Modern "exotic" rifle, stupid issues

[AIAW]

So, I bought one of the last Remington MSR's that anyone has in stock across the country as I understand it (and have been told). Remington halted production on the MK21 right after they lost the SOCCOM PSR contract. I say lost whereas it was more of a "I give up" sort of situation there. What remained was deployed, the rest sold to parts houses, armories and distributors. Remington Defense didn't even want to hear the name MSR - in fact they transferred me to person that has the job of telling people that they no longer "manufacture, support or distribute any item or service for the MK21 as of this time". I think they "do ammo" now, that's it. Surprising considering the ASR contract hasn't "officially" been awarded. Well, publicly anyhow.

And we thought original AW skins were hard to find...

PITA #1: Barrel extensions. These are like unicorn teeth. Dave Tooley has been kind enough to inform me that he has some left over from his original involvement. He is spinning up a 300NM/338NM barrel(s) for me once he has blanks available.

PITA #2: It has a proprietary mag well, measured it 40 times. I was in disbelief the other 39. The magazines are no where to be found - no where. I have 1, 338LM. It looks identical to a SSSF AWM magazine with a follower insert, except as wide as a AW DSSF and 4.2" long. By the luck of contact, Accurate was the company that designed them specifically for the MSR/PSR. They are going to make me 2 more... whew! It seriously took me 2 days to track this down through various channels.

PITA #3: Fire control. Sure, I'm a fan of the M24 trigger; on a M24. I worked a little magic and got it down to about 4 pounds but that's it. I'm not going to start stoning it or anything like that. I really want a 2-stage trigger anyhow. Luckily out of everything this has been the easiest item to procure. Tom Myers, owner of X-TREME Shooting Products (if it sounds familiar, his company is responsible for the AI Competition Trigger), along with the highly-respected MOD21 and MOD22 triggers originally worked on the PSR solicitation with Remington. He is making a custom MOD22 trigger that will fit this rifle; the second to ever be made, other than the one in his own MK21. Tom is a great guy to talk to also, absolutely packed full of knowledge. I personally think his products are hard to beat.

PITA #4: Barrel changes. Although not a problem, what a true pain in the ass. AI has ruined me with their barrel change system. AI absolutely has the best system in place out of any quick-change system today. The method for the MSR is just cumbersome. This rifle will live it's life as a 300NM and 338NM most likely though. Maybe even just one of those, considering.

PITA #5: Parts. Yeah, the RACS chassis can be had if you really wanted to spend that money to get replacements (stupid expensive). Bolt heads and the firing pin assembly may be an issue. I'm still trying to see if I can track a spare 338LM bolt head and a firing pin assembly down. I don't expect any luck though there. I might make a mold of it or take some detailed measurements in case I ever have to have one custom machined.

I will of course post more about it as the build progresses and get it out in the field. Right now it's just waiting for things to arrive and such. It's not going to be a safe queen... not a big fan of that myself.

 

[Aaros143]

I never expect anything with Remington to be easy. It's funny that I can get better support from a British company than I can an American.

 

[AIAW]

I've been ruined by AINA and Mile High. No joke. They have both been absolutely amazing over the last 15 years or so to me personally. Dealing with Beretta has been painful also. There are really good builders out there that are the same too. I don't want it to sound one-sided. GAP, Surgeon, Stiller, McRee among others also - all good people I've dealt with.

I knew what I was buying into, but I didn't expect it to be that much of a pain in the ass. Big Green is essentially out of the picture. If I need "support", I'll be talking to a machinist pretty much.

 

[Aaros143]

I'm not sure why Remington even tries anymore. They should make hunting rifles and leave the serious work to other people. That being said I wouldn't mind checking out that rifle some time just for curiosity sake. Liked my M24 better than the M2010.

 

[SkyScrapin]

@AIAW youre going to love the CG Xtreme trigger if you haven’t used one already. Quite amazing piece of gear and the only two stage I own these days for my non-AI bolt guns.

