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MOA vs Mil
- Thread starter Dougstdig
- Start date
You are correct, I was aware it wasn't exactly an inch and couldn't remember the actual data. Thanks for clarifying...
I run a Vortex Razor Gen II 4.5-27x in MOA and it works great. I'd switch to MIL if I could find someone that wanted trade though because everyone at PRS matches is running MIL scopes so I'm always the odd ball ??
Bottom line is it really doesnt matter. I prefer mil just because base 10 is more simple to me than fractions. Having said that, I recently purchased a scope for my hunting rifle in moa, only because I like the look of the moa reticle more than the mil reticle in that particular scope. At the end of the day, both are usable. You might have a particular need that gives one the edge over the other. Best case is you learn to use both then these discussions don’t matter. If people would stop trying to equate a linear measurement to an adjustment they would realize how easy it is to use either system. So my suggestion is to focus on that rather than which is best.
Why does it matter if it is MOA or IPHY, you just click the button on the ballistic calculator to be the correct one. It is only a problem if the turrets do not match the reticle.
.1 is a fraction (1/10)
I was having to do mental math for my 1/8 MOA scope when it gave me .625 but if the app displayed it as 5/8 then it would be just as easy to dial to w.e whole number and count 5 past it the same way you would .5 mil (5/10).
If you are doing F Class or Benchrest then you will want to go with 1/8 MOA for the most granularity as well as almost all high power SFP scopes are in 1/8 so you wont typically get a choice.
If you are doing PRS style shooting then it only matters if you are communicating with another human being. If you are, then matching adjustments will remove the need to do a conversion.
Hell, just go with 1/20th MIL (.05 MIL) if you want to do the mental gymnastics for practice. Then you get the best of both worlds. You get to work in fractions and still say you are using MILS.
Because if your scope says it's MOA and it's actually IPHY, then that is wrong.
I also don't use fractions when communicating, I'd say "come up point 2" not 2 tenths.
Hell, just go with 1/20th MIL (.05 MIL) if you want to do the mental gymnastics for practice. Then you get the best of both worlds. You get to work in fractions and still say you are using MILS.
I mean, as long as you write it as a fraction instead of a decimal then "7 3/20" is going to be no different than "7.3" they both tell the shooter to dial to 7 then click 3 times. It is going to take longer to make that adjustment since you will need twice as many clicks to get there but as far as mental gymnastics goes, it isn't a big deal. I suppose counting to 19 is annoying but you could always write it down as "8 -1/20". Don't get me wrong, getting a scope that has IPHY turrets and MOA reticle is no bueno and .1 Mils keeps things simple but I feel like it wouldn't slow me down to use 1/4 MOA if everyone's wind calls and spotter corrections are in MOA. Even if you had MOA/MOA and hung around mil guys, chances are you would get pretty good at converting Mils to MOA.
I personally own a 10-50x SFP 1/8 MOA scope for F Class and a 5-25x FFP .1 Mil scope for practical shooting. And that is what I would advise people to do. I think a lot of people hold on the rings in F Class target and your wind coach is going to know your caliber and MV so they will just say hold left on the 9 or something like that. And we know most PRS shooters use mils so it is going to be simpler to hear someone say, I was holding .4 left for wind and not have to convert it to MOA but it isn't a big deal if you do.
If someone already has a MOA/MOA FFP scope I think telling them to buy a new scope in Mils is bad advice, unless they are looking to upgrade their scope. The people who say "I think in inches so MOA makes sense to me" is wrong because we all know you should be measuring with the reticle.
The OP said "With regard to MOA vs Mil... MOA makes more sense to me" which indicates that he has the mind set of something like:
"I missed 1 plates width off the right edge so I need to hold 1.5 plates left. A plate is 18 inches. Half of 18 inches is 9 inches. 18 + 9 is 27 inches. 27 inches at 600 yards is 27/6, hmm 6 times 5 is 30 so 4.5...yea 4.5 sounds right. Let me dial 4.5 left. Boom, hit"
vs
"Let me just measure that miss with the reticle, mmk 4.5. Hold 4.5 left. Boom hit."
