Modified Cases Are Dumb. Change my mind.

[nn8734]

Time after time, people are congregating around this idea they need to use the Hornady OAL tool and then struggle to find a modified case.
Why is nobody using the Sinclair overall length tool?
It’s a one time purchase and will work with any caliber out there.

I have and use both. If i happen to have a modified case for whatever cartridge im working with at the time, I use the Hornady tool otherwise ill use the Sinclair tool. Also anyone can make a “modified case” with some basic tools.

Ultimately it doesnt matter who uses what as long as it works for them. No need to spend time worrying about it.

 

[Steel head]

It's not magic, it's sorcery.

Like most of the painted up, almost old enough to be wimmins in the MPT.

What you see probably isn't what you get.

 

[1moaoff]

Regardless if they’ll make a case for a small fee, then you’re waiting a week or whatever.
I can grab a rifle, the OAL tool, a case, and a bullet and have my answer in ten minutes.

You could make your own in that time and have one also... soooo???

 

[1moaoff]

Hornady will also make them for you for $15

I make my own for basically free and faster than packing 1 to ship or even walking to mailbox

 

[jinxx4ever]

I make my own for basically free and faster than packing 1 to ship or even walking to mailbox

thanks, i'm going to give it a try tomorrow if i can find that correct tap in town

 

[1moaoff]

Why anyone doesnt use this method makes zero sense to me. But different strokes for different folks - we all over complicate this hobby to some degree.

I like that but I don't pull barrels just for it

 

[Snuby642]

Let us know where you find a tap.

 

[roostercogburn98]

I ordered mine from amazon if I remember right.

 

[Maxduty]

Where do you get a 5/16 x 36 tap?

Not every cartridge is for a bolt gun.

Not every bullet can be loaded to magazine length. The tangent ogive is a good example.

Amazon. Drill bit included for less than 20 bucks.

Amazon.com

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

You could make your own in that time and have one also... soooo???

Sooo……..I’m still faster. And time is money.

 

[Snuby642]

Amazon. Drill bit included for less than 20 bucks.

Amazon.com

Thanks. I got discouraged last time I tried to find it. Lots of places advertised it but none in stock.

That xf thread is not popular, but considering the thickness of a case head I can understand why they used it.

As soon as my wife with the prime account comes home from rifle league awards dinner it will go on order tonight.

This way I can use my fire formed brass to he more accurate and have less jiggle.

I just had some 308 165g sgk rounds give hard bolt lift. Maybe not enough clearance from ogive since it's 0.050 thousands forward from a 168 smk.

I thought I had 0.010 clearance.
A standard hornady case could be at least half that tolerance easily.

Rounds were up to max according to Sierra but less than hodgdon.

 

[NewsShooter]

Here's a vid showing three way, the threadlocker was a new one for me.

 

[1moaoff]

McMaster Carr
Msc

 

[Im2bent]

What da fuk are you poors going on about?

Precision Mic | RCBS

RCBS Precision Mics determine chamber headspace and bullet seat depth by measuring from the datum point on the case shoulder to the base of the case.

www.rcbs.com

 

[buggz]

Frustrated with RCBS Precision Mics.......

So have to vent a bit about the RCBS Precision Mics. Turns out they are anything but precision! I purchased 3 different versions and measured them against some known dimensions on Forster Go, NoGo, and Field gauges. Turns out one of them was off by -.003", the other -.0015", and the last...

www.snipershide.com

 

[flyfisher117]

2 pages in and still not sure whos weeny is bigger...

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

Frustrated with RCBS Precision Mics.......

So have to vent a bit about the RCBS Precision Mics. Turns out they are anything but precision! I purchased 3 different versions and measured them against some known dimensions on Forster Go, NoGo, and Field gauges. Turns out one of them was off by -.003", the other -.0015", and the last...

www.snipershide.com

That thread is only twelve years old. Maybe they’ve gotten better?

 

[tylerw02]

Where the lands are is a moving target, therefore I'm not overly concerned with where they are.

I start at magazine length and work my way shorter until I find a node. I keep working shorter until I find where that nodes ends. Once I do that, I continue to load at the longest COAL of the node. If the gun quits shooting at some point, I repeat the process.

I don't care where the lands are providing I can load a round into the chamber and extract it without the bullet getting stuck into the lands. This is one of those situations of "keep it simple stupid".

 

[Criver600]

Sinclair's tools are excellent, the bullet depth seating tool works. Polish the bullet with 0000 steel wool and have at it.

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

Sinclair's tools are excellent, the bullet depth seating tool works. Polish the bullet with 0000 steel wool and have at it.

What is the purpose of polishing the bullet?

 

[Criver600]

What is the purpose of polishing the bullet?

Helps you see the rifling land marks

 

[Snuby642]

Will have to try that.
Been using markers with limmited success.