 

[AIAW]

@AIAW youre going to love the CG Xtreme trigger if you haven’t used one already. Quite amazing piece of gear and the only two stage I own these days for my non-AI bolt guns.

Yes they are! Absolutely the best 2-stage triggers I have owned. I had one in a McRee/Stiller a while back. The sale was contingent upon that trigger going with the deal.

 

[D_Lamz]

Always like the idea behind and the MSR rifle itself. I'll be following your progress! PS: got a source of original AW skins? LOL

 

[AIAW]

Always like the idea behind and the MSR rifle itself. I'll be following your progress! PS: got a source of original AW skins? LOL

Originals? Sorry to say, good luck there! Victor Company has their ViperSkins for the AW and AWM. Other than that, here in the PX is probably your best bet. Doubtful anyone would sell them at a remotely reasonable price though.

I have "reworked" them before with a heat gun, then lightly re-texture them with sand blasting from a distance. Works "ok"... nothing will give them that factory finish again.

 

[AIAW]

Looks like this AAC QD brake is going to get cut off of the factory barrel too. Small, careful slit right above the barrel threading should relieve the tension. Not that I really care about the factory barrel (only the extension). Worst case, I'll chop it down and turn it into a subsonic tube. Heat, torque, more heat, soaking, more torque... it's not coming off. Gave up at 500 ft/lbs (yes, not kidding).

I can only assume that it's been affixed with Rocksett AND Loctite Red, on top of that I believe it's been nitrided on there. 1st time I've ever encountered a muzzle device this stuck and I have had some crazy ones.

 

[NoLegs24]

It’s a hint that you should buy the AAC Titan-QD can LOL

 

[AIAW]

It’s a hint that you should buy the AAC Titan-QD can LOL

Probably! I thought about going the AAC route back in the day. Liked the TBAC attachment method better. I would like to get a Titan some time soon, no doubt.

 

[AIAW]

Trigger install went as planned. "Thank you" to Tom Myers for working up a MOD22 trigger pack for this platform.

Next step, well Tooley has 2x 30 caliber 1-9" blanks in his queue. Both to be spun up identically in 300NM (abandoning 338NM idea). Finishing around 28" or so.

Big thanks to @DAVETOOLEY and @Frank Green for all of the information, background and original specs, etc. Remington sure as shit isn't going to A) know, and B) provide it to you if they did know.

I have also made the decision to go with a S&B 5-25 with a LRR-MIL reticle. Yep, I'll have to purchase glass for this as I have exhausted my available optics stash. I was debating on a MSR2, but in-stock is what in-stock is and I am rather curious to use the LRR-MIL. I have an original MSR that I am very pleased with though. I lives on a dedicated 338LM.

Outside of this I just need brass. Holding out for Peterson or Lapua... sadly I might have to settle on Norma if stock doesn't turn around soon.

 

[schmi015]

Curious to hear your thoughts on the LRR-Mil

 

[AIAW]

Curious to hear your thoughts on the LRR-Mil

Oh yes, looking forward to it. I talked to Jason at EuroOptic as he tested one a while back in a 5-25x. He says that the aimpoint definitely takes some getting used to. I like the central area layout with .1 hashes out from the aimpoint - and they did it without making it busy also. Curious as to what the aimpoint will look like to the naked eye at 15x - 20x. I've seen drawings and photos of it, but that never truly replicates what you "see". I might put it on one of my 338's just to try it out, but from what I feel I really want the LRR-MIL to sit on this MSR in the end.

 

[patriot07]

I'm not sure why Remington even tries anymore. They should make hunting rifles and leave the serious work to other people. That being said I wouldn't mind checking out that rifle some time just for curiosity sake. Liked my M24 better than the M2010.