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I feel like this thread could have been finished with 1 reply:
Most PRS shooters use mil scopes (MIL is the same as MRAD) so you are going to have an easier time communicating with other shooters about wind calls and elevation. ex:
If you are hitting high and say your dope is 6.7 Mils and someone else shooting the same caliber says 'That seems like too much, it is 6.4 Mils for me. What is your MV?'. etc
1/4 MOA is going to have slightly more granularity than .1 mils but it is not a big deal, especially on unstable BS that you will be forced to shoot off of. Also, more shooters using MILS means you have a larger base of people to sell your scope to if you want to get out of PRS or if you want to upgrade/side grade to swap to a diff reticle or w.e else reason you have to want a different scope. As far as "I think in inches so MOA makes sense to me" goes, you should be using the reticle to measure the miss and hold the correction. It isn't about inches or meters, if you have MOA or MILS or some other made up bullshit measurement it doesn't matter, measure with reticle and make the correction.
Inches, yards, meters, centimeters etc only come into play when you are ranging the target. AFAIK you don't need to do this often and mirage can fuck with your ability to measure properly but this is a link to the formulas: http://www.arcanamavens.com/LBSFiles/Shooting/Downloads/Ranging/
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Also I don't compete in PRS so don't listen to anything I say.
Yea, it is advertised incorrectly but if the reticle is also IPHY then you just click a button and poof, problem solved.
Just because you say "come up point 2" doesn't mean that "come up one quarter" isn't just as effective...
MOA fractions: .25, .50, .75....................
Some of you people don't even think when you argue
LOL
Some of you people don't even think when you argue
LOL
Just to mess with you guys...
I have a Schuetzen-style Winchester Highwall M1885 (replica) with a Soule tang sight and windage-adjustable globe front-sight (adjust opposite direction). The sight adjustment is IPHY with 1/2" adjustment, no "clicks." You have to consider sight radius in your calculations (32" barrel plus sight offset).
You guys have it easy!
I have a Schuetzen-style Winchester Highwall M1885 (replica) with a Soule tang sight and windage-adjustable globe front-sight (adjust opposite direction). The sight adjustment is IPHY with 1/2" adjustment, no "clicks." You have to consider sight radius in your calculations (32" barrel plus sight offset).
You guys have it easy!
Sounds like you have the secret key to mastering MOA!
Sorry, I couldn’t resist being a smartass
One is not better than the other but, This is why I prefer IPHY -
1. ranging.
Refer to the above post by _Raining and see his link to ranging formulas. My retarded brain has a much easier time ranging targets with the formula:
Distance to the target in yards = size of target in inches/Image size * 100. I can do this math quickly in my head without a calculator. No need to convert target size to yards, no need to multiply something by 27.77 or 25.4 which I cannot do in my head. Multiplying any number * 100 just means you move the decimal 2 places to the right. Try a few examples and you will see how quickly it works.
30 inch target measures 3 moa = 1000yards.
30 inch target measures 5 moa = 600yards.
24 inch target measures 3 moa = 800yards.
Super simple for me, even when rough fractions result for 25, 50, 75 yard increments.
2. wind holds
My formula for wind holds with my 243 is:
wind hold in moa = distance to the target in 100s of yards * wind in MPH/20. Again a formula I can do quickly in my retarded brain without a calculator. I find it simple and fast. Yes, I understand that there is a 4.7% difference between MOA and IPHY but who cares. Wind is continuously variable anyway so I dont sweat the difference in wind calls. I find the above formula works for most magnums as well as the currently popular 6.5, and 6.0 cartridges, and most other "flat-shooting cartridges".
For old school cartridges like 308, 3006, etc., I just use 10 instead of 20 for the denominator in the above equation, which is even easier to do in my head than dividing by20. For the 223 I use a denominator of 8, which is pretty easy as well.
Examples
300 yards with 20mph full value wind = 3*20/20=3moa hold. for a half value wind, 1.5moa.
500 yards, 10mph full value wind = 5*10/20=2.5moa hold. for half value wind, 1.25moa.