Hopefully my tap shows up today and I can take some of the play out of the system with a fire formed case.

 

[Sheldon N]

I use both Wheeler method and Hornady OAL tool for different calibers. I find the OAL tool is faster/easier than Wheeler method. They give different results though. With Hornady tool I only ever bother to get the "hard jam" number... shove the bullet in as far as it will go, lock down the tool, knock the bullet out of the barrel with a cleaning rod, then measure. With Wheeler you get the "touch" number where bullet no longer contacts the lands at all. The two results are about 10 thou apart, so I'll start at hard jam + 25-30 thou, or Wheeler plus 15 thou.

Honestly though, these days I'm just jumping like 60 thou and ignoring it. I'll check on a brand new barrel, then maybe every 1k rounds thereafter just out of curiosity about throat erosion.

 

[spife7980]

I find my touch measurement using the wheeler and know that just for knowing that. From then on I let testing dictate what I jump from.

I haven’t bothered measuring a barrel/bullet combo the initial for awhile now so I don’t really know my erosion rates. But every few hundred through the barrel at the start of each case loading cycle I do a little test to see if I need to adjust it out a smidge or stay put.

 

[Snuby642]

Amazon. Drill bit included for less than 20 bucks.

Amazon.com

Many thanks to @Maxduty .
I had looked high and low for someone that had this in stock.

 

[Im2bent]

I use the RCBS precision mics as a relative measurement and use them to get a reference point as far as base to shoulder and base to ogive so its a non issue for me if they did not match Hornadys headspace gauges. And lets not even start the tolerance game. Yes they are supposed to be at Saami minimum at zero and in theory you can use them to see if your chamber is within saami specs but is anyone going to use these for that?

 

[Yondering]

Seems like a lot of fuss about different tools, for an extremely simple problem. The only "tool" you need is a cleaning rod with a stop on it, and a caliper.

Rod down the muzzle with the bolt closed, set the stop against the muzzle. Then load a bullet long, chamber that round, and use a rubber band to hold the bolt closed enough to push the bullet gently into the lands. Cleaning rod down the muzzle again, measure between stop and muzzle; done.

It doesn't get any easier than that; no special cases needed, no time wasted incrementally seating bullets deeper, etc.

 

[spife7980]

Seems like a lot of fuss about different tools, for an extremely simple problem. The only "tool" you need is a cleaning rod with a stop on it, and a caliper.

Rod down the muzzle with the bolt closed, set the stop against the muzzle. Then load a bullet long, chamber that round, and use a rubber band to hold the bolt closed enough to push the bullet gently into the lands. Cleaning rod down the muzzle again, measure between stop and muzzle; done.

It doesn't get any easier than that; no special cases needed, no time wasted incrementally seating bullets deeper, etc.

Yeah just arbitrary amounts of jam as a result

 

[Yondering]

Yeah just arbitrary amounts of jam as a result

No, not at all. Unless you’re completely incompetent I guess.

The goal is to have the bullet very gently resting against the lands. It’s not that hard. You don’t just ram the bolt forward or something dumb like that.

You don’t close the bolt with this method. The round is loaded way too long to fully chamber, and is just holding the bullet against the lands. You could use some other method of holding the bullet in place, but this is easiest.

 

[zeroz]

The load long, rubber band, rod stop method is always within a few thou, so yeah it arbitrary. I do 3-4, average the number and call that the lands. I'll write what gun on the bullet and put it in the BTO box if I want to measure throat erosion later. Easy, quick and accurate enough for me.

 

[Winny94]

The number you measure may not be arbitrary, but the amount you're jamming that into the lands to get that number is unkown.

 

[beetroot]

The wheeler method works pretty well but my preferred method is.
Partically size a fired case so that there is just enough neck tension to hold a projectile in place, yet can still slide in and out with some force.
Chamber the "cartridge" and the lands will seat the bullet deeper into the case.
Carefully extract the cartridge and can measure COAL or CBTO.

Usually do it a few times and can get a fairly repeatable reading, and as Erik Cortinas video says the exact measurement doesn't actually matter.

 

[Yondering]

The number you measure may not be arbitrary, but the amount you're jamming that into the lands to get that number is unkown.

Horse crap.
It's precisely known by using the same method every time on a particular rifle, which gives the same contact with the lands regardless of bullet. You may not know if you're pushing the bullet in .0005" or .002", but it's repeatable and a lot closer than some of the other methods suggested here (like seating deeper until it chambers, for example).

Engraving force is one of the big influences on ignition, so providing the same repeatable force against the lands to measure a bullet makes perfect sense.

 

[zeroz]

I suppose it isn't known. That said if there aren't big fucking gouges on the bullet when I pull it out and it isn't stuck in there, I aint jamming much. Thou or two don't matter for where I am at. I back off anyway and don't develop any loads jammed so does it matter if I'm a thou or two off? I cant shoot that difference for damn sure.

