Monolithic bullets and accuracy

[Neil McCauley]

First time post, long time lurker. Ran a search and couldn't find anything that "popped" out for my issue.

A buddy and I are trapped in commifornia and cannot escape the requirements to use lead free projectiles. We are both savy handloaders and load for precision on a myrid of calibers. My go to hunting rifle is a 270 winchester and he is currently running the 6.5 cm.

The issue we are having is we cannot get his 6.5 cm to run the monolithic bullets and get any sort of accuracy. My ole deer rifle is getting just about 3/4 moa using the Barnes 129 LRX (fine for my hunting accuracy). His CM cannot even come close to 1 moa.

Currently we've ran close to if not over 400 rounds of different monolithic bullets and cannot get them to group. We've ran ladder tests and found nodes, we've changed seating depths. Varied the powder types. We are currently kinda stuck and about to change bullets again.
The bullets we've tried for the 6.5 are:
Barnes 127 LRX
Hornady 120 gmx
Hornady 140 GMX (horrible by the way)

We know it's not the rifle or the setup as we can throw factory 143gr eld ammo through it ant it prints a 5 shot group at about 1/3 - 1/2 moa.

If you have any experience running a monolithic hunting bullet or have an idea what to try please help.

(pic is the very best we have and cannot get it to repeatedly shoot that accurately.)

 

[Silverjay]

I have run the 127LRX in a 6.5 Creedmoor with good results. It was not difficult to get it under 1/2” with 4350.

 

[Neil McCauley]

Thanks, unfortunately We could not get the 4350 to work...

 

[MarinePMI]

What twist on the CM barrel. Solids are much longer for weight than regular lead core bullets.

 

[Neil McCauley]

What twist on the CM barrel. Solids are much longer for weight than regular lead core bullets.

The barrel twist is a 1/8"

Should be able to stabilize but you might be on to something... It stabilizes the 143gr eld bullets just fine. It definitely does not like the 140 gr GMX. So this is plausible...

 

[Bandit31]

You’re stable enough with the 8 twist. All I use is the 127Lrx and have loaded them for six different creedmoors. I haven’t had an 8 twist in several years and won’t go back but I don’t recall there being any issues.

What powders have you used and how much are you jumping the LRX?

 

[Tchitcherine]

Hammer Hunter bullets are on the CA approved non-lead list, maybe try those. I am using their 7mm, have not used the 6.5s.

 

[Neil McCauley]

You’re stable enough with the 8 twist. All I use is the 127Lrx and have loaded them for six different creedmoors. I haven’t had an 8 twist in several years and won’t go back but I don’t recall there being any issues.

What powders have you used and how much are you jumping the LRX?

Powders:
IMR 4350
H 4350
RL 22
RL 17
RL 15
Varget

Jump was anything between 0.50 and 0.120 off the lands, although most of the initial group tests were around 70 off...

 

[Neil McCauley]

Hammer Hunter bullets are on the CA approved non-lead list, maybe try those. I am using their 7mm, have not used the 6.5s.

May have to look into this. Thanks

 

[MarinePMI]

FWIW, when I used to run Barnes bullets (quite a few years ago, so they were the original "O" bullets)), I remember that they really liked to be run hard. The faster, the better the accuracy got.

 

[Neil McCauley]

FWIW, when I used to run Barnes bullets (quite a few years ago, so they were the original "O" bullets)), I remember that they really liked to be run hard. The faster, the better the accuracy got.

We may have to revisit this and find a high pressure node. We were having difficulty with the bolt shroud and punched primers at the higher pressures. (Bergara defect)

 

[Bandit31]

Powders:
IMR 4350
H 4350
RL 22
RL 17
RL 15
Varget

Jump was anything between 0.50 and 0.120 off the lands, although most of the initial group tests were around 70 off...

You could try less jump. I think I’m only jumping .020- .030” with the LRX and RL16 in one of my creedmoors now.

 

[Neil McCauley]

You could try less jump. I think I’m only jumping .020- .030” with the LRX and RL16 in one of my creedmoors now.

We have thought of that... Perhaps revisit a shorter jump may prove effective...