Agreed. You kind of have to figure out the market you're trying to cater to - the low-cost, medium-performance, entry-level stuff, or the other end of the spectrum, or the group in between. But it's like they don't want to get serious about performance to compete at the mid/high end and don't want to make a low-cost model for the low-end, so it just ends up leaving everyone out in the cold. Or at least that's kind of my perception of the outcome of a lot of their last decade of products.

 

[schmi015]

Agreed. You kind of have to figure out the market you're trying to cater to - the low-cost, medium-performance, entry-level stuff, or the other end of the spectrum, or the group in between. But it's like they don't want to get serious about performance to compete at the mid/high end and don't want to make a low-cost model for the low-end, so it just ends up leaving everyone out in the cold. Or at least that's kind of my perception of the outcome of a lot of their last decade of products.

Well Remington built this to chase the PSR solicitation for the US ARMY which they won. They then made some(much speculation about this) bad decisions such as switching to an in house barrel and dumping the bartlein barrels that won them the contract. When the test lots didn't meet the accuracy spec, the contract was canceled.

 

[patriot07]

Well Remington built this to chase the PSR solicitation for the US ARMY which they won. They then made some(much speculation about this) bad decisions such as switching to an in house barrel and dumping the bartlein barrels that won them the contract. When the test lots didn't meet the accuracy spec, the contract was canceled.

Lots of good info I didn’t even know. Sounds a lot like modern Rem management though. Cut quality and performance to save cost.

 

[bourbonbent]

I have nothing constructive to add, other than I’m enjoying the el fuckerino out of this post, and learning stuff. Real cool project.

 

[patriot07]

I have nothing constructive to add, other than I’m enjoying the el fuckerino out of this post, and learning stuff. Real cool project.

Agreed. I derailed with my thoughts on Remington. The work the OP has put into this and the end result is awesome!

 

[Steel head]

Well Remington built this to chase the PSR solicitation for the US ARMY which they won. They then made some(much speculation about this) bad decisions such as switching to an in house barrel and dumping the bartlein barrels that won them the contract. When the test lots didn't meet the accuracy spec, the contract was canceled.

Textbook Remington.

I remember reading that info the first time and just shaking my head.

Kudos to the army for telling them to piss off.

 

[AIAW]

Well, it has glass on it now. Thanks @jb1000br as usual for taking my money and in return sending me this S&B 5-25x LRR-MIL. Just checking out the reticle here in the house prone behind the rifle I can feel that it's a perfect match for the intended usage. I'm liking it before even sending a shot with it so that's a good sign. We will see how it holds up in vegetation.

That's a Spuhr SP-4302 that it is mounted in. It's a damn shame these (still) come with Butler Creek caps. As soon as (by that I mean the exact minute I get the notification e-mail) Tenebraex caps are back in stock it will be getting a set just like all of my others.

 

[jmar]

Despite the shortcomings of the MSR I have always thought it was an interesting and aesthetically pleasing rifle, something I'd like to own one day. One of my biggest gripes about the gun industry is how when they stop making a rifle they just halt all parts production entirely. I would really respect any company that continues making parts for their loyal customers a decade or more after the cease production of it. Your mention of AW skins couldn't be more perfect, I actually could use AW skins on my gun I recently bought, they are in okay shape but originally black and painted with a thick Cerakote or something. I would love to buy a set of fresh OD skins for it. AI if you are listening it's basically free money.

 

[AIAW]

Despite the shortcomings of the MSR I have always thought it was an interesting and aesthetically pleasing rifle, something I'd like to own one day. One of my biggest gripes about the gun industry is how when they stop making a rifle they just halt all parts production entirely. I would really respect any company that continues making parts for their loyal customers a decade or more after the cease production of it. Your mention of AW skins couldn't be more perfect, I actually could use AW skins on my gun I recently bought, they are in okay shape but originally black and painted with a thick Cerakote or something. I would love to buy a set of fresh OD skins for it. AI if you are listening it's basically free money.