 

[Winny94]

You may not know if you're pushing the bullet in .0005" or .002", but it's repeatable

Thats exactly what I said - you have no idea how much is jamming when you do that.

 

[beetroot]

Thats exactly what I said - you have no idea how much is jamming when you do that.

Yeah but it's accurately inaccurate

 

[whatsupdoc]

I use the hornady tool and gravity to determine the the contact point.
Install bullet in modified case, insert case in chamber, rotate tool a few times to make sure
case is bottomed out in camber.

Place barrel end on floor loosen thumbscrew and allow plastic rod to slowly rest on bullet base. lock screw done.

 

[Yondering]

Thats exactly what I said - you have no idea how much is jamming when you do that.

Meanwhile sizing the bullet deeper in steps until it chambers is perfectly acceptable. Right.

You can lead a horse to water…

 

[Winny94]

Meanwhile sizing the bullet deeper in steps until it chambers is perfectly acceptable. Right.

You can lead a horse to water…

Well, youd know how much you're actually jamming a bullet. But I understand, time spent not finding the actual distance to the lands can be used to argue and judge random strangers online who dont agree with you. Good decision

 

[zeroz]

SMH

 

[Yondering]

Well, youd know how much you're actually jamming a bullet. But I understand, time spent not finding the actual distance to the lands can be used to argue and judge random strangers online who dont agree with you. Good decision

You haven’t thought that through very well.
It’s hard to fathom how dumb your comment is.

 

[chutinlead]

I used a fired case from my chamber, take the lock ring off my die, gently put the case in the die, stuff it in a 7/8 5C collet in a lathe and drill/tap. It should be a 5 minute process for your local gunsmith to do if he has a clue.

 

[Winny94]

You haven’t thought that through very well.
It’s hard to fathom how dumb your comment is.

With all that time you save doing your superior methods, you should have plenty of time to reflect on my comment and get to a point of fathom-ness then. Let us know when it clicks for you!

 

[tsu45]

Why anyone doesnt use this method makes zero sense to me. But different strokes for different folks - we all over complicate this hobby to some degree.

That only gives you touch from the shoulder to the lands unless you can size your brass to absolute zero headspace or crush. I still think the Wheeler method is the most accurate and easiest. We’re admittedly starting to split hairs on a few thou of shoulder setback though.

A part of which system works best for individual guns comes down to what action your measuring in. Using wheeler, all I do is quarter screw the firing pin assembly out of the tl3s and put one layer of scotch tape over the bottom of the pin that holds the firing pin to the bolt and get straight to finding exact CTBO. Whole process might take 5min if I can find the tape easily. That to me is easier than pulling the barrel off, part of which is that I hate barrel grease lol. If I had actions that were more difficult to pull the cocking assembly out of it may change my mind.

 

[Aftermath]

Does a thousandth or 2 matter? I leave you to decide.

 

[Yondering]

Does a thousandth or 2 matter? I leave you to decide.View attachment 7724528View attachment 7724527

Does it matter if the measurements you recorded are all based on a zero number that’s exactly at the lands, or maybe .001” engraved? No, because you’ve tested to find the best load anyway, and as long as measurement is repeatable, that’s all that matters.

The exception would be if you’re trying to seat bullets right at the lands, but I’d have thought most of us knew it to do that anyway; either crush or jump a little bit for consistency.

 

[E. Bryant]

Does a thousandth or 2 matter? I leave you to decide.View attachment 7724528View attachment 7724527

If your rifle is actually that sensitive to jump (as opposed to those groups being the outcome of other uncontrolled variables), you're gonna have a lot of fun as the throat erodes. I'd be looking for a new load ASAP.

 

[LR1845]

Does a thousandth or 2 matter? I leave you to decide.View attachment 7724528View attachment 7724527

I’ll ask you the same question…

does a thousandth or 2 matter?
I leave YOU to decide

 

[JMGlasgow]

 

[Lew Hodge]

I've used the 5/16"X36 TPI for this operation, an extra fine thread. I haven't heard of using a 10X1.0MM for this. Depending on how much jump you have, the bullet configuation you select will determine the coal length to hit the lands, or back off what you want. Berger, with their long taper is often not able to hit anywhere near the lands, without having no bullet left in the neck. It may also not fit your magazine either. I have switched to Sierra instead of Berger in a 22-250 that was chambered by JD Jones. It is 1 turn in 7 and supposed to have a throat of the proper length to accept long bullets. I was unhappy with the throat length, but I was stuck with it. Bergers were up to 1/8" off lands when seated 1/8" into the neck, while with Sierra Matchkings, the coal was shorter, had about 1/8" for seating and was .020" off lands. Try "Drills and Cutters" website for taps, dies and correct drills.