 

[Silverjay]

I am running 0.020” jump also and running them harder.

 

[Neil McCauley]

Looks like I have a couple things to try.

Shorter jump and hotter load. Perhaps there is a node up on the higher side of pressures...

Thank you all for posting I will update this if I can wotk up a lod that is repeatedly sub moa.

 

[DangerRanger]

I have had good initial success with Hammers in my 243

 

[flyright]

Try some RL 16 - if you can find it. That has outperformed H4350 and RL 17 in a few rifles I've seen. Just my .02...

 

[Neil McCauley]

Try some RL 16 - if you can find it. That has outperformed H4350 and RL 17 in a few rifles I've seen. Just my .02...

That powder may be a unicorn lol. Been keeping my eye out for it just haven't gotten my greasy mits on any.

 

[DangerRanger]

That powder may be a unicorn lol. Been keeping my eye out for it just haven't gotten my greasy mits on any.

If you have a bass pro they will ship to your store no hazmat.
Just did that with h4895 and it took about ~2 weeks

 

[Neil McCauley]

If you have a bass pro they will ship to your store no hazmat.
Just did that with h4895 and it took about ~2 weeks

Not. Abad idea. Bass Pro is about an hour and a half away but it could be done...

 

[swarrick]

I am the friend in question and short of growing a man bun and torching my diesel truck for a Prius I have tried almost everything to get these damn monos to shoot. So far the best I have seen has been with 120gmx 41.5 H4350 and .050 off the lands.

 

[swarrick]

Here are the two best groups from today. Just not consistent.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Hammer bullets, seriously. They're very accurate in every rifle I've tried them in and they're hands down the best mono hunting bullet available. Give them a call, the owners name is Steve . He's a great guy and stands by his products , if you try his bullets and don't like them he'll buy them back . If they had a bigger manufacturing platform and better marketing they'd put Barnes out of business.

 

[Hawk in WY]

I run Barnes LRX in several 6.5 CM rifles.

I tested seating depth with the best combination of powder and velocity.

All liked .040 jump.

All liked RL-26.

Good luck

 

[flyright]

RL 16 - unicorn horn dust
RL 26 - unicorn sack dust
?

 

[Tac Beard]

OP- have you done a deep barrel clean? In my experience the copper bullets shoot best when they’re launched from a freshly-cleaned barrel, or at least one that hasn’t been shooting a wide variety of bullets in it. Seems like different projectiles foul the barrel in different ways.

Deep clean the barrel using copper solvent, start with a proven load using the 127 LRX from the Barnes website, and don’t put anything else through the barrel until you find the accuracy you want.

 

[Neil McCauley]

Yep, yep and yep. Did the exact recipe you suggested. Ran nothing but Barnes lrx afterwards in attempts to build a load. Still nothing that would result in anything I would consider accurate.

 

[Tac Beard]

The 120 TTSX and TSX have both been very accurate and forgiving for me, maybe they’re worth a try. Have you tried Ramshot Hunter? I’ve seen great velocities and accuracy from it.

It sure is frustrating when you have a good shooting rifle that won’t shoot the bullets you have to use. Still, I’ve never before seen Barnes bullets give such a headache as you’re dealing with.

 

[Neil McCauley]

The 120 TTSX and TSX have both been very accurate and forgiving for me, maybe they’re worth a try. Have you tried Ramshot Hunter? I’ve seen great velocities and accuracy from it.

It sure is frustrating when you have a good shooting rifle that won’t shoot the bullets you have to use. Still, I’ve never before seen Barnes bullets give such a headache as you’re dealing with.

I think that's the ticket
We may try that here on the next go around. We recently acquired some bullets and will give them a try. Will definitely keep you posted.

 

[escopeta2020]

I have been running the Barns 80Grain TTSX bullet in my older factory Shilen .243 win. sporter rifle from the eighties. It loves them but have to run hard. Mine likes 47Gns of 4350, Lapua brass, CCI BR2 primers. They run over 3500FPS with single digit SD. in 90 degree weather. .050" jump. Rifle dosn't like less. Hard on brass, yes, but so far have fired them 4 times with no issues. Consistent under 1/2" MOA for 3 shots. I worked up to this and rifle didn't settle down until I got there.