I like IPHY for the speed of calculations I can do in my head, especially for wind because its continuously variable and I can recalc quickly with a change. I was originally taught windage/elevation adjustments in MOA with the constant reminder that there is that 4.7% error due to the 0.047 inch difference at 100 yards. Therefore going to IPHY was natural for me because it corrects for that difference.
Obviously experienced mil guys can do their calcs just as quickly but for me, IPHY gets me on target super quick. It works best for me so I use it.
Disclaimer: I am not nor was I ever a sniper or even in the military.
1. ranging.
Refer to the above post by _Raining and see his link to ranging formulas. My retarded brain has a much easier time ranging targets with the formula:
Distance to the target in yards = size of target in inches/Image size * 100. I can do this math quickly in my head without a calculator. No need to convert target size to yards, no need to multiply something by 27.77 or 25.4 which I cannot do in my head. Multiplying any number * 100 just means you move the decimal 2 places to the right. Try a few examples and you will see how quickly it works.
30 inch target measures 3 moa = 1000yards.
30 inch target measures 5 moa = 600yards.
24 inch target measures 3 moa = 800yards.
Super simple for me, even when rough fractions result for 25, 50, 75 yard increments.
2. wind holds
My formula for wind holds with my 243 is:
wind hold in moa = distance to the target in 100s of yards * wind in MPH/20. Again a formula I can do quickly in my retarded brain without a calculator. I find it simple and fast. Yes, I understand that there is a 4.7% difference between MOA and IPHY but who cares. Wind is continuously variable anyway so I dont sweat the difference in wind calls. I find the above formula works for most magnums as well as the currently popular 6.5, and 6.0 cartridges, and most other "flat-shooting cartridges".
For old school cartridges like 308, 3006, etc., I just use 10 instead of 20 for the denominator in the above equation, which is even easier to do in my head than dividing by20. For the 223 I use a denominator of 8, which is pretty easy as well.
Examples
300 yards with 20mph full value wind = 3*20/20=3moa hold. for a half value wind, 1.5moa.
500 yards, 10mph full value wind = 5*10/20=2.5moa hold. for half value wind, 1.25moa.
I like IPHY for the speed of calculations I can do in my head, especially for wind because its continuously variable and I can recalc quickly with a change. I was originally taught windage/elevation adjustments in MOA with the constant reminder that there is that 4.7% error due to the 0.047 inch difference at 100 yards. Therefore going to IPHY was natural for me because it corrects for that difference.
Obviously experienced mil guys can do their calcs just as quickly but for me, IPHY gets me on target super quick. It works best for me so I use it.
Disclaimer: I am not nor was I ever a sniper or even in the military.
@Rookie,
British Method
10MPH wind is your base wind.
1 MOA @ every 100 yards
Wind MPH 2-3 MPH = light, 5MPH = medium
10MPH = base, 20MPH = heavy
Example
Range 600, velocity 10mph = 6 MOA
Range 600, velocity 5 mph = 3 MOA
Range 600, velocity 2-3mph=1.5 MOA
Range 600, velocity 20 mph = 12 MOA
British Method
10MPH wind is your base wind.
1 MOA @ every 100 yards
Wind MPH 2-3 MPH = light, 5MPH = medium
10MPH = base, 20MPH = heavy
Example
Range 600, velocity 10mph = 6 MOA
Range 600, velocity 5 mph = 3 MOA
Range 600, velocity 2-3mph=1.5 MOA
Range 600, velocity 20 mph = 12 MOA
Thanks Frank, to me those type of shortcuts for quick calcs in my head are super handy, which is why I typically finish in the top 20 percent in matches. Like using 2, 5, and 8 moa holds for slow, medium and fast foot patrolling movers.
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I am waiting for the new Vortex AMG in MOF with a EBR-7MOF reticle. It should be debuting at SHOT.
D
Deleted member 113831
Guest
Your ranging formula is wrong. It should be target size (inches) /apparent size (moa) x 95.5.
In your example, your target would be 573 yards rather than 600 yards. But, for your purposes it might be close enough. Depends on distance and application.