True, just remember that shitty people messed up the MSR, not the engineering. Outside of the barrels that Remingtons started making on-house, it's a beautifully engineering and designed rifle.

I hear you on the AW skins!

 

[AIAW]

All is well and getting very solid results. I'll cover what has been done.

Received the barrels from Mr. Tooley. Top-notch work, just as expected.

After installing one of the barrels, I noticed some random difficult bolt closing utilizing the same piece of brass while performing some measurements. Felt the same (randomly) with both an unfired piece of Lapua and Norma - my only pieces of those. Noticing extreme notching on two faces of the rim (and a brass particle covered bolt-head) I could tell that the extractor was going to need some work. Simple procedure: Knock roll pin out for extractor, stone a 45 degree angle on each side of the extractor, debur where applicable. Keeps the extractor from grabbing the rim and trying to rotate the entire cartridge in the chamber.

Before - 15 chamberings:

After - 15 chamberings:

Process is simple and problem solved. Same as any other M16-style extractor. Used a random extra-fine sharpening stone that I had around. I am really surprised here, because this would have been a small problem for a fielded rifle. Not a stoppage, but significant force was required to go into battery.

I originally though that perhaps this Peterson brass was out of spec on the rim, but turns out it's not. At least not enough to matter. (It's thinner by about 0.015" if I remember). More on this Peterson 300NM brass debacle...

So I knew that Peterson version 1 300NM brass was slightly out of spec at the web and in headspace. I didn't quite think it would be such a problem so I didn't initially go through my typical fire forming process, but it turns out that it was. Performed some H2O measurements and plugged a few numbers into QuickLoad. I loaded up a few rounds and headed to the range. 225g ELD-M, .010 off the lands, 85g of Retumbo. New brass is about .020" short in headspace (verified with a fire-formed case). Firing these resulted in massacred primer pockets, and obviously the bolt face took the entire slam force of these few rounds that I fired. Unfortunately I didn't photograph those cases as it was about 105 degrees that day and I had a lot going on. I did not fire the rest that I had loaded and pulled them down.

Back at the reloading bench, I decided to reduce the charge to 82.5g of Retumbo, but seat into the lands .020" in order to press the case head firmly against the bolt face to blow the shoulder forward. Fired these and all went well and as expected. What's surprising is that these were stupid accurate. 2960 FPS, SD of 9 and three consecutive hits on a 18x18" plate at 1 mile... yes 1760 yards. Did not expect that while fire forming, and jammed.

Now that I have some correctly fire formed brass, time to start load development. What has typically worked for me is to simply measure the capacity difference between unformed and formed brass, adjust the charge slightly up from 82.5g and roll with that charge weight. I'll play around with seating depth from there. Those fire forming loads were absolute lasers so I feel not having wasted a little barrel life after all.

A few pictures of the finalized rig.

 

[AIAW]

So after running some numbers and calculations this week in QuickLoad and judging by the case capacity differences between formed and unformed brass, 83.5g to 84g of Retumbo is going to be the ticket for 225g ELD-M's out of this barrel.

Will test with -0.020, -0.010 and uncle touchy seating depths this weekend. I'm not opposed to jamming +0.020 - like I said before, those were absolute winners while fire-forming... all other variables aside.

 

[AIAW]

Turns out 84.5g yielded the best results with Retumbo on these 225 ELD-M’s. 3015 fps average, SD of 6. Seated .010” off. .005 and touching yielded very similar results, slight fps increase and slightly pronounced ejector marking. Nothing alarming.

Very little difference between fired Lapua and fired Peterson (new Peterson is a PITA as noted above - must be fire-formed at a reduced charge/jammed). No appreciable difference between CCI 250’s and Federal 215M’s noticed.

Extremely repeatable out to 1 mile.

I need to work up a H1000 load next.

 

[BEJ762]

Great thread and really enjoy what you did with that rifle. Also, big fan of the 300NM and glad to see you are having positive results. I converted a older pre-14 AIAX I had collecting dust to 300NM with a LRI barrel. Easily my favorite ELR rig at the moment.