 

[Sykes]

I'll also recommend Hammer Bullets. Very easy to find a load for. Load up in 1 gr increments until you hit pressure then back off a grain and shoot a group. I've had great success with them in my 280AI and 300 wsm. Any questions and they are happy to help you out on the phone

 

[escopeta2020]

Thanks will give them a try, also may try in my Tango 51 .308.

 

[Alphabet]

You might want to try Cutting Edge Bullets also, they are a solid brass or copper design. 90% of their line up are intended for hunting purposes , their terminal performance is the best i've seen. they have a flat base 100 gr .308 bullet that will turn anything under 100lbs into buzzard food fast and their 265gr .458 out of a SOCOM will knock a 300lb pig into stupid like yesterday. If you want to reach out and touch something anything in their lazer line will do the job(not all lazers will mag feed but some will) They even have a selection for muzzleloaders!

 

[swarrick]

UPDATE.... So it’s been almost a YEAR since this was posted and I am still have issues. I have tried everything posted above 10 times over and still can barely get 1.25 moa out of this rifle with monos. I have switched to the Lehigh 130gr Controlled Chaos bullets as of now they give me the most consistency at 1.25moa and the occasional moa group. For a hunting rifle this will do though I would like more. I am pushing this with 41.5gr of H4350 @2830 fps. I still haven’t tried the Hammer Hunters but those are on the list whenever I can get some.

 

[MTB doc]

UPDATE.... So it’s been almost a YEAR since this was posted and I am still have issues. I have tried everything posted above 10 times over and still can barely get 1.25 moa out of this rifle with monos. I have switched to the Lehigh 130gr Controlled Chaos bullets as of now they give me the most consistency at 1.25moa and the occasional moa group. For a hunting rifle this will do though I would like more. I am pushing this with 41.5gr of H4350 @2830 fps. I still haven’t tried the Hammer Hunters but those are on the list whenever I can get some.

Have you made contact with Josh at Patriot Valley Arms regarding his monolithics?

 

[NovaHunter]

Have you made contact with Josh at Patriot Valley Arms regarding his monolithics?

I've got 50 of josh's match monolithics. Haven't had a chance to test them yet though

 

[USABAKER]

My buddy and I run Barnes 129gr LRX using Hybrid 100V in our .270 WIN’s and group sub-MOA pretty much same with the TTSX on our factory 26” 1:10 barrels.

 

[KnowNothing256]

No lie man, it honestly sounds like you’ve put enough bullets down that tube to buy a new one. Obviously that money is spent, but I know some guys who just won’t put time into a gun they can’t convince to play ball. You know you have no major defects with the setup since you can get good groups with lead ammo, you might just wanna try a new barrel.

@Deep South Tactical does aftermarket Bergara stuff now, or you can go the factory rebarrel+Cerakote route for $500.

Sorry it’s been so discouraging, but nothing like a new tube to start fresh. Godspeed, whatever route you choose.

 

[Bmghunter]

UPDATE.... So it’s been almost a YEAR since this was posted and I am still have issues. I have tried everything posted above 10 times over and still can barely get 1.25 moa out of this rifle with monos. I have switched to the Lehigh 130gr Controlled Chaos bullets as of now they give me the most consistency at 1.25moa and the occasional moa group. For a hunting rifle this will do though I would like more. I am pushing this with 41.5gr of H4350 @2830 fps. I still haven’t tried the Hammer Hunters but those are on the list whenever I can get some.

I have been down this journey also and found that it's the bullets problem. Hammer bullets was so far the only one that worked well, and it was really good. CEB was ok. GMX sucked. TTSX in factory load sucked. Haven't tried the others mentioned but Hammer bullets is the winner on my end.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Once upon a time a farmer got mad at his neighbor and seeded his neighbor’s fields with Johnson grass. Well next spring the neighbors cotton field was wrapped up in Johnson grass. (This was before the days of Roundup ready cotton). The farmer with the Johnson grass wrote the department of agriculture asking what to do about the johnson grass. The Department wrote back

”Sell Farm, Move Away”

the point of this little allegory. Sell that gun and get one that will shoot the bullets you want to shoot. Life is too short, too battle a tool that does not work.