Ya, IPHY is X100, True MOA is X95.5
It's one to one with IPHY much like CM with Mils
It's one to one with IPHY much like CM with Mils
D
Deleted member 113831
Guest
So your reticle is IPHY? I guess I didn't understand that part.
Never seen one of those, what kind is it?
USO does an IPHY Reticle,
Not sure the others, you'd have to do two layers of double-checking with an MOA scope, both the turrets and reticle could be very different
It's that extra layer of bullshit with the MOA system, you have to test both turrets and reticles to see what they gave you as it can easily be a coin toss
Not sure the others, you'd have to do two layers of double-checking with an MOA scope, both the turrets and reticle could be very different
It's that extra layer of bullshit with the MOA system, you have to test both turrets and reticles to see what they gave you as it can easily be a coin toss
Debatable, for sure! I think the last USO product I bought was a MR-10 - back in 2011. Don’t have any hands-on experience with any of their optics since then.
I recently switched to MIL across the board except for one hold out MOA scope. For me the math was easier, and operationally it was easier too. Say I take my 224V out to 1,000 yards, that is 8.1mil or 27.71moa. For this illustration let's say you are using a Razor G2 (most scopes are similar in this regard) it has 10 mils per revolution or 25 moa. Or if I have to dial wind, it may be the difference of dialing 2 vs 7 etc. For me these were enough to win out. Being on the same page as others in a competition setting should I ever go that route is just gravy.
I shoot by myself. Used my NF 3.5-15x F1 in MOA for a couple of years, I was able to make my hits on 1MOA steel targets out to 866 yards. I didn’t have to communicate with other shooters, so no worries in that department. Bought an SHV in mils didn’t have trouble adapting. Bought a Kahles in mils and also didn’t have trouble with it. Less turret rev with mils, which I like. All future scopes will be in mils for me.
I’m still waiting on Tactical Thumb/Tactical Thumb scope.
My head is on a swivel for it.
Maybe we can get the snowman reticle?
My head is on a swivel for it.
Maybe we can get the snowman reticle?
A friend with a lot more time behind a rifle than I helped me demystify and simplify the "which is better" argument for me some time ago by reminding me that MOA/MIL (I'm leaving IPHY out of the conversation) values are angular units of measurement, meaning that at consistent magnification to the ranging power of the optic, the 1 MIL or 1 MOA value seen in your reticle stays constant, no matter where your target lies (nearer or further away) within your field of view. In short, an inch value at 300 yards will look different than an inch value at 500 yards when viewed through the same magnification, but 1 MIL or 1 MOA in a reticle will look identical and have the same value relative to your required correction either through a hold, or through your turrets (as long as you are either MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA - or you are really, really good at calculations on the fly between MIL/MOA) as long as you use the same magnification (generally speaking) to range and engage the different targets.
What this allows you to do is take out a step of mental math by removing the awkward calculation every time you engage a target at a known or calculated distance between inches/yards/cm/meters and MIL or MOA.... and then making your adjustments. By receiving information in either MIL or MOA from your spotter or from your prior engagement and using the angular units of measurement built into your reticle, you are able to adjust based on what you are actually seeing. For example, if you are engaging a target at 500 yards and your spotter tells you that you are .5 mil low on the last engagement, then you adjust .5 mil either in your turrets or in a hold - you don't have to care about calculating how many inches/yards/cm/meters that .5 mil actually is, because it DOES NOT MATTER for the purpose of engaging the target in that moment of time. Don't overcomplicate it.
Many people falsely equate MIL to only metric and/or MOA to only imperial measurements - dispel that myth immediately.
As long as you understand the conversion ratio between an angular unit of measurement and a linear distance, you could literally measure target heights and distances to a target in bananas. as long as you know how many bananas equal 1 MIL or 1 MOA at let's say 100 bananas distance, and you have a coefficient to calculate distance from MIL/MOA and banana equivalent, you could calculate everything in bananas, or do the same with inches/yards/cm/meters -whatever makes sense within your context and your needs...the world is your oyster!