Side topic - what pack are you using in the pictures? MR Blackjack 50? If so, how are you liking it?

 

[AIAW]

Great thread and really enjoy what you did with that rifle. Also, big fan of the 300NM and glad to see you are having positive results. I converted a older pre-14 AIAX I had collecting dust to 300NM with a LRI barrel. Easily my favorite ELR rig at the moment.

Side topic - what pack are you using in the pictures? MR Blackjack 50? If so, how are you liking it?

Thanks! I try to do it right. Spoke to a lot of resources that worked on the original PSR submission to make it an "original" and not that junk that Remington spat out towards the end of their contract. Minus the trigger it's "the real deal" (I have the M24 trigger pack still of course) - down to the IR-mitigating Cerakote.

That is indeed a Mystery Ranch Blackjack 50. A little overkill for a square range session, but I like it. Distributes weight very well with the adjustable MLF. I have a 3-day and a Overload that I really like as well, but if I had to pick one "all-around" pack it would be the Blackjack 50. I do wish it had a wishbone zipper into the pack instead of the drawstring, and also molle on the top of the lid, but not a deal-breaker.

 

[BEJ762]

Thanks! I try to do it right. Spoke to a lot of resources that worked on the original PSR submission to make it an "original" and not that junk that Remington spat out towards the end of their contract. Minus the trigger it's "the real deal" (I have the M24 trigger pack still of course) - down to the IR-mitigating Cerakote.

That is indeed a Mystery Ranch Blackjack 50. A little overkill for a square range session, but I like it. Distributes weight very well with the adjustable MLF. I have a 3-day and a Overload that I really like as well, but if I had to pick one "all-around" pack it would be the Blackjack 50. I do wish it had a wishbone zipper into the pack instead of the drawstring, and also molle on the top of the lid, but not a deal-breaker.

View attachment 7144721

Nice set up. I too have 3Day and overload but have been eyeballing that pack. My other problem besides rifles.

Ya, you definitely did it right in my book. I wouldn't sweat the trigger. I thought Tom did supply triggers for that rifle in addition to the MK13s and MK15s. Either way, I would have gone the same route. Have those in all my non-AI rifles.

 

[AIAW]

Curious to hear your thoughts on the LRR-Mil

After some time with it now I have to say that I'm a fan - but it has a clear, defined purpose for sure. Being one of the thinnest reticles on the market, I find it difficult to use below 12x (granted on this platform I wouldn't find myself at 12x hardly ever - which of course went into the reasoning for using it on this rifle/caliber). I've personally coined the LRR-MIL as the "desert reticle", because that's really where it shines.

The LRR-MIL scopes feature a "day-time illumination" that is plenty visible in blaring sunlight. In fact, it's a little much at full brightness (8 or 9 is a good selection generally). Vegetation or any dark background and you will be switching on the illumination, no doubt.

It's really pleasing to be able to hold center on a 8-inch gong at 1760 yards and it not be entirely covered by reticle. It's rare with the wind and terrain where I mainly shoot, but there have been a few dead holds and I could still see plenty outside of the aim-point.

If you want one of the ultimate ELR reticles, this is definitely it. It makes a P4F or MSR reticle look ridiculously thick.

 

[schmi015]

How is your msr doing?

 

[BuLLet]

Hopefully well. I picked up the kit from EuroOptic a few months ago. 5 mags in each caliber Haven't taken it out to try it yet. Thanks for all the ground work!

 

[AIAW]

How is your msr doing?

Been doing great actually. I've got a decent round count down one of the Bartlein/Tooley barrels and it is still an absolute laser. 1760 yards is as far as I have stretched it out, but my last outing with it yielded 3 consecutive hits out of 5 sent on a 18" steel gong at that distance. 100/200 yard groupings are generally 1/4 MOA. The 225g ELD-M shoots so damn good out to 1 mile with both Retumbo and H1000 that I have barely even experimented with other projectiles - which goes without saying not even enough to work up a decent recipe on anything non-ELD-M.