 

[hesp]

Just like you , I have a 6.5 with 1/8 twist that refused to shoot any Banes or Hornady GMX bullet. Went to a 121gr Hammer Hunter & just like magic 1/2' groups. Seated .020 off the lands , easy .

 

[Slides]

Pretty sure you need more twist out on a non magnum calibre to even attemptto stabilise a decentweight mono, there is a reason everyone runs faster twist barrels and or pushes pressure limits for higher velocity (and bullet spin) to get them to work. I imagine with the time and money you have already spent you could easily have had a new barrel spun up and chambered with brake or can or both.

 

[Texasflyer]

I shoot the barnes tsx in 243, they are hunting bullets, i watched their commercial on the youtubes, i seem to remember them saying they wont be the most accurate rounds. 1 moa is about as good as it got for me after the 3rd firing on my cases. The way i took it is if they are in a killzone then thats pretty good.... they slay coyotes. But they are far from target ammo. Are you weighing your bullets and grouping them?

 

[hesp]

My 6.5 rifles are mostly 1/8 twist with a couple 1/9. The individual harmonics of a Bbl makes a difference,. My 1/8 twist rifles that shoot the Barnes well are consistently around 1/2" or very close to it. I have one 1/9 twist 6.5 that shoots the Barnes TSX 120gr between 1/2" & 3/4" consistently. As I stated before . My one 6.5 that refused to shoot the Barnes or GMX accurately shoots the Hammer Hunter 6.5 121 gr into amazing 1/2" three shot groups. For a hunting rifle I don't shot more than 3 shot groups. As another thought I have two Savage stainless in 260 Rem., & both of these rifles shot the Barnes 120gr TSX/TTSX into tiny groups with the exact same load & over all loaded length. Maybe that's a coincidence, mayne not.

 

[swarrick]

My buddy and I run Barnes 129gr LRX using Hybrid 100V in our .270 WIN’s and group sub-MOA pretty much same with the TTSX on our factory 26” 1:10 barrels.

Yes my buddy shoots a 270 with the 129s and it shoots great! Unfortunately my CM doesn’t..

 

[Ledzep]

Solids like the Barnes hunting bullets and Hornady GMX do not require faster twists. They're lighter weight but similar length vs. cup&core to achieve similar SGs. Solids in general are much more sensitive to bore diameter variations, though. It takes more pressure to make the solids obturate and seal in the bore, and tight/loose spots (most common in hammer forged barrels) allow all sorts of bad stuff to happen that wrecks accuracy. You'll see bullets wad up in one barrel and shoot as bad as 3-4 MOA if not a little worse in another.

 

[CNC-Dude]

Once upon a time a farmer got mad at his neighbor and seeded his neighbor’s fields with Johnson grass. Well next spring the neighbors cotton field was wrapped up in Johnson grass. (This was before the days of Roundup ready cotton). The farmer with the Johnson grass wrote the department of agriculture asking what to do about the johnson grass. The Department wrote back

”Sell Farm, Move Away”

the point of this little allegory. Sell that gun and get one that will shoot the bullets you want to shoot. Life is too short, too battle a tool that does not work.

The way that the state of California is shaped, you could probably drive an hour and be in another state. Go hunting in one of those border states where you dont have to use non-leaded bullets....

 

[KnowNothing256]

The way that the state of California is shaped, you could probably drive an hour and be in another state. Go hunting in one of those border states where you dont have to use non-leaded bullets....

Spoken like a true California public land hunter haha

 

[CNC-Dude]

I work with a lot of guys that drive over 6 hours to hunt ducks. Just wondering if he'd considered the option of just going somewhere else to hunt yet. No, I live in the free state of Georgia.....

 

[KnowNothing256]

Nah, I figured you lived elsewhere, but there's so much game in CA it's hard to justify heading elsewhere in a lot of cases. I never truly appreciated the outdoors until I moved to the West Coast with all the public land out here, makes me sad to think of my native state of Texas and all that land snapped up and walled off behind fences and trespass law.