickness has nothing to do with the measurements......they are seperate issues.

 

[Graham]

Re: MOA or MRAD for first scope?

The overwhelming majority of Leupold M1 turrets that I have tested (and that were marked '1/4 MOA') actually adjust in IPHY.

With a .308, the difference in point of impact on a 1000 yard shot between using MOA and IPHY adjustments is twenty inches.

Even if you limit your effective range to under 500 yards the difference of a 5% error is not to be ignored.