I haven't discovered any real caveats or gotchas with the platform so to speak. Cycling is smooth, can't recall any feed issues so far. Rarely I would have a spent case flip back onto the follower but that was solved with a little file work on the extractor.

Since I run this as a dedicated 300NM, I can't comment on barrel change consistency. That barrel will only come off when it's shot-out, and an identical one will take it's place.

 

[Dm6]

Sorry if this was already covered but does the msr take 700 pattern triggers or is the m24 trigger a different pattern?

 

[AIAW]

Sorry if this was already covered but does the msr take 700 pattern triggers or is the m24 trigger a different pattern?

Same pattern, but the safety lever is modified specifically for the MSR (it's much taller).

 

[BurtGummer]

I'm not sure why Remington even tries anymore. They should make hunting rifles and leave the serious work to other people. That being said I wouldn't mind checking out that rifle some time just for curiosity sake. Liked my M24 better than the M2010.

Lol bergera and tikka have taken their hunting business

 

[Werk125]

There are a few threads on the PSR/MSR, but this seems to be the best to post this on… I’m not sure how many of these are floating around out there / who may be looking to upgrade their factory barrels, but Marc from Spartan Rifles just finished swapping them out on my rifle. He also saved the CNC programs (based on my extensions + the 308, mag, and Lapua bolt heads) to make it easy to chamber new barrels going forward.

Assuming big green held everything to a reasonable tolerance, this means we’re looking at an option for MSR prefit barrels. If anyone has experience with the consistency (tolerances) between these actions, bolt heads, and extensions it’d be good to hear.

Marc also machined / is sending me a tool to remove and attach the barrel extensions (see picture). Pretty solid knowing that finding extra extensions is like finding a unicorn. He is also considering cloning the extensions, if there is enough interest.

 

[8208]

There are a few threads on the PSR/MSR, but this seems to be the best to post this on… I’m not sure how many of these are floating around out there / who may be looking to upgrade their factory barrels, but Marc from Spartan Rifles just finished swapping them out on my rifle. He also saved the CNC programs (based on my extensions + the 308, mag, and Lapua bolt heads) to make it easy to chamber new barrels going forward.

Assuming big green held everything to a reasonable tolerance, this means we’re looking at an option for MSR prefit barrels. If anyone has experience with the consistency (tolerances) between these actions, bolt heads, and extensions it’d be good to hear.

Marc also machined / is sending me a tool to remove and attach the barrel extensions (see picture). Pretty solid knowing that finding extra extensions is like finding a unicorn. He is also considering cloning the extensions, if there is enough interest.

View attachment 7718820

I would be highly interested in the extensions and or bolt heads.

 

[Werk125]

I would be highly interested in the extensions and or bolt heads.

If a few other guys jump in with us it might be enough to make it worthwhile.

Bolt heads would be solid too - I’ll ask.

 

[8208]

I might have another guy

 

[RemCustom6]

I realize this is an older thread, but did anything ever come of possible barrel extensions being produced? I would definitely be interested.

Thanks!

 

[Werk125]

It may happen (along with bolt heads). Marc has the CNC machine he would need to make these inbound, ETA is mid July. I offered up my extensions and bolt heads to be scanned. I’ll keep everyone posted.

Drop him a note / let him know you’re interested if you haven’t already. Apparently there have been several who have reached out, so there is some demand: [email protected]

 

[TrickyPig]

Frankenstein screams: REVIVE THE THREAAAAAAAADD!!! ITTT'SSS ALLLIIIVVEEE!!!

Ahem. Ok. So, Anyone have leads on compatible arca rails? The ones I have don't fit this rail, as the ones I have have bumps to index into the rails, on mlok or such, between the screws, and so do not fit on this rifle.