Other than that, the only functional difference between MIL and MOA is the relative size of the values related to a constant linear distance, as long as the adjustment increments are identical. For example, you are comparing .5 MIL adjustments and .5 MOA adjustments, 2 clicks of .5 MIL at any distance will be a larger linear distance adjustment value than 2 .5 MOA clicks, at any distance.
TLDR: Like others have said, use what system feels most comfortable for you, if you have that luxury. Having a reticle and adjustment values in the same angular unit of measurement make life much less complicated generally. Try not to think in linear units of measurement when viewing things through an optic and relaying data to shooters or spotters, unless you need a linear measurement value for some purpose. If you like counting to bigger numbers and spinning turrets, go with MOA, if you like counting to smaller numbers and spinning turrets a bit less, go with MIL (generally speaking)
Bottom line is that your needs and your context should drive and inform your choices, and if a system works for you, run with it.
For what it's worth, I prefer MIL/MIL because I am comfortable with it, and I don't want to click away endlessly while dialing wind and elevation and trying to count the number of clicks to a full MIL by ear/remember them at the same time. Remember that turret adjustment values also dictate the number of clicks to make 1 MIL or 1 MOA, but also the relative level of adjustment accuracy as distance increases, as others have mentioned here.
What this allows you to do is take out a step of mental math by removing the awkward calculation every time you engage a target at a known or calculated distance between inches/yards/cm/meters and MIL or MOA.... and then making your adjustments. By receiving information in either MIL or MOA from your spotter or from your prior engagement and using the angular units of measurement built into your reticle, you are able to adjust based on what you are actually seeing. For example, if you are engaging a target at 500 yards and your spotter tells you that you are .5 mil low on the last engagement, then you adjust .5 mil either in your turrets or in a hold - you don't have to care about calculating how many inches/yards/cm/meters that .5 mil actually is, because it DOES NOT MATTER for the purpose of engaging the target in that moment of time. Don't overcomplicate it.
Many people falsely equate MIL to only metric and/or MOA to only imperial measurements - dispel that myth immediately.
As long as you understand the conversion ratio between an angular unit of measurement and a linear distance, you could literally measure target heights and distances to a target in bananas. as long as you know how many bananas equal 1 MIL or 1 MOA at let's say 100 bananas distance, and you have a coefficient to calculate distance from MIL/MOA and banana equivalent, you could calculate everything in bananas, or do the same with inches/yards/cm/meters -whatever makes sense within your context and your needs...the world is your oyster!
Other than that, the only functional difference between MIL and MOA is the relative size of the values related to a constant linear distance, as long as the adjustment increments are identical. For example, you are comparing .5 MIL adjustments and .5 MOA adjustments, 2 clicks of .5 MIL at any distance will be a larger linear distance adjustment value than 2 .5 MOA clicks, at any distance.
TLDR: Like others have said, use what system feels most comfortable for you, if you have that luxury. Having a reticle and adjustment values in the same angular unit of measurement make life much less complicated generally. Try not to think in linear units of measurement when viewing things through an optic and relaying data to shooters or spotters, unless you need a linear measurement value for some purpose. If you like counting to bigger numbers and spinning turrets, go with MOA, if you like counting to smaller numbers and spinning turrets a bit less, go with MIL (generally speaking)
Bottom line is that your needs and your context should drive and inform your choices, and if a system works for you, run with it.
For what it's worth, I prefer MIL/MIL because I am comfortable with it, and I don't want to click away endlessly while dialing wind and elevation and trying to count the number of clicks to a full MIL by ear/remember them at the same time. Remember that turret adjustment values also dictate the number of clicks to make 1 MIL or 1 MOA, but also the relative level of adjustment accuracy as distance increases, as others have mentioned here.
The dog is sleeping on my arm, typing this way sucks lik this thread, oh does it blow ?
I get the two confused
I get the two confused
If you can't operate with just a simple dot or cross hair SFP scope, you'll never be a "Operator As Fuck". Those that can't,... need to stay in the basement an keep playing call of duty while dreaming,... about their safe queens.
I am excited for this to finally get settled, hopefully just in time for the scopes using arcseconds or hexacontade to come out and open it all back up again.
Sounds like some of the shooters here must like the sound of "re-engage", or "shooter, no call".
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